What up with the Liberals being on here!

[The Red Next Door]

This place is smelling a little liberalish lately, anyone agree with me. I can't believe that people are standing up for the right fucking NAZI, it unbelievable.

[727Goon]

nice passive-aggressiveness bruh

[Tenka]

I've come to see, through long-time lurking prior to joining, that Revleft has always been 'liberalish'.

What can anyone do about it? ...Nothing.

[Vendetta]

I can't believe that people are standing up for the right fucking NAZI, it unbelievable.

Who?

[Jenkins]

you shouldn't begrudge people for being liberals. maybe they are here because they are interested in socialism and dont know much about it. The more supporters we have the better:thumbup1:

[leftace53]

Enh. We should just engage them in conversation, "show them the err of their ways", like jenkins said, they might be here to learn.

[Apoi_Viitor]

This place is smelling a little liberalish lately, anyone agree with me. I can't believe that people are standing up for the right fucking NAZI, it unbelievable.

:laugh:

Seriously though, quit *****ing. If you disagree with someone's "liberal" ideas, you should try and dissuade them through debate, not by whining.

[The Red Next Door]

you shouldn't begrudge people for being liberals. maybe they are here because they are interested in socialism and dont know much about it. The more supporters we have the better:thumbup1:

I am talking about the ones who called themselves anarchists and communists.

other liberals okay.

people called themselves anarcho and communists and speak this crap no better.

[Veg_Athei_Socialist]

I am talking about the ones who called themselves anarchists and communists.

other liberals okay.

people called themselves anarcho and communists and speak this crap no better.
You think anarcho-communists are liberals? Can you explain?

[The Red Next Door]

You think anarcho-communists are liberals? Can you explain?

No, I do not think anarcho-communists are liberals, i am talking about people who talk liberal crap like defend the nazis rights, and call themselves communist.

[The Red Next Door]

:laugh:

Seriously though, quit *****ing. If you disagree with someone's "liberal" ideas, you should try and dissuade them through debate, not by whining.

I am not whining.

[AK]

Everything is liberalism. Oh the horror.

[~Spectre]

Name names.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

time for a purge.

[RadioRaheem84]

I have noticed that a lot of the new posters have been somewhat liberal. Some even advocating reformist measures as a staple of leftist politics.

I wish to engage them in conversation but it sucks that a lot of new posters come in the with the presumption that Marxist Leninism, Maoism are the flip side to the "authoritarian coin" next to Fascism.

We have supposed comrades in here saying that Anarchism and Marxist Leninism are like oil and water and therefore are enemies and that we're simply akin to the extreme right, as if they believe that idiotic spectrum that has politics going in a circle.

It seems like reading Durrutti and Mao is strange to them. Reading Chomsky and Parenti is akin to being a schizo.

I am at a loss as to how lenient the mods have been lately. I remember being restricted the first time I ever came in here, for being an arrogant soc dem that held the exact same Hitch-ean/Harris views that are being displayed on here by certain posters. The only difference was that I was openly pro-war "leftist", yet I hocked the same material.

I would leave it alone, though. I've tried to mention it and call the mods, but it was fruitless. I was called out on it instead.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Name names.


Sounds kind of McCarthyish to me.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

time for a purge.


Sounds kind of Stalinist to me.

[Sam_b]

This should not be in the Politics section.

[scarletghoul]

It's worth mentioning that liberalism as an ideology is the problem, not liberals themselves. Blacklisting and purging certain members as liberals won't solve the problem; it is more important to point out liberal ideas and attitudes when they occur, and to combat them through clear explaining of how they are reactionary. Of course there are always one or two adamant anarchotrotskyoliberals who won't listen to a word and just say "stalinists think everyone who likes freedom is liberal!", they can fuck off, but in general it is better to fight the ideology rather than the people. That's why it's called 'combat liberalism' not 'combat liberals'

[GreenCommunism]

i certainly am not a social democrats but i will not respect any anti-fascist that doesn't understand the nazis, especially those who do not read from their point of view but books by capitalist. oh and what pisses me off to no end are communist who take the bourgeois views of fascism as opposed to the socialist critique of it. i will respect antifascist for their courage and many other things, but i will never respect their person if what they perceive as their ennemy is nothing but formed off ignorance much like the nazis perceive their ennemies. it doesn't mean their fight isn't just, i just think those exact same kind of people can be manipulated either way.

[Raúl Duke]

I am at a loss as to how lenient the mods have been lately. I remember being restricted the first time I ever came in here, for being an arrogant soc dem that held the exact same Hitch-ean/Harris views that are being displayed on here by certain posters. The only difference was that I was openly pro-war "leftist", yet I hocked the same material.

Arguably, part of the reason is, IMO, because there's no CC now.

[RedSonRising]

Arguably, part of the reason is, IMO, because there's no CC now.

How so? Did they serve as a sort of buffer zone or bridge between mods and non-CC posters?

I think allowing users that turn out to be liberals or Social Democrats to post is better than banishing them to restricted areas. Exchange and education through dialogue are always better than exclusivity and alienation. At least to a certain point.






Though I must admit...It was my dream to be in the CC...then they stole it from me :mad:

[Q]

This should not be in the Politics section.

Yeah, it should be in trash.

[RadioRaheem84]

Yeah, it should be in trash.

Why? This is a concern I have been having for a while, and it seems like other comrades have been noticing it too.

[RadioRaheem84]

Arguably, part of the reason is, IMO, because there's no CC now.


Sorry comrade, I do not follow. CC?

[RadioRaheem84]

I think allowing users that turn out to be liberals or Social Democrats to post is better than banishing them to restricted areas. Exchange and education through dialogue are always better than exclusivity and alienation. At least to a certain point.

I agree. I think though that liberalism has penetrated deep into leftist political discourse. It seems like being a Marxist Leninist or a Maoist around some leftists today is akin to being a fascist. I do not blame young and eager leftists to think that right off the bat, but if they totally ignore historical reality and refuse to listen to counter arguments to instead defend idealism, well then that just really gets on my nerves.

I think it comes with the pressure of being surrounded in a sea of liberalism that actually thinking, "hmm maybe the USSR was the lesser of two evil, not the other way around like the propaganda system tells me", may ostracize them from their peers.

[Red Commissar]

Sorry comrade, I do not follow. CC?

Commie Club. For those of you who don't know (by your join date you were around then, this is so no one else asks what it was). It was a concept originally where a group of approved members would be involved in the banning or restrictions of members, as well as the appointment of mods. They would debate this and make a poll, and the admins would act according to what was laid out in the thread.

For various reasons it was shut down from what I gather, and this is not the thread for that. Check these older threads to get an idea,

http://www.revleft.com/vb/commie-club-faq-t80225/index.html?t=80225
http://www.revleft.com/vb/should-commie-club-t125343/index.html?t=125343

[Q]

Why? This is a concern I have been having for a while, and it seems like other comrades have been noticing it too.

Perhaps, but you (plural) don't seem to go beyond some vague muttering about how Revleft is so liberal. As such this discussion is completely unproductive.

[durhamleft]

Those dastardly liberals have infiltrated us again. Darnations.

[The Red Next Door]

Yeah, it should be in trash.
Why?

[The Red Next Door]

Why? This is a concern I have been having for a while, and it seems like other comrades have been noticing it too.

Remember, he is a Trot and they do not like us calling them out on their liberalism. Now let me shut up before i get punish by the rev stasi.

[Q]

Why?

See my reply at post #28.


Remember, he is a Trot and they do not like us calling them out on their liberalism. Now let me shut up before i get punish by the rev stasi.
This only confirms my view that you're only trolling about. Well done.

[The Red Next Door]

This only confirms my view that you're only trolling about. Well done.


I am not trolling about. why any critique about your politics is trolling and I said that because I heard that, due to the cc critiquing you too much, you had it shut down. so i probably will get a punishment from you, because i criticize you.

[The Red Next Door]

Perhaps, but you (plural) don't seem to go beyond some vague muttering about how Revleft is so liberal. As such this discussion is completely unproductive.


It is not unproductive, we just wondering why, this forum is getting so liberalish. Which I find ironic because of the closing of the CC.

[Dimentio]

moved to chit-chat

[Q]

I am not trolling about. why any critique about your politics is trolling and I said that because I heard that, due to the cc critiquing you too much, you had it shut down. so i probably will get a punishment from you, because i criticize you.
You don't get "punished" (whatever that means) for criticizing anyone. This is a discussion forum, critique is an inherent part of debates. Your critique must have some substance though in order to be considered or taken seriously. Simply yelling that the forum, and apparently Trotskyists in particular, is "liberal" tells me nothing. The CC was shut down for different reasons than you're portraying here.

[The Red Next Door]

You don't get "punished" (whatever that means) for criticizing anyone. This is a discussion forum, critique is an inherent part of debates. Your critique must have some substance though in order to be considered or taken seriously. Simply yelling that the forum, and apparently Trotskyists in particular, is "liberal" tells me nothing. The CC was shut down for different reasons than you're portraying here.


I am just starting what i heard about the CC being shut down, i am not sure, if it true or not.

[Q]

I am just starting what i heard about the CC being shut down, i am not sure, if it true or not.

The CC was a subforum of users that could co-opt new users to it. It was an experiment in running the forum democratically, which lasted for a few years. It however had some serious limitations in that it was basically just used to start one drama wave after another and last December it was determined that it had to be closed down as things simply got out of hand. The forum had the second most threads and posts of all subforums, just behind Politics, which surely was an indication of the community having an obsession more with playing a simulated "democracy" in which they could just whine forever, than at discussing politics, which is what this forum is for.

Anyway, this is rather offtopic. You still haven't answered how the forum is supposedly "liberal".

[The Red Next Door]

The CC was a subforum of users that could co-opt new users to it. It was an experiment in running the forum democratically, which lasted for a few years. It however had some serious limitations in that it was basically just used to start one drama wave after another and last December it was determined that it had to be closed down as things simply got out of hand. The forum had the second most threads and posts of all subforums, just behind Politics, which surely was an indication of the community having an obsession more with playing a simulated "democracy" in which they could just whine forever, than at discussing politics, which is what this forum is for.

Anyway, this is rather offtopic. You still haven't answered how the forum is supposedly "liberal".

I am not saying that revleft is liberal as whole, but i find it odd that people are defending people, who would not give us the same rights and all this pro establishment crap, that certain people been speaking.

[Il Medico]

Am I the only one who has noticed that the right wing of Leftism (Ml's, Maoist, etc) use the same insults as the regular right wing?

Why do I notice this? Cause I am a Ultra Left Liberal Scumbag. :redstar2000:

[ContrarianLemming]

This place is smelling a little liberalish lately, anyone agree with me. I can't believe that people are standing up for the right fucking NAZI, it unbelievable.

ask again: who? name names.

[Jazzratt]

You've just reminded me of this hilarious train wreck (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=213) of a group.I liked their "practical programme for fighting liberalism on revleft". Also quite a few of them were the same members that made lists of their negative rep comments.

[Jazzhands]

I am not saying that revleft is liberal as whole, but i find it odd that people are defending people, who would not give us the same rights and all this pro establishment crap, that certain people been speaking.

If any of us were pro-establishment we wouldn't be on Revleft. hence the REV in the title. Try again. And name names this time. But I want an actual fact, not some vague rambling that makes you sound like you work for Fox News.

[Tablo]

They won't name names because the second they do it will be obvious they are just whining about nothing.

[The Red Next Door]

Am I the only one who has noticed that the right wing of Leftism (Ml's, Maoist, etc) use the same insults as the regular right wing?

Why do I notice this? Cause I am a Ultra Left Liberal Scumbag. :redstar2000:

I hate being called a fucking right winger boy!!!! now you gonna die! this ML city TEXAS!

[gorillafuck]

When were people standing up for the rights of nazis?

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Unforunatley its obvious that many people have libearal ideas/valeus, since it is the currently dominated ideology, wich means that moste people have being raised with it. It is a real problem that we allways, as socialists of all tendencies, must combat by giving realistic/materialistic arguments ans views, making people questioning theire should i say belifes?

[RadioRaheem84]

You want me to name names? Fine. NGN is one. Just saying. Some of the stuff he says is rather liberal-ish.

[Jazzhands]

Remember, he is a Trot and they do not like us calling them out on their liberalism. Now let me shut up before i get punish by the rev stasi.

Since when is the Stasi liberal? :rolleyes: this to me is proof that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

[The Red Next Door]

if any of us were pro-establishment we wouldn't be on revleft. Hence the rev in the title. Try again. And name names this time. But i want an actual fact, not some vague rambling that makes you sound like you work for fox news.

ngnm

[Lyev]

Remember, he is a Trot and they do not like us calling them out on their liberalism. Now let me shut up before i get punish by the rev stasi.yeah fucking petit-bourgeois intellectualism, most are anti-worker students! I wish they would stop wasting their time on revleft and get a life already jeez! :mad:

[Raúl Duke]

The fact that no names are mention makes me see this thread as pointless whining.

Perhaps it isn't even "iberalism," just another case of "waahhhhhh I can't make this person(s) accept the validity of my perspective/position."

[727Goon]

I imagine Red thinks I am liberal, since I support freedom of speech and oppose throwing people into concentration camps on the basis of politics alone. I'm also a staunch anti-fascist and certainly dont think neo nazis have the "right" to harass or intimidate people, and oppose giving fascists a platform to espouse their bullshit. But I guess we're playing the "Blow things way the fuck out of proportion" game so not supporting gulags and purges and shit makes me a liberal, apparently.

[Widerstand]

We can see who's a liberal counter-revolutionary by checking who opposes Gulags and public executions of Cappies and Fascists! Line them up right next to them!

[Sam_b]

I tend to find that most people who are on RL whining about 'Liberals' seem to have pretty liberal attitudes themselves.

[ContrarianLemming]

So here we are! revleft, all these liberals surround us! Liberals everywhere!

cept I don't see any!
I mean, ONE name was names as being liberal (NGN) and he was actually described as "liberal-ish".

Redickulous thread, theres not a liberal in site, theres people with specifically a more libertarian view on freedom of speech, but honestly, since when was this a liberal view?

I idea that people should be able to say whateer they want no matter what waaaay predates liberalism.

I'd also point out that in the thread which this starts in the learning section had members - including myself - stating they did not care what fascists said and that they should be free to say it, but consistently, throughout the thread, opposing members routinly said that the former members supported the freedom of fascists to organize actions and attacks.

Basically the same demonization we get all the time, without anyone noticing that the difference between freedom to speak and freedom to take actions.

Freedom of accociation takes precendence.

[RadioRaheem84]

OK, now people are whining about the comrades whining about liberals. Though, how no one can at least NGN as a bit of a liberal is beyond me.

[Telenus]

ask again: who? name names.

You. Because you defended Fascist and their right to express their political beliefs.

[Il Medico]

Hey guyz, barricade your doors and arm yourselves with shotguns. The liberals are everywhere! :lol:

[gorillafuck]

Hey guyz, barricade your doors and arm yourselves with shotguns. The liberals are everywhere! :lol:
We should form a militia.

[Bilan]

hahahahaha

[The Red Next Door]

The fact that no names are mention makes me see this thread as pointless whining.

Perhaps it isn't even "iberalism," just another case of "waahhhhhh I can't make this person(s) accept the validity of my perspective/position."
contrarianLemming

727Goon

iRevolt

NGNM85- STRAIGHT UP FUCKING LIBERAL

Peace on Earth

[AK]

contrarianLemming

727Goon

iRevolt

NGNM85- STRAIGHT UP FUCKING LIBERAL

Peace on Earth
Liberalism:


a political orientation that favors social progress by reform and by changing laws rather than by revolution
an economic theory advocating free competition and a self-regulating market

Anarchism: political and socio-economical ideology which advocates the destruction of hierarchical social relations (including - but not limited to - class-based society and the state) and the monetary system by means of revolution in favour of a system of co-operative democratic horizontal organisations and voluntary labour.

---

Now shut the fuck up.

[Qayin]

a political orientation that favors social progress by reform and by changing laws rather than by revolution
NGNM85 to the max

[Q]

You. Because you defended Fascist and their right to express their political beliefs.

I smell sockpuppet.

Anyway, now that we have some names, could someone explain how these people are "liberals"? That is, by the definition AK so readily provided? If you use a different definition, do provide it too.

[synthesis]

contrarianLemming

727Goon

iRevolt

NGNM85- STRAIGHT UP FUCKING LIBERAL

Peace on Earth

Who cares? The fact that these people are unrestricted is hardly the most damning evidence of the direction the forum is taking.


I have noticed that a lot of the new posters have been somewhat liberal. Some even advocating reformist measures as a staple of leftist politics.

Wait... can someone please remind me why (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Guesde)Marx said, "I am not a Marxist"?



We have supposed comrades in here saying that Anarchism and Marxist Leninism are like oil and water and therefore are enemies and that we're simply akin to the extreme right

That has been taking place for almost a century and a half now. Is this really that controversial of an assertion?

[AK]

NGNM85 to the max
Interesting. Proof?

[Nuvem]

I don't feel like Revleft is being overrun with liberals, but there are a lot of people with liberal sentiments here on Revleft. I find that too many Anarchists never completely come out of their liberal shell and too many of the non-Communist Socialists (I count myself among them) are far too similar to Social Democrats. More than anything I think this stems from a softness towards the enemy and black and white morality, the "all or nothing" idea.

A lot of this seems to be materializing as talks about freedom of speech, if I'm not mistaken The Red Next Door started this thread in the wake of a thread from Learning about whether or not Marxist-Leninists and Maoists were against freedom of expression, in which I argued the point that such rights should be restricted post-revolution the in the cases of reactionaries such as fascists, racial supremacist organizations and monarchists in select countries where doing so would be prudent. This sparked quite a debate, which branched off several times from multiple debates occurring simultaneously. The whole thread is now 13 pages.

That wasn't the first thread covering the topic either. There have been others in the past(such as the also much-debated thread, "Why Deny Them a Platform?") and there inevitably will be more in the future.

The libertarian Left is standing parallel to the Authoritarian Left and non-authoritarian anti-Fascist hardliners such as myself. The core of the issue is the debate over whether or not exceptions must be made to laws regarding "inalienable rights". Is it correct for a Left society, whether it be Communist, Socialist, or Anarchist, to censor the rights to expression for politically active ideological enemies from the extreme Right? This question is one of the fundamental cruxes of the liberal vs. Revolutionary issue.

On Revleft liberalism or at least what is perceived as liberalism manifests as a softness towards the enemy. I fully agree that it is a travesty to restrict rights of expression and it is a sad day when a group is censored. It is a far worse day when Fascist organizations start to spring up in your community. People disregard the reactionary ideologies as being infantile or not something to be taken seriously, but that is irresponsible and is exactly the attitude a Fascist would want us to have. It seems people forget; They want to kill you. Every Fascist alive wants to see the Revolutionary Left killed to the last and so do most Nationalists and Monarchists (the latter is insignificant in the USA and most of Europe, not so much so in places like Oman which still has a near-absolute monarch). Even many die-hard Republicans and Tea Partiers (who are bordering on Nationalism) want to see us dead. And every one of the above would leap at the opportunity to restrict our rights to expression. Put a few Tea Party candidates in Congress and watch them start discussing blocking Revleft in the USA. You might be laughing right now, but it would have happened if the internet was around circa 1955.

This is what I call liberalism on Revleft; those who do not have the proper revolutionary mentality, those who would go soft on the reactionaries and allow them to dig tunnels in the underground of society converting children, the confused, poor, lost and ostracized to Fascism and racial Nationalism. The ones who I consider liberals on Revleft are just that:

Liberalism, noun: a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties; specifically : such a philosophy that considers government as a crucial instrument for amelioration of social inequities (as those involving race, gender, or class)Nearly all of us can identify with at least a modicum of what is listed here, but what separates the Left-leaning Liberals from the Revolutionary Leftists is the insistence on inherent human goodness. That is why I use terms like "idealism" and "pragmatism" to describe the former and the latter. There are those of us who believe that mankind is essentially good and that our goodness is suppressed by the few greedy, corrupt individuals who rule our lives. There are those of us who believe that mankind is essentially greedy and indecent and rule and structure must be imposed to force them to become good. Both are incorrect. The truth is that greed, hatred and intolerance are products of upbringing and societal pressure on young minds. Eliminate the society of greed and hate, and with tremendous effort these things can be lessened.
No pragmatic, practical revolutionary would stand up for those who would poison the minds of our youth, fight social progress and hinder the march towards equality, justice and morality.

We call ourselves the Revolutionary Left, and it's time we start acting like it. There will be no peaceful transfer of power, there will be a reaction, there will be violence, people will die. Do not let those lost lives, whether of the revolutionaries or the reactionaries, go in vain by allowing reactionaries to run amok within the revolutionary society! It is the moral price we all must pay so that in the future our great great grandchildren will not have to.

[ZeroNowhere]

What's up with the number of threads created for the soul purpose of asking a question in order to attack somebody?

Oh, right, Thomas Sankara.


Wait... can someone please remind me why Marx said, "I am not a Marxist"?
Yes. (http://libcom.org/forums/theory/context-marxs-i-am-not-marxist-quote-09062009) Hint: It was not because he thought of a group as too dogmatic, but to disassociate himself with their ideas, so pretty much the exact opposite. It was also not an objection to a term, but to a specific group.

[ContrarianLemming]

Still no explanation as to what makes myself and others liberals.

I believe that, through the use of a general workers strike based on the ideals of class war and solidarity, in conjuction with workers revolution based on Socialism from below, a stateless classless society based on Confederation, Direct Democracy, Workers control and Communal Ownership should be founded, strenghtened by a confederal congress of proxy representitives/delegates, a Charter garunteeing basic rights, including workers control and Council democracy. I Believe in the liberation of all peoples from capitalism and state socialism. I want decentralised power whereby we will have federations of autonomous workers councils proxy representing each community/borough/region with the absoute minimum of hierarchy.

liberalism!

c'mon, get real, this is because you got your toes stepped on when I explained that we shouldn't care about what fascists say, and that each commune may deal with them in there way. In which case I the "liberal anarchists" had to jump through the liberal hoops to appease these sectarian pricks, you're just looking for any excuse to make everyone else look bad.

Of ocurse we even have to put up with the stereotypical idea that anarchists all "used to be liberals" and "too many Anarchists never completely come out of their liberal shell" which is rather witless and no different then "all anarchists are quite young".

for your infomation comrade, I was raised in a marxist family :p

[Sam_b]

You all suck

[Chambered Word]

You lot are witch hunting, liberal attitudes are not that prevalent on RevLeft, although you will see them now and then and usually from newer members and I'm all for patiently explaining to them why these ideas are unreasonable. However, I think everyone is making a mountain out of a molehill.


I tend to find that most people who are on RL whining about 'Liberals' seem to have pretty liberal attitudes themselves.


You've just reminded me of this hilarious train wreck (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=213) of a group.I liked their "practical programme for fighting liberalism on revleft". Also quite a few of them were the same members that made lists of their negative rep comments.

+1


They won't name names because the second they do it will be obvious they are just whining about nothing.

You hit the nail right on the head. Bailey likes to whine about my 'liberalism' but when I told him to prove I was a liberal he didn't reply. :rolleyes:

[RadioRaheem84]

Interesting. Proof? I do not care about anyone else besides NGN when it comes to liberalism.

God, I could list nearly two full posts of crap that he has posted on here.

It would get down to my very last nerve that I have actually have to prove this considering the amount of stuff he has posted on here.

People either have not read his stuff or are completely ignoring the guy, as are many in here.

I mean this really pisses me off. We spend a lot of good time having great debates and discussions and someone like NGNM85 derails it with some stupid reformist or liberal shit. I get pissed, wonder who else is actually reading what I am reading, coming from him, and I get shit for calling him out or for even insinuating that he is a brazen wannabe anarchist with a seriously distorted Hitchean/Harris worldview.

Am I going mad or something? Is there something about this guy you all like? Is this a giant joke and you guys leave him to roam around the forum talking about "corporate communism" or "corporate mercantilism" or what not, or cut and paste whatever Sam Harris derived stuff to give credence to his idealistic battle against religion, mocking us for trying to inject some materialist outlook on the situation? I mean, what! Saying that Tony Blair and Hillary Clinton are leftists? Doesn't even know what leftism stands for and keeps describing the term in these idealistic platitudes. Keeps chiding some of the comrades because we dared laugh at the idea of supporting hypocritical reformist measures that he thinks is dire for all leftists to support. Saying that we must uphold and protect the "project of western civilization".

I mean, what the fuck? What more fucking proof do you want?

The other comrades I have no qualms with. When it gets down to it they're true class allies. We might disagree on somethings which I find "liberal-ish" or idealist, but when it comes to NGNM85, I think the mods are either snoozing on this guy or just don't care.

I mean, it wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't so damn brazen about being so wrong.

[Sam_b]

fap fap fap

[RadioRaheem84]

fap fap fap


Sam now is not the time to be playing with yourself.

Lets get back to the discussion.

No but seriously, all masturbation aside Sam, what is it about NGN that you somehow do not believe he is liberal?

I mean most are really vague about his presence. Since you volunteered. Maybe you could shed some light.

[Sam_b]

what is it about NGN that you somehow do not believe he is liberal?


The fact of the matter is that I couldn't give a flying fuck if he is liberal or not, but you can continue your crusade which nobody actually cares about if you like.

I'm likely to find the argument quite thin coming from a user that went on a big rant a bout those 'darn capitalists stealing our leftist symbols!!!!!!'.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Alright, lets set up a bunch of mods who ban people for liberal-leaning thoughts/posts.

Problem solved.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Revleft's liberal 5th column has finally been exposed!

[RadioRaheem84]

The fact of the matter is that I couldn't give a flying fuck if he is liberal or not, but you can continue your crusade which nobody actually cares about if you like.

I'm likely to find the argument quite thin coming from a user that went on a big rant a bout those 'darn capitalists stealing our leftist symbols!!!!!!'.


You're still on that? That thread was more for shits and giggles about how pathetic cappies are that they cannot even be original in their ad campaigns. Why did that bother you so much? That's just weird, but hey it's your thing man. You can keep fap fap fapping on about that one.

Secondly, so you do not care if he is a liberal or not, yet you seemed fumed about comrades in here calling out supposed liberals? When I actually name someone that just might be one, you do not care?

[Il Medico]

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i50/mhacker97/Liberal.jpg

[Sam_b]

Secondly, so you do not care if he is a liberal or not, yet you seemed fumed about comrades in here calling out supposed liberals? When I actually name someone that just might be one, you do not care?

I couldn't care because its a god-damn messageboard that has little to no influence in the stuggle.

I care a lot more about Nazis on the streets, anti-union laws and anti-imperialist activity than going 'prolier-than-thou' internet hardman and calling someone out.

[RadioRaheem84]

I couldn't care because its a god-damn messageboard that has little to no influence in the stuggle.

I care a lot more about Nazis on the streets, anti-union laws and anti-imperialist activity than going 'prolier-than-thou' internet hardman and calling someone out.

So that's what really bothers you? I will cease my "prolier-than-thou" crusade considering that I've grown used to NGN's posts and the utter reluctance by mods to really do anything about it.

Also, I would give revleft a little more credit than disparaging it like that, Sam.

I've received some good advice on parties to join and connected with comrades in my area. So it's not totally useless in the struggle.

[Sam_b]

Also, I would give revleft a little more credit than disparaging it like that, Sam.

Then apart from advice on a myriad of organisations what has RL actually done in the immediate furtherment of the class struggle? Let's phrase this question in mind that the majority of workers do not have the internet.

[ContrarianLemming]

'prolier-than-thou'

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


Then apart from advice on a myriad of organisations what has RL actually done in the immediate furtherment of the class struggle?

Advice is rather important, as is teaching, revleft has thought many leftists about our ideas, just one part of the greater leftist internet, all contributing and propagandising. It's all good

[The Red Next Door]

I couldn't care because its a god-damn messageboard that has little to no influence in the stuggle.

I care a lot more about Nazis on the streets, anti-union laws and anti-imperialist activity than going 'prolier-than-thou' internet hardman and calling someone out.

I am Just asking a simple question.

[Sam_b]

just one part of the greater leftist internet


the majority of workers do not have the internet

The leftist movement is not the class.

[ContrarianLemming]

the majority of workers do not have the internet

I assume you're refering to the third world?
in which case that a question of theory, since i think a revolution must take place in the first world for it to have worldwide long lasting affects, a socialist revolution in the third world is simply marginalized and sanctioned, as we see over and over, they can never expand.

[Sam_b]

I assume you're refering to the third world?

No, I'm not.

[RadioRaheem84]

Then apart from advice on a myriad of organisations what has RL actually done in the immediate furtherment of the class struggle? Let's phrase this question in mind that the majority of workers do not have the internet. I do not have internet yet come to revleft by using my apartment computer lab. I went from a brazen pro war liberal hawk fresh from college, Economist reading, J.Crew wearing snob, about to enter corporate America. I used to troll revleft as an Orwell wannabe named JudeObscure84 and chide others in here for not being "leftist" enough because of their lack of support for the Iraq War and their apologizing for religious extremism by describing their social and material conditions.

Now after I lost the opportunity I had once out of college, I am working at a bookstore, took the year off and started reading many of the posts on here and my views started to change. I read Marx, Engels, Bakunin, Chomsky, Zinn, Parenti, The Monthly Review School, etc. I volunteer at the local anarchist co-op bookstore. I attend lectures at the local ISO chapter here in my city.

I applied to an Ivy, got in, and am making contact with some comrades in that town to start up a socialist/leftist campus groups and am thinking about being extremely active unlike the first time I was in college. Ivies have nearly unlimited resources and I intend to use them.

I learned debate tactics here, the presumptions of capitalist thinking, made an ass out of myself by asking stupid questions to learn stuff. Almost daily read some of the best posts against right winger in OI I have ever seen. The comrades we have on here are extremely educated and well read beyond anything I have ever seen on any political forum. Bailey187 lives in a library or something!

I went from not getting what the hell the labour theory of value entailed (I was an Econ major in college too) to understanding Kapital, which I thought I would never do.

Believe me revleft is way more valuable than you think, Sam.

[ContrarianLemming]

No, I'm not.

then this is not true, over 50% of Europeans use the internet, over 70% Americans use it according to internet usage statistics.

[RadioRaheem84]

I don't know Sam. Maybe you know of some better sites? I mean I am relatively still a newbie to all this. But the content of the posts on here, no matter how low you think of it, is still worlds apart from Daily Kos, Democratic Underground or any popular mainstream stuff.

[The Red Next Door]

I don't know Sam. Maybe you know of some better sites? I mean I am relatively still a newbie to all this. But the content of the posts on here, no matter how low you think of it, is still worlds apart from Daily Kos, Democratic Underground or any popular mainstream stuff.


Sam is just a fucking snob.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

I dont want to throw out some names, because i dont hink that we are being infiltrated by some liberal spies, no, the thing is that as liberalism have shaped our society, it has also shaped moste of our minds, that includes all of us, and we must questioning this. But i admit that its contra-productive to just call someone liberal just because they dont share your opinion, reminds me of the ooold days when you could scream "witch" and frome there the case was closed.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Sam is just a fucking snob.

Better ban him, he could be a liberal spy.

[RadioRaheem84]

Mike made the best point on here. What we're dealing with is the introduction of some liberal principles and ideals that have shaped our understanding of history and somewhat distorted it.

We somehow almost instinctively think that denying fascists a big platform is a suppression of free speech, even it means costing the lives others to preserve an ideal. This is a liberal concept and it's unworkable except for those in higher positions who can afford to consolidate the most free speech.

There is also the notion that we almost react with fear of being exposed as anti-freedom for defending the former socialist states. As if they weren't the lesser of two evils, when imperial powers were economically subjecting third world nations to despotism and extreme poverty.

So I do just want to throw out the word and call people out anymore than I just want to address the impracticality of liberalism and show that it's more rational to have a materialist outlook.

[The Red Next Door]

I dont want to throw out some names, because i dont hink that we are being infiltrated by some liberal spies, no, the thing is that as liberalism have shaped our society, it has also shaped moste of our minds, that includes all of us, and we must questioning this. But i admit that its contra-productive to just call someone liberal just because they dont share your opinion, reminds me of the ooold days when you could scream "witch" and frome there the case was closed.


Again I am just asking.

[Sam_b]

then this is not true, over 50% of Europeans use the internet, over 70% Americans use it according to internet usage statistics.

By 'no' I am referring to all workers. I thought this was obvious.


Maybe you know of some better sites?

This is not the point at all. It isn't about the internet.

[black magick hustla]

This place is smelling a little liberalish lately, anyone agree with me. I can't believe that people are standing up for the right fucking NAZI, it unbelievable.
says the guy from the psl

[black magick hustla]

liberals in WWII prolly murdered more nazis than the commies btw. theres nothing revolutionary about hating people everybody already hates

[RadioRaheem84]

This is not the point at all. It isn't about the internet.

Then what is your point?

[Lyev]

Then what is your point?I think the point of contention is that revLeft (being an internet forum) is no way tantamount to actual activism. It may help individuals, myself included, learn a great deal about economics, history, philosophy, politics, capitalism, class etc. etc. but I am under no illusions that what goes on here is somehow connected or representative of what goes in the real world. 99% of proletarian-based activists will not have heard of revleft obviously. And of course, real-life working class struggle is not going to grow out of revleft, in the grand scheme of things. Anyway, the point I am trying to get across is that the liberal views espoused by some people, consciously or not, on here are not representative of liberal views aired by those involved in the general socialist* movement, if that makes sense.

(I use socialist in a very broad - to encompass all radical, anti-capitalist views; anything from anarchism to Hoxhaism)

[RadioRaheem84]

I think the point of contention is that revLeft (being an internet forum) is no way tantamount to actual activism. It may help individuals, myself included, learn a great deal about economics, history, philosophy, politics, capitalism, class etc. etc. but I am under no illusions that what goes on here is somehow connected or representative of what goes in the real world. 99% of proletarian-based activists will not have heard of revleft obviously. And of course, real-life working class struggle is not going to grow out of revleft, in the grand scheme of things. Anyway, the point I am trying to get across is that the liberal views espoused by some people, consciously or not, on here are not representative of liberal views aired by those involved in the general socialist* movement, if that makes sense.

(I use socialist in a very broad - to encompass all radical, anti-capitalist views; anything from anarchism to Hoxhaism)

While this is true, in the information age, one would think that revleft would serve a purpose to share ideas and even sources on stuff that might be hard to find on our own.

[Widerstand]

99% of proletarian-based activists will not have heard of revleft obviously.

Why? I'd think the proletariat can afford internet access at least occasionally in most parts of the world.

[Lyev]

Why? I'd think the proletariat can afford internet access at least occasionally in most parts of the world.Fine, go to your next branch meeting and advertise revleft then.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

This thread shows a direct corroleation between revleft posters and incredulious stupidity.

[Widerstand]

Fine, go to your next branch meeting and advertise revleft then.

Why would I do that? This site is pretty much useless for anything but theory and knowledge, which most people prefer to get from books or other print media, and if I weren't such a huge social retard and heartbroken as hell, I'd actually go outside instead of reading and participating in discussions here. I mean, if someone told me he'd want a place to discuss leftist stuff, ask questions etc, I'd prolly point him here, though.

edit: So from a quick glance at the Learning forum, is calling anti-statists "liberals" the new modus operandi for Leninists running out of arguments?

[Bilan]

I do not care about anyone else besides NGN when it comes to liberalism.

God, I could list nearly two full posts of crap that he has posted on here.

It would get down to my very last nerve that I have actually have to prove this considering the amount of stuff he has posted on here.

People either have not read his stuff or are completely ignoring the guy, as are many in here.

I mean this really pisses me off. We spend a lot of good time having great debates and discussions and someone like NGNM85 derails it with some stupid reformist or liberal shit. I get pissed, wonder who else is actually reading what I am reading, coming from him, and I get shit for calling him out or for even insinuating that he is a brazen wannabe anarchist with a seriously distorted Hitchean/Harris worldview.

Am I going mad or something? Is there something about this guy you all like? Is this a giant joke and you guys leave him to roam around the forum talking about "corporate communism" or "corporate mercantilism" or what not, or cut and paste whatever Sam Harris derived stuff to give credence to his idealistic battle against religion, mocking us for trying to inject some materialist outlook on the situation? I mean, what! Saying that Tony Blair and Hillary Clinton are leftists? Doesn't even know what leftism stands for and keeps describing the term in these idealistic platitudes. Keeps chiding some of the comrades because we dared laugh at the idea of supporting hypocritical reformist measures that he thinks is dire for all leftists to support. Saying that we must uphold and protect the "project of western civilization".

I mean, what the fuck? What more fucking proof do you want?

The other comrades I have no qualms with. When it gets down to it they're true class allies. We might disagree on somethings which I find "liberal-ish" or idealist, but when it comes to NGNM85, I think the mods are either snoozing on this guy or just don't care.

I mean, it wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't so damn brazen about being so wrong.

You realise that that post was of no substance, right? Not a link, not a bit of proof.
Why should we care?

[synthesis]

This forum is quite useful for educating people as to the various positions of different leftist perspectives about many, many issues. It's a gateway drug, so to speak.


Yes. (http://www.anonym.to/?http://libcom.org/forums/theory/context-marxs-i-am-not-marxist-quote-09062009) Hint: It was not because he thought of a group as too dogmatic, but to disassociate himself with their ideas, so pretty much the exact opposite. It was also not an objection to a term, but to a specific group.I'm not sure one way or another - you've obviously researched this far more than I - but MIA cites Origins of the French Labour Movement, by Bernard Moss, as the origin of the Guesde/reformism interpretation, and your thread on LibCom doesn't seem to indicate that you've read it.

It's available on Google Books. Of particular interest is Chapter 4, which primarily deals with the Parti Ouvrier. The passage in question is on page 116; MIA must be using a different publication of Moss's book.


Though Guesde and Lafargue represented the rudiments of Marxism in France, they were severely chastised by Marx for their practical errors, for indulging in "revolutionary phrase-ology," denying the revolutionary value of reformist struggles and ignoring the progressive role of Radicalism. If this was Marxism, Marx told his "Bakuninist" son-in-law, he was not a Marxist.

I'm not saying that this takes precedence over your interpretation - but it does seem that way.

[Blackscare]

says the guy from the psl

PSL is actually one of the more hardline left parties in the US that has more than three members.


liberals in WWII prolly murdered more nazis than the commies btw. theres nothing revolutionary about hating people everybody already hates

wat.

You do know that the USSR had more to do with destroying Nazism than any other country, right? ffs man

[AK]

edit: So from a quick glance at the Learning forum, is calling anti-statists "liberals" the new modus operandi for Leninists running out of arguments?
Well it's not exactly new.

[Widerstand]

I've just never seen it before.

Yes, yes, I'm quite new myself.

I know.

But I don't worry too much, being new goes away with time!

[Quail]

I've just never seen it before.

Yes, yes, I'm quite new myself.

I know.

But I don't worry too much, being new goes away with time!

Liberal scum!

[AK]

http://aejjabaad.webs.com/liberals%20everywhere.jpg

[Widerstand]

http://aejjabaad.webs.com/liberals%20everywhere.jpg

Ingenious.

[Imposter Marxist]

No, I'm not.
Most of the workers in the factory I work in don't even have computers.

[Il Medico]

You realise that that post was of no substance, right? Not a link, not a bit of proof.
Why should we care?
We shouldn't.

[RadioRaheem84]

Yeah it's best to just let it go. I posted no links or posts so it's best not to pry. Fuck off.

[RadioRaheem84]

You realise that that post was of no substance, right? Not a link, not a bit of proof.
Why should we care?

Oh god it's not like you cannot click over to some of the other threads. Just fuck it and you to Bilan. I'm through.

[Bilan]

Oh god it's not like you cannot click over to some of the other threads. Just fuck it and you to Bilan. I'm through.

Don't be such a petulant brat. I'm not willing to sift through someones posts to see if dey'z is a lIbeRaL.
Why? Well, there are two main reasons.
1. Because most of the time when people make claims like this, they are bullshit.
2. Because I don't care, or see the point in going and heckling a liberal on here.

[Bilan]

And any threads in particular?

[RadioRaheem84]

Just fuck it. You're right. Let it be. I am sick of all the bickering. I just want to get back to discussing theory.

[Sam_b]

Why do you always become sick of the bickering etc, when it has been your bicering that has always started it?

Anyway, I take Lyev's line on this. The point is the internet is completely irrelevant to the struggle and I couldn't care how many liberals are on it. Saying otherwise would be tantamount to saying that StormFront has a lot of influence and power. It doesn't.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Who gives a fuck whether something is "liberal" or not? If it works, do it. If it doesn't, don't. It really gets up my nose when people think using political descriptors as cuss-words is somehow a replacement for actual criticism. I suspect it forms part of an "us and them" mindset that uses ideologies as arbitrary dividers, instead of the usual ones such as class, nationality and "race".

For example, NGNM's ideas regarding nuclear proliferation aren't stupid because they are or come from a "liberal" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean these days), but because they won't work.

[RadioRaheem84]

Why do you always become sick of the bickering etc, when it has been your bicering that has always started it?

Anyway, I take Lyev's line on this. The point is the internet is completely irrelevant to the struggle and I couldn't care how many liberals are on it. Saying otherwise would be tantamount to saying that StormFront has a lot of influence and power. It doesn't.

Why are you act like I start bickering all the time? You're exagerating. I've only been rather confrontational at al the past couple of weeks over this same topic. I don't just start shit.

Damn, Sam, even that was a bit much.

[Widerstand]

I don't just start shit..

This thread.

[ContrarianLemming]

the free speech thread in learning got this started, which NGN was part of, along with all theo ther named liberals.

[Chambered Word]

brb purging libs from RL

[Bilan]

brb purging libs from RL

I lol'd and then realised you were a SAlt.
So now I hate you.
xxx

[Sam_b]

Damn, Sam, even that was a bit much.

bawww

[727Goon]

727Goon


Only if you consider Emma Goldman, Bakunin, and like every anarchist ever a liberal. I'm an anarchist and a black nationalist. That's like the antithesis of liberalism.

[black magick hustla]

Only if you consider Emma Goldman, Bakunin, and like every anarchist ever a liberal. I'm an anarchist and a black nationalist. That's like the antithesis of liberalism.

idk about that but you are a walking paradox. workers of the world have no country, and in that statement it is implied ethnicity

[727Goon]

Anarchists can support national liberation. How do you feel about the Zapatistas?

[black magick hustla]

this is another discussion. there are many things that the zapatistas are, including good and bad things, but the issue here is that they are not a revolutionary group by any means. they are an indigenist group, and their main concern is to be recognized by the mexican state. i think many westerners dont really get this btw

[black magick hustla]

Anarchists can support national liberation. How do you feel about the Zapatistas?

also, i guess it depends on what you mean by anarchists. certainly, particularly in the US, there are some people who call themselves anarchists and support national liberation. i dont think it is a question of being an anarchist or not, but of class politics

[Os Cangaceiros]

certainly, particularly in the US, there are some people who call themselves anarchists and support national liberation.

The Wayne Price tendency of anarchism.

[revolution inaction]

Anarchists can support national liberation. How do you feel about the Zapatistas?
no they can't you fuck wit :mad:
i don't know enough about the zapatistas to comment, if they do libatarian communist stuff then I support that, if they suport national liberation i oppose that. If they attempt the do both then, if i had the opportunity, then i would encourage them to take there communists tendencies further and to abandon there reactionary ones.

[RadioRaheem84]

Did not Chomsky support the National Liberation Army of Vietnam?

[Jazzratt]

Did not Chomsky support the National Liberation Army of Vietnam? Oh right well that's it all sorted then. As the pope of anarchism wills it national liberation has been endorsed by the pope of anarchism so obviously any who are not in full agreement with that doctrine are, now and forever, apostates.

[RadioRaheem84]

Of course!

[Bilan]

Did not Chomsky support the National Liberation Army of Vietnam?

Didn't Bakunin have it in for Jews and women?

[AK]

Anarchists can support national liberation. How do you feel about the Zapatistas?
They are an interesting experiment - a mix of indigenous nationalism and anti-capitalism.

Anyhow, http://libcom.org/library/against-nationalism

You cannot support national liberation whilst still being a principled class-struggle-anarchist. Well, not unless the entire ethnic group are members of the same class (incredibly doubtful). As anarchists, we have to unite on a class basis. If I were to liberate the nation of Somalia right now, that would necessarily entail the emancipation of Somali capitalists. Also, national liberation in itself can never achieve working-class emancipation - without class consciousness, the working class can not and does not capture the means of production or bring down the walls of class-based society. It instead focuses on arbitrary things like national self-determination and political representation. It is simply class collaboration.

Also, national identity is very vague and in the end you are a member of whatever nation you feel like. Am I Hungarian, Ukrainian, Slovakian, Serbian or Australian? It's pretty fucking stupid.

[727Goon]

They are an interesting experiment - a mix of indigenous nationalism and anti-capitalism.

Anyhow, http://libcom.org/library/against-nationalism

You cannot support national liberation whilst still being a principled class-struggle-anarchist. Well, not unless the entire ethnic group are members of the same class (incredibly doubtful). As anarchists, we have to unite on a class basis. If I were to liberate the nation of Somalia right now, that would necessarily entail the emancipation of Somali capitalists. Also, national liberation in itself can never achieve working-class emancipation - without class consciousness, the working class can not and does not capture the means of production or bring down the walls of class-based society. It instead focuses on arbitrary things like national self-determination and political representation. It is simply class collaboration.

Also, national identity is very vague and in the end you are a member of whatever nation you feel like. Am I Hungarian, Ukrainian, Slovakian, Serbian or Australian? It's pretty fucking stupid.

I call myself a black nationalist first and foremost because the euro-centric interpretation of class struggle doesnt really address racism except as something that will magically go away when capitalism is overthrown. I support national liberation in a class struggle context, for example the Zapatistas or Black Panthers. I see no reason why I cant rep both the Red and Black flag and the Red Black and Green one.

[Nolan]

http://www.baconbabble.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/wtf-4.jpg

[Chambered Word]

I lol'd and then realised you were a SAlt.
So now I hate you.
xxx

How long did it take you? :confused: