Was John Lennon a communist?

[ILLuminato]

I know it wouldn't suit his practice of selling music, but was John lennon a communist? I think he was personally, and he always fought for peace, and living as one.

I never really found clarification though....

[Ocean Seal]

Quite frankly, I don't think so.

[Widerstand]

Uhm.

How about ...


No?

How is "fighting for peace" (nice paradox, fucking for virginity O/) communist?

[Who?]

He was a dirty hippie.

[Red Commissar]

He toyed with a lot of lefty concepts (as the counter-culture did in general). I'd say it was pronounced a lot in his song the Working Class Hero, but that can easily be put into an anti-consumerist, anti-materialist, or a call against the monotony of society, not socialism really. Otherwise by calling him "communist" we would have to call many of the people from that time Communist and that certainly wasn't the case.

He seemed to hold that socialism/marxism was outdated (I remember a video somewhere where he says "dreams of socialism, marxism solving everything, then he goes into a rant about elected officials)

[ContrarianLemming]

I know it wouldn't suit his practice of selling music, but was John lennon a communist? I think he was personally, and he always fought for peace, and living as one.

I never really found clarification though....

Probably not, not in our sense anyway

just a very regular hippy, or an anti materialist anarchist/marxist.

[The Intransigent Faction]

I doubt it. I enjoy his music, but he's not the first, or the last, singer with an anti-war, anti-greed etc. political message. He may very well have supported "change", but not to the extent of a workers' revolt, overthrow of the capitalist system and its replacement by socialism.

Of course, Nixon seemed to think so when he tried to deport him.

EDIT:

I think this should have answered the question already...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzCjGgrewYY&feature=fvst

[HammerAlias]

Probably not, not in our sense anyway

just a very regular hippy, or an anti materialist anarchist/marxist.

In many of his songs, he does show anti-materialist and anarchist qualities. In 'Imagine', for instance, he envisioned a world with no countries, no religion or possession or any greed or poverty.

[Devrim]

In many of his songs, he does show anti-materialist and anarchist qualities. In 'Imagine', for instance, he envisioned a world with no countries, no religion or possession or any greed or poverty.

Imagine sitting in your mansion at your white grand piano, which surely cost a few bob too, and singing about a world without possessions. Oh you don't need to because that is what he is doing in the video.

Devrim

[Muzk]

Imagine sitting in your mansion at your white grand piano, which surely cost a few bob too, and singing about a world without possessions. Oh you don't need to because that is what he is doing in the video.

Devrim

Since you're against anti-fascism I can't ever take you for serious, sorry.

[RadioRaheem84]

Since you're against anti-fascism I can't ever take you for serious, sorry.

:crying: Devrim, say it ain't so.

[Devrim]

:crying: Devrim, say it ain't so.

No, left communists are against anti-fascism.

Devrim

[RadioRaheem84]

No, left communists are against anti-fascism.

Devrim

Why?

[Muzk]

Why?

It's class-collaboration according to them. (Forming a bloc with other "classes")


I laughed my ass off as soon as I read that. And then I cried. And now I don't like left-communists anymore.

[Widerstand]

Why are you against anti-fascism?

wow I'm slow.

[bcbm]

when insurrections die (http://libcom.org/library/when-insurrections-die) from dauve lays down the left-com position well, i think.

[RadioRaheem84]

It's class-collaboration according to them. (Forming a bloc with other "classes")

Do left coms mean forming a bloc with bourgeois and petites who may be anti-fascist?

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Lennon was a leftist. He seemed to have been a somewhat confused utopian socialist. He supported and I believe financially aided the British miner's strike, the Liverpool resistance to Thatcher and various left causes.

There's an interesting interview with him in Red Mole, done by Tariq Ali.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/carousel/pob12.html

Paul McCartney came out against Liverpool. He seems to have emerged as fairly reactionary.

John Lennon acted in a film shot in Spain in 1966. A few years later the Beatles contemplated buying some sort of studio/retreat in Ibiza. Both these actions implied at least passive support for the Franco regime. In Ibiza the Beatles were apparently tripping most of the time and were not aware, or much interested, in politics.

