I had a scary dream last night

[ILLuminato]

I had a dream that I was living in socialist Italy, and these people came to my home to tell me to move to a new "patch" of grass (which awfully resembled the Patch.com website). Anyways, I knew I was living under socialism so I was afraid that maybe they would kill me if they found something in my home critical of their circus, after they sent guards in to "inspect" my house. Anyways, I woke up from there I was so terrified.

Does anybody in here live in communism or socialism? Do they kill people who they think are critical of their government? I know the purges went on in Russia and a million were killed.

[Tablo]

I had a dream that I was living in socialist Italy, and these people came to my home to tell me to move to a new "patch" of grass (which awfully resembled the Patch.com website). Anyways, I knew I was living under socialism so I was afraid that maybe they would kill me if they found something in my home critical of their circus, after they sent guards in to "inspect" my house. Anyways, I woke up from there I was so terrified.

Does anybody in here live in communism or socialism? Do they kill people who they think are critical of their government? I know the purges went on in Russia and a million were killed.
Happened a lot under state-capitalist regimes, but even that is grossly over-exaggerated.

Never ever will happen in Communism.

[RadioRaheem84]

Listen troll, I know that you think that you have the high moral ground because the US is this relative bastion of freedom and what not, but yet you spend most of your critical expertise at derailing communist nations when you should be looking at the imperial nations. What they did to Vietnam alone is enough for me to call the US an imperial juggernaut. Now examine what they did to countless nations with their brutal foreign policy and economic hegemony.

Stuff the communist nations would've never even dreamed of. So the next time you feel like being smug little asshole, you should read on what capitalism has done to countless people across the world who at the mercy of big capital and structural adjustment policies.

Jeez, this is sad that all over the net there is this right-libertarian morality that views communism as some sort of flip side to fascism. I mean do they not think of capitalist Nigeria, Mexico, Haiti, Indonesia, the Philippines, Guatemala, etc?

[#FF0000]

Yeah we generally don't think killing people who disagree with us is a good idea.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Yeah we generally don't think killing people who disagree with us is a good idea.

Speak for yourself, liberal.

[ILLuminato]

I know, but all I'm asking for is...how could it be insured that the same won't thing happen under a future communist government? The purges, things happening in Cuba, Venezuela, etc. I'm not being a troll here. I'm just asking, because the textbook education I received makes me feel like millions upon millions were killed. And, 99% of trials were guilty verdicts it seems.

[Communist]

^
There hasn't ever been a communist government. But what do you think about all the atrocities perpetrated by capitalism?

.

[RadioRaheem84]

The purges, things happening in Cuba, Venezuela, etc. I'm not being a troll here.

What's happening in Venezuela?

[Blackscare]

Oh, I see, so textbooks used in classrooms run by a government extremely hostile to leftism across the world are a reliable source now? I forgot, the USA doesn't employ massive propaganda all throughout people's lives to demonize certain political systems.


By the way I'm a libertarian Marxist (not libertarian in the american sense of the word, mind you). I just call myself a small-government Marxist to get it through people's heads these days.

[ILLuminato]

What's happening in Venezuela?
A lot of bad stuff. People getting killed for opposing Chavez. And yes, there's never been a real communist government, however, the "means" is to reach communism. And through those means, millions are purged. Are they not? Or am I wrong?

[Blackscare]

A lot of bad stuff. People getting killed for opposing Chavez. And yes, there's never been a real communist government, however, the "means" is to reach communism. And through those means, millions are purged. Are they not? Or am I wrong?


Source on that? Or are these just vague "facts" that you got regurgitated from some right-wing news outlet?

[RadioRaheem84]

A lot of bad stuff. People getting killed for opposing Chavez. And yes, there's never been a real communist government, however, the "means" is to reach communism. And through those means, millions are purged. Are they not? Or am I wrong?

Are you sure about this or are you reading this in your textbooks? Or perhaps from a right wing new source?

[#FF0000]

I know, but all I'm asking for is...how could it be insured that the same won't thing happen under a future communist government? The purges, things happening in Cuba, Venezuela, etc. I'm not being a troll here. I'm just asking, because the textbook education I received makes me feel like millions upon millions were killed. And, 99% of trials were guilty verdicts it seems.

I think you're talking about about what happened in Russia, which was a result of incredible political turmoil, because they had a bunch of different governing bodies at different levels (workers councils, peasant organizations, the Party itself, the State itself...etc.) who all had their own ideas on how things ought to be run and with horrible organization and communication between them.

