Protest the pope demonstrations

[PaulKing]

Protest the Pope – March and Rally
Start:
September 18, 2010 1:00 pm
End:
September 18, 2010 4:30 pm
Venue:
Hyde Park Corner - top of Piccadilly
Join the “Protest the Pope” Campaign in this large-scale march against the State Visit of Pope Ratzinger in the UK.
The protest march will assemble at 1pm at Hyde Park Corner (top of Piccadilly).

It will then proceed through central London via Piccadilly, Piccadilly Circus, Haymarket, Trafalgar Square and Whitehall.

At the arrival point, opposite Downing Street, on Richmond Terrace, there will be the final Rally with speeches.

protest-the-pope.org.uk/2...pope-campaign


For details of film festival, debates, pre-march party and more visit the above site.

Also join the Facebook page at: -

facebook.com/group.php?gid=297218597246

Make YOUR voice heard against child rape, supporting fascism, the genocide in Rwanda engineered by the Church, and all the other horrific crimes the Vatican is responsible for.

[gorillafuck]

How was the genocide in Rwanda engineered by the church?

[Burn A Flag]

I believe that the Hutu power campaign was started by the Rwandan Archbishop. Or something like that.

EDIT: http://www.newsfromafrica.org/newsfromafrica/articles/art_10231.html

[PaulKing]

In an article written in 2005, Tom Ndahiro, a human rights commissioner in Rwanda, underscores the view that the Catholic establishment was instrumental in manipulating racial identities and creating divisions between Hutus and Tutsis. He said schools and seminaries helped disseminate racial theories, and that from 1959 these were angled towards keeping the Hutus in power. Instead of speaking out against discrimination and injustice, the church became complicit with the political regime.

AND

n November 16, a Rwandan military tribunal convicted Father Wenceslas Munyeshyaka of genocide, in a trial held in absentia. Munyeshyaka, who is now in France, was accused of committing rape and aiding militiamen in the genocide. The prosecutor, Major Christopher Bizimungu, said France would be asked to extradite Munyeshyaka.

Sister Mukakibibi is the third Catholic nun to be found guilty on genocide charges. In 2001 Sister Julienne Maria Kizito and her Mother Superior, Gertrude Mukangango, were sentenced to 12 and 15 years in prison, respectively.

In a trial held in Belgium, they were accused of calling in militiamen to drive out Tutsis who had sought refuge in their convent at Sovu in southern Rwanda. They were also accused of supplying fuel to militiamen to torch a building in which 500 Tutsis were hiding. Around 6,000 Tutsis were killed in the Sovu area.

AND

On 22 April 1994, Séraphine Mukamana had hidden herself in a garage when militias attacked a convent in Sovu in southern Rwanda. "We sought refugee in the garage and closed and barricaded the doors. Outside a bloodbath is going on. Suddenly an orphan begins to weep as it gets to hot in the garage. At once, the killers approach the garage." As the refugees refuse to come out, the militia leader Emmanuel Rekeraho decides to burn them alive in the garage. "'The nuns are coming to help us. They are bringing gasoline,' I heard [Rekeraho] say. Looking through a hole that the militiamen meanwhile had made in the wall, I indeed saw Sister Gertrude and Sister Kisito. The latter was carrying a petrol can. Shortly upon that, the garage is set on fire." Testimony against two Catholic nuns, Sisters Gertrude and Maria Kisito in a Brussels court, May 2001.

[PaulKing]

Genocide term for Rwanda priest

A Rwandan priest has been jailed for life after a U.N. tribunal extended his sentence for ordering militiamen to burn and bulldoze a church with 1,500 people inside. The International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda’s ruling came after Roman Catholic priest Athanase Seromba appealed his 2006 conviction, a statement posted on the body’s Web site late Wednesday said. He was originally sentenced to 15 years in prison.

The tribunal is trying the alleged masterminds of the 1994 Rwandan genocide in which more than 500,000 minority Tutsis and moderate Hutus were killed by Hutu extremists over a 100-day period. The tribunal said it convicted Seromba for “his role in the destruction of the church in Nyange Parish, and the consequent death of approximately 1,500 Tutsi refugees sheltering inside.”

Seromba was convicted of leading a militia that attacked the people and poured fuel through the roof of the church, while police threw grenades inside. After failing to kill everybody inside the church, Seromba ordered it to be demolished, the tribunal found.

Thousands of Rwandans have turned away from Catholicism, angered and saddened by the complicity of church officials in the genocide. Priests, nuns and followers were implicated in the killings and some churches were sites of notorious massacres.

[PaulKing]

Rape and sexual molestation were "endemic" in Irish Catholic church-run industrial schools and orphanages, a report revealed today.

The nine-year investigation found that Catholic priests and nuns for decades terrorised thousands of boys and girls in the Irish Republic, while government inspectors failed to stop the chronic beatings, rape and humiliation.

The high court judge Sean Ryan today unveiled the 2,600-page final report of Ireland's commission into child abuse, which drew on testimony from thousands of former inmates and officials from more than 250 church-run institutions. Police were called to the news conference amid angry scenes as victims were prevented from attending.

More than 30,000 children deemed to be petty thieves, truants or from dysfunctional families – a category that often included unmarried mothers – were sent to Ireland's austere network of industrial schools, reformatories, orphanages and hostels from the 1930s until the last facilities shut in the 1990s.

The findings prompted the new Archbishop of Westminster, the Most Rev Vincent Nichols, to say that it took "courage" for those clergy involved in child sex abuse to confront their actions. In an interview to be broadcast tonight on ITV News at Ten, he said: "I think of those in religious orders and some of the clergy in Dublin who have to face these facts from their past which instinctively and quite naturally they'd rather not look at. That takes courage, and also we shouldn't forget that this account today will also overshadow all of the good that they also did."

The Irish Survivors of Child Abuse (Isoca), an organisation set up to help victims, condemned the newly appointed head of the Catholic Church in England and Wales for his remarks.

"Rubbish is too kind of word for what the archbishop has said. I believe I have heard this kind of twaddle uttered by politicians in Ireland like Bertie Ahern, the former prime minister. It is the verbiage of un-reason and it leaves me cold. What the Archbishop really has to do is take a long hard look at the character and nature of the people he is talking about and ask himself if they are capable of being good," said Patrick Walsh.

The report found that molestation and rape were "endemic" in boys' facilities, chiefly run by the Christian Brothers order, and supervisors pursued policies that increased the danger. Girls supervised by orders of nuns, chiefly the Sisters of Mercy, suffered much less sexual abuse but instead endured frequent assaults and humiliation designed to make them feel worthless.

"In some schools a high level of ritualised beating was routine ... Girls were struck with implements designed to maximise pain and were struck on all parts of the body," the report said. "Personal and family denigration was widespread."

[Sam_b]

It won't be a very large march at all, I imagine.

What would you say if the argument was raised that this demo could potentially alienate thousands of Catholic workers who otherwise could be brought onto our side?

[danyboy27]

It won't be a very large march at all, I imagine.

