Would you be willing to date a trans person?

[Queercommie Girl]

Would you, at least in principle/potentially, be willing to date a trans person? This includes both trans-women, trans-men and genderqueers, and it's a question for everyone: straight, homo and trans alike.

[Achara]

No.

[Il Medico]

Iseul, no offense, but isn't Thomas' thread exactly the same as this one. A little redundant no?

Anyways, yes I would date a transwoman/man/whatever post or pre, doesn't matter much to me.

[Queercommie Girl]

No.

Why not? And just being curious: are you straight and therefore referring to trans-men here?

[Queercommie Girl]

Iseul, no offense, but isn't Thomas' thread exactly the same as this one. A little redundant no?

Anyways, yes I would date a transwoman/man/whatever post or pre, doesn't matter much to me.

It's not the same at all. He was asking whether or not it is bigoted if a straight man decides to not date a trans-woman, he was not directly asking if people are open to dating trans-women.

[RedAnarchist]

Of course I would. If I was attracted to someone who happened to be trans, why wouldn't I?

[Il Medico]

It's not the same at all. He was asking whether or not it is bigoted if a straight man decides to not date a trans-woman, he was not directly asking if people are open to dating trans-women.
Suppose your right, kinda of a semantics thing though. Your going to get similar responses. Also:http://www.revleft.com/vb/would-you-date-t113436/index34.html?highlight=transexual
Basically asked the same thing, just a bit more specific. It didn't end well.

[Queercommie Girl]

Suppose your right, kinda of a semantics thing though. Your going to get similar responses. Also:http://www.revleft.com/vb/would-you-date-t113436/index34.html?highlight=transexual
Basically asked the same thing, just a bit more specific. It didn't end well.

This is not a "witch hunt", if that is what you are concerned about.

I'm not into "witch hunts". I essentially believe in Mao's idea of "continuous revolution", and for me the struggle for trans rights is a part of this "continuous revolution". Therefore I never expect "utopian miracles". In fact, I'd say that compared with China, the attitudes of most people here are generally quite progressive. I mean I haven't even told any socialist based in mainland China that I've worked with about my queer status. At least in the West I can be open about it.

[Achara]

Why not? Because I don't want to.

[Il Medico]

This is not a "witch hunt", if that is what you are concerned about. I am hardly concerned about it, but this thread will mostly likely get turned to the [Person A:"I am not a transphobe but...*Transphobic statement*.." Person B:"Umm...yeah, that was Transphobic...*why it was*" Person A: "Witch Hunt!" Person C who didn't say anything yet, but agrees with person A: "Here, Here!" Person D (Who agrees with person B): "Yeah, no, its not a witch hunt.." Shit fest ensues.] model of threads.


I'm not into "witch hunts". I essentially believe in Mao's idea of "continuous revolution", and for me the struggle for trans rights is a part of this "continuous revolution". Therefore I never expect "utopian miracles". In fact, I'd say that compared with China, the attitudes of most people here are generally quite progressive. I mean I haven't even told any socialist based in mainland China that I've worked with about my queer status. At least in the West I can be open about it.
Perhaps, but that hardly means that the western left gets a free pass on the subject.

[Il Medico]

Because I don't want to.
Why not exactly?

[Achara]

Why not exactly?Why do some people like the taste of coke and others don't? Why do some people like blond hair and others don't? Why do some people try to find an explanation for the myriad of personal preferences in the realm of the social? :blink:

[Achara]

Why do heterosexual men not want to fuck other heterosexual men? :blink:

[Il Medico]

Why do heterosexual men not want to fuck other heterosexual men? :blink:
Because they are straight. Dating a post op trans person is the same as dating a natural born person of that sex. I can understand why a straight person would not want to date a pre op trans person. They are still physically the same sex as them. Perhaps you are referring to pre op trans only? Because, frankly, you not making the distinction. Which leaves one to assume that you don't accept their gender.

[Kotze]

In the society of the future you will have to write an essay whenever you turn down someone.

The anti-disrimination committee does not find your essay compelling. Our finding is that objecting to intercourse with the plaintiff merely for the reason that she wants to insert living bees into your rectum is essentially another form of racism.

[Il Medico]

In the society of the future you will have to write an essay whenever you turn down someone.

The anti-disrimination committee does not find your essay compelling. Our finding is that objecting to intercourse with the plaintiff merely for the reason that she wants to insert living bees into your rectum is essentially another form of racism.
You're an idiot.

[Achara]

Because they are straight. Well spotted.
Dating a post op trans person is the same as dating a natural born person of that sex. Obviously it isn't, and if it were this wouldn't be a question at all.
I can understand why a straight person would not want to date a pre op trans person. They are still physically the same sex as them. It depends on how you define 'sex' as; their reproductive organs, their chromosomes, or whatever.
Perhaps you are referring to pre op trans only? Because, frankly, you not making the distinction. Perhaps I didn't make the distinction because I don't want to date either pre-op trans people or post-op trans people?
Which leaves one to assume that you don't accept their gender. I can happily accept their gender without wanting to date them.

[Queercommie Girl]

In the society of the future you will have to write an essay whenever you turn down someone.

The anti-disrimination committee does not find your essay compelling. Our finding is that objecting to intercourse with the plaintiff merely for the reason that she wants to insert living bees into your rectum is essentially another form of racism.

Jeez...why do some people take an innocent and objective question so seriously? No-one is "witch-hunting" here, it's just asking a completely objective question. You sound like there is something inherently wrong with asking about people's dating preferences with respect to trans people.

If one is not transphobic, then one's "conscience" should be clear anyway, so why the objection towards a perfectly normal question?

[Queercommie Girl]

Well spotted. Obviously it isn't, and if it were this wouldn't be a question at all. It depends on how you define 'sex' as; their reproductive organs, their chromosomes, or whatever. Perhaps I didn't make the distinction because I don't want to date either pre-op trans people or post-op trans people? I can happily accept their gender without wanting to date them.

I can understand why people might not want to date a post-op trans person because they want to have natural children. But why would something as abstract as "one's chromosomes", which has no pragmatic bearing on actual daily life, matter at all in one's dating preferences? :blink:

Hey I ain't gonna sleep with this guy...he ain't got the right chromosomes man! How can you date someone without the right chromosomes?!

[Achara]

I can understand why people might not want to date a post-op trans person because they want to have natural children. But why would something as abstract as "one's chromosomes" matter at all in one's dating preferences? :blink:I didn't say it should, merely that the definition of 'sex' is more inclusive than what genitalia one possesses.

[Quail]

I think there was a thread on this exact topic a few months ago, but possibly before Iseul joined the site.

I personally would have no problem dating either a pre or post op trans person of any gender.

[Kotze]

Sorry for the stupid joke and thanks for not negrepping me into oblivion.


Dating a post op trans person is the same as dating a natural born person of that sex. No.

You are obviously very invested emotionally and want that to be true, but for some the technology isn't quite there yet, especially transitions long past puberty are hard to pull off convincingly if the transitioning person didn't already have an unusual physique for the sex s/he was born with. They are also infertile.


You sound like there is something inherently wrong with asking about people's dating preferences with respect to trans people. I don't think there is something wrong with it, but I do think that it is unlikely that you get representative feedback if you ask the less open-minded to justify themselves.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I voted yes.

[leftace53]

Black, white, purple, trans, cis, two spirited, man, woman etc.. I really don't care, I'll probably date anyone human.

I feel we will get similar responses here as to TS' thread.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Exactly. I don't know what the purpose of these threads are if it isn't so Iseul can pick at people she thinks are transphobic. Most of us aren't, and if we are then we're not worth listening to anyway.

[Volcanicity]

If a woman is a woman and i find her attractive then yes.why do we keep having these sort of threads.We are all supposed to be on the same side.

[Thirsty Crow]

Yes, in both cases, prior to surgical operation and after the operation.

[Queercommie Girl]

Exactly. I don't know what the purpose of these threads are if it isn't so Iseul can pick at people she thinks are transphobic. Most of us aren't, and if we are then we're not worth listening to anyway.

I think I've already said I'm not "witch-hunting" here. But I'm quite new to this forum so I wouldn't know about any previous threads with the same kind of topic that have already been posted.

And in principle challenging transphobia, including transphobia within the socialist camp, isn't wrong at all anyway.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I think I've already said I'm not "witch-hunting" here. But I'm quite new to this forum so I wouldn't know about any previous threads with the same kind of topic that have already been posted.

And in principle challenging transphobia, including transphobia within the socialist camp, isn't wrong at all anyway.
It isn't wrong at all, there just seem to be many threads, with many polls, asking the same kind of questions.

I appreciate that this is an area of concern for you, but asking members of the revolutionary left countless questions about transgenderism is going to get you countless of the same answers.

[Queercommie Girl]

It isn't wrong at all, there just seem to be many threads, with many polls, asking the same kind of questions.

I appreciate that this is an area of concern for you, but asking members of the revolutionary left countless questions about transgenderism is going to get you countless of the same answers.

But a forum is by definition a "free space". No-one is forcing you to respond to any threads you don't want to respond to.

It is an area of concern because for one thing it is pretty stupid to assume that those on the left are automatically trans-friendly. I'm sure many here are, but in many other parts of the world, that is not really the case at all.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

But a forum is by definition a "free space". No-one is forcing you to respond to any threads you don't want to respond to.

It is an area of concern because for one thing it is pretty stupid to assume that those on the left are automatically trans-friendly. I'm sure many here are, but in many other parts of the world, that is not really the case at all.
There's no need to insult me. All I said was that there are quite a few of these threads and they will attract the same kind of answer, the general consensus here is that we support transgenderded people in their battle against oppression, and finding out which members of the revolutionary left would or would not date a transgendered person is besides the point with regards to this issue.

[ZeroNowhere]

If one were concerned about that, it would probably make more sense to have a thread (I believe that there already exist a few) on people's opinions on transsexuality. Anyhow, I voted 'no', because I'm asexual.

[Queercommie Girl]

There's no need to insult me. All I said was that there are quite a few of these threads and they will attract the same kind of answer, the general consensus here is that we support transgenderded people in their battle against oppression, and finding out which members of the revolutionary left would or would not date a transgendered person is besides the point with regards to this issue.

I didn't say you are stupid, I said it would be stupid to adopt the naive view that the left in general or the revolutionary left in particular would automatically support trans rights.

I mean I work with Maoists from mainland China and I can't even tell them I'm queer. In China one might literally get kicked out of a socialist party simply because one is gay or trans, no matter how much good work one has done. In parts of the non-developed world it is the norm to expect socialists to be anti-LGBT rather than pro-LGBT. In China there are more capitalists who are pro-LGBT than socialists. In the Chinese political context LGBT activism is largely associated with right-wing liberal capitalism. The most vocal support of LGBT rights in mainland China at the moment, Ms Li Yinhe, is an explicit right-winger economically and politically, and a staunch supporter of the United States.

[Volcanicity]

As far as im concerned if you get kicked out of a socialist party for being gay or transgender then it is not a socialist party.Maybe im naive,but i dont think so.

[Queercommie Girl]

As far as im concerned if you get kicked out of a socialist party for being gay or transgender then it is not a socialist party.Maybe im naive,but i dont think so.

You've never worked with socialists from mainland China, have you?

Not all socialists are like the socialists in the West.

[Volcanicity]

You've never worked with socialists from mainland China, have you?

Not all socialists are like the socialists in the West.
I can only speak from where i am,but for me what i said still stands.

[gorillafuck]

I potentially would (for a woman who is post-op, I would not want to date a pre-op woman who has male genitalia), yes. But this is so redundant, it's almost a replica of Thomas's thread.

[Queercommie Girl]

I can only speak from where i am,but for me what i said still stands.

Objectively strictly speaking one can't actually say that a socialist political party is "not genuine socialist" just because it's homophobic or transphobic, if the said party actually does act like a genuine socialist political force with respect to other kinds of matters, like working class activism.

Obviously the party would be in the wrong, but it's not sufficient to beat it down completely with only this kind of criticism.