As for Cuba and Venezuela, I'm not really sure what you're talking about, so if you could be more specific, that'd help.

Anyway, yeah I wouldn't say it's any more likely that a socialist government would fall into this problem than a capitalist one would.


A lot of bad stuff. People getting killed for opposing Chavez. And yes, there's never been a real communist government, however, the "means" is to reach communism. And through those means, millions are purged. Are they not? Or am I wrong?


Who's getting killed for opposing Chavez? There are huge anti-Chavez rallies all the time and the radio and tv stations are all generally anti-Chavez.

As for the USSR's purges, that had way more to do with a government with disastrous organization. The purges were an act of desperation more than anything else.

[Blackscare]

I mean, you realize that those that oppose Chavez are almost entirely the rich and upper middle class right? Meaning that the opposition is extremely powerful, given that it is composed of Venezuela's old dominant economic oligarchy. These people are the source of a lot of the violence and mayhem going on. If you think that ousted oligarchs somehow play fair or are helpless "victims" when the relatively weak Chavez government doesn't even have the power to get the homicide rate under control, you're living in a fairytale hombre.



The right wing in south america has always been extremely violent, which is why I think it's funny when in the USA we're fed this bullshit about the left being bloodthirsty barbarians down there.


Look at all the rightwing paramilitaries that kill bario-dwellers with death squads, or the trade unionists killed by the coca-cola company. The right tries to deflect from and cover up its own crimes by painting the opposition as even worse, when that is simply not the case if you take the time to look into it and stop slopping up right-wing blurbs and factoids like a pig at the trough.

[Ele'ill]

I had a dream that I was living in socialist Italy, and these people came to my home to tell me to move to a new "patch" of grass (which awfully resembled the Patch.com website). Anyways, I knew I was living under socialism so I was afraid that maybe they would kill me if they found something in my home critical of their circus, after they sent guards in to "inspect" my house. Anyways, I woke up from there I was so terrified.

Does anybody in here live in communism or socialism? Do they kill people who they think are critical of their government? I know the purges went on in Russia and a million were killed.

This isn't generally how any system anywhere should be run. The reason there are socialists, anarchists, communists, marxists etc is because we're unfortunately currently living the horrific conditions that you described above in your post under capitalism- in various countries- and we refuse to accept it. We fight against injustice that is wide spread right now under capitalism. We believe another world is possible.

Your dream would have been accurate had anarchist or communist revolutionary forces come to your aide and defended you from whoever was forcing you to relocate.

[Lyev]

Historical left-wing projects throughout the past 20th century did not happen in a vacuum, completely uninfluenced by other specific political, social, economic, geographical etc. etc. factors prevalent at the time. For example, let's sum up very quickly the Russian situation, with which the Bolsheviks were confronted in 1917. Firstly it's a huge (and cold) country, so transport was a problem at times. Secondly, famine was a regular occurrence (see the famines of 1921, 1924, 1936, 1946, 1921, 1939, 1948 etc. etc.). Thirdly, the civil war following the revolution (but also WWI and WWII) played principal roles in slowing down growth, or diverting to production of arms and weaponry. In the civil war alone, some 9 million Russians, mostly civilian died I think, with initially 14 separate capitalist powers intervening on the side of whites. Fourthly (this ties in with the fifth reason), the Bolsheviks were counting on the success of the revolution in Germany (a fully industrialised country, that had left feudalism long behind), but the head of the leftist movement was cut off with the failure of the Spartacist uprising and the murder of Luxemburg and Liebknecht by the right-wing Freikorps. Fifthly, Russia was largely engaged in backward agricultural occupation, with a mish-mash of largely feudal class relations in the countryside, with a dual ruling class of a weak industrial bourgeoisie and rural landlordism; capitalism was not fully developed. And for a doctrine that bases itself in the emancipation of the working class to function to its full extent in a country with a working class population of only roughly 11% is somewhat problematic. I could list many more reasons, or use the plight of countless more revolutionary movements (Cuba, China, Vietnam etc.) of the past 20th c. to illustrate my point.

