The Horwitz challenge

[Skooma Addict]

Horwitz writes:


The next time you're engaged in a political discussion with someone who has very strong views different from your own, ask them if they can name two famous thinkers or politicians whose politics are opposed to theirs who they also think are very smart and genuinely concerned with making the world a better place. If they can't, it's not clear they are able to grant the good faith such discussions should have.

I am curious to know who comes to your mind.

Since I created the topic, I will start.

-Hyman Minsky
-John Kenneth Galbraith
-Murray Rothbard

[Conquer or Die]

1. Eric Hoffer
2. Aleksandr Solzhenistyn
3. Frederic Bastiat
4. Phyllis Schafly

[RadioRaheem84]

1. Most Keynesians

2. A lot of social democrats and liberals

3. Christopher Hitchens

4. The only right winger I remotely respect is Thomas Sowell.

[Demogorgon]

How far from our own position do they have to be? I mean if I get to choose people on the centre left I could give you hundreds. Given you have chosen Rothbard, it seems they don't need to be polar opposites or anything. On that basis, I could simply give you the names of most of the current Scottish Government, all of whom are plainly well meaning progressives whose goals are far too modest and are never going to achieve much. I say that quite honestly, they are obviously on a completely different political page from me (social democracy mixed with social liberalism in their case) but I genuinely believe that most of them are well meaning. The UK Government on the other hand...

If you want figures that would be regarded on the right by the mainstream, well I think at least some of the Christian Democrats who created the West German Social Market were well meaning (such as Ropke, who was most definitely not an Austrian ;)). I don't think much of Adenaeur or Erhard obviously, but I think some of those that drew up the welfare policies that tamed capitalism did mean well.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Jay Albert Nock and Karl Hess.

[NGNM85]

How far from our own position do they have to be?

That's the question. I mean, it would be nearly impossible to find someone with whom you disagree about evertything, it would also be nearly impossible to verify that. That said, there are plenty of people I disagree with, on a number of issues, that are perfectly intelligent and well-intentioned people.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Post-Keynesians (from Minsky to Wray and Keen)
Michael Hudson and other left-leaning Classical economists

[Nolan]

Emma Goldman was admirable in principle.

I respect Rothbard for being sincere in his anti-imperialism. He actually believed in what he preached, apparently.


I can't really think of any one specific issue that I agree with these people in.

[Revolution starts with U]

Somewhat opposed ideologies?
Tim Ryan (he's my congressman haha), many Stalin/Moaists (anarchy :D), Jesus of Nazareth, I could go on...
Totally opposed ideologies?
I respect Ron Paul, Alex Jones (for his speaking out, his politics are attrocious), and... eh, cant really think of any other righties. And Rothbard I think really wanted to help all people. I just think he was tragically hegemonized by the powers that be, and his right wing bias fooled him into thinking help the rich = help the poor.

[#FF0000]

I still like Malatesta even though Anarchism is hella stupid.

I also like a lot of classical liberals.

And at least Ron Paul says he hates US military intervention abroad.

[NGNM85]

I still like Malatesta even though Anarchism is hella stupid.

Is that truly necessary?

[Nolan]

That is so obvious it's practically spam.

[Revolution starts with U]

Eh, I would say democracy is nearly anarchy. And democracy did more for the world than almost any other singular thing (eh, we can probably even take that almost out). Anarchy is just democracy fully realized with no need of statist hegemony to keep the people in line.
Dictator < Republic < Democracy < Socialism/Anarchy
imho :thumbup1:

[Stephen Colbert]

I dont mind Hayek. Smart, but I disagree.

Bill Mayer is a critic of religion(:)) but I HATE how elitist he is.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Is that truly necessary?

He just feels grumpy cuz he left the fold.

[RGacky3]

Thomas Jefferson
Kant
Lenin
Che
Rousseau
FDR
Teddy Roosavelt


Those are some that I vehemently disagree with, but who's ideas I respect.

There are others,

I have tremendous respect for congress men like Anthony wiener, Alan Grayson, Al Frankin, Bernie Sanders, and others that make a concerted effort to fight corporate power, even though I"m against the system that they support.

I have a lot of respect for many priests, monks and fryers in the middle ages and during the spanish/english colonialism age, many of those in the lower clergy classes during that time were the ones that opposed the class system and opposed colonialism.

Although I am vehimently against the Catholic Church, however I have tremendous respect for many of those that fight power.