[Queercommie Girl]

I potentially would, yes. But this is so redundant, it's almost a replica of Thomas's thread.

Why do people think the two threads are the same if they blatantly ask literally different questions?

[Volcanicity]

Im not trying to beat anything down.I see im wasting my time with this thread so i am gone.

[gorillafuck]

Why do people think the two threads are the same if they blatantly ask literally different questions?
They're different but they're still on the same topic, one is just more personal than the other.

It's just odd that there are so many threads on transexualism/transgenderism lately.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I didn't say you are stupid, I said it would be stupid to adopt the naive view that the left in general or the revolutionary left in particular would automatically support trans rights.

I mean I work with Maoists from mainland China and I can't even tell them I'm queer. In China one might literally get kicked out of a socialist party simply because one is gay or trans, no matter how much good work one has done. In parts of the non-developed world it is the norm to expect socialists to be anti-LGBT rather than pro-LGBT. In China there are more capitalists who are pro-LGBT than socialists. In the Chinese political context LGBT activism is largely associated with right-wing liberal capitalism. The most vocal support of LGBT rights in mainland China at the moment, Ms Li Yinhe, is an explicit right-winger economically and politically, and a staunch supporter of the United States.
I appreciate that but it has nothing to do with whether leftists on here would have relationships with transgendered people. As I said, the consensus on here is that we support the transgendered layers of workers, the question of hostilities in countries with backward lines of thinking is not parallel to the question of leftists here and their tendencies towars relationships with transgendered people or otherwise (which are most often in favour of transgendered workers).

I'd say that these are separate questions that you are posing, and the question of views on transgendered people in other parts of the world is a good question. Whether people on revleft would date a transgendered person or not is besides the point, most people are having difficulty understanding the relevancy of the question at hand.

[28350]

Personally, I think monosexuals are sexist.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

They're different but they're still on the same topic, one is just more personal than the other.

It's just odd that there are so many threads on transexualism/transgenderism lately.
Its not even the fact that there are so many threads on transgenderism, its just the kind of questions that they are asking.

[Raúl Duke]

I'm not certain plus it depends.

I'm much more likely to go with a post-op than a pre-op.

[Queercommie Girl]

No.

You are obviously very invested emotionally and want that to be true, but for some the technology isn't quite there yet, especially transitions long past puberty are hard to pull off convincingly if the transitioning person didn't already have an unusual physique for the sex s/he was born with. They are also infertile.


For some yes, but for many others it really is difficult to tell a post-op from a cis-woman.

Would you be able to recognise this young Chinese woman as trans-gendered?

http://www.ladyboyblog.cn/uploads/allimg/090901/21464GV4-5.jpg

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I am trans. The last relationship I was in was with another transwoman.

By the way, I voted yes because I would.

[The Red Next Door]

The reason i would date a trans, if their sugery was a total knock out and i could not recognize, if she was man or women.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Because they are straight. Dating a post op trans person is the same as dating a natural born person of that sex. I can understand why a straight person would not want to date a pre op trans person. They are still physically the same sex as them. Perhaps you are referring to pre op trans only? Because, frankly, you not making the distinction. Which leaves one to assume that you don't accept their gender.

I am pre-op. I mostly date hetero-sexual men and lesbians. The only exception is with the bisexuals that I've dated.

Also, a post-op could include someone who had a variety of procedures, including what we call a smoothie (where someone has no genitalia, just a hole to pee out of.)

You are also forgetting partial-op transwomen who have had an orchie (castration) which is sometimes an end, sometimes a means to an end.




Personally, if someone doesn't want to date me, it is their loss (not mine)
Most of those who find out, find out when I'm ready to tell them and they otherwise wouldn't know until I let them in my pants. I don't tell people right away.

An exception:
I recently when out with a guy who didn't know and in a group one person read me and she said "You're not a real woman" and outed me to everyone (including the guy) and I explained to the guy. He hadn't even the slightest thought until that girl loudly said that. But when he and I talked about it, he didn't mind. He said that I'm prettier and look like more of a woman than she did.

[Invader Zim]

It entirely depends on a myriad of factors ranging from the shallow (am I attracted to them?), to issues of personality compatability. I wouldn't rule it either in or out.

but a more pertinant question is would they go out with me, I've managed to fuck up two relationships in as many months and am suspect that I may be percieved as damaged goods at the moment. Probably a fair assessment.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

It entirely depends on a myriad of factors ranging from the shallow (am I attracted to them?), to issues of personality compatability. I wouldn't rule it either in or out.

but a more pertinant question is would they go out with me, I've managed to fuck up two relationships in as many months and am suspect that I may be percieved as damaged goods at the moment. Probably a fair assessment.

I'm damaged goods too so don't feel bad.

[Kotze]

Would you be able to recognise this young Chinese woman as trans-gendered? Just going by that photo, no. Can you tell me what her name is, for science? :tongue_smilie:

That's a very (http://www.ladyboyblog.cn/uploads/allimg/090831/00324245W-0.jpg) interesting (http://www.ladyboyblog.cn/uploads/allimg/100305/1013052RR-46.jpg) site (http://www.ladyboyblog.cn/uploads/allimg/100305/1013051KW-34.jpg), btw.

[Jazzhands]

not really. It's just not attractive to me. there's nothing wrong with that but it's not my cup of tea.

also, haven't there been three or four threads on this in the past day or two?

[Queercommie Girl]

not really. It's just not attractive to me. there's nothing wrong with that but it's not my cup of tea.

also, haven't there been three or four threads on this in the past day or two?

Can I ask what is the reason for your choice?

[Jazzhands]

Can I ask what is the reason for your choice?

I just am not drawn to transgendered people in the same way as women. There's no other reason.

[Dr Mindbender]

I just am not drawn to transgendered people in the same way as women. There's no other reason.

like i said in the parallel thread, you are assuming the false premise that transwomen and ciswomen are always distinguishable.

You'll find that is not the case.

[Hiratsuka]

If a trans-woman appears attractive to me, then yes. If she doesn't, or if she appears too masculine (which even some cis-females do) for my tastes, no.

I would be hesitant about entering a long-term relationship with a trans-woman just because I want my own children.

[Pirate Utopian]

I would but I'm bisexual.

[Dr Mindbender]

I would be hesitant about entering a long-term relationship with a trans-woman just because I want my own children.
What about sterile cis-women?

Would you enter a short term sexual relationship with a sterile cis-woman? How do you go about checking their fertility? Why then for that reason would you reject a transwoman?

[Invader Zim]

I'm damaged goods too so don't feel bad.

Nice sentiments, but I kinda diserve it.

[Il Medico]

Well spotted. I thought so.

Obviously it isn't, and if it were this wouldn't be a question at all. Yeah, it is. Physically, there is no one thing that you could rule out all transgenders for, so it depends on how you view them mentally. You either don't like the 'ickyness factor of them having the same genitalia as you in the past, consider them women/men, but not as good a 'real' women/men, or you don't consider them women/men at all. All of which are forms of transphobia.
It depends on how you define 'sex' as; their reproductive organs, their chromosomes, or whatever. The chromosome argument, really?
Perhaps I didn't make the distinction because I don't want to date either pre-op trans people or post-op trans people? I can happily accept their gender without wanting to date them.
So you can completely rule out dating a diverse group of the sex (sexes?) that you are attracted to, without denying their gender or considering them inferior to natural born people of that sex, interesting. :rolleyes:

[Hiratsuka]

What about sterile cis-women?

Would you enter a short term sexual relationship with a sterile cis-woman? How do you go about checking their fertility? Why then for that reason would you reject a transwoman?

If I found out prior to falling in love that a cis-woman was sterile, yes, I would be hesitant to continue. If I found out after I had fallen in love, I wouldn't end the relationship either way. I would have a fling with any sterile woman. I'm not turned off by the idea of having a sexual relationship with a trans-op woman. For all I know it's already happened.

At the point where I love someone it's very likely we've already talked about the possibility of having kids. I would not appreciate a woman who knows she's sterile lying to me.

[Il Medico]

You are obviously very invested emotionally Not particularly. I am no more invested in this than any other manifestation of social construct based discrimination. Though you could say that I take special interest in issues that involve my fellow queers.
and want that to be true, There is no wanting involved.
but for some the technology isn't quite there yet, especially transitions long past puberty are hard to pull off convincingly if the transitioning person didn't already have an unusual physique for the sex s/he was born with. True, not all ops are perfect. But you act like cis-men/women have some uniform physique that most trans people can not aspire to. Cis-men/women are very diverse in this regard, as are trans.
They are also infertile.
. Yeah, so is me mum, what of it?

[Jazzhands]

like i said in the parallel thread, you are assuming the false premise that transwomen and ciswomen are always distinguishable.

You'll find that is not the case.

well, I don't know too much about transgenderism besides the limited amount of (biased) attention the mainstream media gives them. So educate me, please.

[Achara]

You either don't like the 'ickyness factor of them having the same genitalia as you in the past Its nothing to do with that - but thanks for assuming I'm straight. I am simply not attracted to them.
consider them women/men, but not as good a 'real' women/men Why the hell would I be concerned that they are classified as a 'real' woman or man, when I, as a communist, want to abolish those labels altogether?
or you don't consider them women/men at all Like I said, I can happily consider them a woman or man, or whatever they wish, but that has absolutely no bearing on whether I would like to date them.
All of which are forms of transphobia. Prove how me not being attracted to trans people is a form of transphobia.
The chromosome argument, really? You clearly missed the point and therefore are unable to respond to it. You stated that a post-op trans person had changed their sex because they had changed their genitals, I replied that it depends on how you define sex; some people define it as reproductive organs, some systems look at the genome that the individual inherits... and so on. So yes, even a post-op trans MtF may still be viewed with the sex of a male, but with the gender of a female.
So you can completely rule out dating a diverse group of the sex (sexes?) that you are attracted to, without denying their gender or considering them inferior to natural born people of that sex, interesting. What's interesting is that you attribute my lack of attraction to trans people as a form of transphobia. I'm also unattracted to Asian men, are you going to accuse me of considering them inferior? :rolleyes:

[mollymae]

As a heterosexual female, I'd have absolutely no problem dating a post-op trans man. Pre-op... probably not. I'm sure I could fall in love with a pre-op trans man, but bottom line, I cannot be sexually attracted to any person with a vagina.

[Kotze]

I am no more invested in this than any other manifestation of social construct based discrimination. It is only partially a social construct.
They are also infertile.
Yeah, so is me mum, what of it? This is an example of where science is right now. It is a deal breaker for some.

If you want to win people over when it comes to abolishing laws that discriminate against LGBT people or when it comes to paying for transitioning I suggest that you change your style of arguing. But if telling people how they should handle their private affairs makes you feel good please go on with your lifestylist crusade.

[synthesis]

Is there a difference between a "transgender" and a "transsexual"? Or is the latter considered offensive?

[Queercommie Girl]

Why the hell would I be concerned that they are classified as a 'real' woman or man, when I, as a communist, want to abolish those labels altogether?

Being a communist does not necessarily imply that one is looking forward to a "genderless" society. There are plenty of communists who do not believe in a "genderless" society, nor is there any necessary logical link between the two, or anything in the original texts of communism suggesting that a communist society must necessarily be a "genderless" society. The only necessary implication of communism is that a communist society should be a society where the genders are treated equal, which is not the same as being "genderless".

I don't oppose the possibility of a "genderless" society but I wonder if we are talking about the same thing, because for me it is pointless to have a so-called "genderless" society in the abstract sense, if a society is truly genderless then it must be explicitly genderless in everyday life. It would include features such as:

1) All forms of clothing (or most forms of clothing) be made explicitly unisex;

2) All genderal labels (e.g. personal titles like Ms, Mrs, Miss, Mr) be dropped from regular legal and institutional use and be replaced by gender-neutral titles such as "Mx";

3) No more discrimination based on whatever mannerisms or conversational styles one happens to employ in everyday life - so that for instance if a "man" decides to adopt explicitly "feminine" mannerisms (or what people would consider to be "feminine" in the pre-genderless past) all the time, he will not be prejudiced against for that;

4) When transhumanist technologies become available in the future to abolish sex differences at the biological and genetic level - so that e.g. every human individual can potentially carry a child to term, or external wombs are used, they are employed without any kind of conservative resistance based on perceived "binary gender norms".