What would you say if the argument was raised that this demo could potentially alienate thousands of Catholic workers who otherwise could be brought onto our side?

well, there is no need to get political, commies/liberal/apolitical people can participate to this march, i doubt this is really necessary to show off political colors during this event.

[PaulKing]

It won't be a very large march at all, I imagine.

What would you say if the argument was raised that this demo could potentially alienate thousands of Catholic workers who otherwise could be brought onto our side?

You are so wrong. The support so far has exceeded all expectations. The Facebook Page has nearly 10,000 subscribers and the internet had more blogs and forum comments then for any other event in living memory.

A turnout of 50,000 to 100,000 is now expected.

If one is frightened of alienating people you will soon find you are reduced to a total state of inactivity. The Catholic Church has done one hundred times more damage to socialist and democratic people's movements than the CIA.

They single handedly killed all the peoples movements in Mexico and helped do the same all over South America.

Helping destroy their power is the absolute duty of any self respecting left wing revolutionary and to think otherwise is dangerous self delusion.

You cannot make friends with a viper. History has proved that again and again.

[PaulKing]

The Pope and Pinochet
Why the Vatican defends mass murder
By Bill Vann
4 March 1999
Reports that Pope John Paul II made an appeal to the British government for the release of Augusto Pinochet "for humanitarian reasons" provoked outrage from human rights groups and relatives of the victims of Pinochet's murderous regime in Chile.
Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro Valls confirmed that the Pope had interceded on behalf of the former Chilean dictator. He declined to confirm press reports that the Vatican's intervention took the form of a letter addressed from the Pope, Karol Wojtyla, to the House of Lords, which is deliberating whether to extradite Pinochet to Spain, where he faces charges of mass killings and torture, or to return him to Chile.
"The Holy See supports national reconciliation everywhere, including Chile," the Vatican spokesman said.
In Chile an organization representing relatives of the "disappeared" published an open letter to the Pope declaring, "The Catholic Church cannot teach that to kill, to disappear and to torture thousands of oppositionists can be crimes that are left unpunished."
In Argentina, the Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo, the most prominent organization of relatives of the tens of thousands of victims of that country's military dictatorship of the 1970s and early 1980s, went further, accusing John Paul II of "defending assassins."

[Sam_b]

and the internet had more blogs and forum comments then for any other event in living memory.

Yeah, sure.


A turnout of 50,000 to 100,000 is now expected

More internet activity than any in living memory, yet you hae a guesstimation that is +/- 50,000; or 50% of the high-end turnout? This doesn't sound very realistic. TBH I'd be amazed if you got 10,000 to this, seriously.


If one is frightened of alienating people you will soon find you are reduced to a total state of inactivity. The Catholic Church has done one hundred times more damage to socialist and democratic people's movements than the CIA.

1. This is highly debatable, and objective statement if anything.

2. Not withstanding that the church has had a pretty long head-start.

This is also a cop-out answer if I ever heard one. It boils down to merely saying that this is the only action that can be taken and hell to the consequences if large amounts of Catholic workers are alienated. We don't just organise demonstrations for demonstration's sake, it is a political strategy and tactic. The church, most likely, could not give two hoots about a demonstration, and as we've seen it has had a pretty good PR department to wriggle out of these things.

Glasgow is a good example of religion, secularism and alienation. A large proportion of the working class and amongst its poorest are the Catholic population of the city which is significant. It also in the past has been one of the most susceptable to left-wing ideas, and its republican wing has been organised and vocal. All that this demonstration would do would set the demonstrators aside from this section of the class, and for what? For no real tactic apart from booing when the pope arrives?

[QUOTE=PaulKingHelping destroy their power is the absolute duty of any self respecting left wing revolutionary and to think otherwise is dangerous self delusion.[/QUOTE]

It is completely delusional to think that a demo such as this would do anything to destroy the power of the Catholic Church.

How is power challenged and institutions brought to their knees? By mass action o a united working class. This will do nothing towards that goal. Perhaps you'll feel better about yourself though.

[IndependentCitizen]

Just because people subscribe, support or say they're attending on facebook doesn't mean a thing.

I'm away during the visit, so I won't be attending. But you're only going to attract protestants, humanists and more than likely the muslims against crusades guys.

Nothing more than I say a few hundred.

[danyboy27]

i dont know if it will destroy the church, but it will surely feel damn good being here.

too bad i am stuck in canada, otherwise you could be sure i would have been there.

and Sam, its not a political statement its a Religious statement, the person who will be there will be pissed at the pope for various reason.

bottom line, if a lot of catholic worker are pissed, its not gonna change a damn thing beccause its not a political protest.

i am a communist, but that not the reason why i would be there, i would like to be there beccause the pope is an assole, a fucking assole.

if other pope loving communist and socialist disagree with me, no problem, they could go to the other protest and watch the pope getting out of his plane and taking a pope mobile ride.

i dont see nothing wrong about free speech, do you?

[Sam_b]

i dont know if it will destroy the church, but it will surely feel damn good being here.

This is not the point. I would feel damn good throwing a bottle at David Cameron but what does this do to advance the class struggle and bring workers to our side?


and Sam, its not a political statement its a Religious statement

This action is inherently political, how can it not be?


its not gonna change a damn thing beccause its not a political protest.

All protests are political. This is to show an apparent 'opposition' to "child rape, supporting fascism etc etc". It is a political action and a political statement.


i dont see nothing wrong about free speech, do you?

Dany, you have missed the point completely. I'm not stopping people going on what I believe to be a pointless demo because of 'free speech' issues (not that there is such a thing as free speech anyway); but rather questioning the strategy and tactics of such a protest - which all leftists should consider before taking any political action. It's a lazy argument to suggest that being opposed to a demo is somehow curtailing 'free speech'.

[Sam_b]

Thanks for the 'thank you' posts above, the Vatican multiplies my cheque every one I get.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

What's the alternative then? Stay indoors and avoid protesting the pope because we don't want to offend Catholic workers? Stay indoors and avoid protesting the BNP because we don't want to offend racist workers?

The Catholic church should be opposed, I don't see what the alternative is or how not protesting will advance the class struggle any more than attending the protest. I would say that this protest is a just cause for the left and should be used to spread awareness that the Church is corrupt, has done wrong (to many workers in fact) and that we don't agree with that institution.

[Crimson Commissar]

Not to mention that the catholic church is a completely hereditary organisation, which is something that ALL leftists should oppose.

[Sam_b]

Stay indoors and avoid protesting the BNP because we don't want to offend racist workers?

This is a complete non-sequator. You can make the tired church=fascism all you like, but I know which one's the more immediate threat to the class. The last time I checked my local priest wasn't roaming around the streets as part of the 'Catholic Defence League' assaulting workers and Asian youth.


Stay indoors and avoid protesting the pope because we don't want to offend Catholic workers?

Aren't you CWI? Isn't most of your activity in Northern Ireland based on not offending protestant workers?
Besides, this is not solely the point at all. What does such an activity benefit? How does such a demonstration materially hurt the Catholic Church, what does it achieve, what is the revolutionary strategy for attacking such an institution? This action will do more to alienate Catholic workers that it will do anything to the Church.