There are others, in the ancient world, who went against the norm airing on the side of humanity. King Darius, Moses (including leading the freeing of slaves, and the law which was the first that made private property subject to collective control though things like gleening), Those that resisted The Roman Empire, the various Jewish rebels, various Gallic resistors, Boudica in britain.

[Dean]

Horwitz writes:



I am curious to know who comes to your mind.

Since I created the topic, I will start.

-Hyman Minsky
-John Kenneth Galbraith
-Murray Rothbard
Isaiah Berlin, Adam Smith and Alex Jones.

Though I don't see why such respect engenders "good faith." Good faith is specifically tied to an earnest attempt to understand, relate and honestly respond to the ideas and arguments being proposed by your discussion partner.

[Thug Lessons]

Isaiah Berlin, Adam Smith and Alex Jones.

Though I don't see why such respect engenders "good faith." Good faith is specifically tied to an earnest attempt to understand, relate and honestly respond to the ideas and arguments being proposed by your discussion partner.
I definitely agree with you about Isaiah Berlin and Adam Smith, though I would add Ricardo as he was probably the greatest thinker out of the early political economists.

But Alex Jones? The crazy, raving, right-wing conspiracy theorist on talk radio? Smart? Or maybe you're talking about someone else.

[IcarusAngel]

Keynes and new Keynesians (even though I think Keynesianism is dead, because modern capitalism has outgrown it, perhaps i'll expand on this later).... Namely, Stiglitz. Also Dr. Chang and he even studied with socialists for a while.

The early classical economists who were predecessors to neoclassicals (Pareto) because many of them were good mathematicians who actually were attempting to be scientific/mathematical and even made a few discoveries in math themselves (unlike modern neoclassical economists which is arcane/crazy mathematics that clearly has been invalided by new discoveries new theorems) - even though they did steal or "borrow" equations and applied them where they didn't belong.

Rousseau. I feel he is a good writer. John Stuart Mill. Again, good writer, very brilliant man. Wilhelm von Humboldt. I generally like to study political literature that helps me with my reading/writing etc. Many other classical liberals whose work I feel has been distorted by the modern Libertarian movement, but nonetheless is still outdated.

[Dean]

I definitely agree with you about Isaiah Berlin and Adam Smith, though I would add Ricardo as he was probably the greatest thinker out of the early political economists.

But Alex Jones? The crazy, raving, right-wing conspiracy theorist on talk radio? Smart? Or maybe you're talking about someone else.

Yeah I think he's insane. For the record I could probably add Ted Kaczynski to the list. Also insane.

Know why I like Alex Jones? He's one of the few media characters who will seriously discuss the Bilderberg Group, Trilateral Commission and other serious shit. The conclusions he comes to aren't usually that great. But I regard his influence as significant in the wider attention the Bilderbergers have enjoyed recently (unfortunately, I think the serious discussion has shifted to some other such gathering since the group attracted attention).

I guess Jones would be pretty much shit to debate with. I don't think he's brilliant by any means. But I respect him and vehemently oppose him at the same time, so he fits some of the criteria...

[Qayin]

Know why I like Alex Jones? He's one of the few media characters who will seriously discuss the Bilderberg Group, Trilateral Commission and other serious shit. The conclusions he comes to aren't usually that great. But I regard his influence as significant in the wider attention the Bilderbergers have enjoyed recently (unfortunately, I think the serious discussion has shifted to some other such gathering since the group attracted attention).I made a post with a half baked critique of the Bilderberg Group from a non-conspiracist perspective

This is sorely needed to be looked into by the left.

[bailey_187]

David Ricardo
Alfred Marshall

[Dean]

I made a post with a half baked critique of the Bilderberg Group from a non-conspiracist perspective

This is sorely needed to be looked into by the left.
What irritates me is the total black out in the mainstream media - another example as to why one cannot trust it.

Oops, Bilderberg has outed itself to the media, and Wikileaks carries some of its documents: http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:Bilderberg_Group, http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2004/jun/04/netnotes.markoliver, http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/15/politics/politico/main4866472.shtml

Further examples of media lies for top-payers:
CIA influences front page Time mag. article:http://www.observer.com/2010/time-storys-point-view-mirrors-cias-0
AIPAC's parent org. pays to plant stories in The Atlantic: http://original.antiwar.com/smith-grant/2010/08/17/the-israel-lobby-swims-the-atlantic/

What has happened to the world of industry-management today? They have simply learned to be quieter about their acquisitions of propaganda space.

[Pravda Soyuz]

Jesus
Adam Weishaupt
Stalinists