Marxist sects

[Widerstand]

Left Communists, Maoists, Stalinists, Marxist Leninists, Trotskyists, Luxemburgists, Council Communists (I think I caught all the major tendencies here?). Can someone sum up their major ideological differences to me? Or recommend some Literature that explains their differences - as in, something with information on a bunch of Marxist tendencies and how they differ from each other; I don't have time to read lot's of primary literature of a lot of tendencies, sadly.

Thanks :)

edit: also, what exactly, and how popular is Cultural Marxism? I know that Dutschke, according to Wikipedia, had some Cultural Marxist views. Reading the Wikipedia page on it, it seems like a somewhat Marxist version of Lifestylism/Individual Anarchism?

[fa2991]

Don't forget Hoxhaism, Titoism, Insurrectionary Marxism, Eurocommunism, Third Worldism, Deleonism, Structural Marxism, Neo-Marxism, Cultural Marxism, Juche, Castroism, Autonomist Marxism, Analytical Marxism, Marxist Humanism, Liberation Theology... :p

[Widerstand]

Don't forget Hoxhaism, Titoism, Insurrectionary Marxism, Eurocommunism, Third Worldism, Deleonism, Structural Marxism, Neo-Marxism, Cultural Marxism, Juche, Castroism, Autonomist Marxism, Analytical Marxism, Marxist Humanism, Liberation Theology... :p

I had Cultural Marxism! But yeah, those seem interesting too. Especially Autonomist Marxism. I'm somewhat familiar with the various Autonomous Antifa, but, yeah.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Most of these groups basically differentiate themselves as to how they view the Russian Revolution and the later Soviet Union.

Marxist-Leninists; Not a hard and fast "tendency exactly. MLs more or less accept the interpretation of Marx by Stalin and the system associated with and created under Stalin. MLs are critical of Stalin to various extents and generally see this system as having been sabotaged by "anti-revisionists". Called "Stalinists" by Trotskyists, anarchists, and others.
In practical politics MLs usually favor a two stage theory of revolution.

Hoxhaism-an anti-revisionist form of MLism, followers of Enver Hoxha.

Maoists-followers of Mao Zedong. Could be considered a form of MLism. Maoists uphold the possibility of creating communism though Third World peasant based organizations and strategies.Believe in a stage theory of revolution "People's Democratic Dictatorship" and "Bloc of 4 Classes" , allying with "progressive" elements of the local bourgeois.

Trotskyists-believe the Russian Revolution was distorted, betrayed, and destroyed by a parasitic bureaucratic class represented by Stalin. Believe in the Theory of Permanent Revolution associated w/Trotsky, derived from ideas of Marx, Parvus and others. Advocate the need for an independent role for the working class, not allying with bourgeois forces. Believe in a "United Front" strategy as opposed to the Stalinist "Popular Front". Trots are fiercely critical of the Stalinist purges and see the purges as the destruction of the original revolutionary Bolshevik Party and its replacement by the Stalinist nomenklatura.

Council communists; A form of left communism popular in the Netherlands and Germany. Had an intense rivalry with the Italian left communists. Associated with Pannekoek and Gorter. Otherwise I don't know much about them.

Left communists-followers of both council, communists and Amadeo Bordiga. The ICC is the biggest group. Some similarities to Trotskyism, feel the Revolution degenerated earlier than Trots do. Partially accept Lenin. Critical of the "statism" of most communist movements. LCs generally feel most other let tendencies are the "left wing of capital" but they will work with anarchists. Don't belief in electoral politics and critical of union work. Also critical of liberal anti-fascism, generally seeing fascism as another form of capitalism.

Luxemburgists-Followers of Rosa Luxemburg. a form of LCism. Believe in a more spontaneous role of the working class, RL also believed in a form of ongoing "primitive capital accumulation" and ha a theory of imperialism different from Lenin.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I think Cultural Marxism usually refers to the Frankfurt School and "Western Marxism". Its generally used by people on the far right to bash "multiculturalism", lgbt rights, etc.

[Steve_j]

Insurrectionary Marxism......
?????

Does this exist? Can you link any texts?

[fionntan]

You took the words out of my mouth stevie..

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Don't forget Hoxhaism, Titoism, Insurrectionary Marxism, Eurocommunism, Third Worldism, Deleonism, Structural Marxism, Neo-Marxism, Cultural Marxism, Juche, Castroism, Autonomist Marxism, Analytical Marxism, Marxist Humanism, Liberation Theology... :p

You're not making this any easier. Sheesh....
Okay, my understanding...

Hoxhaism-followers of Enver Hoxha, leader of Albania. a form of anti-revisionist MLs. Ciritical of the Soviet Union and China but different than Trotskyism. Ask Ismail or Prairie Fire.