The classic 60s rockers, from Dylan to Jagger, weren't nearly as left wing as people thought. I have read that Rod Stewart was a BNP supporter.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Just so Devrim doesn't have to repeat it. From the Gramsci vs. Bordiga thread




Originally Posted by ICC
There is a need for the working class to defend itself against racist attacks, as one component of all the attacks reigning down on it. Following the attacks on Romanians in Belfast, there were practical efforts made to guard potential victims' homes by local residents acting together with some politicised elements, students and so on. In a higher stage of the class struggle it would be possible to develop a more organised and massive defence of working class or immigrant neighbourhoods from pogromist attacks, as we saw for example in the great strikes of 1905 in Russia, or in the opposition of the London dockers to Moseley's planned march through the Jewish East End in 1936. But anti-fascist fronts drown out class solidarity in what is, fundamentally, a defence of the democratic system. There are two elements to this. The first is the desire to 'confront' right wing elements be it at demonstrations or particular events. Such 'exemplary' actions by individuals and small groups tends to act as a substitute for real class solidarity, which is based on widening the collective struggle.
Quote:
What would be the strategy or view on countering groups like the EDL, BNP, or US fascist or Nazi groups?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICC
The leftists' anti-fascist fronts are based on the idea that fascism is the number one danger to the working class. But it wasn't the BNP or EDL that have been breaking down people's doors at 3am, or locking up women and children in detention centres where they suffer traumas and abuse, but the democratically elected Labour Party, which used the issue of immigration as and how it suited its needs. Phil Woolas, the last Labour immigration minister said: "This is a deliberate attempt by the EDL at division and provocation, to try and push young Muslims into the hands of extremists, in order to perpetuate the divide. It is dangerous." But the Labour Party has certainly driven many more young Muslims into the hands of the jihadists with its war policies in Iraq and Afghanistan and its increasingly repressive arsenal of laws aimed at ‘fighting terrorism' at home. The fundamental problem with anti-fascism is that it aims to convince us that we should ally with ‘democratic' bourgeois parties who are no less our enemy than the fascists.

[GPDP]

Uh, could we cut the anti-fascism talk, as it is very off-topic?

Anyway, I wouldn't call him an all-out socialist, as he was more utopian than materialist, but nevertheless, he DID hold leftist views. Oh, and I believe in an interview, he said the song "Revolution" was meant to be PRO-revolution, but was instead toned down into being against it so as to not scare people or something.

[HEAD ICE]

It's class-collaboration according to them. (Forming a bloc with other "classes")


I laughed my ass off as soon as I read that. And then I cried. And now I don't like left-communists anymore.

The legacy of betrayal in "anti-fascist" movements by the bourgeoisie towards the working class is very sad, and it deserves your tears. Not liking left communists is understandable, it is a very harsh and unpleasant fact that invokes deep emotions.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

No and his solo music was a bore. Unfortunately (and perhaps in my sole opinion), some of the most reactionary and racist musicians / bands turned out to produce the best music, the who for example.

[RadioRaheem84]

some of the most reactionary and racist musicians / bands turned out to produce the best music, the who for example.

The Who? Really?

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

The Who? Really?

(and perhaps in my sole opinion)
:tongue_smilie:

You can't deny Keith Moon was an amazing drummer..

[ContrarianLemming]

In many of his songs, he does show anti-materialist and anarchist qualities. In 'Imagine', for instance, he envisioned a world with no countries, no religion or possession or any greed or poverty.

I don't appreciate your conection between "anti materialism" and anarhcism.

[Vanguard1917]

Imagine sitting in your mansion at your white grand piano, which surely cost a few bob too, and singing about a world without possessions. Oh you don't need to because that is what he is doing in the video.

Devrim

And anyway, poor people don't need to 'imagine' that there's no possessions, like its some distant reality. It pretty much is reality.

Also, 'Working Class Hero' talks of workers as people who are 'doped up with religion and sex and TV' who 'think [they're] so clever and classless and free' but are actually 'still fucking peasants as far as I can see'. Unlike himself, of course, who is extremely enlightened and cultured with his long hair, round specs, white piano and Japanese artist wife.

Not good. Makes him sound like our LETSFIGHTBACK guy. Not good at all.

What's worse is the line: 'If you want to be a hero well just follow me.' If that's not irony, then it's just downright being full of yourself.

[Pirate Utopian]

hippies are the true free spirits bakunin and marx spoke of!

you fat working class bastards arent living the socialist way

Some guy: irrelevant quote

[Muzk]

hippies are the true free spirits bakunin and marx spoke of!

you fat working class bastards arent living the socialist way

Some guy: irrelevant quote

im not fat..

