"Solidarity" with Palestinians/Arabs/Muslim world

[Invincible Summer]

So I don't get why some leftists try to show solidarity with Palestinians and Muslims (against Western imperialism/Zionism I suppose) by donning keffiyahs, headscarves, and even sometimes converting to Islam (or being a pseudo-Muslim by which one has not converted but is very, very, very sympathetic to the religion).

It just seems really bizarre to me... like "I have so much solidarity I'm going to make use of Muslim/Arab aesthetics and beliefs to prove how much solidarity I have." You don't see people who are really caught up in other anti-imperialist conflicts really take on the cultural aesthetic, maybe because there aren't that many visible symbols of solidarity? The Keffiyah and headscarves and visuals of the Arabic language are very provocative and powerful images in this day and age. I guess I feel that it's more for "shocking the mainstream Westerner" than anything else.

Sometimes I doubt whether the people who convert or are very sympathetic to Islam do so for the counter-culture value or they actually believe that "there is no god but God and Muhammad is his prophet."


I might get flamed, and I may very well be ignorant of something here, but I would like someone to enlighten me.

[BuddhaInBabylon]

i personally haven't seen this sort of thing but i imagine there is some merit to your speculations.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Well of course I wear a Keffiyeh in support of Palestine. But this is no reason because I want to "shock the US", but rather just to show where my support goes to. I don't care what others think, because their thoughts are quite useless when compared to the thoughts within the movement of supporting places like Palestine.

[Who?]

I honestly don't understand why you're complaining. Activists can choose to show their solidarity however they like. You should support visual signs of resistance to Zionism and imperialism, not bring them into question. The visual signs of solidarity show the populace that there are those who are standing up for the Palestinians, it shows them that not all westerners are on the side of the imperialists/Zionists. It also communicates to the oppressed that they have supporters in countries abroad and not to lose faith in the struggle.

[Homo Songun]

Keffiyah are worn by plenty of Christians, secular nationalists and Marxists in Palestine. Its just a scarf. It is a bit played out as a fad in North America, though.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Keffiyah are worn by plenty of Christians, secular nationalists and Marxists in Palestine. Its just a scarf. It is a bit played out as a fad in North America, though.

Not where I live! lol

[gorillafuck]

The real reason people wear keffiyehs is because they look cool, the political statement is secondary. People I see wearing keffiyehs are always people who look like they are already into fashion. I never see someone wearing generic clothes like a t-shirt and jeans but also a keffiyeh.

[The Vegan Marxist]

The real reason people wear keffiyehs is because they look cool, the political statement is secondary. People I see wearing keffiyehs are always people who look like they are already into fashion, I never see someone wearing generic clothes like a t-shirt and jeans but also a keffiyeh.

Then you haven't met me (obviously). When you live in a town where there's maybe 20 communists, & the vast majority are white trash conservatives, something like a Keffiyeh is not something you use as a "fashion statement".

[gorillafuck]

Then you haven't met me (obviously). When you live in a town where there's maybe 20 communists, & the vast majority are white trash conservatives, something like a Keffiyeh is not something you use as a "fashion statement".
White trash? That's a hateful classist word. Don't use it.

I'm not saying it's has no political statement with it, but everyone who I've ever met who wore a keffiyeh as a political statement was also already into fashion, and when I see people I don't know wear it they almost always look like they're into fashion. That's just my observation.

[The Vegan Marxist]

White trash? That's a hateful classist word. Don't use it.

I'm not saying it's has no political statement with it, but everyone who I've ever met who wore a keffiyeh as a political statement was also already into fashion, and when I see people I don't know wear it they almost always look like they're into fashion. That's just my observation.

Hateful classist word? It's a bunch of racist white conservatives. I'm white as well, but that doesn't make me condone to their measures or beliefs, so I use a word - that's all it is - to distinctly determine differences between myself & them.

[gorillafuck]

Hateful classist word? It's a bunch of racist white conservatives. I'm white as well, but that doesn't make me condone to their measures or beliefs, so I use a word - that's all it is - to distinctly determine differences between myself & them.
How is it not a classist word? It's a word used to describe poor rural whites.

[The Vegan Marxist]

How is it not a classist word? It's a word used to describe poor rural whites.

A good number of them are bourgeoisie. Yes, there's a good amount of working class, but they're more within the Latino population here.

[gorillafuck]

A good number of them are bourgeoisie. Yes, there's a good amount of working class, but they're more within the Latino population here.
But white trash is a word used to refer to poor rural whites.

[The Vegan Marxist]

But white trash is a word used to refer to poor rural whites.

Idk where you're from, but where I came out of the projects, white trash meant nothing but racist white people.

[gorillafuck]

Idk where you're from, but where I came out of the projects, white trash meant nothing but racist white people.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=define%3A+white+trash&aq=0&aqi=l1g2&aql=&oq=white+trash+defi&gs_rfai=CUryMqQNqTNa8IJXcygTKj7DICgAAAKoEBU_QeMZo

[The Vegan Marxist]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=define%3A+white+trash&aq=0&aqi=l1g2&aql=&oq=white+trash+defi&gs_rfai=CUryMqQNqTNa8IJXcygTKj7DICgAAAKoEBU_QeMZo

Hmmm...well regardless of how it's been used, in my area, white trash only meant racist white people. We'd call rich white's that were racist "white trash".

[727Goon]

File it under "shit white people shouldnt do". Seriously a non Muslim wearing a muslim head scarf is probably on the same level as white boy dreads.

