Thank you hippies

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

I've looked back and remembered my conversations with the so called "hippies" when I was younger, and how they had inspired me throughout the years, along with the works of Marx, Engels Bakunin etc.Going back to the counterculture of the 60's, and how they we're at the forefront of the anti war movement, along with students and, when their sons bodies began coming back in boxes,the unions.

It always inspired me how they lived what they believed. They shed consumerism,and since we have to live on it, and need to live on what it produces,they wanted to protect the earth. Plus, they also we're also anti privatization of the earth's resources.they operated food drives for the poor, they we're involved in the civil rights movement, the women's movement and they we're anti establishment and anti police. Their goal was to work less, but work collectively. But the main message was peace, love and cooperation between people.

From the hippie movement came the Black Panther party. The Panthers did more for the black community, which is what they wanted people to see, that you don't need government. That people, working collectively, can do for themselves. again, theory and actions. Food drives, Breakfast, programs, food programs, education and even clinics we're operated by members of the community. I don't see Marx having a problem with any of it. Accept the people on this board.

Yeah, you criticize their drug use. But I don't read anything on this board criticizing the use of Alcohol, pot, cocaine, etc of the precious working class.It seems that when one does criticize the working class hero's, they are attacked and accused of being elitist. But, wasn't the hippie a member of the working class? Then why is it OK to attack them and call them "vile" and "druggies", but it isn't OK to criticize the booze drinking, steeped in consumerism, anti EVERYTHING we stand for,greedy, self centered lifestyle of the precious every day worker? Oh, I know why, because you are trying to recruit them to your ideas, so let's not be critical. Again, they lived what they preached, DO YOU?

[GreenCommunism]

Amen

[Broletariat]

Again, they lived what they preached, DO YOU?
Refusing to participate in Capitalist society isn't going to make Capitalism somehow "wither" away. You're essentially advocating that we do literally nothing and that this way Capitalism will fall. Capitalism must be forced to fall.

[Jazzhands]

Lifestylism is not revolutionary. The anti-war movement, maybe. But what they did was basically saying "I don't like the system, so I'm not going to participate." That's like saying, "if you don't like murder, don't commit one." It doesn't change the system, it just gives it one less customer.

[GreenCommunism]

they did more than most of us did, thats the point.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Lifestylism is not revolutionary. The anti-war movement, maybe. But what they did was basically saying "I don't like the system, so I'm not going to participate." That's like saying, "if you don't like murder, don't commit one." It doesn't change the system, it just gives it one less customer.



And isn't that how it starts? You can't overthrow a system by participating and respecting it's culture, it's lifestyle, it's rules, it's regulations, it's consumerism and everything it stands for.

But, again, the people on this board have this "hands off" attitude when it comes to the working class, and criticizing their embrace of everything this poisonous system stands for. Again, I ask, aren't the hippies part of the working class? why is it acceptable to attack them, when they are living a lifestyle that is anti establishment, anti authoritarian, anti consumerism, but it is not OK to criticize the sick, greedy, pro capitalist, pro nationalist, anti EVERYTHING we stand for lifestyle of the common worker.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

And isn't that how it starts? You can't overthrow a system by participating and respecting it's culture, it's lifestyle, it's rules, it's regulations, it's consumerism and everything it stands for.

But, again, the people on this board have this "hands off" attitude when it comes to the working class, and criticizing their embrace of everything this poisonous system stands for. Again, I ask, aren't the hippies part of the working class? why is it acceptable to attack them, when they are living a lifestyle that is anti establishment, anti authoritarian, anti consumerism, but it is not OK to criticize the sick, greedy, pro capitalist, pro nationalist, anti EVERYTHING we stand for lifestyle of the common worker.

Huh, so your anti-worker.

Enjoy your time in OI.

[t.shonku]

Hippies were great! They were one of the major reason why Vietnam war stopped.

THANK YOU HIPPIES.

[Raúl Duke]

I've looked back and remembered my conversations with the so called "hippies" when I was younger, and how they had inspired me throughout the years, along with the works of Marx, Engels Bakunin etc.Going back to the counterculture of the 60's, and how they we're at the forefront of the anti war movement, along with students and, when their sons bodies began coming back in boxes,the unions.

Yeah, but now "hippies" of the present are nothing like those of the past.


From the hippie movement came the Black Panther party.

:blink:

Well, I always thought they primordially arise from the civil rights movement and the new left equally.


But, wasn't the hippie a member of the working class?

Not all, some, perhaps most.


Oh, I know why, because you are trying to recruit them to your ideas, so let's not be critical.

Some people here are all about recruitment, some not.

[Jazzhands]

Huh, so your anti-worker.

Enjoy your time in OI.

wait, what?


In response to LETSFIGHTBACK:

Obviously, I make certain decisions. For instance, not to eat at McDonalds, both because of their labor practices and because their food literally makes me sick. This isn't revolutionary. Now, if I worked at McDonald's and convinced the workers to go on strike, that would be revolutionary because they're actually changing something about the system beyond themselves. I happen to respect the anti-authoritarian nature of hippies. But being anti-anything should involve taking actual steps to fight it. I'm not saying they didn't do good things, just that it was not nearly enough.

EDIT: In their defense they helped stop the Vietnam War. point for hippies.

[Sam_b]

Hippies were great! They were one of the major reason why Vietnam war stopped.


I don't think the radical student and worker movement with their strikes and blockades can be considered 'hippies', can you? Certainly not the resistance movement that started to grow in the armed forces itself.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Huh, so your anti-worker.

Enjoy your time in OI.


??????? explain.

[Sam_b]

Huh, so your anti-worker.

At least LFB actually has some politics.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

wait, what?