Eurocommunism; first popular in Italy within the CPI. Followed a distorted version of Gramsci and associated with Ernesto Berlinguer. Believed class struggle is not possible at this stage and favored a sort of "cultural struggle". Leaned towards identity politics. Eurocommunism became popular in parties like the original CPGB which led those parties to dissolve themselves. Essentially a form of post-modernism.

Jurche; the ideology of North Korea or the DPRK. Believes in a form of humanism but also national self reliance and Korean nationalism. Its not known whether Jurche is a "real" lived ideology or verbal window dressing.

Liberation Theology; various mixtures of Marxism and Christianity, popular in Latin America. Orginated by Gustavo Gutteriez, developed w/in the left wing of the Catholic church. There are a few Protestant LT thinkers. LT was more or less suppressed by the last 2 popes.

Deleonism. Followers of Daniel DeLeon, leader of the SLP in the US, early 1900s. DeLeon had interesting ideas but he was overly sectarian, blew chances for alliances with the labor movement.The SLP was originally a national party, became a NY sect. That's all I know about this.

Autonomist Marxism; A type of Marxism originating in and most popular in Italy in the 70s. Called operaismo or "workerism". Influenced by anarchism, believes the working class should be independent of parties, unions and bourgeois politics. Antonio Negri, author of "Empire" is the most famous people to come out of this tradition.

Humanist Marxism. Originated by Raya Dunskayava, originally a follower (and secretary of) Trotsky.Adds humanist ideas to Marxism. Very "Hegelian". Associated with "Notes and Letters" and Hobgoblin

http://www.thehobgoblin.co.uk/

That's enough. My fingers hurt.

[fionntan]

Insurrectionary Marxism..????

[Roach]

Lenina, you forgot Titoism. :D

Titoism-Based on Tito's ideas of ''workers self-management'' and his ''non-aligned movement'', heavilly criticised by almost all other tendencies as ''fake communism'' (expecially hoxhaists like myself).It's only remanent's are some nostalgic organizations on former Yugoslavia.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

I find DeLeonism interesting. It's one of the few branches that developed before the Russian Revolution, whereas most other branches were developed from views of the Revolution and the events that followed thereafter.

I don't know if it should really be it's own sect or not, considering a lot of Marxists have adopted environmentalist/green ideas, but there's also Eco-socialism (a.k.a. "green socialism" and "socialist ecology")

[Jolly Red Giant]

Given that the title of the thread is 'Marxist sects' - the only sect that really comes to mind was Healy's WRP.

[Widerstand]

Given that the title of the thread is 'Marxist sects' - the only sect that really comes to mind was Healy's WRP.

lololo....ok.

[graymouser]

Council communists; A form of left communism popular in the Netherlands and Germany. Had an intense rivalry with the Italian left communists. Associated with Pannekoek and Gorter. Otherwise I don't know much about them.
Ever read Left-Wing Communism? Gorter and Pannekoek were basically on the other side of the polemic: no cooperation with bourgeois trade unions, no work in bourgeois parliaments, no tactical voting for social democratic parties. They stressed the immediate revolutionary need for total independence and red unions during the German revolution from 1918-1923. Afterward became pretty much a tiny anti-Leninist current that didn't really persist in any organized form past World War II. Some anti-Leninist Marxists today identify with the Council Communists.


Deleonism. Followers of Daniel DeLeon, leader of the SLP in the US, early 1900s. DeLeon had interesting ideas but he was overly sectarian, blew chances for alliances with the labor movement.The SLP was originally a national party, became a NY sect. That's all I know about this.
De Leonism is based on the combination of two ideas. One: the Socialist Industrial Union is formed before the revolution. This is an explicitly socialist union, linked to the SLP, that workers would form. It would not fight for immediate reforms but rather educate the workers in Marxism. Two: the revolution would take the form of the election of a socialist congress, which would immediately dissolve itself in favor of the SIUs. Suffice it to say that the SLP is no longer functional, and there are no SIUs.

[9]

Humanist Marxism. Originated by Raya Dunskayava, originally a follower (and secretary of) Trotsky.Adds humanist ideas to Marxism. Very "Hegelian". Associated with "Notes and Letters" and Hobgoblin

It is actually called "News and Letters (http://newsandletters.org/commitees.htm)", rather than Notes, btw.

[fa2991]

?????

Does this exist? Can you link any texts?

I believe so, but I don't have any links for ya. I just listed all those out because I find it hilarious how many kinds of Marxism there are. :D

I'm not even sure what a couple of them are. :p

[Widerstand]

Aight thanks folks! Any websites/books that have like short descriptions of the various tendencies? Or maybe just a history of Marxist thought?