[Sir Comradical]

It's class-collaboration according to them. (Forming a bloc with other "classes")


I laughed my ass off as soon as I read that. And then I cried. And now I don't like left-communists anymore.

Which isn't a ridiculous position at all to be honest. I mean, I can understand the left-com' point of view because the anti-fascist stance can translate to class-collaborating with friendly capitalists against the outright evil capitalists (fascists).

[Lyev]

im not fat..Muzk I think you need to take this whole anti-anti-fascism canard a bit more seriously. If we look at fascism simply as the most extreme form of capitalism (capitalism in decay, sort of), and then remind ourselves that class struggle serves as the political basis for Marxism, then we find ourselves in somewhat of a quandary if we think fighting fascism necessarily entails teaming up with those we are meant to be struggling against, (bourgeois and reformist parties or organisations). This is class-collaborationism (working together with other classes, rather than struggling in contradiction to them, to meet our political ends): the complete antithesis to class struggle. But surely, as a Trotskyist you uphold the united front which means an alliance of exclusively proletarian and leftist organisations to fight fascism.

It's interesting how Stalin and the Comintern went from the theory of "social fascism", which basically was the theory that put social-democrats on a par with fascism. Although, for a better understanding of this theory see the failure of the Spartacist revolution: social-democracy necessitates bourgeois parliamentarianism, despite it's often proletarian support-base, because of the position any reformists have in relation to the capitalist state, which they ultimately will defend and uphold. Summed up, Ebert etc. installed the reactionary right-wing Freikorps to "keep the peace" (the Freikorps murdered Luxemburg and Liebknect as you of course know) and said paramilitaries ended up as the precursor to the SS and Nazism. I think some of the most notable Freikorps officers later became SS officers. And back on point, the official Soviet and Comintern position, as regards the Spanish civil war etc., ended up being that of the popular front. By the way, I may have misunderstood the united front.

And to the OP, of course he wasn't a fucking communist. If Lennon was a communist, then so is Obama.

[Devrim]

Just so Devrim doesn't have to repeat it. From the Gramsci vs. Bordiga thread

Thank you.

Devrim

[IllicitPopsicle]

No more so than Jello Biafra. (in other words, no.)

[Obs]

im not fat..
You're not working class, either.

[Chambered Word]

I thought the united front was about having an alliance around certain demands with bourgeois and left forces while winning non-communist workers to the movement, in contrast to the popular front where the communists unconditionally threw their lot in behind bourgeois forces.

[Fawkes]

No and his solo music was a bore. Unfortunately (and perhaps in my sole opinion), some of the most reactionary and racist musicians / bands turned out to produce the best music, the who for example.

That's not really true about The Who, they weren't that bad politically. You could've gone for a better target like The Germs, Bad Brains, RATM, or Pantera.

[Blackscare]

That's not really true about The Who, they weren't that bad politically. You could've gone for a better target like The Germs, Bad Brains, RATM, or Pantera.

They see me trollin'




They hatin'

[Widerstand]

They see me trollin'




They hatin'

FUCK YOU I WON'T DO WHAT YOU TELL ME
FUCK YOU I WON'T DO WHAT YOU TELL ME
FUCK YOU I WON'T DO WHAT YOU TELL ME
FUCK YOU I WON'T DO WHAT YOU TELL ME
FUCK YOU I WON'T DO WHAT YOU TELL ME
FUCK YOU I WON'T DO WHAT YOU TELL ME
FUCK YOU I WON'T DO WHAT YOU TELL ME
FUCK YOU I WON'T DO WHAT YOU TELL ME

Very cool politics.

[Lyev]

I thought the united front was about having an alliance around certain demands with bourgeois and left forces while winning non-communist workers to the movement, in contrast to the popular front where the communists unconditionally threw their lot in behind bourgeois forces.As I said, I may have misunderstood it. I'll have a glance at What Is Fascism and How To Fight It or whatever it's called, and some of his stuff on the Spanish civil war and come back.

[fa2991]

I know it wouldn't suit his practice of selling music, but was John lennon a communist? I think he was personally, and he always fought for peace, and living as one.

I never really found clarification though....

He wasn't a communist, but he was a "communist."

[Widerstand]

He wasn't a communist, but he was a "communist."

[citation needed]

[Fawkes]

They see me trollin'




They hatin'

I'm takin myself too seriously



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