The Catholic church should be opposed, I don't see what the alternative is or how not protesting will advance the class struggle any more than attending the protest. I would say that this protest is a just cause for the left and should be used to spread awareness that the Church is corrupt, has done wrong (to many workers in fact) and that we don't agree with that institution.

Yeah yeah I get it, the Catholic Church is bad. However all you're really saying to this is that leftists might as well go on the demo because they haven't got any better ideas on how to change the situation. This is the definition of sloppy politics. Such a hierarchical institution can only be challenged by a mass of workers overthrowing capitalism, it's intrinsically linked.


Not to mention that the catholic church is a completely hereditary organisation, which is something that ALL leftists should oppose.

So are many capitalist institutions and big business. Why are you not boycotting capitalism then?

[Crimson Commissar]

So are many capitalist institutions and big business. Why are you not boycotting capitalism then?
Really, how many communists actually do that? It's pretty much impossible to NOT contribute to capitalism right now. You can protest it, sure, but it's pretty damn hard to actually boycott it. And you must be fucking insane if you think I support big businesses at all.

[Sam_b]

Exactly. Nail on the head. So how will such a demonstration bring down the Catholic Church, when it is intrinsically linked with capitalism?

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

This is a complete non-sequator. You can make the tired church=fascism all you like, but I know which one's the more immediate threat to the class. The last time I checked my local priest wasn't roaming around the streets as part of the 'Catholic Defence League' assaulting workers and Asian youth.



Aren't you CWI? Isn't most of your activity in Northern Ireland based on not offending protestant workers?
Besides, this is not solely the point at all. What does such an activity benefit? How does such a demonstration materially hurt the Catholic Church, what does it achieve, what is the revolutionary strategy for attacking such an institution? This action will do more to alienate Catholic workers that it will do anything to the Church.



Yeah yeah I get it, the Catholic Church is bad. However all you're really saying to this is that leftists might as well go on the demo because they haven't got any better ideas on how to change the situation. This is the definition of sloppy politics. Such a hierarchical institution can only be challenged by a mass of workers overthrowing capitalism, it's intrinsically linked.



So are many capitalist institutions and big business. Why are you not boycotting capitalism then?

I didn't say that the Church = fascism. To protest the Pope is to protest the Catholic Church and their sick treatment of the children of many workers. We are opposed to the Church as an organization, and we should not shy away from this opposition in fear that we will offend Catholic workers. They should know our position with regards to the Catholic Church. Our job is not to lie to workers, Catholic or otherwise, we wish to eliminate organizations like the Catholic Church; we should unite in opposition against them, and discuss the church with workers in all honesty. We cannot shy away from opposition to the organization in question, I think a demonstration against the Pope is perfectly acceptable. No one is under the illusion that this will be the catalyst for the revolution, most demos aren't, but they can send out a powerful message that can raise many questions to workers.

I do not know of my organization's methods in Northern Ireland and I do not support my organization's every move in a dogmatic fashion, I cannot comment on that question though as I'm unaware of the tactics in question. This demonstration is a demonstration of anger towards the Catholic Church as an organization, it is designed to represent the disdain felt towards them by many members of the left, and indeed the anger felt by many workers who's children have been molested by Catholic Priests, under the authority of the Pope.

I can understand your qualms with this demonstration to an extent, but I do not think that these kind of demonstrations shouldn't happen on the basis of those qualms. I'd say that these demos are fully justified. The Pope is an enemy, the Catholic Church is also, why shouldn't workers and activists express their anger towards them? Why should we have in mind Catholic workers but not workers who's children have been abused by priests?

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Exactly. Nail on the head. So how will such a demonstration bring down the Catholic Church, when it is intrinsically linked with capitalism?
Is the demo designed to bring down the Church? Or is it designed to represent the anger felt by many towards the organization?

[Sam_b]

To protest the Pope is to protest the Catholic Church and their sick treatment of the children of many workers

Why aren't you camping outside of a Nike shop right now? Same effect.


and we should not shy away from this opposition in fear that we will offend Catholic worker

We are not 'shying away' because of this. This is the result of the action. We should be 'shying away from it' because it's not going to do a damn bit of good. There's no strategy here.


No one is under the illusion that this will be the catalyst for the revolution.

So this really is admitting that there is no strategy involved here and no tactics in place, which makes there no point in this action taking place as the negatives far outweigh the positives. Nobody is saying that demonstrations are a catalyst for the abstract 'revolution', rather that there is nothing here that will materially benefit the class struggle. That's what organising is about, right?


This demonstration is a demonstration of anger towards the Catholic Church as an organization, it is designed to represent the disdain felt towards them by many members of the left

What is the 'left' on this supposed demo?


but I do not think that these kind of demonstrations shouldn't happen on the basis of those qualms

So demos should be happening for the hell of it, and damn the consequences, yes?


The Pope is an enemy, the Catholic Church is also, why shouldn't workers and activists express their anger towards them?

Because it achieves absolutely nothing for the benefit of the class. I could list about 100 things i'm angry about right now. Should we go on a march into the middle of Tehran and denounce Islam because the Ayatollah is an enemy?

[Sam_b]

Is the demo designed to bring down the Church?



Helping destroy their power


Or is it designed to represent the anger felt by many towards the organization?

So what is the best method for channeling this anger into class-conscious activity, with particular regards to this demonstration? What measures would be taken in order to not alienate workers who will be there to see the Pope, and Catholic workers in Britain? What is the desired outcome and result for this demo, apart from shouting 'boo' at the Pope? Looking at the website we see a list of organisations supporting it. How are we going to be able to effectively bring people from these organisations to a revolutionary position?

If you're not prepared to answer these questions, then leftist organisations should not be supporting this demo.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Its a demo, there is no strategy, there doesn't have to be. The Catholic Organization is a shitty organization that will be protested against (just like Nike and all the others have, demonstrations against Multi-nationals have tended to raise consciousness and attract workers I'm sure).

You make many good points, but none of them tell me I shouldn't go to this demo. The Catholic Church should be opposed in many different angry ways, why should we sit indoors whilst the scum bag visits the country and is treated as some hero? We should go and shout at him, let workers know our position with regards to the organization. Last year many of us were protesting the G20 in London, this achieved nothing, but many recruits were made and impressions were made to workers, who saw a voice that opposed the world leaders and the National government. We should be a voice that speaks out against terrible organizations like the Catholic Church too, many workers and students are angry with the Catholic Church, the revolutionary left should be reflecting their genuine and justified discontent, through mobilization and demonstration.

The first demo I went to was a small anti-BNP one, we achieved nothing really, but it raised my consciousness and led me to become very active. This demo has the same potential, I'll be there with a few inexperienced comrades and I hope that they have a great time and get a good taste for activism.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Also, on the question of alienating workers who are there to see the pope, that will be a difficult problem. We risk alienating workers in much of our activity, though. I've had workers oppose me on the basis that I didn't agree that immigrants were the root cause of our society's problems, but I don't let that change my tactics. In turn this may alienate many workers who will not accept our view, but we oppose certain things and this must be clear. If anything it should be even more clear to the workers that go to visit the Pope.