[727Goon]

But not all white people wear the scarves for temperature reasons. A well made scarf can be an essential part of a white ensemble, allowing for all-important differentiation from other white people wearing the exact same clothes as them. Thus allowing them to be picked out of the crowd for dating or mocking purposes

“I like the guy in the white American Apparel shirt with the glasses.”

“Which one? there are eight.”

“The guy with the keffiyeh.”

“Oh yeah, you’re right. He does look smarter and more political than the other guys. He’s clearly more sensitive to wind, so he’s probably more sensitive in general. You should totally date him.”
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/04/30/97-scarves/

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

File it under "shit white people shouldnt do". Seriously a non Muslim wearing a muslim head scarf is probably on the same level as white boy dreads.

Keffiyahs are not Islamic though. And since when are there not already white Muslims?

Allah is his prophet."

Muslims don't believe Allah was a prophet.

[Revy]

So I don't get why some leftists try to show solidarity with Palestinians and Muslims (against Western imperialism/Zionism I suppose) by donning keffiyahs, headscarves, and even sometimes converting to Islam (or being a pseudo-Muslim by which one has not converted but is very, very, very sympathetic to the religion).

It just seems really bizarre to me... like "I have so much solidarity I'm going to make use of Muslim/Arab aesthetics and beliefs to prove how much solidarity I have." You don't see people who are really caught up in other anti-imperialist conflicts really take on the cultural aesthetic, maybe because there aren't that many visible symbols of solidarity? The Keffiyah and headscarves and visuals of the Arabic language are very provocative and powerful images in this day and age. I guess I feel that it's more for "shocking the mainstream Westerner" than anything else.

Sometimes I doubt whether the people who convert or are very sympathetic to Islam do so for the counter-culture value or they actually believe that "there is no god but God and Allah is his prophet."


I might get flamed, and I may very well be ignorant of something here, but I would like someone to enlighten me.

I think you're on to something about the counter-culture value of religions. In the '60s and '70s it was religions like Hinduism and Buddhism.

If you're a theist, it's easy to bounce from religion to religion because you'll believe anything.

Most people know that God doesn't exist, they just choose to believe. It's definitely a delusion.

[bricolage]

white kids with keffiyehs are seriously begging it.

[Wanted Man]

How interesting, a thread where a bunch of people go on about how white people should "act white" (and black people should "act black", presumably). In fairness, that's not even the intention of the OP, but it has developed quickly.

Oh well, as a local former fascist leader once said, "There is only one thing worse than a negro, and that's a white negro". Good to see this kind of healthy racial thinking on Revleft as well.

[Invincible Summer]

I honestly don't understand why you're complaining. Activists can choose to show their solidarity however they like. You should support visual signs of resistance to Zionism and imperialism, not bring them into question.
Whoa shit, sorry for thinking critically about things.

I'm questioning the intentions of some leftists, is all. I realize it's not really my problem or whatever, but it just seems a bit immature to be like "Man I really feel for those Palestinians and Muslims who get pushed around all the time... I know... I'll be a Muslim too and wear Muslim/Arabic things to show my support!"


The visual signs of solidarity show the populace that there are those who are standing up for the Palestinians, it shows them that not all westerners are on the side of the imperialists/Zionists.
It also communicates to the oppressed that they have supporters in countries abroad and not to lose faith in the struggle.Yes, but it seems only specific to Palestinians/Muslims/Arabs. There are plenty of anti-imperialist struggles that take place in other parts of the world, but it seems that Western lefties choose to appropriate the aesthetics of Palestinian/Muslim culture almost exclusively. It just seems like a "counter-culture" (given the political climate against Islam in the West) way of showing one's politics. There is a certain "shock" value to it. Much like people who wear Mao or Stalin shirts.





Muslims don't believe Allah was a prophet.
I meant Muhammad. I edited my post.



How interesting, a thread where a bunch of people go on about how white people should "act white" (and black people should "act black", presumably). In fairness, that's not even the intention of the OP, but it has developed quickly.

Oh well, as a local former fascist leader once said, "There is only one thing worse than a negro, and that's a white negro". Good to see this kind of healthy racial thinking on Revleft as well.

I realize you're not directing this at me, but I will reply anyway.

It's not that white people should "just act white" and so on, but rather that some leftists/activists seem to almost take a lifestylist approach to solidarity, conflating political support with emotional/spiritual attachment.

[Devrim]

So I don't get why some leftists try to show solidarity with Palestinians and Muslims (against Western imperialism/Zionism I suppose) by donning keffiyahs, headscarves, and even sometimes converting to Islam (or being a pseudo-Muslim by which one has not converted but is very, very, very sympathetic to the religion).

I think there is a bit of a difference between wearing a checked scarf and converting to Islam.


white kids with keffiyehs are seriously begging it.

I always thought Arabs and Kurds were white anyway. :confused:

Devrim

[bricolage]

I always thought Arabs and Kurds were white anyway. :confused:
I suppose I meant white English. Also the social position of being white in the UK I see as more than being 'not black', and Arabs and Kurds are probably just as likely to get stopped and searched or dodgy looks on tubes and, says, those with African/Caribbean heritage.

I think I care less about kids with keffiyahs who just think they look cool, I just get pissed off with the 'yeah I do it because I really feel solidarity with the Palestinians, what you don't? here buy a scarf'. A lot of it seems to come from this romanticised ideal of the mystical Arab, culturally and ethnically inherently prone to 'resistance'. I'd definitely say Orientalist ideals come into a lot of left policies towards the 'middle east'.