[9]

Aight thanks folks! Any websites/books that have like short descriptions of the various tendencies? Or maybe just a history of Marxist thought?

This has some things: http://marxists.org/subject/index.htm

Scroll down to where it lists the "Currents of Communism" (almost half way down the page)

[fa2991]

Aight thanks folks! Any websites/books that have like short descriptions of the various tendencies? Or maybe just a history of Marxist thought?

Leszek Kolakowski's "Main Currents of Marxism" covers EVERYTHING. It's an anti-Marxist book, though, so take the contents with a grain of salt.

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

Leszek Kolakowski's "Main Currents of Marxism" covers EVERYTHING. It's an anti-Marxist book, though, so take the contents with a grain of salt.

The left communists and council communists are largely absent from it (there's no mention of Pannekoek at all), and the treatment of Trotsky's ideas is very brief and shallow in comparison to the other parts of Kolakowski's analysis of the "main currents." Decent stuff otherwise.

[robbo203]

Most of these groups basically differentiate themselves as to how they view the Russian Revolution and the later Soviet Union.

Marxist-Leninists; Not a hard and fast "tendency exactly. MLs more or less accept the interpretation of Marx by Stalin and the system associated with and created under Stalin. MLs are critical of Stalin to various extents and generally see this system as having been sabotaged by "anti-revisionists". Called "Stalinists" by Trotskyists, anarchists, and others.
In practical politics MLs usually favor a two stage theory of revolution.

Hoxhaism-an anti-revisionist form of MLism, followers of Enver Hoxha.

Maoists-followers of Mao Zedong. Could be considered a form of MLism. Maoists uphold the possibility of creating communism though Third World peasant based organizations and strategies.Believe in a stage theory of revolution "People's Democratic Dictatorship" and "Bloc of 4 Classes" , allying with "progressive" elements of the local bourgeois.

Trotskyists-believe the Russian Revolution was distorted, betrayed, and destroyed by a parasitic bureaucratic class represented by Stalin. Believe in the Theory of Permanent Revolution associated w/Trotsky, derived from ideas of Marx, Parvus and others. Advocate the need for an independent role for the working class, not allying with bourgeois forces. Believe in a "United Front" strategy as opposed to the Stalinist "Popular Front". Trots are fiercely critical of the Stalinist purges and see the purges as the destruction of the original revolutionary Bolshevik Party and its replacement by the Stalinist nomenklatura.

Council communists; A form of left communism popular in the Netherlands and Germany. Had an intense rivalry with the Italian left communists. Associated with Pannekoek and Gorter. Otherwise I don't know much about them.

Left communists-followers of both council, communists and Amadeo Bordiga. The ICC is the biggest group. Some similarities to Trotskyism, feel the Revolution degenerated earlier than Trots do. Partially accept Lenin. Critical of the "statism" of most communist movements. LCs generally feel most other let tendencies are the "left wing of capital" but they will work with anarchists. Don't belief in electoral politics and critical of union work. Also critical of liberal anti-fascism, generally seeing fascism as another form of capitalism.

Luxemburgists-Followers of Rosa Luxemburg. a form of LCism. Believe in a more spontaneous role of the working class, RL also believed in a form of ongoing "primitive capital accumulation" and ha a theory of imperialism different from Lenin.


I think you have overlooked the impossibilist school or tendency centred on organisations like the Socialist Party of Great Britain and the the De Leonist SLP. "Impossibilism" was an ironic reaction to the "possibilism" or reformist tendencies in the French workers movement in the late 19th century. The SPGB was probably the first political organisation in the world to declare that the Bolshevik Revolution was not a socialist revolution and could not be becuase the conditions for such a revolution were wholly lacking. It is arguably the most marxist organisation of them all. See their website www.worldsocialism.org (http://www.worldsocialism.org)

[Widerstand]

Leszek Kolakowski's "Main Currents of Marxism" covers EVERYTHING. It's an anti-Marxist book, though, so take the contents with a grain of salt.

How critical is it, and in what way? Is this guy arguing from a cappie point of view? Twisting some facts/ideologies?

[Die Rote Fahne]

Feel free to add/correct if i'm wrong.

Shactmanism - is a critical term applied to the form of Marxism associated with Max Shactman. It has two major components: a bureaucratic collectivist analysis of the Soviet Union and a "third camp" approach to world politics. Shachtmanites believe that the Stalinist rulers of Communist countries are a new ruling class, distinct from the workers and rejects Trotsky's description of Stalinist Russia as being a "degenerated workers state". Max Shachtman described the Soviet Union as a "bureaucratic collectivist" society.

Although Shachtmanism is usually described as a form of Trotskyism, both Trotsky and Shachtman were careful to not describe Shachtman's view as Trotskyist.