[Sam_b]

Its a demo, there is no strategy, there doesn't have to be

I'm sorry, this is just plain ridiculous. With this in mind no wonder there was the downturn. Praxis, anyone?


You make many good points, but none of them tell me I shouldn't go to this demo

I'm not telling you to go to this demo. Go if you want. All i'm saying is that it's a terrible idea to go to any demo without a strategy and a frank Marxist approach to the situation at hand.


why should we sit indoors whilst the scum bag visits the country and is treated as some hero?

I've dealt with this several times. We shouldn't sit indoors, we should be planning meaningful actiity that actually raises consciousness and develops the struggle.


Last year many of us were protesting the G20 in London, this achieved nothing

Untrue.


The first demo I went to was a small anti-BNP one, we achieved nothing really
Untrue if we again take this:

but it raised my consciousness and led me to become very active

But what was the general strategy here? Arguably this. This is not like the BNP, this is not like an anti-globalisation demo. I disagree that, by the very nature of the demo itself, it is a prime method to bring workers to ourside. I think the workers there, who represent a marginal within the British working class itself, would be better influenced by activities within the workplaces rather than attacking what many may see as something seperate from capitalism and a pillar of their spirituality. That's all i'm saying. You'll probably have a harder time getting your politics towards this section while being isolated in a seperate demo area with probably less than 5,000 other people; throwing eggs and yelling 'BOOOOOOO'! There's going to be some sharp politics there, that's for sure! :laugh:


I've had workers oppose me on the basis that I didn't agree that immigrants were the root cause of our society's problems, but I don't let that change my tactics

What are your tactics? You just said right there but in the previous post say there's no need for strategy on a demo! Your position is completely incoherant and appears to switch from post to post as convenient.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I'm sorry, this is just plain ridiculous. With this in mind no wonder there was the downturn. Praxis, anyone?



I'm not telling you to go to this demo. Go if you want. All i'm saying is that it's a terrible idea to go to any demo without a strategy and a frank Marxist approach to the situation at hand.



I've dealt with this several times. We shouldn't sit indoors, we should be planning meaningful actiity that actually raises consciousness and develops the struggle.



Untrue.


Untrue if we again take this:


But what was the general strategy here? Arguably this. This is not like the BNP, this is not like an anti-globalisation demo. I disagree that, by the very nature of the demo itself, it is a prime method to bring workers to ourside. I think the workers there, who represent a marginal within the British working class itself, would be better influenced by activities within the workplaces rather than attacking what many may see as something seperate from capitalism and a pillar of their spirituality. That's all i'm saying. You'll probably have a harder time getting your politics towards this section while being isolated in a seperate demo area with probably less than 5,000 other people; throwing eggs and yelling 'BOOOOOOO'! There's going to be some sharp politics there, that's for sure! :laugh:



What are your tactics? You just said right there but in the previous post say there's no need for strategy on a demo! Your position is completely incoherant and appears to switch from post to post as convenient.
I meant that a demonstration against the Pope has no strategy, other than to express our disdain to the organization in question and raise consciousness amongst the workers who join us in opposition. It is a justified cause in my book, it may not have the most revolutionary standing point but who is saying that the root of the revolution will be a struggle against the Catholic Church?

I will reply in depth in the morning as it is late.

[Communist]

.

There are plenty of reasons not to like the Pope, chief among them being the horrific child abuse scandals. And for the most part, the left isn't religious and the Roman Catholic Church (even in their catechism) openly opposes communism. We aren't destined to get along too well.

Still, I see nothing revolutionary about this demonstration. Most people know about the Church's reign of repression throughout history, and certainly everyone, Catholics and non-Catholics, know all about the child abuse scandals. Protesting a man they still regard as holy or whatever isn't going to achieve anything. It won't impress working-class Catholics and most non-Catholics could care less what he does or what you think about what he does. There's other issues in most people's minds, like there is in ours.

I could well be wrong, but I doubt protestors will turn out in mass numbers; anyplace the Pope goes will be jam-packed with people who, for whatever reasons you, I or anyone else may see as illogical, love the guy. I wouldn't want to fight those crowds if I didn't have to, and certainly not without a very good reason. And this protest isn't a good enough reason, I see no revolutionary action.

People are entitled to go and do whatever they think needs to be done. But it's absurd for the OP to say any self-respecting revolutionary would try to destroy Church power through things like these. We want to destroy capitalism, and then religion won't be much of an issue, because the better world will be in the here and now.

.

[Sam_b]

I meant that a demonstration against the Pope has no strategy, other than to express our disdain to the organization in question and raise consciousness amongst the workers who join us in opposition

Then it's a shitty strategy.

In fact, pretty much a non-strategy. It's not a strategy to 'raise consciousness amongst the workers', that is a result, the question is how. And to be honest, I fully expect that no thought will be put into this by the parties in question whatsoever.


It is a justified cause in my book, it may not have the most revolutionary standing point but who is saying that the root of the revolution will be a struggle against the Catholic Church?

For the record, this is about the third time that you have missed the point here completely.

[777]

*****ing against the Catholic church is soooo cliche.:thumbdown:

Instead of simply ranting about Catholicism why not campaign for better child protection laws?

Instead of complaining about how Catholicism supposedly condemns "communism", try learning abut Catholic social teaching.

Instead of *****ing about organized religion, let people enjoy their superstitions.

Instead of blaming the Church for our government funding a STATE visit by a HEAD OF STATE, campaign to have it not funded.

Frankly, I see this as just an excuse for some militant atheists to do what they do best; get on their moral high-horse and condemn people who aren't like them. Keep your preconceived and insulting notions of Catholicism is to yourself thank you.:)

[mossy noonmann]

How about trying to find something that the class could demonstrate against together?

I'm trying really hard to think of something.... oh, i know, what about the new Tory govt and the cuts

its about time that those who claim to want to see the unity of the working class started trying to do something about it rather than this bollocks!

we should find things that unite us , not divide us.

[Sam_b]

Instead of simply ranting about Catholicism why not campaign for better child protection laws?

Instead of complaining about how Catholicism supposedly condemns "communism", try learning abut Catholic social teaching.

Instead of *****ing about organized religion, let people enjoy their superstitions

You've missed the point. The argument that i'm intrinsically making is not a defence of the reactionary Catholic Church, but a Marxist argument of strategy and engagement with the wider working class. How child protection laws to be used and abused by the state is any more of a waste of time is irrelevant, and doesn't stop the influence of the Catholic church any more or less.

The question is one of praxis. Nobody here has actually attacked Catholocism anyway, unless you see (what I guess is your religion?) being intrinsically tied with an institution which is against the revolutionary movement and the wider class itself.

[Communist]

Instead of complaining about how Catholicism supposedly condemns "communism"No supposedly about it. Furthermore, it's a mortal sin for a Catholic to be a communist (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8_angzt_bo4J:www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1882266/posts+catholic+catechism+communism&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a).