[freepalestine]

So I don't get why some leftists try to show solidarity with Palestinians and Muslims (against Western imperialism/Zionism I suppose) by donning keffiyahs, headscarves, and even sometimes converting to Islam (or being a pseudo-Muslim by which one has not converted but is very, very, very sympathetic to the religion).

It just seems really bizarre to me... like "I have so much solidarity I'm going to make use of Muslim/Arab aesthetics and beliefs to prove how much solidarity I have." You don't see people who are really caught up in other anti-imperialist conflicts really take on the cultural aesthetic, maybe because there aren't that many visible symbols of solidarity? what makes you say all that,lol?keffiyahs arent a muslim thing.i guess they were more of a leftist thing of the 70s,than of today




The Keffiyah and headscarves and visuals of the Arabic language are very provocative and powerful images in this day and age. I guess I feel that it's more for "shocking the mainstream Westerner" than anything else.

Sometimes I doubt whether the people who convert or are very sympathetic to Islam do so for the counter-culture value or they actually believe that "there is no god but God and Muhammad is his prophet."


I might get flamed, and I may very well be ignorant of something here, but I would like someone to enlighten me.i guess it says more about western ignorance ,especially over the past 15 years or so,than about the arabs,or arabic language.as for westerners conversion to islam/christianity et cetera, how rebellious must that be!

[777]

Well, one good thing that has come out of the shemagh being worn in popular culture is that it is known as a "Palestinian scarf". . . not an "Israeli scarf". People now know who Palestinians are now, people who otherwise would not.

But who is to say that wearing a scarf is only to be attributed to certain populations? Surely it is merely an item and therefore doesn't belong to specific cultures or even religions.

The people of Palestine are of different religions, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Bahai, pagan and atheist. The shemagh has nothing to do with religion.

I wear a shemagh because it keeps my neck warm, hides my face, or keeps me cool in the sun. The symbolic value it has is of little importance because few people will know its significance.

Personally, I do not like Islam and the only aspect of Arab culture I like is the mint tea, fig cakes and hooka-pipe cafe culture. I do however support the Palestinian peoples fight against such blatant oppression. There's not much I can do about it except make others aware of the injustices.

let people wear what they want for whatever reasons they want, the same with religion.

[progressive_lefty]

I think there's a point that's been made before, about the misdirection of some of the pro-Palestinian movements. Or criticism that these movements aren't specific to the issues that can easily be argued for the Palestinians (ie. the World Court, the human rights organisations, International Law, American funding, Jimmy Carter..). Emphasising that we cannot afford to alienate people about the facts, the facts that support the Palestinians.
On that point, I agree, because currently where I live, I don't feel like I believe in the tactics that the for Palestine movement in my city argues for. They seem to be about getting rid of Israel altogether, which isn't realistic, and never ever focus on the World Court, International Law or the human rights organisations. It encourages me to set up my own little group, that can actually talk to people on a logical and rational level about the facts, the facts that demonstrate the illegality of many of Israel's actions.

So in regard to your post, maybe I can relate a little, as long as your talking about non-muslim white people wearing the Islamic scarfs..

[Devrim]

Well, one good thing that has come out of the shemagh being worn in popular culture is that it is known as a "Palestinian scarf". . . not an "Israeli scarf". People now know who Palestinians are now, people who otherwise would not.


If people only 'know who the Palestinians are' from a scarf, and not from the fact that it is constantly in the news, then they can't be very interested in the world around them.

Devrim

[Barry Lyndon]

I'm an atheist and I wear the scarf, and have worn it before it became 'fashionable'. It is NOT a religious symbol at all. Palestinian Muslims, Christians, secularists(including yes Marxists like the PFLP) wear it.
It's totally legit, in my view.

[Invincible Summer]

Just to be clear, I realize that the keffiyah is not a religious symbol and has nothing to do with Islam, but I'm (perhaps foolishly) just lumping pro-Palestinian and Islamic sympathizers together for simplicity of argument.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

If people only 'know who the Palestinians are' from a scarf, and not from the fact that it is constantly in the news, then they can't be very interested in the world around them.

Devrim

Most people who dont have some kind of link to it through their cultural background, seem to wear it to be fashionable.

If you want an example of pro israeli groups' people wearing it, look no further than the "fascist" EDL and a young white girl in stoke ontrent (think its a keffiyeh, my visions a bit blurry without my reading glasses):

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47172000/jpg/_47172628_edl_uaf_march11.jpg

[The Red Next Door]

I am really getting sick of People saying how whites and blacks are suppose to behave. Just shut the fuck up, if you have nothing good to say.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

Whoops, I meant in the west, as in fashion trends in the west. My point wasnt about white people, people of all colours wear them obviously. Its a fashion trend in the UK and America at the moment and that was the point of the post.

[freepalestine]

on a serious note-it's better to get a kaffiyeh made in palestine.solidarity groups sell them.rather than buying the cheaply made chinese kafiyehs that seem tobe everywhere these days

[The Red Next Door]

on a serious note-it's better to get a kaffiyeh made in palestine.solidarity groups sell them.rather than buying the cheaply made chinese kafiyehs that seem tobe everywhere these days

I am going to mine from a Muslim center.