In response to LETSFIGHTBACK:

Obviously, I make certain decisions. For instance, not to eat at McDonalds, both because of their labor practices and because their food literally makes me sick. This isn't revolutionary. Now, if I worked at McDonald's and convinced the workers to go on strike, that would be revolutionary because they're actually changing something about the system beyond themselves. I happen to respect the anti-authoritarian nature of hippies. But being anti-anything should involve taking actual steps to fight it. I'm not saying they didn't do good things, just that it was not nearly enough.

EDIT: In their defense they helped stop the Vietnam War. point for hippies.

The point is, it has to start somewhere. And it was the hippies that started a political, cultural expoltion in this country, and the UK. You can't have a revolution while still embracing the Political institutions, it's culture, it's values,it's consumerism and the mineless way of life.You have to make a break with EVERYTHING this system stands for. And that's what they did. But, according to some on this board, they are "vile".

[praxis1966]

I don't think the radical student and worker movement with their strikes and blockades can be considered 'hippies', can you? Certainly not the resistance movement that started to grow in the armed forces itself.

Yeah, they can. My father was part of the radical student movement and a hippie. He was at Miami University (in Ohio) in the summer of '68 when the state of Ohio blew up and he knew people that were at Kent State during the killings. He participated in the demonstrations that resulted in the calling out of hundreds of state police and eventually shut his campus down as well. He participated in a lot of anti-war demonstrations afterward, including the largest of them in DC in '69. There were plenty of hippies who were political. Personally, I think a lot of what people are basing their opinions of hippies on is in large part based on their current incarnation which is far and away not what the original hippies were like.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Yeah, they can. My father was part of the radical student movement and a hippie. He was at Miami University (in Ohio) in the summer of '68 when the state of Ohio blew up and he knew people that were at Kent State during the killings. He participated in the demonstrations that resulted in the calling out of hundreds of state police and eventually shut his campus down as well. He participated in a lot of anti-war demonstrations afterward, including the largest of them in DC in '69. There were plenty of hippies who were political. Personally, I think a lot of what people are basing their opinions of hippies on is in large part based on their current incarnation which is far and away not what the original hippies were like.

I agree. it is a fad, not a lifestyle. Like people walking around with Che shirts. Or, 15 years ago, people we're walking around with kafia's. They didn't understand the meaning, it was just a fashion statement.And this happens because Americans are fad followers. They give no thought behind their actions.

And as far as the armed forces, when was the last time you heard of fragging? massive amounts of people going AWOL? Many became revolutionized while in the military and found themselves in the brig for refusing to follow orders.

[The Red Next Door]

Black Panthers were not hippies, and yes. Hippies did some cool shit back then; but now some of them are a bunch of lazy ass potheads, that say "yeah man take down the motherfucker system, let fight back man". Well man, get off your ass man and do something that is actually productive to the revolutionary cause.

[Delenda Carthago]

What has the hippies movement left us?How did they evonled the recolutionary process?How woodstock helped the world change?What if there where a marxist/communist/anarchist/nihilist demostration/riot of the same amount of people?

PS.Die Hippie Die!

PS2.Jimmy Hendrix sux.

[Os Cangaceiros]

The hippie subculture during the 1960's was really pretty marginal. It's impact has been vastly overstated within popular culture.

[The Red Next Door]

What has the hippies movement left us?How did they evonled the recolutionary process?How woodstock helped the world change?What if there where a marxist/communist/anarchist/nihilist demostration/riot of the same amount of people?

PS.Die Hippie Die!

PS2.Jimmy Hendrix sux.


They sexually liberated us.

[RED DAVE]

I don't think the radical student and worker movement with their strikes and blockades can be considered 'hippies', can you? Certainly not the resistance movement that started to grow in the armed forces itself.There was, in fact, huge overlap between the student movement, community-based movements, black movement, labor movement, revolutionary organizations and the hippies. (I was there! :D)

In the beginning, hippyism (to coin a phrase) was actually a retreat from politics in the early and mid-60s. Because of the war, hippyism became more radical, culminating in the Yippies (Abby Hoffman, etc.), who were overtly political hippies.

The interactions between hiippies and the rest of what was called in the 60s "The Movement" were complex, frequently refreshing, often frustrating. But there was definitely a time, very brief, when political radicalism, revolutionary marxism, portions of the labor movement, hippyism, and everything else was moving towards a grand synthesis.

Never quite happened though. :( But you shoulda been there.

RED DAVE

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Black Panthers were not hippies, and yes. Hippies did some cool shit back then; but now some of them are a bunch of lazy ass potheads, that say "yeah man take down the motherfucker system, let fight back man". Well man, get off your ass man and do something that is actually productive to the revolutionary cause.

Never said they were. I said it came out of.
2-I don't see ANYTHING revolutionary in working yourself into an early grave.And this is what Marx, Engels, Bakunin etc talked about, A society where REAL freedom is working less, not more. And what we have is a society that, out of necessity, is trying to grab as much work as possible. Not because they want to, but to survive.So you are either worrying yourself into an early grave, or working yourself into an early grave. So, given the choice, I rather be a lazy pothead, if I can work less as possible and engage in more political work, than to be working my life away, then going down to my neighborhood bar and *****ing and moaning and groaning about it.

[Delenda Carthago]

They sexually liberated us.
respect!