What did you mean by the quotations around communism?

.

[777]

No supposedly about it. Furthermore, it's [link] a mortal sin for a Catholic to be a communist.

What did you mean by the quotations around communism?

.


Because it clearly doesn't condemn Communism, but Atheism and (sorry) totalitarianism. Catholic social teaching is much more in depth than that.

Sam_b, The Catholic Church is intrinsic linked to the faith. They can not be theologically separated.

I don't see why the Church is a problem? Methinks it is merely a case of sectarianism.

[Sam_b]

Sam_b, The Catholic Church is intrinsic linked to the faith. They can not be theologically separated.

Says who? Are you all people that identify as Catholic?


Methinks it is merely a case of sectarianism

You should define what you mean as 'sectarianism' here.

[777]

Says who? Are you all people that identify as Catholic?



You should define what you mean as 'sectarianism' here.

Says who? The Catholic religion. It's dogma. Don't like it? Go somewhere else. If you wanna be Protestant then you can go do that, but you don't have to ruin the Catholic Church. High-Anglicans can make up their own religion and still have the trappings of Catholicism.

By sectarianism I mean religious bigotry. Yes, atheists can be guilty of this as well.

I don't see why people need to protest the Pope. Just because you don't like Catholicism, doesn't mean it has to be abolished.

[The Grey Blur]

load of rubbish. a circle-jerk for militant atheists at best and antagonistic towards millions of catholic workers at worst.

[Sam_b]

Says who? The Catholic religion. It's dogma. Don't like it? Go somewhere else. If you wanna be Protestant then you can go do that, but you don't have to ruin the Catholic Church. High-Anglicans can make up their own religion and still have the trappings of Catholicism.


I am saying that personal faith does not equte the Catholic church or it's 'dogma'. So are you speaking for everyone that defines themselves as 'Catholic'?

I don't see a problem in 'ruining the Catholic Church' in its current position of attachment to capitalism.

[Communist]

Because it clearly doesn't condemn Communism, but Atheism and (sorry) totalitarianism. Catholic social teaching is much more in depth than that.
They used to outright excommunicate Catholics who belonged to communist organizations, now it's just a really big sin. Their catechism opposes communism. Fact.

Now you're saying that the Catholics misunderstand what communism is, that they're getting it confused with totalitarianism. I see no confusion at all, they are simply using the reactionary, capitalist, pro-imperialist definition of communism that nearly all who haven't studied Marxism believe in due to endless propaganda. (Propaganda which many churches and denominations have gleefully added to, by the way, while enjoying tax-free status.) They aren't using highbrow, impressionistic language, nor do I think they are especially stupid. Of thousands of cardinals and bishops, noone can point out the error in their definition of communism? Or the lie that communists are monolithic in opposition to religion?

They mean exactly what they say.

Not that any of this has much to do with my opinion of attending this protest or not. The fact that the Catholic church opposes communism (or whatever you think they think it is they're opposing) isn't reason enough to bother to go out and protest the Pope. There's no political strategy, as has been pointed out.

.

But be careful with your seeming praise for Catholic 'social teaching'...

.

[777]

Whatever, I just don't see how *****ing about Catholicism is good for anything.

Your opinions are a fist in the face of the billion or so Catholics around the world. Your views are limited on the subject and I suggest you learn more about what the Catholic church actually teaches.

Heck, the Church can't win...Marxists call it Capitalist and the Capitalists call it Marxist.:confused:

[Sam_b]

So that's no comeback whatsoever, right?

[777]

Nope. Just don't see why ya gotta ***** about the Catholics..... why not go join the EDL and ***** about Islam?

That is all...

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Islam and the Catholic Church's organizational structure can hardly be compared really. Both religions which many of us disagree with, but they are very different in terms of their respective organization and authorities.

Also, the EDL's position is xenophobic, using Islam as a focal point for that xenophobia - opposing the Catholic Church and the Pope is not opposing Catholics in society, but the organization that supposedly represents them. I'd also like to say that I accept my defeat in the argument previously, I just have a strong dislike for the Catholic Church and the fact that they are untouchable.

[777]

So? It's still picking on a religious community because you don't like them.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

So? It's still picking on a religious community because you don't like them.
Its not the community we don't like. It is the organization that people have problems with.

[777]

It is the community, you are telling people what they should and shouldn't believe in. You are attacking their church. It's as simple as that.

There's a long history of anti-Catholic bigotry in Britain, usually done under the guise of the "NO POPERY" argument.

I'm sure the Orange Lodge will be pleased to join you at your wee protest.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

It is the community, you are telling people what they should and shouldn't believe in. You are attacking their church. It's as simple as that.

There's a long history of anti-Catholic bigotry in Britain, usually done under the guise of the "NO POPERY" argument.

I'm sure the Orange Lodge will be pleased to join you at your wee protest.
No we aren't. People can believe in what they like, many of us just disagree with the Church itself, as an organization and the power that it has.

Therein lies the problem though, as was rightly pointed out in the thread. The demo is unproductive as it may offend some Catholic workers. But criticizing the Church isn't the same as criticizing Catholics as a whole, there are many Catholics who disagree with the Church on many levels too.

[durhamleft]

It is the community, you are telling people what they should and shouldn't believe in. You are attacking their church. It's as simple as that.

There's a long history of anti-Catholic bigotry in Britain, usually done under the guise of the "NO POPERY" argument.

I'm sure the Orange Lodge will be pleased to join you at your wee protest.

LOL.

So people shouldn't oppose the Pope's stance on contraception in third world countries, homosexuality and allowing his priests to fuck kids then trying to cover it up... because it is an attack on the Catholic community?

[PaulKing]

By The Associated Press The Associated Press – Wed Jul 7, 10:39 am ET

SANTIAGO, Chile – The Roman Catholic Church is petitioning Chile's government for prisoner pardons that would include people responsible for crimes against humanity.
The church is asking for the pardons as part of the commemoration of the 200th anniversary of Chile's independence on Sept. 18. The church proposes pardons for those older than 70, any with a terminal decease and women who are mothers.
The controversy centers on the inclusion of some convicted of committing crimes during the 1973-90 dictatorship of Gen. Augusto Pinochet. According to official statistics, 3,065 opponents of Pinochet's regime were killed and 1,200 more disappeared.
The Group of Families of Detainees and Missing People has asked President Sebastian Pinera not to pardon anyone accused of committing such crimes during Pinochet's dictatorship.

[Sam_b]

Nice engagement with the argument Paul.

[777]

LOL.

So people shouldn't oppose the Pope's stance on contraception in third world countries, homosexuality and allowing his priests to fuck kids then trying to cover it up... because it is an attack on the Catholic community?

Nope, being Catholic is a choice. If people want to be a good Catholic then they gotta do Catholic stuff, if they don't they don't. I don't see why you gotta ***** about somebodies choice.....

And the Catholic church isn't there to fuck kids you dumbass. There are way more child abuse cases by protestant organisations and secular than there are Catholic.