[Palestine]

Seriously a non Muslim wearing a muslim head scarf is probably on the same level as white boy dreads.

Slow down a bit comrade, its not a Muslim head scarf, it's worn by Christians too, it's simply a multi-use head wear, you can wear it on your head, wrap it around your neck in cold days, or to protect your head when working in a field on a hot day, and it was used by the Palestinian resistance to hide their faces, thus it has the symbolic solidarity with Palestinian resistance.

[freepalestine]

I am going to mine from a Muslim center. ok.although a solidarity group will sell them cheaper,and the money is used for palestine solidarity.and their kaffiyehs etc,will be made in palestine.available in black&white or red and white

[Devrim]

ok.although solidarity group will sell them cheaper,and the money is used for palestine solidarity.and kaffiyehs etc,are from palestine.available in black&white or red and white

Does it matter if they are from Palestine? Does it look any different depending on where it was made?

Devrim

[Palestine]

Does it matter if they are from Palestine? Does it look any different depending on where it was made?

Devrim

Hell Ya the Quality is totally different what you get from Palestine will be thicker

[Devrim]

Hell Ya the Quality is totally different what you get from Palestine will be thicker

I don't think so. You can by the thin type or the more expensive thicker ones here in Turkey, which are of course both locally made. It just depends how much you want to pay. The thin type will cost about $3 and the thicker one about $7.

It is not about quality though. The thin one is too protect you from the sun in the summer, and the thick one from the cold in the winter. The area of the country where they are most popular has a temperature range from -40 to +40 degrees C.

It is a functional difference not a quality one.

Devrim

[727Goon]

The capitalist in me says there'd be some serious motherfuckin money to be made off these well meaning white folks who are "down with the struggle". Perhaps turning the kaffiyeh into the new che shirt or an ironic halloween costume type thing for hipsters, or opening an Allah's Ak Bar and Grill franchise could be profitable.

[The Vegan Marxist]

or opening an Allah's Ak Bar and Grill franchise could be profitable.

Yeah, if you don't mind a bunch of tea-baggers protesting every damn day outside the bar & grill.

[t.shonku]

I express my solidarity with Palestine resistance and rest of the Arab world,I stand beside them.
The whole “war on terror thing” that US has created is just a smoke screen, the real motive is to steal Arab oil.And as communist it’s our duty to stop US’s “chess game” in Middle-East by hook or by crook.
Long Live Palestine.Long Live Arabia and Arabs.
You will see my Comrades soon after US withdraws from Afghanistan(US has already fled from Iraq),there will be Arab uprising everywhere.Soon Palestine will be free.

[The Douche]

I express my solidarity with Palestine resistance and rest of the Arab world,I stand beside them.
The whole “war on terror thing” that US has created is just a smoke screen, the real motive is to steal Arab oil.And as communist it’s our duty to stop US’s “chess game” in Middle-East by hook or by crook.
Long Live Palestine.Long Live Arabia and Arabs.
You will see my Comrades soon after US withdraws from Afghanistan(US has already fled from Iraq),there will be Arab uprising everywhere.Soon Palestine will be free.
lolwut

[Devrim]

Long Live Palestine.Long Live Arabia and Arabs.
You will see my Comrades soon after US withdraws from Afghanistan(US has already fled from Iraq),there will be Arab uprising everywhere.Soon Palestine will be free.

Please remember that Afghans are not Arabs, either ethnically, or linguistically.

Never mind what you suggest seems as much as a fantasy as US pre-war plans.

Devrim

[Devrim]

in europe a psc's sell kafiyehs at 5euro.all proceeds from kafiyurs and other goods go to palestine comunitys.so quality is irrelevent really.its not so abstract,comrade

I am not in solidarity with Palestinian nationalism.

Devrim

[NGNM85]

I am not in solidarity with Palestinian nationalism.

Devrim

Why not?

[freepalestine]

I am not in solidarity with ..nationalism. Devrimok.but who mentioned nationalism?how is supporting/solidarity for oppressedcommunitys/peoples,the same as supporting nationalism?

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

ok.but who mentioned nationalism?how is supporting/solidarity for oppressedcommunitys/peoples,the same as supporting nationalism?Arafat as head of the nation sparked the take-up in the keffiyeh as a symbol of national resistance, so how exactly is it not tied up with nationalism and more importantly, how can you couple supporting a nation-state with not being nationalist? You are just manipulating the term to suit yourself. Irish republicans do exactly the same thing, its a common thinking among marxist-leninist leftism.

[freepalestine]

Arafat as head of the nation sparked the take-up in the keffiyeh as a symbol of national resistance, so how exactly is it not tied up with nationalism and more importantly, how can you couple supporting a nation-state with not being nationalist? You are just manipulating the term to suit yourself. Irish republicans do exactly the same thing, its a common thinking among marxist-leninist leftism.lol,what kind of pathetic rant was that.also get your facts right.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

lol,what kind of pathetic rant was that.also get your facts right.

Then correct me?

[The Douche]

Here we go again, ideology being more important than political reality.

Every single day Israeli soldiers kill palestinians and steal their homes and land. How in the fuck would life not be better under the palestinian bourgeoisie?

[gorillafuck]

Long Live Arabia and Arabs.
Arabia?:confused:

[Kiev Communard]

Actually the whole idea of Arab Nationalism seems extremely far-fetched, given the profound differences and regional variations between different Arab states/nations. The failure of such ideologies as Baathism and Nasserism and virtual collapse of Palestinian Nationalism, which as a mass ideology has been supplanted by al-Hamas Islamism, are further proofs to this.