Anyway, back to the point, if we want reduce our analysis of political and economic structures to simply the death toll purportedly induced by said structures then where does the buck stop? Capitalism is the dominant political globally today and due to this some 10 million die a year of starvation, 2 million a year of diarrhea and a further 2 million again of malaria; all easily prevented illnesses. Or, another thing, it was recently estimated that roughly 4 to 5 million people died in the US alone, due to lack of food and such, during the Great Depression of the 30s. So, Herbert Hoover is also now a cold-blooded murderer. At least in 1930s Russia everyone had a house and a job. But, this happened 80 years ago now, so let's use an example closer to home. You mentioned people being rounded up forcibly and taken from their houses, well, this isn't quite the same, but I live in the UK and my brother is leaving home to go to university (same as college in the US) in a few months and due to the recession (and therefore the massive failures in capitalism) he and the whole of his peers nationally are facing a shortfall of up to 200,000 university places; an average student debt of £24,700 (providing he gets into university); an expected 35% cut from the education budget and an average graduate unemployment rate of 14%. If you think "Communism"* was/is bad you must weigh the alternatives. Capitalism is far, far worse.

*(Most leftists today don't uphold a lot of the aspects "Communist" regimes of the past 20th c. - nor do any of us at all claim that these said regimes were at all communist actually)

[ILLuminato]

Has anybody here lived under heavy socialist rule?

[Magón]

Has anybody here lived under heavy socialist rule?

I've lived in Cuba and Venezuela from time to time. There really is no heavy socialist rule, like there's never been a true Communist nation. Secondly, where do you get the idea that those opposed to Chavez are being killed? Most of the rich in Venezuela are just kicked out, and if not kicked forcibly removed as they're too greedy to help those that work on their land.

[Ele'ill]

Has anybody here lived under heavy socialist rule?


The most ridiculous and dishonest strawmen put forth by those opposed to socialism- still are better than what we're living through right now- by ten fold- I also live in the United States of America.

[Broletariat]

Why did a troll topic get more than three serious posts again?

[#FF0000]

Has anybody here lived under heavy socialist rule?

Have you?

[AK]

Does anybody in here live in communism or socialism?
Yeah, all of the US. :rolleyes:

I know, but all I'm asking for is...how could it be insured that the same won't thing happen under a future communist government? The purges, things happening in Cuba, Venezuela, etc. I'm not being a troll here. I'm just asking, because the textbook education I received makes me feel like millions upon millions were killed. And, 99% of trials were guilty verdicts it seems.
I don't know about the rest of this forum, but I don't want to install any "communist" regime.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Has anybody here lived under heavy socialist rule?
I live under a worse condition: heavy capitalist rule.

[AK]

I live under a worse condition: heavy capitalist rule.
Most of what the OP considers to be "heavy socialist rule" is what many of us would consider to be heavy capitalist rule anyway.

[RadioRaheem84]

Yes it's strange that most people think that the characteristics of a third world cappie nation are socialist characteristics.

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

A lot of bad stuff. People getting killed for opposing Chavez.

There are no people getting killed for opposing Chavez.

What happens is that you are sent to Room 101 where a big bulky guy named O'Brien beats you up and talks to you about doublethink and makes you understand the principles of Ingsoc and the Inner Party.

Anyone and everyone who refuses to accept Chavez and hte Ingosc principles is sent to Room 101.

Anyone. And everyone.

Another man, all dressed in white and armed with a syringe, pumps drugs into your arm to make you go to sleep and recover from the experience -- and then the process continues.

It's like a soldier's boot forever stomping on a human face.

[tbasherizer]

Why did a troll topic get more than three serious posts again?

We're on a forum, so probably for post count or even some rep points. I've also found a strong desire, in my career as a leftist, to write long diatribes smashing rightists, trolls or not, which I'm sure some of our comrades share.

[ContrarianLemming]

Yeah we generally don't think killing people who disagree with us is a good idea.

see the freedom of speech thread for counter argument.. half the forum thinks this is a good idea.

[Nolan]

If people were actually being killed for opposing Chavez then the rich wouldn't be there. This is just a myth cooked up by globoterror with no real substance whatsoever, as part of their strategy to label Chavez a dictator.

Someone trash this thread.

[Jazzratt]

Two things, firstly I'm restricting the OP for obvious reasons. Second I don't think that "I dreamed that socialism was horrible" really cuts the mustard as a proper critique of anything. Seriously, he only way the opening to this thread could have been any less promising is if the title was "I took a boatload of heavy duty drugs last night" (although that thread could, at least, have been amusing).

[Q]

I had a dream that I was living in capitalist USA, and these people came to my home to tell me to move to a new "patch" of grass as I couldn't pay my mortgage anymore as my bank just doubled the interest. Anyways, I knew I was living under capitalism so I was afraid that maybe thugs would kill me if they found something in my home critical of their circus, after they sent police in to "inspect" my house. Anyways, I woke up from there I was so terrified.

Then I woke up and realised I was living the nightmare.