Thatcher

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I'm locked in an argument with some right-wing Thatcherite nutjob, who is trying to say that the Unions were unpopular with ordinary workers during the 1980s and blame the Unions heads for the parlous state of those left behind by the decline of manufacturing.

Could somebody give me some facts/evidence that points to the support of the workers for the Unions at the time, and also some evidence (in fact form, really) that corroborates the link between Thatcher's economic policies and economic disaster, particularly in the manufacturing sector.

[PoliticalNightmare]

I'm locked in an argument with some right-wing Thatcherite nutjob, who is trying to say that the Unions were unpopular with ordinary workers during the 1980s and blame the Unions heads for the parlous state of those left behind by the decline of manufacturing.

Could somebody give me some facts/evidence that points to the support of the workers for the Unions at the time, and also some evidence (in fact form, really) that corroborates the link between Thatcher's economic policies and economic disaster, particularly in the manufacturing sector.

To be fair a lot of ordinary workers just wanted to end all of the strikes and just return to their old lifestyles but having said that Thatcher could have easily just stopped being so damn stubborn given the unions what they wanted which was a decent minimum wage, etc. and everything would have been much simpler. She also refused to stop trade links with South Africa at a time of apartheid and exported coal from there to our own country to make up for the mining strikes.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

How many of the workers stayed out on strike and for how long?

Wasn't it something like just over 50% of miners came out with the Unions initially?

Although I know the general story of the 1980s, i'm not all too familiar with the facts of the thing.

[welshexile1963]

Read the book "The Enemy Within" to see how evil that ***** was in her attack on the NUM, I will dance in the street the day that vile thing dies! Scargill was right!

[Svoboda]

I'm locked in an argument with some right-wing Thatcherite nutjob, who is trying to say that the Unions were unpopular with ordinary workers during the 1980s and blame the Unions heads for the parlous state of those left behind by the decline of manufacturing.

Could somebody give me some facts/evidence that points to the support of the workers for the Unions at the time, and also some evidence (in fact form, really) that corroborates the link between Thatcher's economic policies and economic disaster, particularly in the manufacturing sector.
The unions really were in large corrupt, because they didn't function with the actual control of the workers but instead by bunch hierarchical union bosses who just wanted kick backs. The only confrontation that Thatcher had with unions that I know enough about was the coal miner strike, and in that case the coal miners were certainly in the wrong. The coal miners were incredibly unproductive and inefficient in the old and tired out mines, and their coal was much expensive then coal from the US and other places, so the state had complete control of the mining and the coal was making absolutely no profit for them, so the state wanted to end it and the miners(understandably really) resisted, and now Britain produces hardly any coal and the regions that used to be mining towns back before the strike are now economically devastated.

[Land Of Upright Men]

She is wanted for the murders of

Francis Hughes(25)

Raymond McCreesh(24)

Patsy O'Hara(23)

Joe McDonnell(30)

Martin Hurson(29)

Kevin Lynch(25)

Kieran Doherty(25)

Thomas McElwee(23)

Michael Devine(27)

Bobby Sands(26)


Kill thatcher, for the miners, for the 10 brave men, and for the good of humanity

[durhamleft]

Read the book "The Enemy Within" to see how evil that ***** was in her attack on the NUM, I will dance in the street the day that vile thing dies! Scargill was right!

Don't get me wrong, I fucking hate Thatcher, but Scargill was a Stalinist who betrayed the miner's solidarity and used it to try and bring down Thatcher... and resulted in family members of mine barely being able to eat, for a strike that should have been waited for.

[costello1977]

She is wanted for the murders of

Francis Hughes(25)

Raymond McCreesh(24)

Patsy O'Hara(23)

Joe McDonnell(30)

Martin Hurson(29)

Kevin Lynch(25)

Kieran Doherty(25)

Thomas McElwee(23)

Michael Devine(27)

Bobby Sands(26)


Kill thatcher, for the miners, for the 10 brave men, and for the good of humanity

We're having a street party up our way when that wh*** dies!