[Devrim]

ok.but who mentioned nationalism?how is supporting/solidarity for oppressedcommunitys/peoples,the same as supporting nationalism?

Which organisations does the money collected by these solidarity campaigns go to. I am pretty certain, for example, that much of it collected in this country goes directly to HAMAS, or its front organisations, given the close links between many of the charities collecting money for 'Palestine' here and HAMAS. Now I am sure that HAMAS does a lot of good charity work, but I don't support its political agenda in anyway.



I am not in solidarity with Palestinian nationalism.Why not?

Because I don't think that it has anything to offer the working class.


Here we go again, ideology being more important than political reality.

Every single day Israeli soldiers kill palestinians and steal their homes and land. How in the fuck would life not be better under the palestinian bourgeoisie?

Do you think that an 'independent Palestine' is even possible? I don't. If there is a Palestinian state in the foreseeable future, it will be one that preforms the police function for Israel, a sort of 'Bantustan'.

Devrim

[Barry Lyndon]

Arafat as head of the nation sparked the take-up in the keffiyeh as a symbol of national resistance, so how exactly is it not tied up with nationalism and more importantly, how can you couple supporting a nation-state with not being nationalist? You are just manipulating the term to suit yourself. Irish republicans do exactly the same thing, its a common thinking among marxist-leninist leftism.

Leftists should show solidarity with people who are fighting to throw off the shackles of imperialism, and the Israeli occupation is a classic colonial occupation. I know that left-communists don't give a shit about the victims of imperialism(just like how they think that anti-fascism is some big fucking joke), but there is a significant difference between the nationalism of a group attempting to be autonomous from colonial rule and an imperial power using nationalism to justify the exploitation and domination of others.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

but there is a significant difference between the nationalism of a group attempting to be autonomous from colonial rule and an imperial power using nationalism to justify the exploitation and domination of others.

Yes there is anti-colonial rhetoric from Hamas, it is still nationalist (freepalestine argued it wasn't).


Leftists should show solidarity with people who are fighting to throw off the shackles of imperialism, and the Israeli occupation is a classic colonial occupation.

Leftists often show solidarity with national governments even when there aren't wars or occupations in progress. left-communists dont / shouldnt because it is inherent to the political tradition.

One good reason why you shouldnt support governments is because historically, a lot of countries that are now quite openly exploiting, Israel itself being one big example, had a lot of support from leftists for independence against the colonialists / imperialists. Some people on here even support China.


I know that left-communists don't give a shit about the victims of imperialism(just like how they think that anti-fascism is some big fucking joke)

This is essentially just overfuelled arguing.

[The Douche]

Do you think that an 'independent Palestine' is even possible? I don't. If there is a Palestinian state in the foreseeable future, it will be one that preforms the police function for Israel, a sort of 'Bantustan'.

I don't really think communism is very possible (certainly not in my lifetime, and I wouldn't be suprised if the ruling classes destroy this world before revolution succeeds) but that doesn't mean I don't support struggling for it.

I know for sure that an independent palestine is not possible if nobody supports the idea.

[Barry Lyndon]

a) Yes there is anti-colonial rhetoric from Hamas, it is still nationalist (freepalestine argued it wasn't).

b) Leftists often show solidarity with national governments even when there aren't wars or occupations in progress. left-communists dont / shouldnt because it is inherent to the political tradition.

c) One good reason why you shouldnt support governments is because historically, a lot of countries that are now quite openly exploiting, Israel itself being one big example, had a lot of support from leftists for independence against the colonialists / imperialists. Some people on here even support China.

a) I don't support Hamas. I'm much more into the PFLP.

b) Your changing the subject. I'm not talking about national movements once independence is achieved. I'm talking about anti-colonial struggles.

c) I'm not 'some people on here'.

[Devrim]

Leftists should show solidarity with people who are fighting to throw off the shackles of imperialism, and the Israeli occupation is a classic colonial occupation. I know that left-communists don't give a shit about the victims of imperialism(just like how they think that anti-fascism is some big fucking joke), but there is a significant difference between the nationalism of a group attempting to be autonomous from colonial rule and an imperial power using nationalism to justify the exploitation and domination of others.

The whole problem is what 'fighting imperialism' means. Imperialism is not a policy of particularly 'bad' capitalist states, but a characterisation of the current epoch. The world system itself is imperialist today.

Because of this, for us, national liberation is an impossibility today. Small nations can not be 'free', but merely come under the domination of other powers. In effect national liberation movements get used as proxies of rival powers, and workers get used by them as cannon fodder in imperialist conflicts.

The fact today that the US is unrivalled as the major imperialist power accounts for the weakness of those national liberation movements that line up against it, and conversely the success of those who line up alongside the US, for example the Kurdish movement in Iraq.

If we look realistically at the possibilities in the future of the Palestinian situation, I can see four:

1) The situation carries on much the same as it is.

2) The Palestinians are given some sort of 'greater autonomy' in a sort of 'bantustan'.

3) Israel manages to expel the Palestinians to Jordan.

4) There is a 'Palestinian victory'. This would involve a major change in the international balance of terror, and regional, at least, war.

I see the first as probably the most likely, and the fourth as the least. None of these situations, however, would be particularly good for the Palestinians.