[ContrarianLemming]

see: southpark hippy episode for our feelings on hippies

you know what I can't stand?
well I guess you don't
anyway it's those sort of hippies and lifestylists who frown upon those "boring" people who work normal boring routine jobs and live routine regular lives, I get this atitude where they're "free spirits" and live good fun lives, that they live for the moment. What they don't seem to understand - like the children they are - is that these people have been fortunate enough to live these lives, they have been prosperious enough to be able to live those care free lives, and they have the kushba to frown upon office workers for there unimaginitive lifestyle.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

see: southpark hippy episode for our feelings on hippies

you know what I can't stand?
well I guess you don't
anyway it's those sort of hippies and lifestylists who frown upon those "boring" people who work normal boring routine jobs and live routine regular lives, I get this atitude where they're "free spirits" and live good fun lives, that they live for the moment. What they don't seem to understand - like the children they are - is that these people have been fortunate enough to live these lives, they have been prosperious enough to be able to live those care free lives, and they have the kushba to frown upon office workers for there unimaginitive lifestyle.



And again, this is what Marx , Engels, Bakunin etc talked about, this is what real freedom is, working less means MORE free time, more freedom. Time to engage in politics, the arts, to spend more time with ones family and to be involved with the running of society, collectively. It isn't a badge of honor to work yourself into an early grave.

[GreenCommunism]

see: southpark hippy episode for our feelings on hippies

you know what I can't stand?
well I guess you don't
anyway it's those sort of hippies and lifestylists who frown upon those "boring" people who work normal boring routine jobs and live routine regular lives, I get this atitude where they're "free spirits" and live good fun lives, that they live for the moment. What they don't seem to understand - like the children they are - is that these people have been fortunate enough to live these lives, they have been prosperious enough to be able to live those care free lives, and they have the kushba to frown upon office workers for there unimaginitive lifestyle.

Stan's dad: yes but back then we actually stood for something!.

i agree that the exploitation of the third world is what allows those people to live the lives they do. but i doubt hippies really despise office working people that much, i think the hate is coming both ways, they don't like the idea that working is the only reason human live for. which is the attitude of many workers in this country.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Stan's dad: yes but back then we actually stood for something!.

i agree that the exploitation of the third world is what allows those people to live the lives they do. but i doubt hippies really despise office working people that much, i think the hate is coming both ways, they don't like the idea that working is the only reason human live for. which is the attitude of many workers in this country.

Amen.

[RED DAVE]

William Wordsworth on being a hippy (around 1790)


OH! pleasant exercise of hope and joy!
For mighty were the auxiliars* which then stood
Upon our side, we who were strong in love!
Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive,
But to be young was very heaven!(* "auxiliars" means something like allies or supporting forces)

Like I said, you shoulda been there.

RED DAVE

[Os Cangaceiros]

see: southpark hippy episode for our feelings on hippies

you know what I can't stand?
well I guess you don't
anyway it's those sort of hippies and lifestylists who frown upon those "boring" people who work normal boring routine jobs and live routine regular lives, I get this atitude where they're "free spirits" and live good fun lives, that they live for the moment. What they don't seem to understand - like the children they are - is that these people have been fortunate enough to live these lives, they have been prosperious enough to be able to live those care free lives, and they have the kushba to frown upon office workers for there unimaginitive lifestyle.

I don't know about the hippies of yesteryear, but many of the neo-hippies of today (the so-called "lifestylists") don't have two pennies to rub together. They're probably all less well-off than an office worker. Prosperous is not an adjective that I would use for them (although it is true that many of them come from comfortable backgrounds, and merely living in a wealthy nation provides one with all sorts of opportunities that they might not have otherwise.)

In any case, the idea of "dropping out" of an economic system is hardly a new one...in fact, it has a long history in the USA, in places like Oneida and New Harmony and elsewhere.

[praxis1966]

see: southpark hippy episode for our feelings on hippies

you know what I can't stand?
well I guess you don't
anyway it's those sort of hippies and lifestylists who frown upon those "boring" people who work normal boring routine jobs and live routine regular lives, I get this atitude where they're "free spirits" and live good fun lives, that they live for the moment. What they don't seem to understand - like the children they are - is that these people have been fortunate enough to live these lives, they have been prosperious enough to be able to live those care free lives, and they have the kushba to frown upon office workers for there unimaginitive lifestyle.

Again, I think you're basing a lot of your opinion on the current incarnation of hippies. The hippies of the late 60s and early 70s used their appearance as an overt rebellion against the status quo, and that included establishment politics. The modern ones do it more out of nostalgic tradition more than anything else (as far as I can tell). The hippies of the 60s and 70s produced or were involved in organizations like SDS, The Weathermen, the SNCC, the Peace and Freedom Party, the RAF and the Red Brigades. Now whether you agree with the particular leftist paradigms or practices of those organizations is a whole different kettle of fish, but there's no denying that they were all attempting to foment some form of leftist revolution and had people who could be described as hippies involved at an integral level.

Most of today's hippies, or at least the ones I've encountered, are (as you more or less say yourself) over privileged yuppie larvae whose parents' income subsidizes their ability to sit around smoking pot, eating 'shrooms, and lamenting the death of Jerry Garcia whilst backpacking through Europe. But don't let that put you off to what real hippies once were (and I emphasize the word real as I don't consider anyone under the age of about 55 or so a real hippie).

[fa2991]

The point is, it has to start somewhere. And it was the hippies that started a political, cultural expoltion in this country, and the UK. You can't have a revolution while still embracing the Political institutions, it's culture, it's values,it's consumerism and the mineless way of life.You have to make a break with EVERYTHING this system stands for. And that's what they did. But, according to some on this board, they are "vile".

That only makes sense if you don't think about it at all.

[Jazzhands]

Pretentious neo-hippies (or posers) of today are worthless compared to the good kind that actually existed in RED DAVE's time. I know at least three girls who wear peace signs around their necks and support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.:mad: it makes me rage.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

That only makes sense if you don't think about it at all.

Explain.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Pretentious neo-hippies (or posers) of today are worthless compared to the good kind that actually existed in RED DAVE's time. I know at least three girls who wear peace signs around their necks and support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.:mad: it makes me rage.


I agree, it's a fad, trendy. Like waring the Kafia in the 90's, they had no idea that it meant Solidarity with the Palestinians. Things do have a habit of becoming co-opted by fashion ave.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

I don't know about the hippies of yesteryear, but many of the neo-hippies of today (the so-called "lifestylists") don't have two pennies to rub together. They're probably all less well-off than an office worker. Prosperous is not an adjective that I would use for them (although it is true that many of them come from comfortable backgrounds, and merely living in a wealthy nation provides one with all sorts of opportunities that they might not have otherwise.)

In any case, the idea of "dropping out" of an economic system is hardly a new one...in fact, it has a long history in the USA, in places like Oneida and New Harmony and elsewhere.


As far as not having two pennies, neither does the working class. But those on this board are not as critical of their opinions, outlook and way of life.Engels came from a wealthy background. Should he have been disected and attacked?

[RED DAVE]

Anybody want to hear some stories about living on the Lower East Side from 1964 to 1969?

RED DAVE

[Os Cangaceiros]

As far as not having two pennies, neither does the working class. But those on this board are not as critical of their opinions, outlook and way of life.Engels came from a wealthy background. Should he have been disected and attacked?

Yes.


Anybody want to hear some stories about living on the Lower East Side from 1964 to 1969?

Oh no, gramps is gonna start telling stories about the good ol' days again...j/k:lol:

[The Red Next Door]

Never said they were. I said it came out of.
2-I don't see ANYTHING revolutionary in working yourself into an early grave.And this is what Marx, Engels, Bakunin etc talked about, A society where REAL freedom is working less, not more. And what we have is a society that, out of necessity, is trying to grab as much work as possible. Not because they want to, but to survive.So you are either worrying yourself into an early grave, or working yourself into an early grave. So, given the choice, I rather be a lazy pothead, if I can work less as possible and engage in more political work, than to be working my life away, then going down to my neighborhood bar and *****ing and moaning and groaning about it.

Yeah, but where the money, when party dues are due?

[The Red Next Door]

anybody want to hear some stories about living on the lower east side from 1964 to 1969?

red dave

i do :d

[RED DAVE]

Once upon a time, there was this girl with real long hair. She was, of course, a Stalinist, because back then Stalinist girls wore their hair long, wore peasant blouses, long skirts and sandals. :D

And I met this girl with real long hair on a peace march. But before that the two of us were also members of a semi-secret Commie discussion club. (Inside that semi-secret Commie discussion club was an even more secret Commie discussion clue which included the two Merropol boys.)

And anyway this long-haired Stalinist girl and I began to fall in love with each other, but she was a Stalinist, and I was an International Socialist, so what could I do. So I did the only honorable thing: I recruited her to International Socialism, and I got an apartment on the Lower East Side on Avenue B and 4th Street, and together we invented the Sexual Revolution. (But we didn't do drugs because real Lefties didn't do that, but we did drink cheap red wine.)

And then we got married, and the long-haired Stalinist girl was now a short-haired International Socialist woman. And I was a leader of a student strike at NYU in December of '66, and she was a leader of the anti-war movement at CCNY. And then I got thrown out of NYU for being a Leftie-pinko, and she got suspended from CCNY for being a leader of a student sit-in. And as a result of the Sexual Revolution, she got pregnant.

To be continued.

RED DAVE

[Os Cangaceiros]

ain't horizontal recruitment grand?

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Yeah, but where the money, when party dues are due?



Are you experimenting with drugs right now?:lol:

[The Red Next Door]

once upon a time, there was this girl with real long hair. She was, of course, a stalinist, because back then stalinist girls wore their hair long, wore peasant blouses, long skirts and sandals. :d

and i met this girl with real long hair on a peace march. But before that the two of us were also members of a semi-secret commie discussion club. (inside that semi-secret commie discussion club was an even more secret commie discussion clue which included the two merropol boys.)

and anyway this lintg-haired stalinist girl and i began to fall in love with each other, but she was a stalinist, and i was an international socialist, so what could i do. So i did the only honorable thing: I recruited her to international socialism, and i got an apartment on the lower east side on avenue b and 4th street, and together we invented the sexual revolution. (but we didn't do durgs because real lefties didn't do that, but we did drink cheap red wine.)

and then we got married, and the long-haired stalinist girl was now a short-haired international socialist woman. And i was a leader of a student strike at nyu in december of '66, and she was a leader of the anti-war movement at ccny. And then i got thrown out of nyu for being a leftie-pinko, and she got suspended from ccny for being a leader of a student sit-in. And as a result of the sexual revolution, she got pregnant.

To be continued.

red dave
kINKY Old MAN :D

[The Red Next Door]

Are you experimenting with drugs right now?:lol:


NO

[praxis1966]

Once upon a time, there was this girl with real long hair. She was, of course, a Stalinist, because back then Stalinist girls wore their hair long, wore peasant blouses, long skirts and sandals. :D

And I met this girl with real long hair on a peace march. But before that the two of us were also members of a semi-secret Commie discussion club. (Inside that semi-secret Commie discussion club was an even more secret Commie discussion clue which included the two Merropol boys.)

And anyway this lintg-haired Stalinist girl and I began to fall in love with each other, but she was a Stalinist, and I was an International Socialist, so what could I do. So I did the only honorable thing: I recruited her to International Socialism, and I got an apartment on the Lower East Side on Avenue B and 4th Street, and together we invented the Sexual Revolution. (But we didn't do durgs because real Lefties didn't do that, but we did drink cheap red wine.)

And then we got married, and the long-haired Stalinist girl was now a short-haired International Socialist woman. And I was a leader of a student strike at NYU in December of '66, and she was a leader of the anti-war movement at CCNY. And then I got thrown out of NYU for being a Leftie-pinko, and she got suspended from CCNY for being a leader of a student sit-in. And as a result of the Sexual Revolution, she got pregnant.

To be continued.

RED DAVE

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Best. Shit. Ever.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

NO


You say that "the working class is the best"

Well here is something, I think, applies to you
Nietzsche:Faith:not wanting to know what is true.
Bertrand Russell:the trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the Itelligent are full of doubt.
Albert Einstein::only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

The hippie subculture during the 1960's was really pretty marginal. It's impact has been vastly overstated within popular culture.


And thats it! Hippie was a subculture where there was some few individuals that did some good stuff and that doesnt mean that they as a united whole was organazing all the great strikes, uprisings that was going on in this period. To claim that the hippies founded the ground for the black panthers, is pure revisionism.

[Who?]

Hippies have sort of been glorified over the years. I mean, yeah, they were part of a larger radical movement in the 60's but they certainly weren't the primary force behind it. They certainly helped move us towards a more egalitarian society, for that they should be thanked. However, the hippies were also a bunch of pot smoking, LSD dropping brats. For that they should not be thanked.

As far as the 60's go I'll go ahead and throw my hat in with the real revolutionaries. True leftists that fought against capitalism as well as the war machine. Who actually accomplished things and didn't just "Turn on, tune in and drop out." We should look to groups like the Black Panthers, the SDS and others for inspiration.


Once upon a time, there was this girl with real long hair. She was, of course, a Stalinist, because back then Stalinist girls wore their hair long, wore peasant blouses, long skirts and sandals. :D

And I met this girl with real long hair on a peace march. But before that the two of us were also members of a semi-secret Commie discussion club. (Inside that semi-secret Commie discussion club was an even more secret Commie discussion clue which included the two Merropol boys.)

And anyway this lintg-haired Stalinist girl and I began to fall in love with each other, but she was a Stalinist, and I was an International Socialist, so what could I do. So I did the only honorable thing: I recruited her to International Socialism, and I got an apartment on the Lower East Side on Avenue B and 4th Street, and together we invented the Sexual Revolution. (But we didn't do durgs because real Lefties didn't do that, but we did drink cheap red wine.)

And then we got married, and the long-haired Stalinist girl was now a short-haired International Socialist woman. And I was a leader of a student strike at NYU in December of '66, and she was a leader of the anti-war movement at CCNY. And then I got thrown out of NYU for being a Leftie-pinko, and she got suspended from CCNY for being a leader of a student sit-in. And as a result of the Sexual Revolution, she got pregnant.

To be continued.

RED DAVE

One word: groovy. :cool:

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Lifestylism is not revolutionary. The anti-war movement, maybe. But what they did was basically saying "I don't like the system, so I'm not going to participate." That's like saying, "if you don't like murder, don't commit one." It doesn't change the system, it just gives it one less customer.

So boycotts are meaningless gestures? The boycotts of busses in the southern US or refusal of indians to pay the salt taxes or refusal to buy Israeli goods today are all just worthless acts of masturbation?

And as for the original topic, fuck hippies. I remember them solely for good music but fuck hippies.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Hippies have sort of been glorified over the years. I mean, yeah, they were part of a larger radical movement in the 60's but they certainly weren't the primary force behind it. They certainly helped move us towards a more egalitarian society, for that they should be thanked. However, the hippies were also a bunch of pot smoking, LSD dropping brats. For that they should not be thanked.

As far as the 60's go I'll go ahead and throw my hat in with the real revolutionaries. True leftists that fought against capitalism as well as the war machine. Who actually accomplished things and didn't just "Turn on, tune in and drop out." We should look to groups like the Black Panthers, the SDS and others for inspiration.



One word: groovy. :cool:

And what has the working class done lately?, what are they, but a bunch of Alcohol drinking, legal and Illegal pill popping, sports watching,porn watching, fast food eating couch potatos whos bellies are larger than their knowledge.

As Bertrand Russell said:Many people would sooner die than think, in fact, they do so.

[Broletariat]

So boycotts are meaningless gestures? The boycotts of busses in the southern US or refusal of indians to pay the salt taxes or refusal to buy Israeli goods today are all just worthless acts of masturbation?
Yea basically.

[The Red Next Door]

You say that "the working class is the best"

Well here is something, I think, applies to you
Nietzsche:Faith:not wanting to know what is true.
Bertrand Russell:the trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the Itelligent are full of doubt.
Albert Einstein::only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.


Says the animal liberator.

[The Red Next Door]

And what has the working class done lately?, what are they, but a bunch of Alcohol drinking, legal and Illegal pill popping, sports watching,porn watching, fast food eating couch potatos whos bellies are larger than their knowledge.

As Bertrand Russell said:Many people would sooner die than think, in fact, they do so.

I smell Liberal elitism. :glare:

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

I smell Liberal elitism. :glare:


Prove me wrong.By the way, why isn't it "liberal elitism" when you criticize hippies,it's only applied when you criticize the gluttonous,fat, vulgar working class.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Prove me wrong.By the way, why isn't it "liberal elitism" when you criticize hippies,it's only applied when you criticize the gluttonous,fat, vulgar working class.

Because hippies are not an economic class. It's a bunch of lifestylists.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Red Dave, I look forward to Part II. What happened with you and this ex-Stalinist girl? Are you and her still together? My guess that both of you eventually drifted apart, but not before sharing many interesting adventures. Sorry if its too personal. I am very much intrigued by left wing "coming of age" type stories like this.

[Ele'ill]

Another lifestylist thread.

Oh my god- what have you done?

[McCroskey]

I believe hippies in the 60s gave the world something really good: counterculture. The idea of creating spaces free from though control and state authority. Yeah, maybe that´s not the way to overthrow capitalism, but alternatives were recognised around the world and we are still talking about them 50 years on. Alternative projects outside state control are effective counter-education and their aim is to show that there is a problem and that solutions can be workable. I have written in a couple of threads about a small communist cooperative town in southern Spain. Yes, they are not going to overthrow the capitalist goverment in their country, but they made millions of people aware that it is possible to organise protest movements and be successful, and to have virtually free housing and distribute labour equally to end unemployment, and gave spanish society food for thougth (also mainstream media are doing a good job in keeping it underground). Squatter movements are not going to end the problem of homelessness or housing, but they help divulgating the problem of property speculation and the amount of empty houses that are not put to social use, and the contradictions of private property. Hippies and the 60s counterculture were not going to change the world, but it did more to convince millions of people of the need to organise and the power of the grassroots movements than any other movement in the world.
And let's face it, they created a cultural revolution that made millions aware of state indoctrination, and inspired millions to confront mainstream capitalist culture and promote the ideals of fair distribution and socialism. Don't look just at the clothes, drugs and flowers. Students in the Sorbonne in May 1968's revolution were fuelled by the same principles as hippism, and so were the protests in Spain in the late 60s against Franco's regime, both politically and in terms of moral repression.
At least they had the guts to go out and do something, and create the spirit of rebellion, unlike the young of today, programmed by TV, lazyness and greed, and proud of being standarised consumers and disposable parts of a private production machine, without even bothering thinking outside state and parental indoctrination.

[fa2991]

I believe hippies in the 60s gave the world something really good: counterculture. The idea of creating spaces free from though control and state authority. Yeah, maybe that´s not the way to overthrow capitalism, but alternatives were recognised around the world and we are still talking about them 50 years on. Alternative projects outside state control are effective counter-education and their aim is to show that there is a problem and that solutions can be workable. I have written in a couple of threads about a small communist cooperative town in southern Spain. Yes, they are not going to overthrow the capitalist goverment in their country, but they made millions of people aware that it is possible to have virtually free housing and distribute labour equally to end unemployment, and gave spanish society food for thougth. Squatter movements are not going to end the problem of homelessness or housing, but they help divulgating the problem of property speculation and the amount of empty houses that are not put to social use, and the contradictions of private property. Hippies and the 60s counterculture were not going to change the world, but it did more to convince millions of people of the need to organise and the power of the grassroots movements than any other movement in the world.
And let's face it, they created a cultural revolution that made millions aware of state indoctrination, and inspired millions to confront mainstream capitalist culture and promote the ideals of fair distribution and socialism. Don't look just at the clothes, drugs and flowers. Students in the Sorbonne in May 1968's revolution were fuelled by the same principles as hippism, and so were the protests in Spain in the late 60s against Franco's regime, both politically and in terms of moral repression.
At least they had the guts to go out and do something, and create the spirit of rebellion, unlike the young of today, programmed by TV, lazyness and greed, and proud of being standarised consumers and disposable parts of a private production machine, without even bothering thinking outside state and parental indoctrination.

None of those things originated from hippies.

[scarletghoul]

What's really annoying and confusing is when people say hippies ended the vietnam war :laugh: Nothing to do with the Vietnamese people pwning the US military, noooo, it was all down to hippies and their peaceful protests.... the vietnamese were just violent opportunists leeching off the success of the hippy movement

[McCroskey]

None of those things originated from hippies.

Nope, but they were the ones that made those alternatives known to teh world.

[fa2991]

Nope, but they were the ones that made those alternatives known to teh world.

If by "the world" you mean stoned privileged suburbanites, then yes.

[Who?]

And what has the working class done lately?, what are they, but a bunch of Alcohol drinking, legal and Illegal pill popping, sports watching,porn watching, fast food eating couch potatos whos bellies are larger than their knowledge.

As Bertrand Russell said:Many people would sooner die than think, in fact, they do so.

I am offended by your classism, not just as a communist, but as a human being. You group the whole of the proletariat into some disgusting stereotype. You, sir, must think about you priorities as a so called "revolutionary" it almost seems like you're trolling to be honest with you.

[Qayin]

I am offended by your classism, not just as a communist, but as a human being. You group the whole of the proletariat into some disgusting stereotype. You, sir, must think about you priorities as a so called "revolutionary" it almost seems like you're trolling to be honest with you.
x2


a bunch of Alcohol drinking, legal and Illegal pill popping, sports watching,porn watching, fast food eating couch potatos whos bellies are larger than their knowledge.
Whats wrong with any of these things again?

[synthesis]

This thread is so fucking depressing.


From the hippie movement came the Black Panther party.


And what has the working class done lately?, what are they, but a bunch of Alcohol drinking, legal and Illegal pill popping, sports watching,porn watching, fast food eating couch potatos whos bellies are larger than their knowledge.


By the way, why isn't it "liberal elitism" when you criticize hippies,it's only applied when you criticize the gluttonous,fat, vulgar working class.

No way. You can't be serious. No fucking way. GTFOH.



The interactions between hiippies and the rest of what was called in the 60s "The Movement" were complex, frequently refreshing, often frustrating. But there was definitely a time, very brief, when political radicalism, revolutionary marxism, portions of the labor movement, hippyism, and everything else was moving towards a grand synthesis.

Never quite happened though. :( http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/sad.gif But you shoulda been there.

This strikes me as nostalgic romanticism at best.


kushba

Chutzpah?


The hippies of the 60s and 70s produced or were involved in organizations like SDS, The Weathermen, the SNCC, the Peace and Freedom Party, the RAF and the Red Brigades.

All of them? :lol:

[Pirate Utopian]

and what has the working class done lately?, what are they, but a bunch of alcohol drinking, legal and illegal pill popping, sports watching,porn watching, fast food eating couch potatos whos bellies are larger than their knowledge.

As bertrand russell said:many people would sooner die than think, in fact, they do so.
gtfo.

[Chambered Word]

gtfo.

Plus fucking one to this. :thumbup1:

The working class have been struggling against their rulers, that's what they've been doing.

[RED DAVE]

The interactions between hiippies and the rest of what was called in the 60s "The Movement" were complex, frequently refreshing, often frustrating. But there was definitely a time, very brief, when political radicalism, revolutionary marxism, portions of the labor movement, hippyism, and everything else was moving towards a grand synthesis.

Never quite happened though. :( But you shoulda been there.
This strikes me as nostalgic romanticism at best.Well, Comrade, I do have an advantage: I was there and politically conscious at the time.

There's nothing nostalgic about what I wrote. This happened from about 68 to 70. It was very intense, contradictory, unever, etc., and the counter-trends of reaction and racism were already growing, which gave everything an overheated quality, but this was definitely so. And it definitely involved the working class.

1970 US Postal Strike (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._postal_strike_of_1970)

RED DAVE

[Il Medico]

Once upon a time, there was this girl with real long hair. She was, of course, a Stalinist, because back then Stalinist girls wore their hair long, wore peasant blouses, long skirts and sandals. :D

And I met this girl with real long hair on a peace march. But before that the two of us were also members of a semi-secret Commie discussion club. (Inside that semi-secret Commie discussion club was an even more secret Commie discussion clue which included the two Merropol boys.)

And anyway this long-haired Stalinist girl and I began to fall in love with each other, but she was a Stalinist, and I was an International Socialist, so what could I do. So I did the only honorable thing: I recruited her to International Socialism, and I got an apartment on the Lower East Side on Avenue B and 4th Street, and together we invented the Sexual Revolution. (But we didn't do drugs because real Lefties didn't do that, but we did drink cheap red wine.)

And then we got married, and the long-haired Stalinist girl was now a short-haired International Socialist woman. And I was a leader of a student strike at NYU in December of '66, and she was a leader of the anti-war movement at CCNY. And then I got thrown out of NYU for being a Leftie-pinko, and she got suspended from CCNY for being a leader of a student sit-in. And as a result of the Sexual Revolution, she got pregnant.

To be continued.

RED DAVE
Congrats Dave, this made you cool again.:thumbup1:

[Quail]

And what has the working class done lately?, what are they, but a bunch of Alcohol drinking, legal and Illegal pill popping, sports watching,porn watching, fast food eating couch potatos whos bellies are larger than their knowledge.

As Bertrand Russell said:Many people would sooner die than think, in fact, they do so.

Lolwut you should definitely be restricted for that.. and you look down on others as not being revolutionary!

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I grew up in a fairly conservative family. Early high school I discovered the Abbie Hoffman/Jerry Rubin "canon", "Revolution for the Hell of It", "Steal This Book", etc.Although I wasn't quite ready for left politics at that time, Rubin/Hoffman (esp. Hoffman) helped open up a different way of thinking for me.

For a long time I was depressed that I missed out on "the 60s". I saw this as the aborted birth of a possible alternative civilization. I was oddly nostalgic for something I never experienced myself but wished I had. Maybe this is because I never completely had a "coming of age" experience myself.

I went though a long stage where I read a lot of Theodor Roszak, Ivan Illich, EF Schumacher, RD Laing,Ray Mungo, and Eastern Religion stuff. I thought this was the key to transforming civilization and abolishing capitalism. This was before I read Marx and became familiar with ideas of class struggle.I still hold on to some of my earlier views. Communities such as The Farm, Rainbow Gatherings, Burning Man, can provide a glimpse of some of the potentialities of future human liberation.

I would agree that most "hippies" today are lifestylists, contemptuous of political engagement. Its frustrating because many of these people are "politically aware", at least to some extent but belong to subcultures which look down on politics.This could change rapidly as class struggle heats up.This could be more of a US phenomena. My understanding is that countercultural communities in Greece and elsewhere are much more political.

Anyway I think we need more people like Red Dave to provide a bridge between generations of struggle and as a repository of even recent historic memory.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

"The 60s", that is radical political movements, an anti-consumerist mood, experiments in communal living and in music and art,and working class militancy, occurred very basicaly because capitalism had outgrown its usefulness. Productivity had reached a point far beyond the level supporting capitalist systems of hierarchal control and subordination.

There was a UAW strike in the early 70s I read about where the union was successful in getting a higher pay package. the workers were still not happy. They were dissatisfied with the whole idea of "wage slavery itself. Who wants to work on an assembly line all day? (I've done this, it sucks). This way of thinking today is almost inconceivable.

That's basically what the neo-liberal offensive of the past 3 decades has been about. To paraphrase Sarkozy, the ruling class wants to "crush 1968 forever" . Since 1968 is really human nature, this can't work, not for long anyway.


The crackdown of neo-liberalism arose in reaction to this.

[Vanguard1917]

Never said they were. I said it came out of.
2-I don't see ANYTHING revolutionary in working yourself into an early grave.And this is what Marx, Engels, Bakunin etc talked about, A society where REAL freedom is working less, not more.

The Marx and Engels you mention argued that working hours could be radically reduced in socialist society as a result of a radical stepping up of economic output through technological progress and vast industrial and agricultural projects, to allow human beings to far better master nature and create far greater wealth from it.

You feelin' that? No, i thought not.

And while you obviously have a lot of contempt for workers, Marx and Engels saw the working class as potentially the most revolutionary class that history ever produced, the class with the power to create the most advanced society that history has ever seen.

Learn about Marxism before you invoke it. But be warned: it will be a learning experience that will change your entire worldview, which is currently in somewhat poor shape.


Refusing to participate in Capitalist society isn't going to make Capitalism somehow "wither" away. You're essentially advocating that we do literally nothing and that this way Capitalism will fall. Capitalism must be forced to fall.

Indeed. The hippy-lifestylist strategy of opting out of capitalism and retreating into cosy little 'communes' where everyone sleeps on top of one another and shits into buckets of compost, is missing the point ever so slightly.

[Jazzhands]

And what has the working class done lately?, what are they, but a bunch of Alcohol drinking, legal and Illegal pill popping, sports watching,porn watching, fast food eating couch potatos whos bellies are larger than their knowledge.

As Bertrand Russell said:Many people would sooner die than think, in fact, they do so.

Blatant classism. Restrict?

[scarletghoul]

fuck hippies and all their delusions of historical significance.

you didn't end the vietnam war, the vietnames people did
the black panthers were not freakin hippies. they emerged from the same rebellious era but were actually anti-pacifist revolutionaries, not to be confused with lazy smelly druggies

Psychedelic music is awesome but really in terms of politics hippies are useless and, as this hippie-lover demonstrates, ideologically anti-socialist.

[synthesis]

Well, Comrade, I do have an advantage: I was there and politically conscious at the time.

There's nothing nostalgic about what I wrote. This happened from about 68 to 70. It was very intense, contradictory, unever, etc., and the counter-trends of reaction and racism were already growing, which gave everything an overheated quality, but this was definitely so. And it definitely involved the working class.

I'm referring specifically to your assertion that "everything was moving towards a grand synthesis." I've heard the same thing from my mom, who partook in the student occupation of Cornell University. The fact that "you were there" doesn't make your arguments infallible. I'm sure it appeared that way, though.

[RED DAVE]

Well, Comrade, I do have an advantage: I was there and politically conscious at the time.

There's nothing nostalgic about what I wrote. This happened from about 68 to 70. It was very intense, contradictory, unever, etc., and the counter-trends of reaction and racism were already growing, which gave everything an overheated quality, but this was definitely so. And it definitely involved the working class.
I'm referring specifically to your assertion that "everything was moving towards a grand synthesis." I've heard the same thing from my mom, who partook in the student occupation of Cornell University. The fact that "you were there" doesn't make your arguments infallible. I'm sure it appeared that way, though.When I said "everything was moving towards a grand synthesis," I meant a trend, a tendency, a direction, which, of course, was never fulfilled.

PS: Your mom was right. :D

RED DAVE

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Is there any possibility this "grand synthesis" could reemerge and be fulfilled in the future?

[synthesis]

When I said "everything was moving towards a grand synthesis," I meant a trend, a tendency, a direction, which, of course, was never fulfilled.

I understood what you meant. I just don't agree with it. Again, I'm sure that's how it seemed at the time, that the fractured left was comprehensively moving towards one unified goal - but that's not really a meaningful way to understand that period in history. When I said your analysis struck me as nostalgic romanticism, I meant that it was romanticized in the sense that you participated with the youthful enthusiasm of that time, and nostalgic in the sense that that enthusiasm eventually evaporated. I'm not sure my point is coming across, but I think you see what I'm saying.

[RED DAVE]

When I said "everything was moving towards a grand synthesis," I meant a trend, a tendency, a direction, which, of course, was never fulfilled.
I understood what you meant. I just don't agree with it. Again, I'm sure that's how it seemed at the time, that the fractured left was comprehensively moving towards one unified goal - but that's not really a meaningful way to understand that period in history. When I said your analysis struck me as nostalgic romanticism, I meant that it was romanticized in the sense that you participated with the youthful enthusiasm of that time, and nostalgic in the sense that that enthusiasm eventually evaporated. I'm not sure my point is coming across, but I think you see what I'm saying.I understand what you are saying. This issue is: is my "subjective" account of what was going on in the late 60s a reflections of "nostalgic romanticism" or was it a reflection, with some accuracy, of material conditions?

Obviously it wasn't a complete reflection of such conditions because ithe "grand synthesis" didn't happen. But, what truth was there to it?

Revolutionary crises had already taken place in France and Czechoslovakia in '68. The political structure of the US was in the hands of a right-center government (Nixon). In 1970, as I posted above, there was a national postal strike; however, neither the New Left nor the Old Left had much roots in the working class at that point, so there was no input. Some groups of the Old and New Left grew in the 1970s. However, by the time at least part of the Left (the IS, for example) had sunk some fragile roots in the working class, the wave of militancy of the mid-70s was over, alas.

So was it a romantic illusion? The question is: could things have been elsewise. The answer to that is no! The course of political development, in the West, Eastern Europe, Africa, Latin America, Asia, outstripped the growth of the Left and the possibility of conscious input and direction.

So, I will have to concede that there was an element of left-wing romanticism in the 60s. However, no one could have predicted that all that energy and consciousness, no matter how distorted, could be shut down so completely by the late 70s.

Still, you shoulda been there. Keep the faith baby.

RED DAVE

[A.R.Amistad]

Is anyone going to please ban LFTB??

Now, I'm going to go be a low-life worker and go drink, do some porn and whatever other fun shit we working class folks do....

[Os Cangaceiros]

and what has the working class done lately?, what are they, but a bunch of alcohol drinking, legal and illegal pill popping, sports watching,porn watching, fast food eating couch potatos whos bellies are larger than their knowledge.

Honestly, most of those things apply to me, except for the bit about being fat. I must be super-working class, LOL.