READ THE ROLL OF HONOUR FOR IRELANDS BRAVEST MEN,
WE MUST BE UNITED, IN MEMORY OF THE TEN,
THATCHER YOUR A MONSTER, DON'T THINK THAT YOU HAVE WON,
WE WILL NEVER BE DEFEATED, WHILE IRELAND HAS SUCH SONS!

[9]

[snip], for the miners, for the 10 brave men, and for the good of humanity

This is probably not the smartest thing to say on an internet forum that the police in the UK (and almost certainly elsewhere) have been known to monitor.

[Catillina]

We're having a street party up our way when that wh*** dies!

READ THE ROLL OF HONOUR FOR IRELANDS BRAVEST MEN,
WE MUST BE UNITED, IN MEMORY OF THE TEN,
THATCHER YOUR A MONSTER, DON'T THINK THAT YOU HAVE WON,
WE WILL NEVER BE DEFEATED, WHILE IRELAND HAS SUCH SONS!


oh yeah, i'm saving up a cuban cigar for that day.

[costello1977]

oh yeah, i'm saving up a cuban cigar for that day.

I swear to god, theres a party organised in Strabane, and parts of Belfast!

[ZeroNowhere]

Kill thatcher, for the miners, for the 10 brave men, and for the good of humanity
I'm fairly sure that killing Thatcher wouldn't be an important contribution to the good of mankind, or really accomplish much of importance in general.

[empiredestoryer]

as micky jager and bowie sang THERE WILL BE PEOPLE DANCING IN THE STREET when that hag dies which will be very sortly with a bit of luck

[durhamleft]

I'm fairly sure that killing Thatcher wouldn't be an important contribution to the good of mankind, or really accomplish much of importance in general.

Though that argument is correct with her now, when one considers Osbourne it starts to run into difficulty...

[Red Commissar]

Sure, the unions may've been obtrusive and caused problems, but what did Thatcher offer in return to workers?

It's common for apologists of Thatcher to fall back on the argument that the unions were unpopular anyways. Fine- but does that excuse what she did afterwards? It wasn't like she gave workers a "fair shake" so to speak, but severely damaged the labor movement. Did the livliehood of workers improve? Not by a long shot; it was part of their economic policy to scatter and keep workers down so that others could benefit because of some hackneyed notion that they "work harder".

[RebelDog]

On the days after the IRA Brighton attempt to kill Thatcher the miners on the picket lines could be heard chanting to the police: "MAGGIE MAGGIE MAGGIE, BOOM BOOM BOOM." Classic!

[Cencus]

The unions really were in large corrupt, because they didn't function with the actual control of the workers but instead by bunch hierarchical union bosses who just wanted kick backs. The only confrontation that Thatcher had with unions that I know enough about was the coal miner strike, and in that case the coal miners were certainly in the wrong. The coal miners were incredibly unproductive and inefficient in the old and tired out mines, and their coal was much expensive then coal from the US and other places, so the state had complete control of the mining and the coal was making absolutely no profit for them, so the state wanted to end it and the miners(understandably really) resisted, and now Britain produces hardly any coal and the regions that used to be mining towns back before the strike are now economically devastated.


Wow as someone who grew up during that time in the U.K. I have to say that statement bears absolutely no relation to my memory.

1. There is no large long term history of organised corruption in the U.K. trades unions (they're crap but that's a different matter)

2. Several large industries were nationalised at the end of WW2.

3. The Government had started to denationalise some of the industries. A process involving mass shutdowns.

4. From memory. U.K. deep mine coal production was actually(or as efficient as) more efficient than German or U.S. coal but the U.K Government a/was ideologicly opposed to subsidising b/could not afford the subsidy

5.Ian MacGregor, a Canadian bussnesman was brought it to run the NCB (National Coal Board). He had just downsized Brittish Steel, so wasn't exactly welcome with open arms by the mine workers.

6. A document was leaked/fed to the head on the miners union listing pits to be shut - BANG - one of the longest and most bitter industrial disputes in Brittish history.

7. A few years after the strike the government closed every coal mine no matter it's efficiency if the coal it provided did not got straight into the electricity generating contract, including what was claimed to be at the time the most modern efficient coke mine in the EU/world (delete as appropriate)

[welshexile1963]

Don't get me wrong, I fucking hate Thatcher, but Scargill was a Stalinist who betrayed the miner's solidarity and used it to try and bring down Thatcher... and resulted in family members of mine barely being able to eat, for a strike that should have been waited for.


I am sorry but I disagree with you, you have fallen in to the trap of the right wing history writers, read the book I suggested and you will see how/why the strike was right and Scargill was a good leader.

[costello1977]

On the days after the IRA Brighton attempt to kill Thatcher the miners on the picket lines could be heard chanting to the police: "MAGGIE MAGGIE MAGGIE, BOOM BOOM BOOM." Classic!

I was speaking to the man that was tried for the bombing on wednesday. Great man that he is!

[Svoboda]

Wow as someone who grew up during that time in the U.K. I have to say that statement bears absolutely no relation to my memory.

1. There is no large long term history of organised corruption in the U.K. trades unions (they're crap but that's a different matter)

2. Several large industries were nationalised at the end of WW2.

3. The Government had started to denationalise some of the industries. A process involving mass shutdowns.

4. From memory. U.K. deep mine coal production was actually(or as efficient as) more efficient than German or U.S. coal but the U.K Government a/was ideologicly opposed to subsidising b/could not afford the subsidy

5.Ian MacGregor, a Canadian bussnesman was brought it to run the NCB (National Coal Board). He had just downsized Brittish Steel, so wasn't exactly welcome with open arms by the mine workers.

6. A document was leaked/fed to the head on the miners union listing pits to be shut - BANG - one of the longest and most bitter industrial disputes in Brittish history.

7. A few years after the strike the government closed every coal mine no matter it's efficiency if the coal it provided did not got straight into the electricity generating contract, including what was claimed to be at the time the most modern efficient coke mine in the EU/world (delete as appropriate)
If the coal mine was efficient why are there practically no coal miners in the UK today, I sure Capitalist would have jumped all over that shit if they were more efficient than the US or Germany.

[Cencus]

If the coal mine was efficient why are there practically no coal miners in the UK today, I sure Capitalist would have jumped all over that shit if they were more efficient than the US or Germany.
I'm not saying U.K. coal was an efficient cost effective industry just that it was not the least efficient out there but that Thatcher government did not wish to subsidise U.K. coal to the same extent it was in the U.S. or Germany.

Most primary industries in the west are heavily subsidised in order to keep them afloat, it's a trade off, throw some cash at the mines/farms etc in order to keep some jobs and reduce reliance on foreign imports.

[Devrim]

I'm locked in an argument with some right-wing Thatcherite nutjob, who is trying to say that the Unions were unpopular with ordinary workers during the 1980s and blame the Unions heads for the parlous state of those left behind by the decline of manufacturing.

This wasn't how it was at all. 'The unions' were unpopular with 'public opinion', but remember that public opinion is something that is manufactured by the media.

The big strikes in the winter of 1978-79, the second biggest mass strike in history, which created this backlash in the media were not organised by the 'union heads'. They had signed an agreement with the governing Labour Party called the social contract, which brought in a pay freeze. The strikes were organised against the 'union heads'.


How many of the workers stayed out on strike and for how long?

Wasn't it something like just over 50% of miners came out with the Unions initially?

If you are talking about the miners' strike, it lasted a year. Just under 75% were out at the start.


To be fair a lot of ordinary workers just wanted to end all of the strikes and just return to their old lifestyles but having said that Thatcher could have easily just stopped being so damn stubborn given the unions what they wanted which was a decent minimum wage, etc. and everything would have been much simpler.

It wasn't something that I heard at the time. I was on strike over half a dozen times one year and I never heard one person complain about it. There was a lot of it in the media though.

Devrim