[AK]

Third Worldism ... Juche
Implying MTW and Juche are Marxist ideologies.

[StoneFrog]

Ever read Left-Wing Communism? Gorter and Pannekoek were basically on the other side of the polemic: no cooperation with bourgeois trade unions, no work in bourgeois parliaments, no tactical voting for social democratic parties. They stressed the immediate revolutionary need for total independence and red unions during the German revolution from 1918-1923. Afterward became pretty much a tiny anti-Leninist current that didn't really persist in any organized form past World War II. Some anti-Leninist Marxists today identify with the Council Communists.


I think the US had a couple of Council Communist groups during the 70s or 80s can't remembers. But ended up dying out again.

I wouldn't call myself an ant-Leninist and i call myself a Council Communist, i admire him and some of his theories, just his analysis on west europe was way of the mark imo. He underestimated the bourgeoisie countries, failing to see how they would unite against communism, instead of being able to exploit weaknesses like he did in Russia.

Council Communist in my interpretation is the notion of the people becoming the vanguard and forming a body in which stand directly opposite the bourgeoisie apparatuses of rule. In the same way as the early soviets did, create a split in power against the local and regional government. Once the water spills over the sides, it leads to the revolution, with an already strong base of pure worker structures created by workers and not parties. These worker structures represented in workplace and community councils, in a centralized council structure made up of council delegates recallable at anytime by their represented council.

The parties role is merely to provide propaganda and solid theory, consisting mainly of theorists, to encourage the workers to build structures of their own.

Of course all this is debatable since the council communist tendency went through changes throughout its time, and some of them denounced all forms of organization like the party in the end. So modern day Council Communists have to look at which areas are most applicable to these time, i still feel that few changes have to be made to the tendency. But i think all Council Commies denouce the use of unions and any form of bourgeoisie worker bodies, for they misdirect the workers efforts away from what is needed.

[Q]

Given that the title of the thread is 'Marxist sects' - the only sect that really comes to mind was Healy's WRP.

Nah, that was actually a full blown cult. Sects - that is a group that has a clear interest in its existence for its own sake and has defined rules and principles that are designed to make union with other groups impossible - on the other hand are pretty much omnipresent of the far-left, sadly.

[9]

Feel free to add/correct if i'm wrong.

Shactmanism - is a critical term applied to the form of Marxism associated with Max Shactman. It has two major components: a bureaucratic collectivist analysis of the Soviet Union and a "third camp" approach to world politics. Shachtmanites believe that the Stalinist rulers of Communist countries are a new ruling class, distinct from the workers and rejects Trotsky's description of Stalinist Russia as being a "degenerated workers state". Max Shachtman described the Soviet Union as a "bureaucratic collectivist" society.

Tbh, I don't think this is particularly useful here since there is no living current that identifies as "Shachtmanist". As far as I'm aware there also isn't any organization around today that has a "bureaucratic collectivist" analysis of the Soviet Union (although it is possible I am wrong on this point, but I don't think so). All of the presently-existing 'third camp' Trotskyist groups that I'm familiar with have some version of a 'state capitalist' analysis (e.g. Cliffite, Johnson-Forest, LRP etc.). Shachtman ended up openly taking the side of his own ruling class (i.e. the "first camp") anyway.

[graymouser]

Tbh, I don't think this is particularly useful here since there is no living current that identifies as "Shachtmanist". As far as I'm aware there also isn't any organization around today that has a "bureaucratic collectivist" analysis of the Soviet Union (although it is possible I am wrong on this point, but I don't think so). All of the presently-existing 'third camp' Trotskyist groups that I'm familiar with have some version of a 'state capitalist' analysis (e.g. Cliffite, Johnson-Forest, LRP etc.). Shachtman ended up openly taking the side of his own ruling class (i.e. the "first camp") anyway.
You are actually off on this point - the Alliance for Workers Liberty, a British sect best known for its Zionism, has embraced wholeheartedly the "bureaucratic collectivist" analysis. Also, a number of people in Solidarity and around the magazine New Politics identify as left-Shachtmanites and hold to much the same analysis. Solidarity member Kim Moody went into the AWL when he moved to England.

Also, the ISO has a certain amount of identification with left-Shachtmanism, mainly through Hal Draper who was the pre-eminent writer among that trend and wrote its defining essay, "Two Souls of Socialism," as well as the magisterial study Karl Marx's Theory of Revolution.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Nah, that was actually a full blown cult. Sects - that is a group that has a clear interest in its existence for its own sake and has defined rules and principles that are designed to make union with other groups impossible - on the other hand are pretty much omnipresent of the far-left, sadly.
Come on Q - I was trying to be diplomatic :cool: