Build the mosque!

[holiday_hawk]

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, if not i'm sorry. However, the hatred that is trying to get the mosque removed needs to stop and we are gathering support to fight it, we need all the help we can get. Go to Facebook and search for the group "Build the mosque!", i would post the link, but i believe this is only my second post.

[Q]

You're talking about the mosque in New York City, near "ground zero"?

Also, how is joining a facebook group by itself going to help in this matter?

[Peace on Earth]

You're better off joining an anti-mosque group and trying to reason with them. At the very least, it's fun.

[Dr Mindbender]

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, if not i'm sorry. However, the hatred that is trying to get the mosque removed needs to stop and we are gathering support to fight it, we need all the help we can get. Go to Facebook and search for the group "Build the mosque!", i would post the link, but i believe this is only my second post.
9/11 and islamophobia aside why should members of a communist forum be actively helping the spread of theism?

[al8]

No religious buildings should be built what so ever. All that superstitious shit needs to be suffocated out of existence.

[bailey_187]

The anti-Mosque group is stupid and influenced by racism, and we oppose them. But that doesnt mean we should campaign for the Mosque. Why do we want the Mosque?

I bet the group is full of white middle class liberals trying to show how multicultural and 'tollerent' they are.

[Jazzhands]

Facebook groups for political causes, unless they give useful links every day or so that you can use to debate with others, are totally useless. Even then, they're about as useful as a remote without batteries.

[leftace53]

I would rather they use the resources allocated for the mosque and use it to build shelters/food banks/community centres... you know, something tangibly useful. Of course I'd suggest making a different account for facebook political debates though, I'd rather not let the crazy right wingers have information on the city I live in along with all my drunk pictures.

[Bilan]

I don't support a mosque.
However, I don't not support a mosque.
It's not worth caring about either way.

[Q]

The anti-theism here is understandable, but I think is wrong. As communists we should stand for the full freedom of people. This includes religious freedom. The notion that we are only for freedoms we happen to cherrypick because we deem them to be the "right" kind of freedom is rather elitist and will only alienate workers from communist politics. We should defend the freedom of muslims to build mosques, regardless of what particular spot it is build upon.

Besides, as others have pointed out, this anti-mosque campaign is thinly veiled "patriot" propaganda against muslims as such and serves the American bourgeoisie in their strategy of divide and rule and maintaining a nationalist consciousness.

[AK]

We won't be anti-theists then, we'll be anti-clerical.

[Q]

We won't be anti-theists then, we'll be anti-clerical.

That is rather unrelated and still poses the problem of supporting a divide and rule agenda. Besides, and I'm unfamiliar with the background, perhaps this mosque has been paid for by the muslim community in New York? Certainly if this is the case, we ought to be more cautious in condemning the building of it by using in this context a rather abstract formulation such as "anti-clerical".

[AK]

That is rather unrelated and still poses the problem of supporting a divide and rule agenda. Besides, and I'm unfamiliar with the background, perhaps this mosque has been paid for by the muslim community in New York? Certainly if this is the case, we ought to be more cautious in condemning the building of it by using in this context a rather abstract formulation such as "anti-clerical".
Let me rephrase: we shouldn't support either side unquestionably in this, we should be defending the Muslim community from discrimination.

Besides, my post was entirely related:

As communists we should stand for the full freedom of people. This includes religious freedom.
Anti-clericals support religious freedom but not authoritarian and often corrupt institutions, hierarchical social structures and ranks of power within organised religion.

[bailey_187]

The anti-theism here is understandable, but I think is wrong. As communists we should stand for the full freedom of people. This includes religious freedom. The notion that we are only for freedoms we happen to cherrypick because we deem them to be the "right" kind of freedom is rather elitist and will only alienate workers from communist politics. We should defend the freedom of muslims to build mosques, regardless of what particular spot it is build upon.

Besides, as others have pointed out, this anti-mosque campaign is thinly veiled "patriot" propaganda against muslims as such and serves the American bourgeoisie in their strategy of divide and rule and maintaining a nationalist consciousness.


No one is saying the Mosque shouldnt be built, but we arent going to actually advocate for the Mosque being built.

[Wanted Man]

It's not just a mosque. It's going to be a massive community centre for muslims in NYC with all sorts of sports facilities, stores, restaurants, theatre, etc.

It's weird that people here are ignoring this and try to frame it as "campaigning for/against the mosque". That's completely irrelevant to the question. All that's going to happen is that muslims in NYC are going to have all of these facilities. What's wrong with that?

[Volcanicity]

It's not just a mosque. It's going to be a massive community centre for muslims in NYC with all sorts of sports facilities, stores, restaurants, theatre, etc.

It's weird that people here are ignoring this and try to frame it as "campaigning for/against the mosque". That's completely irrelevant to the question. All that's going to happen is that muslims in NYC are going to have all of these facilities. What's wrong with that?
Because its to the exclusion of everybody else.

[Jazzhands]

Because its to the exclusion of everybody else.

No. It's a community center. It's like the YMCA, but operated by Muslims. I don't know whether or not the parts that aren't completely religious (like the pool and all that) are open to non-Muslims. They say "move it somewhere else, just not here." OK, would you mind telling me where reactionaries wouldn't show up and protest? Because that's what happens in this country literally every time they try to build a mosque or anything related to Islam.

[Bilan]

It's not just a mosque. It's going to be a massive community centre for muslims in NYC with all sorts of sports facilities, stores, restaurants, theatre, etc.

It's weird that people here are ignoring this and try to frame it as "campaigning for/against the mosque". That's completely irrelevant to the question. All that's going to happen is that muslims in NYC are going to have all of these facilities. What's wrong with that?

I suppose it's because no one here cares either way.
It's good that these facilities will be opened up to Muslims (they aren't already?), but I don't really see the point of this.

I have no objection to people pointing out that the argument against it is thinly veiled patriotism and racism, but I don't see any point in taking a side in terms of whether it's built or not.

[#FF0000]

Because its to the exclusion of everybody else.

Wrong.

It's open to the public.

Anti-theism is cute but, uh, come on now this anti-Mosque and anti-Islam sentiment in general is fueled by racism and it's stupid to try an ignore that.

[Volcanicity]

Wrong.

It's open to the public.

Anti-theism is cute but, uh, come on now this anti-Mosque and anti-Islam sentiment in general is fueled by racism and it's stupid to try an ignore that.
If you are implying im anti-islamic you are wrong.I personally dont care where they build a Mosque or a church or any religious building.Is New York really crying out for another building with shops,and a theatre?I just think money could of been spent on something else.

[#FF0000]

If you are implying im anti-islamic you are wrong.I personally dont care where they build a Mosque or a church or any religious building.Is New York really crying out for another building with shops,and a theatre?I just think money could of been spent on something else.

I don't think it's using city money, but I might be wrong.

tbh I think a community center is a good thing to build and isn't any less valuable to a community just because it has a prayer room.

[Volcanicity]

I agree with the community centre also.My problem was just with the shops and Theatre,we have all got money problems and New York isnt short of either shops or Theatres,the fact they are in a religious building is irrelevant for me.How many working class people even go to the Theatre i personally dont know any,religious or not.

[Bilan]

I don't support a mosque.
However, I don't not support a mosque.
It's not worth caring about either way.

Apparently I upset GracchusBabeuf with this comment, which warranted a negative rep which reads:
"anti-muslim anti-worker bourgeois imperialist fascist class traitor".

A legitimate, logical, factual criticism if I ever saw one, eh tiger?

[Q]

Apparently I upset GracchusBabeuf with this comment, which warranted a negative rep which reads:
"anti-muslim anti-worker bourgeois imperialist fascist class traitor".

A legitimate, logical, factual criticism if I ever saw one, eh tiger?

Reminds me of something (http://www.revleft.com/vb/marxism-leninism-trotskyism-t140229/index.html?p=1837173#post1837173)...

[Jazzhands]

Apparently I upset GracchusBabeuf with this comment, which warranted a negative rep which reads:
"anti-muslim anti-worker bourgeois imperialist fascist class traitor".

A legitimate, logical, factual criticism if I ever saw one, eh tiger?

I have never met this person; I'm glad I haven't. but I understand that once you join Revleft, it's inevitable...and unpleasant. Like running into your first Rosa thread. dialectics.

[Bilan]

I have never met this person; I'm glad I haven't. but I understand that once you join Revleft, it's inevitable...and unpleasant. Like running into your first Rosa thread. dialectics.

Who, meeting me or gracchus?

[Obrero Rebelde]

If you are implying im anti-islamic you are wrong.I personally dont care where they build a Mosque or a church or any religious building.Is New York really crying out for another building with shops,and a theatre?I just think money could of been spent on something else.

Gee, how can so many "commies" miss the main point in this Ground Zero Mosque issue?

Aside from the obvious (the economy -- nay, the economICS), stupid,
IT'S ABOUT RACISM AND XENOPHOBIA.

Any so-called communist who doesn't "get" that is no true commie.

[Obrero Rebelde]

Oh, and any commie who doesn't "get" that racism and xenophobia are working class issues is no true revolutionary activist either.

[Ele'ill]

Gee, how can so many "commies" miss the main point in this Ground Zero Mosque issue?

Aside from the obvious (the economy -- nay, the economICS), stupid,
IT'S ABOUT RACISM AND XENOPHOBIA.

Any so-called communist who doesn't "get" that is no true commie.

Would you immediately support as advertised a 'white run white owned' community center?

A Christian run Christian owned community center?

[Klaatu]

9/11 and islamophobia aside why should members of a communist forum be actively helping the spread of theism?

To me, it is more about what I would call "under-dog-ism."

I always support the underdog, when they are molested by the "majority," because I believe in American values, whether I disagree with the underdogs' cause or not. An advanced society is a tolerant society. Let freedom ring! :)

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

Overall, referring to the theism thing, any government that would ever form will need to take an agnostic stance since the people as a whole will never be atheist. And no government should ever encourage for or against that because people within that the government will become tyrannical and fascist-like. So, for us to encourage the mosque is to encourage equality and the realization that no religion is above the other.

[Volcanicity]

Gee, how can so many "commies" miss the main point in this Ground Zero Mosque issue?

Aside from the obvious (the economy -- nay, the economICS), stupid,
IT'S ABOUT RACISM AND XENOPHOBIA.

Any so-called communist who doesn't "get" that is no true commie.
Have you never heard of muslims who are white.Most true communists just dont give a shit about Religion,whats wrong with that?

[Q]

Have you never heard of muslims who are white.Most true communists just dont give a shit about Religion,whats wrong with that?

Most true communists don't take social developments out of their context and just attack one single aspect of it (in this case religion), but try to consider every relevant factor.

[Volcanicity]

Most true communists don't take social developments out of their context and just attack one single aspect of it (in this case religion), but try to consider every relevant factor.
Why should a Communist support a religious building,whether its a Mosque or a church?For me its counter-productive.

[progressive_lefty]

Opposition to the Mosque, seems to becoming from a highly right oriented pro-Israel sector of the Jewish community in New York. It really highlights a lot of the anti-Arab bigotry of this sector, in their support of the occupation of the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza.

[Kayser_Soso]

This issue presents a great opportunity to expose rightists and show that they don't really give a shit about the Cawnstitooshun they're always babbling about. Since revolution isn't on the horizon any time soon, I'm in favor of virtually anything that makes conservatives upset and more loony.

And yes, this is really a racism issue. Has anyone else here heard about the non-Muslim black man who made the mistake of walking too close to the protesters and was ridiculed as a Muslim? To conservatives, Muslim means brown or black, but it provides a "safe" way for them to attack such people.

[Jazzhands]

Who, meeting me or gracchus?

Gracchus. I've already met you, obviously.:)

[Crimson Commissar]

Personally, I believe that no more religious buildings should be constructed. No more mosques, but no more churches either. However, if we're not going to campaign against the construction of churches then why the fuck single out muslims and campaign against mosques only? The right-wing islamophobes' logic is flawed. You cannot favour one religion over another. The islamophiles within the left are also idiots to be honest. Islam is just as reactionary and ridiculous as any other religion and therefore must be opposed by the left. Don't support the construction of ANY mosque, or any church, or any other religious building. We should show no support for any religion whatsoever.