[Communist]

Nope, being Catholic is a choice. If people want to be a good Catholic then they gotta do Catholic stuff, if they don't they don't. I don't see why you gotta ***** about somebodies choice...
Do you agree with all the Catholic teachings, social or religious? I don't see how you could as a leftist...You disagree with the staunch anti-abortion stance the Church takes, so how do you reconcile that? Wouldn't that mean you're not a good Catholic?

.

[777]

Do you agree with all the Catholic teachings, social or religious? I don't see how you could as a leftist...You disagree with the staunch anti-abortion stance the Church takes, so how do you reconcile that? Wouldn't that mean you're not a good Catholic?

.


Thats up to them, who are you to ***** and moan about what somebody else believes? How very....FASH! ;)

[Sam_b]

How very 'no argument'.

[777]

How very 'no argument'.

The argument is simple.... "If it harms none, do as you will" and "wind your neck in":thumbup1:

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Nope, being Catholic is a choice. If people want to be a good Catholic then they gotta do Catholic stuff, if they don't they don't. I don't see why you gotta ***** about somebodies choice.....

And the Catholic church isn't there to fuck kids you dumbass. There are way more child abuse cases by protestant organisations and secular than there are Catholic.
I can't believe you're using that as an argument. The Church, in all its moral highness, can not be excused for its sexual crimes against children on the basis that other churches have done it more.

Those children have been exploited by the very men who's job it is to be their moral guides, it is inexcusable, especially on the basis that they haven't done it as much as other religious organizations.

Following the teachings of scriptures should be a purely personal matter in my opinion, that is your decision, as much as it is our decision to criticize the Catholic church or indeed any religious organization.

[777]

I can't believe you're using that as an argument. The Church, in all its moral highness, can not be excused for its sexual crimes against children on the basis that other churches have done it more.

Those children have been exploited by the very men who's job it is to be their moral guides, it is inexcusable, especially on the basis that they haven't done it as much as other religious organizations.

Individuals did that... not the church. Individuals should be punished, not the church. I don't see you lobbying against the secular and protestant organisations that have been responsible for negligence....


Following the teachings of scriptures should be a purely personal matter in my opinion, that is your decision, as much as it is our decision to criticize the Catholic church or indeed any religious organization.


That is a protestant opinion, not a Catholic one - which is fine... if you happen to be a protestant. Hey, criticize the church all you want, but a gang of militant atheists shouting abuse at the head of the Catholic church and antagonizing Catholics because of their beliefs is simply not cool. Don't be such a douche about what you believe. How does what they believe stop you from living a happy, fruitful life?

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Individuals did that... not the church. Individuals should be punished, not the church. I don't see you lobbying against the secular and protestant organisations that have been responsible for negligence....



That is a protestant opinion, not a Catholic one - which is fine... if you happen to be a protestant. Hey, criticize the church all you want, but a gang of militant atheists shouting abuse at the head of the Catholic church and antagonizing Catholics because of their beliefs is simply not cool. Don't be such a douche about what you believe. How does what they believe stop you from living a happy, fruitful life?
The Church, by the power of its authority, has done its best to shove these many incidents under the carpet. It is their power and influence, and the fact that this power and influence can allow priests to get away with sexually abusing children, that I have a problem with. And I will criticize any organization, of any creed, if it is guilty of the same crimes against the proletariat.

My happy and fruitful life is irrelevant, when there are children all over the world being exploited by religious organizations. I don't know what the acceptable tactic is, for stripping the Catholic Church and all of these other institutions, of their power and influence, but it needs to happen. The fact that this proposition offends many people of creed is a very regrettable fact I'd say. It means that these organizations are effectively exploiting people and actually creating many of the divisions in society that the revolutionary left find so difficult to overcome; religious organizations serve as a weapon to the bourgeois in the sense that they divide workers.

The Catholic Church (the main focal point of this discussion) is guilty of far too many historical crimes for it to be ignored by the revolutionary left. It is not the workers who have dogmatic faith in these institutions that are our enemy, they are victims of the religious institutions that they have such blind faith in. Our enemy is the capitalist system and certain religious organizations' relationship to it.

[777]

The Church, by the power of its authority, has done its best to shove these many incidents under the carpet. It is their power and influence, and the fact that this power and influence can allow priests to get away with sexually abusing children, that I have a problem with. And I will criticize any organization, of any creed, if it is guilty of the same crimes against the proletariat.

My happy and fruitful life is irrelevant, when there are children all over the world being exploited by religious organizations. I don't know what the acceptable tactic is, for stripping the Catholic Church and all of these other institutions, of their power and influence, but it needs to happen. The fact that this proposition offends many people of creed is a very regrettable fact I'd say. It means that these organizations are effectively exploiting people and actually creating many of the divisions in society that the revolutionary left find so difficult to overcome; religious organizations serve as a weapon to the bourgeois in the sense that they divide workers.

The Catholic Church (the main focal point of this discussion) is guilty of far too many historical crimes for it to be ignored by the revolutionary left. It is not the workers who have dogmatic faith in these institutions that are our enemy, they are victims of the religious institutions that they have such blind faith in. Our enemy is the capitalist system and certain religious organizations' relationship to it.

Blah blah blah, wow! you are sooooo revolutionary and original..........not!

The fact is that your views are narrow and reactionary and fail to take into consideration the wider circumstances.

Whatever "exploitation" you are talking about, the fact of the matter is that the nature of that exploitation is probably socio-economic and not religious or inherent to the structure and theology of the Church.

The institution of the Catholic Church is of no threat to anybody on the Left. The system changes then the church has to deal with it. Dogmatic faith, while it may be a folly, is harmless. There is no need to attack it on an organised and political level.

If you want to prosletyze for atheism or even protestantism then do that on a personal level, using reason and such. . . but getting a load of atheist "unholier-than-thou" types together to ***** about something over a billion people hold dear is just stupid.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The institution of the Catholic Church is of no threat to anybody on the Left.

Someone's never heard of the clerical fascist group Opus Dei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_Dei).


The system changes then the church has to deal with it.

No, the system changes and the Catholic Church is dragged kicking and screaming into the brilliant light of... yesteryear. Remember that this is the same global organisation that still to this day spreads lies about condoms (http://www.libchrist.com/std/vaticanlies.html) and excommunicates 9 year old girls for having abortions (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1883598,00.html).


Dogmatic faith, while it may be a folly, is harmless. There is no need to attack it on an organised and political level.

Bullshit. Dogmatic faith gets people hurt and killed on a daily basis.


If you want to prosletyze for atheism or even protestantism then do that on a personal level, using reason and such. . . but getting a load of atheist "unholier-than-thou" types together to ***** about something over a billion people hold dear is just stupid.

Subjecting widely-held but unsubstantiated beliefs to critical scrutiny and raising awareness of the pitfalls of blind acceptance of dogma is in fact supremely important. We don't learn anything new at all by simply swallowing wholesale what the clergy tell us - they have an interest in deceiving the laity whether they realise it or not.

[Adi Shankara]

You are so wrong. The support so far has exceeded all expectations. The Facebook Page has nearly 10,000 subscribers and the internet had more blogs and forum comments then for any other event in living memory.

A turnout of 50,000 to 100,000 is now expected.

If one is frightened of alienating people you will soon find you are reduced to a total state of inactivity. The Catholic Church has done one hundred times more damage to socialist and democratic people's movements than the CIA.

They single handedly killed all the peoples movements in Mexico and helped do the same all over South America.

Helping destroy their power is the absolute duty of any self respecting left wing revolutionary and to think otherwise is dangerous self delusion.

You cannot make friends with a viper. History has proved that again and again.

And I'm pretty sure most of those are catholics, right?

fact of the matter is, most of those showing up are probably going to be the usual gang of Protestant bigots who associate being catholic with being Irish or African, and thus just want to turn it into another Little Englander event, brought to you by the EDL and her beloved Anglican church, there to rid the country of "Foreign, Roman Papacy".

Seriously, Catholics seem to break with Rome when it comes to communism; if that wasn't the case, then there wouldn't be so many communists in heavily catholic Latin America; This protest is stupid, and will just alienate the base we're supposed to be supporting.

[Adi Shankara]

P.S: most of the historic opposition to communism by the Catholic church has been done not on account of the economic or even social policies (liberation theology and economic justice being popular amongst the church clergy, remember), but rather the policies of anti-theism that many such self-described marxist-socialist countries instated; Imagine how much easier communism would've been to achieve if the pope was on our side throughout the 20th century?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

And I'm pretty sure most of those are catholics, right?

fact of the matter is, most of those showing up are probably going to be the usual gang of Protestant bigots who associate being catholic with being Irish or African, and thus just want to turn it into another Little Englander event, brought to you by the EDL and her beloved Anglican church, there to rid the country of "Foreign, Roman Papacy".

Evidence for this assertion, please. Speaking as someone who actually lives in the UK, nobody cares much what stripe of Christian you are outside of Northern Ireland - intense believers of any denomination tend to be regarded with suspicion and derision by the relatively godless population.


Seriously, Catholics seem to break with Rome when it comes to communism; if that wasn't the case, then there wouldn't be so many communists in heavily catholic Latin America; This protest is stupid, and will just alienate the base we're supposed to be supporting.

If Catholics in general disagree with Rome when it comes to communism as you allege, then surely they will be smart enough to realise that the pontiff and the Church hierarchy are the ones who are in the line of fire during protests like this, not rank-and-file lay believers.

But of course, like most believers you want to have your cake and eat it too. You claim to want communism, but at the same time you defend one of the world's largest hierarchical organisations.


P.S: most of the historic opposition to communism by the Catholic church has been done not on account of the economic or even social policies (liberation theology and economic justice being popular amongst the church clergy, remember), but rather the policies of anti-theism that many such self-described marxist-socialist countries instated; Imagine how much easier communism would've been to achieve if the pope was on our side throughout the 20th century?

Dream on. Liberation theology is a fundamentally reformist exercise at best and is vociferously opposed by the higher-ups.

[Sam_b]

Speaking as someone who actually lives in the UK, nobody cares much what stripe of Christian you are outside of Northern Ireland

...and Central Scotland.

[777]

...and Central Scotland.

And liverpool....I don't know what circles you two float around in but I know for fact that protestants DO care what denomination you come from!

Your opposition to Catholicism is irrational and abstract. It serves no purpose at all except to satisfy your ego and make you feel superior to others way of life.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

And liverpool....I don't know what circles you two float around in but I know for fact that protestants DO care what denomination you come from!

Your opposition to Catholicism is irrational and abstract. It serves no purpose at all except to satisfy your ego and make you feel superior to others way of life.
His post wasn't irrational what-so-ever. In fact being highly critical of hierarchical, exploitative organizations like the Catholic Church (or any, take your pick) is in line with revolutionary politics - it is rational. I don't see how being critical of an organization like the Catholic Church can be deemed egotistical at all, surely we oppose all of these clerical organizations by default, with the proletariat in mind? The Catholic Church is an enemy, based on historical fact, not just some irrational hatred as you put it.

[777]

His post wasn't irrational what-so-ever. In fact being highly critical of hierarchical, exploitative organizations like the Catholic Church (or any, take your pick) is in line with revolutionary politics - it is rational. I don't see how being critical of an organization like the Catholic Church can be deemed egotistical at all, surely we oppose all of these clerical organizations by default, with the proletariat in mind? The Catholic Church is an enemy, based on historical fact, not just some irrational hatred as you put it.

Give one example of exploitation that is inherent to the Catholic church and is not socio-economic in nature.

Is the hierarchy of the church really so wrong? Surely the best way to carry on a tradition is by having people trained in it? The hierarchy preserves tradition, nothing more.

If you oppose clerical organizations by default, are you not just following a cause blindly without examining why? The EDl oppose clerical Islam too, why not join them?:rolleyes:

Why is it egotistical? For the simple fact that people like to believe that they are part of some enlightened elite and that other people are just "sheeple". Sure, opposition to religion is fine and good, but looking down on people for their superstitions is not cool. Trying to destroy their source of comfort is not cool.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Give one example of exploitation that is inherent to the Catholic church and is not socio-economic in nature.

Is the hierarchy of the church really so wrong? Surely the best way to carry on a tradition is by having people trained in it? The hierarchy preserves tradition, nothing more.

If you oppose clerical organizations by default, are you not just following a cause blindly without examining why? The EDl oppose clerical Islam too, why not join them?:rolleyes:

Why is it egotistical? For the simple fact that people like to believe that they are part of some enlightened elite and that other people are just "sheeple". Sure, opposition to religion is fine and good, but looking down on people for their superstitions is not cool. Trying to destroy their source of comfort is not cool.
The roots of the exploitative nature of the Catholic Church are obviously socio-economic, the same with every exploitative aspect of society. This does not mean we should refrain from criticizing the organization, or anything that is exploitative in its nature because of its socio-economic origins.

Yes, the organizational structure and the power and influence of the Catholic Church is wrong and contradictory to the aims of revolutionary socialists. I don't think one of our objectives is to preserve traditions (some traditions, we hope, will "wither away").

Clerical Islam and Clerical Catholicism are completely different in terms of their power, influence and the threat they pose to the working class. The EDL's methods are designed to attack Muslims, in a xenophobic and racist fashion where-as our critical view-point attacks the Catholic Church's position in relation to our socio-economic conditions. It is a critique of the organization, which is incredibly powerful, not a critique of Catholic workers (many of which were brought up Catholic, and probably just accept that as the way to be). I hate the Iranian regime, an Islamic one, but when I criticize it, I am not criticizing or insulting the subjects to that regime, but the organizational structure of it.

Your final paragraph just, yet again, absolutely justified Marx's term "Religion is the opium of the masses". Some workers are comfortable in the capitalist system, that does not change our outlook and our objectives.

[777]

The roots of the exploitative nature of the Catholic Church are obviously socio-economic, the same with every exploitative aspect of society. This does not mean we should refrain from criticizing the organization, or anything that is exploitative in its nature because of its socio-economic origins.

It means that when you are attacking the Church, you are not attacking the root cause. It is as simplistic as blaming immigrants for things. It is a mere symptom of a deeper problem.


Yes, the organizational structure and the power and influence of the Catholic Church is wrong and contradictory to the aims of revolutionary socialists. I don't think one of our objectives is to preserve traditions (some traditions, we hope, will "wither away").

How is it wrong or contradictory to the aims of revolutionary socialists? Traditions fade with time and are replaced by new ones, so chill and wait.


Clerical Islam and Clerical Catholicism are completely different in terms of their power, influence and the threat they pose to the working class.

Yes, clerical Islam has much more power and influence and is way much more of a threat to the working class. Why aren't you *****ing about Islam then?


The EDL's methods are designed to attack Muslims, in a xenophobic and racist fashion where-as our critical view-point attacks the Catholic Church's position in relation to our socio-economic conditions. It is a critique of the organization, which is incredibly powerful, not a critique of Catholic workers (many of which were brought up Catholic, and probably just accept that as the way to be). I hate the Iranian regime, an Islamic one, but when I criticize it, I am not criticizing or insulting the subjects to that regime, but the organizational structure of it.


I see no difference between what is proposed and the EDL.


Your final paragraph just, yet again, absolutely justified Marx's term "Religion is the opium of the masses". Some workers are comfortable in the capitalist system, that does not change our outlook and our objectives.


I like opium. It rocks. So what? You want to get rid of opium too? It helps millions of people to relax. Is that so bad?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

And liverpool....I don't know what circles you two float around in but I know for fact that protestants DO care what denomination you come from!

That would depend on the Protestant, don't you think?


Your opposition to Catholicism is irrational and abstract. It serves no purpose at all except to satisfy your ego and make you feel superior to others way of life.

Thanks for the analysis, Dr Freud. Have you considered a career in psychology? Because your ability to deduce the motivations of complete strangers over the Internet is simply amazing!


Why is it egotistical? For the simple fact that people like to believe that they are part of some enlightened elite and that other people are just "sheeple". Sure, opposition to religion is fine and good, but looking down on people for their superstitions is not cool.

If I "looked down" on religious people, I would not even bother trying to argue with them. But I know that people can break out of whatever habits of non-thought that religion has instilled in them. I may not be able to de-convert people over the internet, but I continue in the hope that something sticks.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

It means that when you are attacking the Church, you are not attacking the root cause. It is as simplistic as blaming immigrants for things. It is a mere symptom of a deeper problem.



How is it wrong or contradictory to the aims of revolutionary socialists? Traditions fade with time and are replaced by new ones, so chill and wait.



Yes, clerical Islam has much more power and influence and is way much more of a threat to the working class. Why aren't you *****ing about Islam then?



I see no difference between what is proposed and the EDL.



I like opium. It rocks. So what? You want to get rid of opium too? It helps millions of people to relax. Is that so bad?
By that logic, many specific campaigns can be deemed unworthy as they do not specifically attack the root cause of the problems they present. We could dismiss many areas of our criticism as these areas are merely symptoms of our system. That would be a stupid idea. The Catholic Church should not be exempt from criticism, it is not the root cause of the problems we face but it plays an important role in them

Chill and wait? Where has that ever got anyone? At the very least, the Catholic Church should be stripped of its power, the priests who have gotten away with rape should be tried, and their whole organizational structure should be changed, so that the church is ran democratically by its followers, in order to represent Catholic workers genuinely. This would happen in a revolutionary situation, so why should we refrain from discussing it, or refrain from criticizing the current mode of organizational structure that the Catholic Church abides to? We do not refrain from discussing the overthrow of our governments, why are the holy catholic church exempt from this? The simple fact is that many Catholics play into their organizations' hands; it is a sad truth but I think, more and more, that it is an important problem to speak out against.

The places where Islam is a genuine threat are the places where Islam is seen as an answer to the problems of terrible war, poverty and death. In the UK, there are a tiny number of Muslims, and their organizations' power is absolutely disproportionate to the power of the Catholic Church. Islamic clergy is just as bad as Catholic, but it is not nearly as powerful or influential. All religious organizations should be stripped of any influence in politics and law; religion has no place in a hierarchical, powerful organization; it should be a matter completely separate from the work of the state. If religious institutions have to exist, they should serve only to represent the spiritual wishes of their followers - it would be a bold statement if you were to say that religious organizations now only operate with their followers' interests in mind.

"I see no difference between what is proposed and the EDL." Then you do not understand my position.

I don't even see the point in justifying your final paragraph with an answer. You're a dogmatic Catholic, too blinded by your faith to see that the organization that represents you is an enemy of the working class and the revolution!

[777]

By that logic, many specific campaigns can be deemed unworthy as they do not specifically attack the root cause of the problems they present.

Quite true.


. . . it is not the root cause of the problems we face but it plays an important role in them

Demonstrate how.


At the very least, the Catholic Church should be stripped of its power,

What power?


the priests who have gotten away with rape should be tried,

True.


and their whole organizational structure should be changed, so that the church is ran democratically by its followers, in order to represent Catholic workers genuinely.

Yeah, its called being a protestant. People are free to choose wether or not they believe in what the Catholic church professes. The Catholic church isn't one of those "hey, let's make up what we believe as we go along" type of churches, that is what protestants are for.


This would happen in a revolutionary situation,

Would it? why? Is it really necessary?


so why should we refrain from discussing it, or refrain from criticizing the current mode of organizational structure that the Catholic Church abides to?

Discuss it and spread ideas all you want, but getting a gang of snobby atheist wankers together to piss in the chips of British Catholics is just poo.


We do not refrain from discussing the overthrow of our governments, why are the holy catholic church exempt from this?

Catholic Church isn't a government dumbass! It does not impose on anybody.


The simple fact is that many Catholics play into their organizations' hands; it is a sad truth but I think, more and more, that it is an important problem to speak out against.

huh?


In the UK, there are a tiny number of Muslims, and their organizations' power is absolutely disproportionate to the power of the Catholic Church.

You keep talking about this supposed power and authority of the Church, but I see no evidence of this power or authority.


Islamic clergy is just as bad as Catholic, but it is not nearly as powerful or influential.

Tell that to it's followers.


All religious organizations should be stripped of any influence in politics and law;

Quite right.


religion has no place in a hierarchical, powerful organization; it should be a matter completely separate from the work of the state.

Also quite right.


If religious institutions have to exist, they should serve only to represent the spiritual wishes of their followers

Well, that is a private matter and depends on what you want out of a religion. Some people quite simply do not want a hippy new-age religion where they just do whatever makes em feel good. Some people crave order and firm tradition, it fulfills them.


- it would be a bold statement if you were to say that religious organizations now only operate with their followers' interests in mind.


How so?


"I see no difference between what is proposed and the EDL." Then you do not understand my position.

You're right, I don't. It seems like a bigoted and reactionary position.



You're a dogmatic Catholic, too blinded by your faith to see that the organization that represents you is an enemy of the working class and the revolution!



Actually, I'm a nihilist. Who said I was Catholic?