The question arises then of what should communists do. I think that the first thing to realise is that it is the working class that can change the world, not tiny groups of 'revolutionaries' by will power alone, and we must realise that, the working class isn't strong enough to effect the situation. In fact, the working class in Palestine is probably the weakest in the entire region.

For most leftists, these sort of questions do not enter the picture. They are quite happy to call for workers to lay down their lives in pursuit of some imaginary national liberation, and on the way abandon any prospects for arguing for class autonomy whatsoever, however small they may already be.

It is not that "left-communists don't give a shit about the victims of imperialism". It is that we don't see that calling for them to lay down their lives in the interests of their class enemies offers anything to them.

As for anti-fascism, I don't really think that the fact that we refuse to line up with politicians from bourgeois parties who have a record of attacking both emigrants and the working class more than an 'fascist' can imagine in all but there wildest fantasies, is a bad thing.

Devrim

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

a) I don't support Hamas. I'm much more into the PFLP.

The PFLP are not very powerful in Palestine anymore, they also used individual acts of terror to try and make powerful political gains and continue to follow a national path, sitting in the PLO and to some level, working with Hamas and mediating relations between different national groups.


b) Your changing the subject. I'm not talking about national movements once independence is achieved. I'm talking about anti-colonial struggles.

The movement is completely based around palestinian independence, independence without israeli / world interference is its one and main objective. A lot of leftists who have supported the movement have gone on to support lebanon as well as others (even supporting turkish anti-imperialist credentials by hoisting up turkish flags, their recent approval of iran has made them look good in the eyes of many).

[28350]

File it under "shit white people shouldnt do". Seriously a non Muslim wearing a muslim head scarf is probably on the same level as white boy dreads.

I have never seen a white boy with dreads.
I have seen white men with dreads.
More power to them.
Hairstyle/clothing is not the essence of a culture.
And even still, cultures are not exclusive.
"Acting black" only exists in the minds of racists.
"Stuff white people like" stems from the same bullshit.

[Homo Songun]

Right now, I'm slurping down a Starbucks in my Land Rover parked in the garage of my live/work loft located in my formerly African American inner city neighborhood. Naturally, I'm wearing my three piece suit made wholly of keffiyat. And the tears of Native American children. Oh yeah, I'm a record executive.

[freepalestine]

Yes there is anti-colonial rhetoric from Hamas, it is still nationalist (freepalestine argued it wasn't). you talk about 'leftists showing solidarity..'-as if leftists are all westerners.also i never mentioned hamas-so get your facts right please

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

you talk about 'leftists showing solidarity..'-as if leftists are all westerners.

Not particularly, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion? Even if that were true, if a 'westerner' actually backed up their convictions by going and fighting with the PFLP (and I know people who have done this), then I wouldn;t say they are cowardly, even though their politics suck.


also i never mentioned hamas-so get your facts right please

Then who exactly are you referring to? Or are you referring to all of palestine, in which case that..includes hamas.

[freepalestine]

Which organisations does the money collected by these solidarity campaigns go to. I am certain, for example, that much of it collected in this country goes directly to HAMAS,given the close links between many charities collecting money for 'Palestine' here and HAMAS..I don't support its political agenda.international mainstream soidarity groups(eg.ism-psa etc) money etc,helps communitys/projects etc-its not just about money .i cant speak for muslimcharities in turky etc.

[Devrim]

international mainstream soidarity groups(eg.ism-psa etc) money etc,helps communitys/projects etc-its not just about money .i cant speak for muslimcharities in turky etc.

And of course organisations like the ISM are not at all pro-Palestinian nationalism:


About ISM

Who We Are
The International Solidarity Movement (ISM) is a Palestinian-led movement committed to resisting the Israeli apartheid in Palestine by using nonviolent, direct-action methods and principles. Founded by a small group of primarily Palestinian and Israeli activists in August, 2001, ISM aims to support and strengthen the Palestinian popular resistance by providing the Palestinian people with two resources, international solidarity and an international voice with which to nonviolently resist an overwhelming military occupation force.


Nothing about class at all, which shouldn't surprise us because this is purely a nationalist project.

Devrim

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

Are there any groups in Palestine / exiled from it,that you are engaged in polemics with?

I haven't see any groups that are orientated anywhere near class-struggle in Palestine. I have been told by an anarchist friend in contact with people in Palestine that a couple of times, similar blocs of workers have actually tried to break the initiative of nationalist strikes into being about class issues, but I dont have any first-hand contact so it is pretty much 100% speculative.

[freepalestine]

why did he get banned.as for the icc(whatever they are)in my opinion,their ideas of the working class are far from reality.shouting 'nationalist or bourgeouisie' at anything doesnt get whatever abstract view they have anywhere.

[Homo Songun]

It's a bit like lecturing a man trapped under a boulder that 'gravity is your real problem', isn't it?

[Stand Your Ground]

File it under "shit white people shouldnt do". Seriously a non Muslim wearing a muslim head scarf is probably on the same level as white boy dreads.
And why can't white people have dreads?

[727Goon]

I have never seen a white boy with dreads.
I have seen white men with dreads.
More power to them.
Hairstyle/clothing is not the essence of a culture.
And even still, cultures are not exclusive.
"Acting black" only exists in the minds of racists.
"Stuff white people like" stems from the same bullshit.

Dreads are a hairstyle mean for black textured hair, so it generally doesn't look good on white people. As for "Acting black" if you don't think that black and white people have different cultures your tripping, and most white people who try and act black enumlate the worst stereotypes of black culture to the point of being ridiculous.

[727Goon]

And why can't white people have dreads?

I mean to be fair I don't think most black people should have dreads either, but I have never seen a white person able to pull it off. Ever.

[Homo Songun]

Dreads are a hairstyle mean for black textured hair, so it generally doesn't look good on white people. As for "Acting black" if you don't think that black and white people have different cultures your tripping, and most white people who try and act black enumlate the worst stereotypes of black culture to the point of being ridiculous.No offense but I think you are technically and politically incorrect (lol) here. Perhaps what you are thinking of are white "rastas", who are pretty annoying?

But saying curly hair is more amenable to dreadlocks is like saying straight hair is more amenable to being combed, which is dumb.

Also, people in the Indian subcontinent have been wearing dreads for thousands of years before Ras Tafari was born. Likewise certain Native American tribes traditionally locked up their hair.

Both groups of people generally have non-kinky hair so far as I know. Its just something that human beings do.


I have never seen a white person able to pull it off. Ever. Really? Not even Rob Zombie? I always thought he looked pretty bad-ass.

[727Goon]

All I'm saying is it's not a good look on white people. It doesnt occur naturally on white hair, they have to get it permed and shit, so it just doesnt look as good.


Really? Not even Rob Zombie? I always thought he looked pretty bad-ass.

White dreads + prison pussy = no go

[28350]

Dreads are a hairstyle mean for black textured hair, so it generally doesn't look good on white people.
Ha, okay. Thanks for the fashion tip.

As for "Acting black" if you don't think that black and white people have different cultures your tripping,
Of course they do. But these are based on statistical socioeconomic differences, not essential ones.


and most white people who try and act black enumlate the worst stereotypes of black culture to the point of being ridiculous.
So do you think non-Black dreads are trying to "act Black" via dreads? That the reason behind their hairstyle is so they'll be identified with an ethnicity?
Furthermore, are dreads really one of the "worst stereotypes of black culture?"

prison pussy
Let's trivialize rape while we're at it.

[freepalestine]

All I'm saying is it's not a good look on white people. It doesnt occur naturally on white hair, they have to get it permed and shit, so it just doesnt look as good. White dreads + prison pussy = no gowho cares if whites have dreadlocks,or blacks dye their hair blonde.or a non-arab wears a kaffiyeh.its all mindless racial nonsense.about hairstyles ffs??

[727Goon]

So do you think non-Black dreads are trying to "act Black" via dreads? That the reason behind their hairstyle is so they'll be identified with an ethnicity?
Furthermore, are dreads really one of the "worst stereotypes of black culture?"

Maybe, but whatever their reasons are, its not a good look. Thats my main point. And I obviously wasnt talking about dreads, I was talking about white people who act black in general, because you brought up the idea of "acting black".


Let's trivialize rape while we're at it.

Wanna-be tough guy facial hair is serious business!

[727Goon]

who cares if whites have dreadlocks,or blacks dye their hair ginger.or a non-arab wears a kaffiyeh.its all mindless racial nonsense.about hairstyles ffs??

I don't really, I just made an offhand comment that people took very seriously, because this is touchy-ass politically correct revleft where trivial shit gets blown out of proportion.

[t.shonku]

Posted by Devrim


Never mind what you suggest seems as much as a fantasy

You can say me anything you want but the fact is today US is not the same as it once used to be,countries are slowly becoming defiant,let us look at Russia's invasion of Georgia in 2008(remember Georgia is a member of US alliance),do you think Russia would have done it 8to9 yrs ago?Frankly speaking US is loosing grip on Global scale in military,political and economic sphere.And all of these is happening bcoz of US's adventures into Middle east.
Let us look back at history of Roman Empire,it didn't fall bcoz of a superpower enemy but because of it's own weight and in hands of tribes and nomads.Today US is also suffering in hands of a bunch of rag tag Middle Eastern freedom fighter guerrillas.And it's economy is in shambles thanks to it's corporate houses' economic greed and bcoz of it's churches propagation of hate which is causing war and bcoz of which so many young US men are returning home with one leg or one hand.

All empires rises, thrives,and perishes.

[this is an invasion]

File it under "shit white people shouldnt do". Seriously a non Muslim wearing a muslim head scarf is probably on the same level as white boy dreads.

Dreads aren't a strictly Black thing, and I think it's a little racist to say it is. Various groups all over the world (including Irish monks) have had dreads throughout history. I mean it's one of those things that happens on it's own if you don't brush your hair or cut it.


EDIT: I didn't read any posts after this, nor am I trying to help blow this up. I'M JUS' SAYIN' SHIT <3

[Devrim]

Are there any groups in Palestine / exiled from it,that you are engaged in polemics with?

No, there aren't. I don't think that the term 'engaged in polemics with' is a very good one either.;)


I haven't see any groups that are orientated anywhere near class-struggle in Palestine. I have been told by an anarchist friend in contact with people in Palestine that a couple of times, similar blocs of workers have actually tried to break the initiative of nationalist strikes into being about class issues, but I dont have any first-hand contact so it is pretty much 100% speculative.

Even in a place a driven by nationalism and with as defeated a working class as Palestine there are still workers struggles. A good example would be the teacher's strike a few years ago.

Devrim

[Devrim]

as for the icc(whatever they are)in my opinion,their ideas of the working class are far from reality.shouting 'nationalist or bourgeouisie' at anything doesnt get whatever abstract view they have anywhere.

What is closer to reality, another sixty years of the same hell in Palestine?

Devrim

[Devrim]

You can say me anything you want but the fact is today US is not the same as it once used to be,countries are slowly becoming defiant,

It is true. There is a weakening in US control. A major example from this country would be Turkey's invasion of Northern Iraq despite US complaints in 2008.


let us look at Russia's invasion of Georgia in 2008(remember Georgia is a member of US alliance),do you think Russia would have done it 8to9 yrs ago?

Yes, I think that they probably would have. Russia is an ex-super power with a massive nuclear arsenal, a huge army, and it was intervening in its own backyard.

I think that the process that you mention can be seen more in the US' allies becoming less compliant.


Frankly speaking US is loosing grip on Global scale in military,political and economic sphere.And all of these is happening bcoz of US's adventures into Middle east.

The US is loosing a grip. It is not only to do with its adventures in the Middle East though.


Let us look back at history of Roman Empire,it didn't fall bcoz of a superpower enemy but because of it's own weight and in hands of tribes and nomads.Today US is also suffering in hands of a bunch of rag tag Middle Eastern freedom fighter guerrillas.And it's economy is in shambles thanks to it's corporate houses' economic greed and bcoz of it's churches propagation of hate which is causing war and bcoz of which so many young US men are returning home with one leg or one hand.

All empires rises, thrives,and perishes.

What you fail to mention in this analogy is that the 'tribes and nomads' were confronting the Romans in many cases with military superiority. This is not the case today with the 'rag tag Middle Eastern freedom fighter guerrillas'. The analogy doesn't work.

Devrim

[727Goon]

its like that jazzrat?

Neg reppin a nigga and shit.

[KurtFF8]

It's not that white people should "just act white" and so on, but rather that some leftists/activists seem to almost take a lifestylist approach to solidarity, conflating political support with emotional/spiritual attachment.

I agree if they think that wearing a keffiyeh is itself a major political act of solidarity.

But I would venture to say that the majority of those who wear keffiyehs to express support for Palestine don't think that their wearing it is itself a major "act" in itself. If anything it should be their inaction on their own ideas you should be criticizing, not the small act of political expression. (Granted, many in the US likely aren't engaged in organizing solidarity demonstrations and the like but that's a whole different topic)

[freepalestine]

Hell Ya the Quality is totally different what you get from Palestine will be thicker


in europe a psc's sell kafiyehs at 5euro.all proceeds from kafiyurs and other goods go to palestine comunitys.so quality is irrelevent really.its not so abstract,comrade
Advanced (http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=309877) Palestinian scarves made in China
Published Sunday 22/08/2010 (updated) 24/08/2010 09:53
http://www.maannews.net/eng/images/ViewDetails/Eng-1.jpg http://www.maannews.net/eng/images/ViewDetails/Eng+1.jpg





By Georgina Reeves

Owned by the Herbawi family, the last keffiyeh factory in Palestine is located in Hebron. Recently, the story has attracted media interest from Haaretz to Monocle.

But this attention is irrelevant if the factory is unable to compete locally. The textile industry has been all but destroyed by the massive influx of cheap goods from China.

Last week the Herbawi factory received an order for 300 keffiyehs from a French solidarity group. But what good does this do if Palestinians won’t buy locally produced goods? After all, the largest market is right here, in the West Bank.

The patriarch of the family established the business in 1961. Since then it has provided Palestinians and tourists alike with the hatta, another name for the Arab headdress made famous, or infamous, by Yasser Arafat. The Herbawi factory’s looms, all 16 of them, used to run 24 hours a day. The equipment in the relatively small shed wouldn’t look out of place in a textile museum.

Now, just four looms are used regularly, producing the few orders they still receive. The small storeroom, which doubles as the office, was a rather forlorn sight. Packaged and half-finished keffiyehs were stacked up on the shelves and the sofa. Of course, it isn’t just the Herbawi business that suffers. They send out everything to local women to finish by hand, so there’s a real knock-on effect in the community from the lack of trade.

Keffiyehs bought by visitors to the factory are just 20 shekels each. Izzat Herbawi says that the wholesale cost of a Herbawi keffiyeh is 5 shekels more expensive than the Chinese imports. They’ve tried to get support from the Palestinian Authority but so far have received no help. Could it be that the taxes levied on Chinese imports are more important than supporting local businesses? Along with the keffiyehs, nearly everything in Palestine that isn’t food is made in China. (And much of the food is from Israel.)

Earlier that day a German TV crew had pitched up unannounced to film the factory for yet another piece on the last keffiyeh factory in Palestine. Walk through Bethlehem’s old city and you’ll struggle to find a single keffiyeh from Herbawi. All the scarves are from China. Shopkeepers claim their stock is local and high quality but the labels tell a different story. Seventy percent polyester and not “made in Palestine.”

Who would come to Palestine and buy a Chinese keffiyeh? One would presume nearly nobody. Most visitors are coming here explicitly as a form of solidarity, whether religious pilgrims or political activists. No matter the reason for choosing Palestine as a destination, it is likely that all who do come would like to support Palestinian businesses. The handicraft industry is a good example of how a local industry is supported by international visitors, and those products are certainly 100 percent Palestinian.

But the one symbol, more than any other, that is both globally and instantly recognized as Palestinian, isn’t any longer.


The author is a co-founding trustee of Ahdaf, a British charity supporting Palestinian students.
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=309877