Yes, in principle I'm certainly not against a truly genderless society, but if a society is to be genderless, it needs to be so in the most literal way as described here, not just an empty "politically correct" label. And as long as this kind of literal post-genderist society does not arrive, the phenomenon of transgenderism will exist forever, because there would always be individuals who dislike the binary gender norms imposed upon them by biology and society.

[RedAnarchist]

Is there a difference between a "transgender" and a "transsexual"? Or is the latter considered offensive?

A transsexual is someone whose feels that they were born in the wrong body, and often (not all transsexuals wish to transition) take a long journey of pain, stress, anger and a multitude of other emotions and situations and surgeries to change their body to match the sex they know they are within. They tend to identify strongly with the gender identity of their internal sex, although there are masculine transwomen and feminine transmen.

A transgender person is someone whose gender identity does not match the gender assigned to their biological sex. They may identify with the gender of another sex, or the gender identities of both sexes (Intersexed people tend to choose a gender identity of one of the sexes), or have a gender identity that is neither. The transgender group is wider than the transsexual group and includes people such as crossdressers, androgynes (people whose gender identity is in between), bigenders (people with both gender identities) and neutrois people (agendered people).

[Queercommie Girl]

Is there a difference between a "transgender" and a "transsexual"? Or is the latter considered offensive?

No, both are neutral terms.

[Queercommie Girl]

A transsexual is someone whose feels that they were born in the wrong body, and often (not all transsexuals wish to transition) take a long journey of pain, stress, anger and a multitude of other emotions and situations and surgeries to change their body to match the sex they know they are within. They tend to identify strongly with the gender identity of their internal sex, although there are masculine transwomen and feminine transmen.

A transgender person is someone whose gender identity does not match the gender assigned to their biological sex. They may identify with the gender of another sex, or the gender identities of both sexes (Intersexed people tend to choose a gender identity of one of the sexes), or have a gender identity that is neither. The transgender group is wider than the transsexual group and includes people such as crossdressers, androgynes (people whose gender identity is in between), bigenders (people with both gender identities) and neutrois people (agendered people).

Not all cross-dressers are genuinely transgendered. Transgenderism only comes into it if the person persistently cross-dresses, and usually accompanied by certain mannerisms of the gender which the clothing style represents, and only just a kind of fetish-like autosexual stimulation. In fact, nowadays the gender line in clothing is no longer some kind of "sacred barrier" that no-one dares to cross, there are many examples of completely hetero-normative people who "gender-bend" and "cross-dress" for fun occasionally, but they are not strictly speaking a part of the transgender community. There are also gay people who dress in drag sometimes but do not subjectively consider themselves to be transgendered. I don't think it is right to impose the label "transgender" onto people who do not subjectively subscribe to it, no matter what the objective situation is.

Personally, I don't have a high opinion of heterosexual male cross-dressers who cross-dress just for a kind of fetish-like sexual gratification and who harass women in lesbian toilets. People like that give trans people, particularly MtF trans, a bad name, and is one reason why MtF trans people are often banned from using female toilets.

[Queercommie Girl]

If you want to win people over when it comes to abolishing laws that discriminate against LGBT people or when it comes to paying for transitioning I suggest that you change your style of arguing. But if telling people how they should handle their private affairs makes you feel good please go on with your lifestylist crusade.

I may be mistaken, but you are sounding like as if you are dismissing the importance of the transgender movement because you think it is a "lifestylist crusade".

This is a mistake, because frankly to some extent lifestyle is important. Humans do not exist in an abstract vacuum of political concepts, ultimately, the potency of all political movements is precisely in the fact that they directly impacts people's life in some way, and not just an empty "politically correct" slogan, whether it be raised wages for workers so they have more to spend or free medical care for trans people so they can transition more easily.

[Il Medico]

Its nothing to do with that - but thanks for assuming I'm straight. Well, you're female, and you have only talked about guys, so somewhat safe assumption, no? And if you are bi, then you are really limiting the physical reason not to potentially date a trans person.

I am simply not attracted to them. Why the hell would I be concerned that they are classified as a 'real' woman or man, when I, as a communist, want to abolish those labels altogether? Like I said, I can happily consider them a woman or man, or whatever they wish, but that has absolutely no bearing on whether I would like to date them. Prove how me not being attracted to trans people is a form of transphobia. Are you not attracted to/ open to dating any cis-men/women as well?


You clearly missed the point and therefore are unable to respond to it. You stated that a post-op trans person had changed their sex because they had changed their genitals, I replied that it depends on how you define sex; some people define it as reproductive organs, some systems look at the genome that the individual inherits... and so on. So yes, even a post-op trans MtF may still be viewed with the sex of a male, but with the gender of a female. No, I didn't miss your point. You seem to have missed mine though, which is that this argument you are resorting to is pathetic. Yes, there are other ways to define sex, but they really don't matter much in terms of attraction. When a straight man is hitting on a girl in a bar, or thinking about asking her out, the first thing he is going to consider isn't if her genome is right. Nor is he likely to care whether or not the woman's reproductive organs are in proper working order. (Which I find that you bring up reproductive organs interesting, cause if having properly working reproductive organs is the measure of what is a man/woman, then a lot of cis-men/women aren't men/women anymore.) What he would likely care about is what is between the person's legs.


What's interesting is that you attribute my lack of attraction to trans people as a form of transphobia. I'm also unattracted to Asian men, are you going to accuse me of considering them inferior? :rolleyes:
Race and transgenderism in not analogous in this respect. Race is socially constructed ideas about a group of people based on common physical features. If you don't find physical features common to Asians attractive, then you very well can say you not attracted to them. But trans people do not share common physical features. There are black, white, Asian, and Hispanic transgenders. There are tall, short, fat, skinny, masculine looking, feminine looking transgenders. There are ones with blond hair, or black hair, or red hair. All sorts, they are as diverse as cis-people.

The fact is, there is no one physical reason to not be attracted to/willing to date all trans people. You are drawing your feelings of not being attracted to them from the fact that they are trans. You treat them differently than natural born people of the same sex. And you can deny it all you want, but if you actually considered them to be men/women, then you wouldn't make that distinction.

[meow]

i make policy only date trans people. make up for people who never date trans people.

first question i ask is: "are you trans person". i then want to check there chromzones and genitalia to make sure they not lie. then if i am attracted to them i date them.

ooh i also hate people who are not sterile. who wants kids anyway? pregnancy the most popular sex transmitted desiese.

---

for all those who say "no" i bet you could and would not notice. ooh scary. that nasty person did icky thing without you know. and it was only icky cause of some preconcieved idea of what is icky.

it is like many people have this idea of who is attractive. must be tall. must be strong. must be handsome. must have light color hair. must be funny and make me laugh and take long walk on beach.

yet they fall for someone who is not culturally handsome. has dark curly hair. dont like beach but love mountains. is not strong but is funny and cute.

you people have this idea "no trans people are not right for me" yet you have no idea until you meet the one you fall for.

[Il Medico]

It is only partially a social construct. Gender is only partially a social construct? This is news to me.

This is an example of where science is right now. A good place I would say, and it is only getting better.
It is a deal breaker for some. You do realize that we are talking about dates here, right? I don't know about you, but conversations with potential dates of mine don't tend to go like this: "Hey, would you like to go to a movie with me, maybe dinner? (sure.) Great! But one thing first, before we do this, are you able to birth children? You know, in case this date goes well."


If you want to win people over when it comes to abolishing laws that discriminate against LGBT people or when it comes to paying for transitioning I suggest that you change your style of arguing. But if telling people how they should handle their private affairs makes you feel good please go on with your lifestylist crusade.Hey, I really don't care who you date, I really don't. What I do care about is when people hold prejudiced views. And if the reason you won't date someone is based on a prejudiced view, then you can bet you bottom dollar that I am going to challenge that prejudiced view. If you don't like it, tough. And if it makes me a 'lifestylist crusader' then so be it.

[Queercommie Girl]

Im not trying to beat anything down.I see im wasting my time with this thread so i am gone.

Sorry if I sounded like an annoying ***** here. My point is simply that one cannot completely write-off a particular socialist movement or organisation/party just because it is homophobic and transphobic and does not support LGBT rights.

Of course, being queer myself I see their stance in this case as completely wrong, but objectively they might still do a lot of good work in other areas, like working class activism in general.

If you think a socialist party cannot be socialist at all unless it is pro-LGBT, does this mean you completely write off people like Che Guvera, because Che wasn't pro-LGBT? As for me, even though he was not pro-LGBT, I still find him admirable in other ways.

[Volcanicity]

Sorry if I sounded like an annoying ***** here. My point is simply that one cannot completely write-off a particular socialist movement or organisation/party just because it is homophobic and transphobic and does not support LGBT rights.

Of course, being queer myself I see their stance in this case as completely wrong, but objectively they might still do a lot of good work in other areas, like working class activism in general.

If you think a socialist party cannot be socialist at all unless it is pro-LGBT, does this mean you completely write off people like Che Guvera, because Che wasn't pro-LGBT? As for me, even though he was not pro-LGBT, I still find him admirable in other ways.
The point i was trying to make,is if a socialist party throws people out for being LGBT then surely its going against their principles.How can a party say that they are trying to free people from oppression and discrimination when they are doing the opposite.To say im writing someone off like Che Guevara who i hugely admire is nonesense.

[Queercommie Girl]

The point i was trying to make,is if a socialist party throws people out for being LGBT then surely its going against their principles.How can a party say that they are trying to free people from oppression and discrimination when they are doing the opposite.To say im writing someone off like Che Guevara who i hugely admire is nonesense.

But you do know that Che was homophobic right? So by your own logic Che can't be a true socialist either.

[Volcanicity]

But you do know that Che was homophobic right? So by your own logic Che can't be a true socialist either.
Im talking purely about socialist parties not individual people,theres a difference.

[Queercommie Girl]

Im talking purely about socialist parties not individual people,theres a difference.

Not really in this case. I highly doubt in Che's day his party allowed LGBT people free admission and treated them equally. Does this mean the political party that Che was a part of which initiated the Cuban revolution was not a socialist organisation?

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Sorry if I sounded like an annoying ***** here. My point is simply that one cannot completely write-off a particular socialist movement or organisation/party just because it is homophobic and transphobic and does not support LGBT rights.

Of course, being queer myself I see their stance in this case as completely wrong, but objectively they might still do a lot of good work in other areas, like working class activism in general.

If you think a socialist party cannot be socialist at all unless it is pro-LGBT, does this mean you completely write off people like Che Guvera, because Che wasn't pro-LGBT? As for me, even though he was not pro-LGBT, I still find him admirable in other ways.
In current times, in which the ruling class are more tolerant of sexual and gender issues (as opposed to making them criminal), a revolutionary party cannot exclude members of the LGBT community. In most of the west, we live in different times than Che Guevara did. It is almost unthinkable for a revolutionary party in Britain to adopt an anti-LGBT stance, as the LGBT community is an active movement, where-as in Cuba at that time, it wasn't.

Real revolutionary politics are class politics and many LGBT are members of the class that we aim to liberate. I'm pretty sure that if Che Guevara was alive now, in my conditions, he would understand this (his homophobia was a result of his objective conditions, it was not an inherent nasty streak that he was born with).

[Volcanicity]

Not really in this case. I highly doubt in Che's day his party allowed LGBT people free admission and treated them equally. Does this mean the political party that Che was a part of which initiated the Cuban revolution was not a socialist organisation?
Why are you going on about the past for.Todays world has moved on a lot since Che Guevaras day.There is nothing more i can say on this ive made my point,and i think its my time to move on.

[Devrim]

Hey, I really don't care who you date, I really don't. What I do care about is when people hold prejudiced views. And if the reason you won't date someone is based on a prejudiced view, then you can bet you bottom dollar that I am going to challenge that prejudiced view. If you don't like it, tough. And if it makes me a 'lifestylist crusader' then so be it.


2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

It is not prejudiced to think that you probably wouldn't date* somebody. I don't think that I would date blondes, red-heads, or women with really big breasts. Do you think I am prejudiced against these people? It is just that generally they are things that I find sexually unattractive. I don't make any judgements about them of have 'an irrational attitude of hostility'. I even have some blond friends**.

Of course, one might meet a blond with big breasts and totally fall for her, as one might meet a transsexual and totally fall for them, which makes it a pretty absurd question in the first place, "Would you be willing to date a non-defined person who you have never met?" Of course not.

Devrim

*'Date' is such a strange American concept anyway.
**Obviously not many.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

It is not prejudiced to think that you probably wouldn't date* somebody. I don't think that I would date blondes, red-heads, or women with really big breasts. Do you think I am prejudiced against these people? It is just that generally they are things that I find sexually unattractive. I don't make any judgements about them of have 'an irrational attitude of hostility'. I even have some blond friends**.
I've heard similar things said before...
"I'm not racist, I have black friends"
I don't really think you meant it like that, but it comes off as tokenizing.


Of course, one might meet a blond with big breasts and totally fall for her, as one might meet a transsexual and totally fall for them, which makes it a pretty absurd question in the first place, "Would you be willing to date a non-defined person who you have never met?" Of course not.
Having blanket rules like "I would never date a Mexican/blonde/brunette/asian/russian/transsexual/intersexed person/quadropalegic swiss man/whatever random boxes of labels anyone can think of...
It is idiotic unless you know every person you are calling the label of.


Devrim
Thanks for reminding me of your username, Devrim. :)


*'Date' is such a strange American concept anyway.
If only you knew the old American slang meaning of the word...:rolleyes::laugh:


**Obviously not many.
Well one only needs so many tokens. :-p

[Die Rote Fahne]

No.

[Kotze]

If you want to win people over when it comes to abolishing laws that discriminate against LGBT people or when it comes to paying for transitioning I suggest that you change your style of arguing. But if telling people how they should handle their private affairs makes you feel good please go on with your lifestylist crusade.
I may be mistaken, but you are sounding like as if you are dismissing the importance of the transgender movement because you think it is a "lifestylist crusade".You are mistaken.
frankly to some extent lifestyle is important.Gawd.
Gender is only partially a social construct?Yes.
I don't know about youIndeed.
And if the reason you won't date someone is based on a prejudiced view blahblahblah I am going to challenge that blah. And if it makes me a 'lifestylist crusader' then so be it. You know, I actually made an indication regarding the question in this thread that was as subtle as a Tex Avery cartoon but don't let that ruin your argument.

Calling a strategy lifestylist means that the strategy doesn't take into account that humans can achieve much more in groups than by acting as uncoordinated individuals. In this context it means that working in an LGBT lobby group can have a pivotal effect, a change in regulations regarding funding transitions that would unleash more orgasms than a mere individual ever could. What you two are doing in this thread is like making the decision as an individual to go vegetarian to save the planet. No, I have to correct myself, what you do is actually less than that. I can see a person going vegetarian having a tinsy-tiny effect, nothing to what a push for better regulations can do, but still. What exactly are you expecting, that some guy reading your complaints about being prejudiced will change his mind about having sex with a trans person?

You are doing something in this thread that makes people who need no persuasion pat you on the back, converts nobody to the cause, and manages to piss off at least one fellow traveller.

[Ol' Dirty]

Meh. :sleep: Though it may seem shallow, I wouldn't really be comfortable in that situation. I wouldn't mind being their friend, but I honestly wouldn't want an intimate relationship with a transperson. Is that bad? I don't really know. Just my visceral reaction.

Please don't chew me out for this. I'm trying to be honest.

[Devrim]

I've heard similar things said before...
"I'm not racist, I have black friends"
I don't really think you meant it like that, but it comes off as tokenizing./QUOTE]

Er...I was sort of playing on that. It was supposed to be a joke. That was a big fail then.

[QUOTE=Esperanza Xochitl;1834663]Having blanket rules like "I would never date a Mexican/blonde/brunette/asian/russian/transsexual/intersexed person/quadropalegic swiss man/whatever random boxes of labels anyone can think of...
It is idiotic unless you know every person you are calling the label of.

Which is sort of what I said:


I don't think that I would date blondes, red-heads, or women with really big breasts...
Of course, one might meet a blond with big breasts and totally fall for her,

I agree with your point. Nobody has those sort of blanket rules, which is what makes it such an absurd question.

What I said was:


It is not prejudiced to think that you probably wouldn't date* somebody. I don't think that I would date blondes, red-heads, or women with really big breasts.


Thanks for reminding me of your username, Devrim. :)

I don't want you to forget me.


If only you knew the old American slang meaning of the word...:rolleyes::laugh:

Which is?

Devrim

[Queercommie Girl]

Gawd.


"Gawd" what? English is my 2nd language so don't throw slang terms at me. I don't get them.

I meant that "lifestylism" is important not in the sense of bourgeois "consumerist lifestylism", but simply the general daily livelihood of every person. Ultimately to make a difference with respect to this is the holy grail of every political movement, tendency and programme.



Calling a strategy lifestylist means that the strategy doesn't take into account that humans can achieve much more in groups than by acting as uncoordinated individuals. In this context it means that working in an LGBT lobby group can have a pivotal effect, a change in regulations regarding funding transitions that would unleash more orgasms than a mere individual ever could. What you two are doing in this thread is like making the decision as an individual to go vegetarian to save the planet. No, I have to correct myself, what you do is actually less than that. I can see a person going vegetarian having a tinsy-tiny effect, nothing to what a push for better regulations can do, but still. What exactly are you expecting, that some guy reading your complaints about being prejudiced will change his mind about having sex with a trans person?

You are doing something in this thread that makes people who need no persuasion pat you on the back, converts nobody to the cause, and manages to piss off at least one fellow traveller.
You are assuming too much. Firstly, you assume that I'm always in the same "camp" as Doctor, which isn't necessarily true. Secondly, your assumption about the purpose of this thread is mistaken. I posted this thread as a neutral question to gather information and perhaps stimulate discussion on this matter, nothing more. I'm not here to "convert" anyone. In fact, I don't even think it is necessarily a form of discrimination if someone decides to not date a trans person, I think it would depend on the specific circumstances and the exact reasons for the person's decision. And I am involved in collective LGBT activism anyway.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Er...I was sort of playing on that. It was supposed to be a joke. That was a big fail then.

No I was playing along. My fail...
Sowwiez!





I agree with your point. Nobody has those sort of blanket rules, which is what makes it such an absurd question.

Good to see we agree.







I don't want you to forget me.
How could I?



Which is?

It can be slang for a blow job.

[RedAnarchist]

"Gawd" what? English is my 2nd language so don't throw slang terms at me. I don't get them.

Gawd is just an exaggerated pronunciation of God.

[leftace53]

For those who have said they are not willing to date a transperson, at what point do you assume you will find out they are trans?

[Jazzhands]

For those who have said they are not willing to date a transperson, at what point do you assume you will find out they are trans?

when it becomes an issue. My answer isn't 100% absolute because, as has been stated, blanket rules like that are impulsive and rather stupid.

[Queercommie Girl]

In current times, in which the ruling class are more tolerant of sexual and gender issues (as opposed to making them criminal), a revolutionary party cannot exclude members of the LGBT community. In most of the west, we live in different times than Che Guevara did. It is almost unthinkable for a revolutionary party in Britain to adopt an anti-LGBT stance, as the LGBT community is an active movement, where-as in Cuba at that time, it wasn't.

Real revolutionary politics are class politics and many LGBT are members of the class that we aim to liberate. I'm pretty sure that if Che Guevara was alive now, in my conditions, he would understand this (his homophobia was a result of his objective conditions, it was not an inherent nasty streak that he was born with).

The MCPC in mainland China I work with now does not accept LGBT issues, which is why I haven't told my contact in the MCPC that I'm queer. However, I'm not rejecting the MCPC as a whole just because it is not pro-queer. This is one practical implication of what I said in this thread. So you see it's not just all "ancient history" at all.

[Queercommie Girl]

Why are you going on about the past for.Todays world has moved on a lot since Che Guevaras day.There is nothing more i can say on this ive made my point,and i think its my time to move on.

The MCPC in mainland China I work with now does not accept LGBT issues, which is why I haven't told my contact in the MCPC that I'm queer. However, I'm not rejecting the MCPC as a whole just because it is not pro-queer. This is one practical implication of what I said in this thread. So you see it's not just all "ancient history" at all.

[777]

No. Because unless they were born hermaphrodites then you are either a man or a woman, the extent to which you are more masculine or feminine is irrelevant. In my opinion, the whole trans-gender thing is a product of people being pigeon-holed into traditional sexist roles.

For me, I see transgendered people as being fake. Sorry if that seems wrong. I don't hate them or anything, but I just don't get their whole trip.

Also, I don't understand why trans-genders are lumped in with all non-heterosexual people. Can anyone enlighten me?

[Queercommie Girl]

No. Because unless they were born hermaphrodites then you are either a man or a woman, the extent to which you are more masculine or feminine is irrelevant. In my opinion, the whole trans-gender thing is a product of people being pigeon-holed into traditional sexist roles.


You are ignoring a lot of things. Firstly you are ignoring that there is indeed some biological basis for transgenderism for at least some of the cases, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#Transgender_people_and_science

Some recent findings have provided clues and possibly answers as to how or why some or most cases of transsexuality occur. In 1997, J.N. Zhou, M.A. Hofman, L.J. Gooren and D.F. Swaab conducted tests on the brains of transgender individuals. Their tests showed that the volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a brain area that is essential for sexual behaviour, is larger in men than in women. A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation. Their study was the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones.[/URL] Perhaps confirming why this brain difference occurs, in 2008 at Prince Henry's Institute of Medical Research in Melbourne, biological studies were performed to attempt to find a link between genes and transsexuality. Their study shows male to female transsexuals are more likely than non-transsexual males to have a longer version of a receptor gene for the sex hormone androgen or testosterone. The research suggests reduced androgen and androgen signaling contributes to the female gender identity of male to female transsexuals. They say that it is possible that a decrease in testosterone levels in the brain during development might result in incomplete masculinization of the brain in male to female transsexuals, resulting in a more feminized brain and a female gender identity.

Unless you can refute this scientific evidence at the scientific level, your opinion has no real justification.

Secondly, you are ignoring the fact that biological sex and social gender aren't exactly the same kind of thing. They are related but they are not identical.

Answer yourself this question: why can't a biological male assume a female social role if he wishes to? (or vice versa) What is the reason that this is wrong?

Thirdly, it is a matter of bodily autonomy. If someone wishes to change his/her "body sex", why does there need to be any kind of justification, scientific, social or otherwise? Does he/she not have the fundamental right to do so? Without even getting into any kind of argument about "underlying biological factors" etc, why can't a man decide to assume a female social role in society in general or vice versa? Why is such a thing considered to be so wrong by some people?

As for trans people being fixed in "traditional gender roles", your view here is also mistaken.

Firstly, many trans-women do not act "stereotypically feminine", and many trans-men do not act "stereotypically masculine". There are many trans-women who are tomboyish, and many trans-men who are feminine.

Secondly, there are a significant minority of trans people who consider themselves Genderqueer, i.e. neither male nor female or both in the genderal sense, or partially genderqueer.

Thirdly, anyone who wishes to challenge binary gender norms should direct their energy at the cis-gendered community, not at the trans community, since actually the trans community has done more to break down gender role barriers than most other people, rather than reinforcing them.

Fourthly, gender roles won't disappear over night. Certainly aspects of gender roles might never disappear unless transhumanism is brought into the equation because they are based on underlying biological differences. Transgenderism is a practical issue, not an abstract issue, it is about what people are doing right now, under the present-day conditions of significant gender differentiation. Talking about what might become the case in 100 years time after socialism spreads across the globe is irrelevant to the issues at hand.



For me, I see transgendered people as being fake. Sorry if that seems wrong. I don't hate them or anything, but I just don't get their whole trip.


You are just being ignorant. Many transgendered people are transgendered because their "brain sex" (not an idealistic concept by any means, but the actual structures of their brain) is different from their "body sex". For self-conscious sentient life-forms like humans, "brain sex" is obviously the primarily factor, not "body sex". Hence the point of transgenderism is to change the body sex so that it fits in with the brain sex of the person.



Also, I don't understand why trans-genders are lumped in with all non-heterosexual people. Can anyone enlighten me?


Because the term LGBT/Queer covers anyone who subscribes to a non-standard form of sexuality and gender identity, not just sexuality. And many trans people are non-heterosexual as well.

If you are a Marxist, read this book:

http://resolutereader.blogspot.com/2010/07/hannah-dee-red-in-rainbow-sexuality.html (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#cite_note-76)

and this article:

[url]http://www.isj.org.uk/index.php4?id=310

[777]

I just think you're born the way you are. It's a shame people can't be happy with themselves as they are and have to go through such excessive means to change themselves.

Thanks for enlightening me about the issues surrounding the whole thing. I'll take a look at the book and article. Thanks.

[meow]

777 i guess you are teenager?

socialists should support the idea of people being whatever they want. we dont oppose people having tattoos. we dont think that is fake.

we should be open minded. we should not condemn people who wish to change themselves.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

I voted unsure, because I want to date a person because of their personality rather than on their physical being.

[gorillafuck]

I voted unsure, because I want to date a person because of their personality rather than on their physical being.
Personality matters a lot but I to be honest think that people who say that they don't care at all about physical appearance are lying to themselves (unless they are asexual).

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

Personality matters a lot but I to be honest think that people who say that they don't care at all about physical appearance are lying to themselves (unless they are asexual).


You have a point... but I know for myself that once I know a person, their appearences don't matter that much. But looks have caused me to avoid people and to get to know other people faster than normal. :p

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I just think you're born the way you are. It's a shame people can't be happy with themselves as they are and have to go through such excessive means to change themselves.

It is not myself that I'm not happy with. It's my body.

[Adi Shankara]

Transsexuals can't have children, so I voted "no". also, I like the idea of being with someone who grew up a girl who can share that entire experience with me, so I think I'd have a problem dating a transsexual.


It is not myself that I'm not happy with. It's my body.

Isn't that dualism though?

[leftace53]

Isn't that dualism though?
I was thinking the same thing for a while now, but I believe Iseul posted some links about the biological aspects of transgenderism. If brain sex and body sex are different, I don't see that as assuming dualism, just two aspects of a body are different.


777 i guess you are teenager?


Why would this assumption come up?

PS. 300 post!

[meow]

Transsexuals can't have children, so I voted "no". also, I like the idea of being with someone who grew up a girl who can share that entire experience with me, so I think I'd have a problem dating a transsexual.
is the first question you ask "are you fertile"? do you say not to all people who can not or do not want children?

strange...


Why would this assumption come up?
because often younger people have yet to rid there mind of reactionary ideas. i know many people who when younger were racist or sexist (for example). once older they say "oh those ideas are wrong". they only think this ideas before becuase of growing up and who they lived with.
once exposed to good/left ideas they change.

if 777 is teenager it would explain why they think that way. (if not i would think that they are still new to left ideas)

[Il Medico]

is the first question you ask "are you fertile"? do you say not to all people who can not or do not want children?

strange...
It's Thomas Sankara.

(if not i would think that they are still new to left ideas)
Well, he is a former nazi, so....

[777]

777 i guess you are teenager?

socialists should support the idea of people being whatever they want. we dont oppose people having tattoos. we dont think that is fake.

we should be open minded. we should not condemn people who wish to change themselves.

I'm 22.

I'm not condemning anyone or anything, but I just don't get the whole thing. I don't have to like it to accept or tolerate it. I'm not against the whole concept of transgenders, I simply can't comprehend it, and to be honest I don't want to. But hey, "do what thou will" and all - I ain't gonna stop ya ;)

Sure I'm kinda new to left-ideals, but surely ideology should not really influence aesthetic preferences, should it? :confused:

[Thirsty Crow]

I'm 22.

Sure I'm kinda new to left-ideals, but surely ideology should not really influence aesthetic preferences, should it? :confused:
As long as you don't condemn "different" people or actively engage in discrimination . aesthetic preferences or personal preferences are completely OK.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Transsexuals can't have children, so I voted "no". also, I like the idea of being with someone who grew up a girl who can share that entire experience with me, so I think I'd have a problem dating a transsexual.
Because women are nothing more than baby making machines who all have the same homogenous experiences, right?
:rolleyes:



Isn't that dualism though?
I'm happy with the person I am. The body I was born into does not represent that person. You can put what ever idiotic term you want to that. It is really the meaning that matters.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

No. Because unless they were born hermaphrodites then you are either a man or a woman, the extent to which you are more masculine or feminine is irrelevant. In my opinion, the whole trans-gender thing is a product of people being pigeon-holed into traditional sexist roles.
First off, the term is intersexed, not "hermaphrodite"
Second off, I'm not a product of anyone being pigeon-holed into anything.


For me, I see transgendered people as being fake. Sorry if that seems wrong. I don't hate them or anything, but I just don't get their whole trip.
I don't get your whole trip. I'm not faking it. I was quite authentically born into a life where every time I saw my body in the mirror I was disgusted. I always hated the body I was born into. I was practicing tucking in the shower by the time I was in second grade. I had often been hitting and clawing and self-inflicting violence on the male part between my legs my entire life, as I hated it's existence inherently.


Also, I don't understand why trans-genders are lumped in with all non-heterosexual people. Can anyone enlighten me?
Well some transwomen are lesbian, but it is because we (while in a different way) don't fit the norms.

[777]

First off, it's hermaphrodite in my language. Me no speak americano. [in my country and throughout history a person, animal or plant born with both sexual organs is referred to as a hermaphrodite. I do not know why this would be offensive, it is a widely accepted term.]

Secondly, I don't like the fact that I'm skinny and not muscly.... I'm really a big tough guy on the inside. [My testosterone levels betray my physical stature, and working out still leaves me small.] Will getting silicone muscle implants suddenly make me a big strong man?

I don't like how my knees are very knobbly.... should I cut them off?

I had a friend who was anorexic, he just wanted to be really really thin, but instead of letting himself waste to death we all helped him get over it, now he is a healthy weight. [He felt he was supposed to be thin, but his brain told him he was fat]

Hey, if I get a negro-plasty do you think I will be able to rap and play basketball? [No, I don't think these things constitute "being black", they are cultural stereotypes that are attributed to black people. Now, I can do these things without dying my skin black]

[You see, I'm not condemning anybody here, but simply showing how and why I cannot understand the reasoning behind transgenderism. That is not "transphobic" or ignorant, it is merely a different way of viewing things. If you're happy having major surgery to change your external appearance then go for it.]

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Very basically there are two genders, male and female. This correlates with brain structure. Female brains have greater connectivity between brain hemispheres, a bigger hypothalamus and other differences from male brains.In any human trait of course there is always a huge amount of variability and while there are distinct structural differences in brains of men and women, the differences between any one human and another human is greater. We are all unique.

There's also a difference between sex and gender. Sex is basically what one has between their legs. Gender is more of a social construct. These interact in different ways. A "man" in Japanese culture would be different than a man in Polynesian or Hispanic cultures.The same goes for women. People are assigned a gender at birth which doesn't always correlate with what they feel to be their gender.

Transgendered people have a feeling of incongruity between their body and mind. Transgenderism is sensationalized in the media today but their have always been TG people. There was an Egyptian pharaoh who was F to M. About 3/4 of all Native tribes in the US had a role of TGs. There are TG traditions in India, Polynesia, Indonesia.There's evidence that there were transgender people in ancient Norse, Slavic,and Celtic societies.

One of the many crimes of Christianity has been to suppress and stamp this out. The Spanish conquistadors were freaked out by TG people when they came to the New World. There's an picture of Balboa in Panama. Apparently he had Native transgenders rounded up, put into a pit, and chewed up by wild dogs.

Virtually every civilization in the world-including Islam-has had a role for TG people except for "Christendom". Recently there has been an increase in TG visibility because of the Internet. Connected to this there has been an enormous increase in violence against TG people, at least in the US. For working class TG people of color life can be a nightmare. In east coast US cities there's an incredible amount of police brutality against TGs. Amnesty International had a report on this a few years ago.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

The preferred term for what used to be called "hemaphrodites" is intersexed. This term is used in the US and UK, its not an Americanism. Its used by doctors, therapists, and intersexed people themselves.

Whether or not someone would want to "date a transsexual" should not be a litmus test whether or not one is a leftist. This topic was brought up in two other threads since I'be been on revleft. Having said that though a woman is much more than a baby factory. Both my parents very badly wanted to have kids. My Mom had twins but they were still born. My Dad went though a period of depression but, after lots of discussion, my parents decided to adopt.

Girls and boys growing up have widely vaired experiences. I think the uneasiness of people "NWTDAT" comes from something they're not used to. A [art of want TGs and their allies have to do is educate others. TGs are "normal people", they've always been part of the huge diversity that is hunanity.

[Thirsty Crow]

First off, it's hermaphrodite in my language. Me no speak americano.

Secondly, I don't like the fact that I'm skinny and not muscly.... I'm really a big tough guy on the inside.

Will getting silicone muscle implants suddenly make me a big strong man?

I don't like how my knees are very knobbly.... should I cut them off?

I had a friend who was anorexic, he just wanted to be really really thin, but instead of letting himself waste to death we all helped him get over it, now he is a healthy weight.

Hey, if I get a negro-plasty do you think I will be able to rap and play basketball?
Oh man, you are prejudiced.
Try to comprehend that your not liking the fact that you're skinny cannot even be compared to the feeling that Esperanza expressed.
There is biological basis for the phenomenon of transgendered people:

Some recent findings have provided clues and possibly answers as to how or why some or most cases of transsexuality occur. In 1997, J.N. Zhou, M.A. Hofman, L.J. Gooren and D.F. Swaab conducted tests on the brains of transgender individuals. Their tests showed that the volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a brain area that is essential for sexual behaviour, is larger in men than in women. A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation. Their study was the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones.[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#cite_note-76) Perhaps confirming why this brain difference occurs, in 2008 at Prince Henry's Institute of Medical Research in Melbourne, biological studies were performed to attempt to find a link between genes and transsexuality. Their study shows male to female transsexuals are more likely than non-transsexual males to have a longer version of a receptor gene for the sex hormone androgen or testosterone. The research suggests reduced androgen and androgen signaling contributes to the female gender identity of male to female transsexuals. They say that it is possible that a decrease in testosterone levels in the brain during development might result in incomplete masculinization of the brain in male to female transsexuals, resulting in a more feminized brain and a female gender identity

I get the feeling that what you are talking about are transvestites and crossdressers.
Even in that case, why not alter your body to satisfy your desires? Why wouldn't you, for example, use supplements and work out? Why, for that matter, wouldn't a man who "feels like a woman" or likes the appearance so much that he wants to become one not undergo a therapy?
Oh yeah, that costs much and the society at large still holds on to idiotic notions and effectively victimize, bully and discriminate against such people (not those who wish to be all strong and masculine and what not).

Educate yourself, it's not that hard given the fact that you can access the internet.

[Queercommie Girl]

Isn't that dualism though?


No technically it's not.

Transgenderism (or many cases of Transgenderism) originates from a discrepancy between brain sex and body sex. But both are physical - the brain sex is based on material brain structure.

Human beings have no "soul" in the idealistic sense, everything is material, including human thoughts, emotions etc.

[Queercommie Girl]

First off, it's hermaphrodite in my language. Me no speak americano.

Secondly, I don't like the fact that I'm skinny and not muscly.... I'm really a big tough guy on the inside.

Will getting silicone muscle implants suddenly make me a big strong man?

I don't like how my knees are very knobbly.... should I cut them off?


Why don't you do some work-out then? Are you suggesting that people should just accept their "fate" and always be content with what they are like, even when they want to change themselves? That's a reactionary conservative view.

In the future, when transhumanist technologies become available, people would be able to transform themselves far more than just superficial appearance. Should we stop people from doing so? I guess you oppose all the current research into genetics and biophysics then?



Hey, if I get a negro-plasty do you think I will be able to rap and play basketball?

You are a racist if you think "playing rap and basketball" = "being black".

[Queercommie Girl]

I just think you're born the way you are. It's a shame people can't be happy with themselves as they are and have to go through such excessive means to change themselves.


Many transgendered people are indeed "born the way they are". They are transgendered because their brain and body sex don't match.

The very fact that trans people are willing to go through such "excessive means" to change their sex, and people like you are not, plus the fact that only 0.1% of trans people regret their decision to change sex after the transition, clearly shows there are some underlying objective factors involved.

[Queercommie Girl]

One of the many crimes of Christianity has been to suppress and stamp this out. The Spanish conquistadors were freaked out by TG people when they came to the New World. There's an picture of Balboa in Panama. Apparently he had Native transgenders rounded up, put into a pit, and chewed up by wild dogs.

Virtually every civilization in the world-including Islam-has had a role for TG people except for "Christendom". Recently there has been an increase in TG visibility because of the Internet. Connected to this there has been an enormous increase in violence against TG people, at least in the US. For working class TG people of color life can be a nightmare. In east coast US cities there's an incredible amount of police brutality against TGs. Amnesty International had a report on this a few years ago.


I think it has more to do with the close association between Christianity in Western Europe and the emergence and expansion of Capitalism, rather than something intrinsic in Christianity itself. I don't think any kind of cultural essentialist analysis is correct from a Marxist point of view.

Christianity outside the West historically were indeed generally more tolerant of LGBT issues.

However, in every kind of class society transgendered people are systematically discriminated against. Even in Buddhist countries like Thailand where superficially it seems trans people have equality. It's just a difference in degree. The difference between getting viciously killed (in Christian civilisation), and becoming a social outcast (in Confucian civilisation), and have a social role but an extremely stereotypical and limiting one (in Hindu and Buddhist civilisations).

Just stopping violent hate crimes against trans people is not enough. Intrinsically there is no point in praising Buddhist civilisation above the Christian, even though the former is objective better for a certain sub-set of trans people, because we want and we demand full equality and this cannot happen without class society of any kind being completely abolished.

The difference between Buddhist and Christian civilisations when it comes to trans rights is like the difference between reformist social democracy and neo-liberal capitalism. But we want to abolish all forms of capitalism.

[Queercommie Girl]

The preferred term for what used to be called "hemaphrodites" is intersexed. This term is used in the US and UK, its not an Americanism. Its used by doctors, therapists, and intersexed people themselves.

Whether or not someone would want to "date a transsexual" should not be a litmus test whether or not one is a leftist. This topic was brought up in two other threads since I'be been on revleft. Having said that though a woman is much more than a baby factory. Both my parents very badly wanted to have kids. My Mom had twins but they were still born. My Dad went though a period of depression but, after lots of discussion, my parents decided to adopt.

Girls and boys growing up have widely vaired experiences. I think the uneasiness of people "NWTDAT" comes from something they're not used to. A [art of want TGs and their allies have to do is educate others. TGs are "normal people", they've always been part of the huge diversity that is hunanity.

But whether or not someone is transphobic should be.

[Reznov]

Kind of a silly question but, do you consider the "Shemales" as trans?

Or is that kind of deragotry?

[Queercommie Girl]

Kind of a silly question but, do you consider the "Shemales" as trans?

Or is that kind of deragotry?

Technically yes, but frankly "shemale" is only a term used in the porn industry.

The term "shemale" isn't intrinsically degoratory, but I think you might be watching too much porn.

[Reznov]

Technically yes, but frankly "shemale" is only a term used in the porn industry.

The term "shemale" isn't intrinsically degoratory, but I think you might be watching too much porn.

Ummmmm... uhhh... no comment.... :laugh:

But technically, a Shemale and a Trans are the same thing right? (When its male to female?)

[Vanguard1917]

A preoccupation/obsession with body image is not something i find attractive in a person's character.

[Queercommie Girl]

A preoccupation/obsession with body image is not something i find attractive in a person's character.

You are quite ignorant if you think transgenderism is just "a preoccupation with body image".

Transgenderism is not primarily about "body image", but about gender roles in the social sense. Why would someone who would like to assume a female gender role in society and be treated as a female by society necessarily "body image conscious", unless you think all females have an obsession with "body image"?

To care about one's body image doesn't necessarily imply caring about it in the capitalist consumerist sense either, so it is not intrinsically reactionary at all. Socialism is not about abstract freedom but concrete material freedom, and the right of bodily autonomy is an important part of freedom in this sense.

[Queercommie Girl]

Ummmmm... uhhh... no comment.... :laugh:

But technically, a Shemale and a Trans are the same thing right? (When its male to female?)

Not completely. Usually shemales are MtFs who have not gone the whole way with respect to surgery. (I.e. pre-ops or partially pre-ops)

[Reznov]

Not completely. Usually shemales are MtFs who have not gone the whole way with respect to surgery. (I.e. pre-ops or partially pre-ops)

So, Shemales are basically fake and a product of the porn industry?

[Queercommie Girl]

So, Shemales are basically fake and a product of the porn industry?

Generally not. I think in a minority of cases there might be people who are not trans at all who enter into the porn industry purely for economic reasons, but in most cases trans people who enter the porn industry are genuinely transgendered, but they do porn etc mainly out of economic necessity, or in a minority of cases, due to their subjective desire and choice to do so.

[Reznov]

Generally not. I think in a minority of cases there might be people who are not trans at all who enter into the porn industry purely for economic reasons, but in most cases trans people who enter the porn industry are genuinely transgendered, but they do porn etc mainly out of economic necessity, or in a minority of cases, due to their subjective desire and choice to do so.

I see.

So, there is no difference between a Shemale and a Trans MtF person then? Other then one being exploited by the porn industry?

[Queercommie Girl]

I see.

So, there is no difference between a Shemale and a Trans MtF person then? Other then one being exploited by the porn industry?

Technically shemales are only a subset of MtF trans people - those who have taken hormones but have not completely gone through surgery.

[Reznov]

Technically shemales are only a subset of MtF trans people - those who have taken hormones but have not completely gone through surgery.

Ah, okay. And why do they do this?

And, why does the porn industry specifically choose "Shemales"?

[Vanguard1917]

You are quite ignorant if you think transgenderism is just "a preoccupation with body image".

Transgenderism is not primarily about "body image", but about gender roles in the social sense. Why would someone who would like to assume a female gender role in society and be treated as a female by society necessarily "body image conscious", unless you think all females have an obsession with "body image"?

Ok, but why should i see it as perfectly fine for someone to resort to such extreme physical changes in order to feel comfortable in society? If someone thinks it necessary to have very serious surgical procedures performed on their body in order to find their place in society, we have to surely see that as problematic: there is either something going wrong with society or with the person's psychological state.

In the end, a person should, of course, be free to decide for themselves what they do with their own body. But that does not mean that i have to unquestioningly be happy with the phenomenon.

[Queercommie Girl]

Ah, okay. And why do they do this?

And, why does the porn industry specifically choose "Shemales"?

You mean why haven't they gone the whole way in terms of surgery?

In some cases it's because they choose not to, they may consider themselves genderqueer (both male and female in some ways) rather than fully female; or maybe they are in the process of transitioning and haven't got enough money to pay for full surgery yet; also the porn industry sometimes specifically want to have "shemales" because there is more of a demand for them than full MtFs apparently, perhaps because full MtFs are physically just like cis-women but "shemales" are more "exotic".

[Queercommie Girl]

Ok, but why should i see it as perfectly fine for someone to resort to such extreme physical changes in order to feel comfortable in society? If someone thinks it necessary to have very serious surgical procedures performed on their bodies in order to find their place in society, we have to surely see that as problematic: there is either something going wrong with society or with the person's psychological state.

In the end, a person should, of course, be free to decide for themselves what they do with their own body. But that does not mean that i have to unquestioningly be happy with the phenomenon being discussed.

Technically that is scientifically true with at least a large subset of transgendered people.

Technically transgenderism is indeed partly a medical condition caused by one's brain structures (brain sex) not fitting in with one's body/physical sex. The process of sex change is to correct the physical sex so that it fits in with the brain sex, the latter is primary for humans since we are sentient self-conscious lifeforms and our self-consciousness defines who we are. One could say that a successful sex change is the only "cure" for this condition.

But just because transgenderism is partly a medical condition certainly does not mean trans people should be criticised or discriminated against in anyway, just as one should not discriminate against anyone else with any kind of health problem. On the contrary, any kind of socialist society should have a comprehensive public welfare and healthcare system that certainly should outstrip anything capitalist countries have now, and people with any kind of condition should be fully cared for and respected in a socialist society. That is one reason people fight for socialism now - for the social security it could offer that capitalist society with its privatised healthcare and threat of unemployment etc could not.

If society becomes completely genderless, in principle transgenderism as a phenomenon might disappear. If in the future transhumanist technologies become available that can transcend sex in the fundamental genetic sense, then by definition transgenderism becomes an non-issue. But transgenderism is not an abstract issue, it is a practical issue. A genderless society might not come about for another 1000 years.

You might not be transphobic in the sense that you don't oppose people's free choice to change sex, but you are wrong to see the issue as problematic and therefore treat trans people unequally compared with cis people. Just because it might indeed be a medical condition as you suggested, does not in any way mean trans people should not be treated equally and with respect. Is it their fault that they have this condition? On the contrary, the socialist society with its comprehensive public welfare system should fully care for trans people, and trans people after a successful transition can indeed fully function socially as his/her desired gender and contribute to society like any other man or woman.

I'm not saying people should be encouraged to change sex "just for fun" and in a flippant way. And indeed even if sex changes become easy and trans people are fully treated equally by society in general, I still doubt most cis-gendered people would subjectively ever desire to change sex. Surely this shows there is something fundamentally biological to transgenderism and it's not just a purely "subjective choice". Unless of course material conditions drastically change in the future and transhumanist technologies make biological sex differentiation a thing of history.

But transgenderism in the genuine sense is a serious issue itself. As socialists, we should fight for a society in which trans people can be treated equally and with respect, and be cared for by public welfare, so that they can contribute to society to the full, rather than be seen as some kind of "problem" and be discriminated against. That would be against human rights, and also a waste of productive force since if treated equally and have a successful transition, most trans people can lead very happy and productive lives, which is surely good both for themselves and society in general.

[Queercommie Girl]

Ok, but why should i see it as perfectly fine for someone to resort to such extreme physical changes in order to feel comfortable in society? If someone thinks it necessary to have very serious surgical procedures performed on their body in order to find their place in society, we have to surely see that as problematic: there is either something going wrong with society or with the person's psychological state.

In the end, a person should, of course, be free to decide for themselves what they do with their own body. But that does not mean that i have to unquestioningly be happy with the phenomenon.

Maybe you should educate yourself a bit more with this article here on RevLeft:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/transgenderism-t139511/index.html?t=139511

[Vanguard1917]

You might not be transphobic in the sense that you don't oppose people's free choice to change sex, but you are wrong to see the issue as problematic and therefore treat trans people unequally compared with cis people. Just because it might indeed be a medical condition as you suggested, does not in any way mean trans people should not be treated equally and with respect. Is it their fault that they have this condition?

If something is a medical condition, it is by definition a problem. So yes, if you define it as a condition, you have to see it as 'problematic', in the same way as you would see, say, asthma or diabetes. You would look for ways to cure it and eradicate it. You would not celebrate it as some special 'human identity'. You would not respect the existence of the illness, even though you would respect those who suffer from it.

But i have a feeling that it is not a medical condition at all, but something which has its roots in society, politics and culture. I think it is a social problem that some people feel that they need to undergo very serious surgical operations in an attempt to feel more comfortable in society.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

TGism isn't quite a medical condition, that is, a malfunctioning of the human body which needs to be cured. There's no "cure" for being TG. Cures have been tried-electroshock, aversion therapy, hypnosis, psychoanalysis, religious conversion. Like Christian fundies trying to "cure" homosexuality, it just doesn't work. Its something hard wired into the brain.

TG people have, to varying extents, the brain structure of the "opposite" gender to which they have been assigned. Transsexuals are people whose inconguence between brain and body is greater.There's nothing reactionary about someone choosing surgery so their mind is in congruence with how they feel as a person.There are cultures where people have done this for 1,000 of years like the hijras of India.

Its not people having surgery so they can feel comfortable in society but people having surgery so they can feel comfortable with themselves. Transgenderism is a conditional which transcends societies. Every culture in the world at some time had a role for TGs.Its part of the infinite diversity of humanity. In a future socialist society there will still be hetero people, homosexual and lesbian people, and transgender people.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

First off, it's hermaphrodite in my language. Me no speak americano.
No, intersexed is the term in most if not all english speaking countries.


I had a friend who was anorexic, he just wanted to be really really thin, but instead of letting himself waste to death we all helped him get over it, now he is a healthy weight.
There is no way to"get over" being born into a body that does not match your gender except to change the body to match the gender. Repressing one's gender identity can lead to serious emotional issues and in a significant percentage, attempts too take one's own life. For some transitioning can be life saving, starving one's self to death is obviously not.


Hey, if I get a negro-plasty do you think I will be able to rap and play basketball?

You are a racist pig. How you haven't been banned is beyond me.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Ah, okay. And why do they do this?

And, why does the porn industry specifically choose "Shemales"?

Because in Western society publicity surrounding TG people is highly sensationalized and sexualized. Genetic women are commodified, TG women are commodified a thousand times more.She isn't a person with thoughts, feelings, struggles, and goals of her own.An M to F tranny isn't just a person w/gender dysphoria but a "chick with a dick". That is almost the only way TGs are presented in our society.

Some men for a variety of reasons are turned on by this.Sometimes "trannychasers" are repressed homosexuals, in denial. Often they are repressed TGs themselves. Its a "kink" which is acceptable among straight men. There's a market for TG porn.

Many TGs, without "job skills" useful to the ruling class, have no way to make a living other than prostitution. There is a complicated interaction between sexuality, power, and money under capitalism.

For a different view of transgender women

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSsuccesses.html

I have a few issues with Lynn Conway-her examples are very bourgeois oriented , but she does provide an alternative to the "chick with a dick" sensationalism.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Because in Western society publicity surrounding TG people is highly sensationalized and sexualized. Genetic women are commodified, TG women are commodified a thousand times more.She isn't a person with thoughts, feelings, struggles, and goals of her own.An M to F tranny isn't just a person w/gender dysphoria but a "chick with a dick". That is almost the only way TGs are presented in our society.

Some men for a variety of reasons are turned on by this.Sometimes "trannychasers" are repressed homosexuals, in denial. Often they are repressed TGs themselves. Its a "kink" which is acceptable among straight men. There's a market for TG porn.

Many TGs, without "job skills" useful to the ruling class, have no way to make a living other than prostitution. There is a complicated interaction between sexuality, power, and money under capitalism.

For a different view of transgender women

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSsuccesses.html

I have a few issues with Lynn Conway-her examples are very bourgeois oriented , but she does provide an alternative to the "chick with a dick" sensationalism.

Well said!:thumbup1:

[Adi Shankara]

But i have a feeling that it is not a medical condition at all, but something which has its roots in society, politics and culture. I think it is a social problem that some people feel that they need to undergo very serious surgical operations in an attempt to feel more comfortable in society.

My thoughts exactly; it's probably where you get people who hate their ethnicity as well.

[Queercommie Girl]

If something is a medical condition, it is by definition a problem. So yes, if you define it as a condition, you have to see it as 'problematic', in the same way as you would see, say, asthma or diabetes. You would look for ways to cure it and eradicate it. You would not celebrate it as some special 'human identity'. You would not respect the existence of the illness, even though you would respect those who suffer from it.


It's a "problem" for which the only solution is to respect the subjective gender of the person who is transgendered. That is the only "cure" that is possible, certainly at the moment.

If you don't respect the subjective gender identity of a trans person, i.e. don't treat a trans-man as a man and a trans-woman as a woman, then by definition you are not respecting the person with the condition. And that also makes you a transphobe.

Transgenderism is not for everyone. But for people who are truly transgendered, apart from letting them have a successful sex change and then truly respect them as equals in their chosen genders, how else can the situation be solved? Socialism is all but having practical solutions to concrete problems, trans activism is no exception. Why don't you tell me how this issue can be solved then, send trans people to Nazi concentration camps?

On the other hand, I don't understand why people oppose transgenderism. It's not like we are forcing anyone to change sex. To change sex is our decision, and it does not harm anyone else. Shouldn't genuine socialists support all kinds of freedom as long as it does not harm or hinder others? I certainly think so, which is why I am of the opinion that every genuine socialist should support trans rights.



But i have a feeling that it is not a medical condition at all, but something which has its roots in society, politics and culture. I think it is a social problem that some people feel that they need to undergo very serious surgical operations in an attempt to feel more comfortable in society.You are mistaken because the scientific evidence suggests otherwise. Unless you can refute the scientific evidence on a scientific level, rather than an ideological one, you are just talking rubbish.

Even if one takes a step back and agree that there are certain "ultimate social causes" for transgenderism, perhaps partly due to the very rigid gender roles that are imposed on people in general by class society, in practice it makes no difference. Any real socialist should still respect transgendered people and all of their democratic rights. Being transphobic will never make the issue go away at all, it would just be a very reactionary approach to things.

An analogy can be drawn with religion. Marxists might say there must something wrong with society in general which makes so many people believe those superstitious ideas so firmly. But any genuine socialist should still respect the people's freedom to believe in religions as long as they are not explicitly reactionary. Because using political force against religion, or using rational arguments against religion, will never make religion go away as long as the socio-economic basis for religion is still present.

In whatever way you look at it, there is no justification for your transphobic attitude.

Of course, here I'm just raising a "what if" scenario. The objective fact is that it makes no sense from a Marxist perspective to primarily explain transgenderism as something that emerges due to the oppressive structures of class society. If this were the case, then how do you explain the existence of transgendered people, who were largely treated equally, among primitive communist tribes in many parts of the world, when there was no class oppression in existence?

Therefore transgenderism is not primarily a social phenomenon, it is a natural phenomenon.

Frankly for a Marxist-Leninist, (if you are a Trotskyist then it is even worse, I've yet to meet a Western Trot - and I've had plenty of dealings with them - who is so explicitly transphobic like you are, deciding not to date trans people is one thing, that's just a personal choice, but showing no respect to trans people, dismissing them as those simply "obsessed" with "body image" is quite another, yes you are transphobic) you are indeed very ignorant on this matter, I suggest you read the following book first before carrying on with any kind of discussion and debate so at least you have some kind of intellectual grounding in this matter.

It's a book produced by the Trotskyist British SWP. It's a Marxist history and analysis of LGBT politics in general, including transgender issues.

The Red in the Rainbow: Sexuality, Socialism & LGBT Liberation

http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=11338

Also it's funny you dismiss transgenderism as a kind of "bourgeois consumerist obsession with body image", when your own quote seems to refute this view:

"Socialism means plenty for all. We do not preach a gospel of want and scarcity, but of abundance … We do not call for limitation of births, for penurious thrift, and self-denial. We call for a great production that will supply all, and more than all the people can consume." - Sylvia Pankhurst (http://www.marxists.org/archive/pankhurst-sylvia/1923/socialism.htm)

So how come this logic doesn't apply to trans people? Why is it that abundant consumption in every other way is good, except when gender identity and expression is involved? Why is "gender" this "sacred distinction" that no-one should cross?

[Queercommie Girl]

My thoughts exactly; it's probably where you get people who hate their ethnicity as well.

Your thought is contrary to scientific and medical evidence on transgenderism.

It's interesting that you, in your defence of traditional gender roles, can accept scientific evidence suggesting an underlying biological difference between the sexes at the level of hormones and brain structure. But when the same kind of evidence shows the underlying biological basis for transgenderism, you begin to reject it. If this doesn't reflect your intrinsic reactionary transphobic attitude, I don't know what does.

And it makes no sense from a Marxist point of view. If transgenderism is the result of the oppressive structures of class society, then how come it existed widely in primitive communist societies, which didn't have any class or social oppression? I challenge you to explain this.

Therefore transgenderism is not social, it is natural.

[Queercommie Girl]

I don't think trans people need a justification to change their sex anyway.

The kind of freedom socialists fight for is primarily material freedom, not abstract freedom. Freedom and equality are meaningless if they are not reflected in the daily livelihood of the people in general.

If a person wishes to change sex because he or she wishes to live as the opposite gender, why is it fundamental wrong? Just because the process of transition may be "extreme" doesn't make it wrong. People still have a choice to do so. It is indeed a part of the material freedom people should have. No matter how equal the genders become, short of arriving at a genderless society in the literal transhumanist sense, there will still be many things that one gender can do which the other cannot. This is partly why transgenderism existed widely even in primitive communist societies, when the genders were indeed socially equal.

It's funny how many people here could support the recreational use of drugs on the basis of the "bodily autonomy" argument, but reject the same argument when it comes to transgenderism.

[Queercommie Girl]

Whether or not transgenderism is a "medical condition" is not an intrinsic question, but dependent on the socio-economic conditions of the age.

In capitalist society, it is indeed socially considered to be a "medical condition". But in primitive communist societies, where there are more than 2 legally accepted genders, and crossing from one gender to another is not seen as something that is abnormal, transgenderism was not treated like a "medical condition".

The point is that transgenderism definitely has a biological basis to a significant extent, that much is natural, but whether or not this biological difference is seen as an "illness" is dependent on socio-economic factors.

So is transgenderism a "medical condition"? Yes, and no. Yes because it is officially treated as such in capitalist society, and the transgendered movement being a practical social movement must acknowledge this social reality even if it might not be intrinsically correct, in order to fight for and acquire the necessary welfare for trans people; no because in a classless society with complete gender equality, and where people are free to express their sexuality and gender identity however they wish, transgenderism would not be seen as an intrinsic "illness", as if it is something that is fundamentally negative.

[Queercommie Girl]

Its not people having surgery so they can feel comfortable in society but people having surgery so they can feel comfortable with themselves.

I think physical and social dysphoria are linked.

[Gabe87]

I voted yes ... im bi after all so this woudent be any different for me than dating a man or a woman :)

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

My thoughts exactly; it's probably where you get people who hate their ethnicity as well.

There is more of a historical basis to support the point that gender incongruence is completely natural. Transphobia is a social illness that is a relatively new phenomenon. It's not like hating one's own nationality as that is less inherent. If someone is born of both parents being british but was raised from infancy in france, with french culture, french language, french parents by a french name, they would not likely know the difference especially in childhood. With gender identity, if there is an incongruence, it is not uncommon for the person with the incongruence to know at a very early age.

[Queercommie Girl]

There is more of a historical basis to support the point that gender incongruence is completely natural. Transphobia is a social illness that is a relatively new phenomenon. It's not like hating one's own nationality as that is less inherent. If someone is born of both parents being british but was raised from infancy in france, with french culture, french language, french parents by a french name, they would not likely know the difference especially in childhood. With gender identity, if there is an incongruence, it is not uncommon for the person with the incongruence to know at a very early age.

Exactly. Many trans people have strong trans feelings from a very early age. Like the Chinese trans-woman Jin Xing here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Xing

"She experienced strong transsexual desires early in life. She said she would stay outside during rain, and wish that a lightning strike would turn her body female. "

As the saying goes, "children do not lie". Surely when young children experience strong trans feelings, there is likely to be an underlying biological explanation?

[Meridian]

I'll say like the comedian Louis CK: "I don't have a policy against sucking a dick, I've just never seen a dick I wanted to suck."

And I guess the same is true for me about 'trans persons'. I wouldn't care about that fact about them if other traits of the person made me interested. I dislike the idea of heavily categorizing people like that.

[Adi Shankara]

It's funny how many people here could support the recreational use of drugs on the basis of the "bodily autonomy" argument, but reject the same argument when it comes to transgenderism.

I'd never ever tell an unhappy person to take drugs to compensate for their pain.

If a person is happy with their body but still wants to be a transsexual, then that's alright. but it worries me that someone is so unhappy with themselves, they think they need fundamentally altering surgery to fit a societal pattern or else risk the possibility of suicide or worse.

I'm on the side of transsexuals, trust me; I just hope it's being done for the right reasons and in a content state of mind, not to correct an unhappiness that could be resultant from a childhood abuse or schema that has come to affect them later in life.

[Homo Songun]

The trans women I know have a terrible time with dating. Some of them have harrowing stories about being beaten up, more often just treated crappily by creeps obsessed with their genitalia and so on. I know fewer trans men, but they seem to have a relatively easier time, although still difficult.

Anyways, to answer the question, yes: but only if she was a leftist. :lol:

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I'm on the side of transsexuals, trust me; I just hope it's being done for the right reasons and in a content state of mind, not to correct an unhappiness that could be resultant from a childhood abuse or schema that has come to affect them later in life.
The unhappiness is not childhood abuse, but something more inherent from birth. There can be (and it is not unoften) that there is a component of mistreatment (societal or from an individual) which can exacerbate the emotional issues that can already be caused from being born into the wrong body in the first place.

[Ele'ill]

Yes

[Queercommie Girl]

The trans women I know have a terrible time with dating. Some of them have harrowing stories about being beaten up, more often just treated crappily by creeps obsessed with their genitalia and so on. I know fewer trans men, but they seem to have a relatively easier time, although still difficult.

Anyways, to answer the question, yes: but only if she was a leftist. :lol:

It depends on where one is, and which class one is in.

For instance, some parts of Asia and Europe are more trans-friendly than America. In Southern Europe trans people at most get verbally attacked, but very rarely get physically hurt or killed. In South-eastern Asian countries there is sometimes a historical tradition of trans people being accepted by society, such as in Thailand, but they are still heavily stereotyped and treated unequally. In the US hate crimes against trans people happen at a higher frequency.

As a rule of thumb, "southern" countries are generally more trans-friendly than "northern" countries. Italy is better than Sweden, and Thailand is better than Mongolia. Perhaps it is related to Gramsci's idea of a cultural difference between the North and the South, and the fact that relatively speaking "southern" countries have a more "feminine" culture. Historically trans people were largely treated equally during the matriarchal era of primitive communism, but began to be discriminated against when patriarchy and class society emerged.

Also, higher class trans people are less likely to experience hate crimes as well as physical and verbal abuse than lower class trans people. Some higher class trans people are actually politically right-wing.

[Queercommie Girl]

A preoccupation/obsession with body image is not something i find attractive in a person's character.

Borderline transphobia due to ignorance is not something I find attractive in a person's character. :rolleyes:

Interesting you think trans-women wanting to get breasts is a form of "body image obsession". I wonder whether or not you would feel the same way with trans-men wanting to get a penis. Why is it that feminine body types are automatically more associated with consumerism-type body image obsession?

[Queercommie Girl]

I'd never ever tell an unhappy person to take drugs to compensate for their pain.

If a person is happy with their body but still wants to be a transsexual, then that's alright. but it worries me that someone is so unhappy with themselves, they think they need fundamentally altering surgery to fit a societal pattern or else risk the possibility of suicide or worse.

I'm on the side of transsexuals, trust me; I just hope it's being done for the right reasons and in a content state of mind, not to correct an unhappiness that could be resultant from a childhood abuse or schema that has come to affect them later in life.

Not all trans people are objectively dysphoric. Some people literally just wish to change sex purely due to free subjective choice.

But many trans people do experience some kind of body dysphoria. For them, the only real solution is to change sex. If you worry about these people, then surely you should support their decision to change sex even more in order to end their distress.

[Queercommie Girl]

Transgenderism, although it has biological roots, isn't really a "medical condition" in the standard sense. But objectively in capitalist society it is treated as a medical condition.

But it would be a mistake to label transgenderism as a "psychological condition", since in dysphoric conditions, when body and brain sex don't match, it is the body sex that needs to be changed, not brain sex. Calling transgender dysphoria a "psychological condition" sounds like it is the "brain sex" that is wrong. But unless there are also other psychological issues involved, there is nothing wrong at all with a trans person's mind in itself, indeed, some trans people are highly intelligent or even gifted in some ways. And empirically there has never been a type of psychotherapy that convinced genuinely dysphoric people to change their desire for a sex-change. It is better to think of trans dysphoria as a kind of "physical deformation" of the body.

[isaacston]

Because they are straight. Dating a post op trans person is the same as dating a natural born person of that sex. I can understand why a straight person would not want to date a pre op trans person. They are still physically the same sex as them. Perhaps you are referring to pre op trans only? Because, frankly, you not making the distinction. Which leaves one to assume that you don't accept their gender.
Unless we all walk around with our pants off, I see not wanting to date a pre-op or non-op trans* person as bigoted. We are the gender we identify as. You don't have to be attracted to our genitalia, but you do have to respect us by accepting us as the people we are.

[Ele'ill]

Ok in the future can we not revive really old threads and instead maybe send the person you want to respond to a private message. I'd even be ok with starting an identical poll on the topic since this one is about two years old.

also welcome to the forum :)

[arilando]

No because i'm attracted to people of the opposite sex, not people of the same sex as me.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

I wouldn't be open to the idea personally. Same reason as arilando said.

[The Jay]

I wouldn't marry one due to the issue of children. As for dating, if I was already dating them and then found out I don't think that I'd break up since I already liked the person. If I knew before hand I don't think so.

There should be a thread on cultural remnants in the psyche. It took me months before I felt comfortable saying 'god damn it' after I became an atheist. This is probably one of those things.

[Left Leanings]

Yes. I'm bisexual, and you fancy who you fancy.

[zoot_allures]

Yes. I'm willing to date anyone who looks attractive to me.

[Le Rouge]

No, I'll pass.

[ForgedConscience]

Personally I wouldn't, but not out of any ethical opposition to transgenderism. When I first begin my train of thought there seemed to be several reasons mainly to do with aesthetic taste and post-operation infertility, but the arguments here have convinced me that in the end it probably boils down to a prejudice instilled in me by the way in which society stigmatises trans people. By this I mean that ultimately the reason why I wouldn't date a trans even if they looked attractive to me is because the knowledge that they were formerly of another sex instantly extinguishes any of the said attraction and produces feelings of disgust. This is all the more surprising because I'm bisexual, so it makes even less sense that I have this response. I'm by no means defending it, but I do not think it would be easy for me to bring myself to think of a trans person as the gender they wish to be, or to enter into a relationship with them.

[RedAnarchist]

No because i'm attracted to people of the opposite sex, not people of the same sex as me.

But what if they have transitioned to be the opposite sex of whichever sex you are?

[Ostrinski]

Post-op then sure, pre then no.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

But what if they have transitioned to be the opposite sex of whichever sex you are?

The fact that they were the previous sex would freak me out, personally.

[gorillafuck]

this thread is so old.

the only reason I can imagine not dating a post-op trans person solely for that fact would be out of a want for biological children.

[Ostrinski]

The fact that they were the previous sex would freak me out, personally.Why?

[Bronco]

Honestly I wouldn't, no

[Igor]

I would if post-op. Pre-op there would be a certain thing that would really be pretty hard to overcome.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

I support the LGBTQ community, but I am sorry, there is no way I can do that.

[Ostrinski]

I would if post-op. Pre-op there would be a certain thing that would really be pretty hard to overcome.rofl

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Ew at the pre-op, post-op thing. I will just stick with women in the bedroom and transexuals in solidarity against oppression. Women-bedroom. Transexuals-solidarity. That's just how I want to live my life.

[Ostrinski]

I still don't understand what the big deal about being with someone who is post-op is.

[00001]

pretty much what ForgedConscience said. I am sure it is because of residual prejudices, and so I have absolutely no interest in defending my feelings, but I just don't think that I would be able to get past it.

[Igor]

Ew at the pre-op, post-op thing. I will just stick with women in the bedroom and transexuals in solidarity against oppression. Women-bedroom. Transexuals-solidarity. That's just how I want to live my life.

trans women are women. i mean yeah, i can get some people can't over the idea sexually and i'm not into judging or anything but please not try to use language ignorant of trans issues. gender and nowadays even sex are a lot more than what set of genitalia you were born into, there's no reason to consider trans women anything else than women.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

trans women are women. i mean yeah, i can get some people can't over the idea sexually and i'm not into judging or anything but please not try to use language ignorant of trans issues. gender and nowadays even sex are a lot more than what set of genitalia you were born into, there's no reason to consider trans women anything else than women.

Well, I am talking about myself, so there is no wrong answer. All I am saying is that I stand in solidarity with every type of oppressed sexuality, but that I also only wish to have have relationships with women that were born as women.

[ColonelCossack]

I am not certain.

[Igor]

Well, I am talking about myself, so there is no wrong answer. All I am saying is that I stand in solidarity with every type of oppressed sexuality, but that I also only wish to have have relationships with women that were born as women.

there is. trans women are women, that's not up to you and there are wrong answers, whether you'd date them is up to you. i'm just asking you to stop meaning exclusively cis-women when you talk about women

[black magick hustla]

if they dont have a dick then i dont really care lol

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Yes, I would. Then again, I'm trans and bi, so it doesn't make a difference to me.

[kashkin]

I would post-op. Maybe people are attracted to physical sex, not gender.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

yeah, but it seems that only bigots are attracted to chromosomes

[Valdyr]

I have and I would again.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

yeah, but it seems that only bigots are attracted to chromosomes

Having two (I am sorry for those with more due to disease) X chromosomes is a prerequisite for me to love a woman, but I am no bigot. That is my personal decision and you cannot call me a bigot just because you do not agree. I believe in complete and absolute equality for all sexualities and genders, but I follow genetics when I personally consider a person a man or a woman. Yet, if a person gets a sex change, I also believe that that person should get to be legally considered whatever he or she wants (as long as the genetic sex is recorded somewhere). You see, my personal preference has nothing to do with what I believe should happen in society or in law.

Oh, and to Igor, like I just said above, I only look at real (not legal) gender through the window of genetics (even with a disease like Turner's Syndrome, that person would still a women due to the X chromosome, so don't say I overlooked the disease issue). I really do not personally care if a woman calls herself a man and gets a penis. To me personally, that person is still a woman, even though she should have the right to be 100% equal and be legally considered whatever she wants. I guess we have very different views on gender, but I take a strictly genetics based view.

[Sheepy]

"No I don't want to date anyone who is trans - 36.92%"

Wow, thanks guys. No really...

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Having two (I am sorry for those with more due to disease) X chromosomes is a prerequisite for me to love a woman, but I am no bigot. That is my personal decision and you cannot call me a bigot just because you do not agree. I believe in complete and absolute equality for all sexualities and genders, but I follow genetics when I personally consider a person a man or a woman. Yet, if a person gets a sex change, I also believe that that person should get to be legally considered whatever he or she wants (as long as the genetic sex is recorded somewhere). You see, my personal preference has nothing to do with what I believe should happen in society or in law.

Oh, and to Igor, like I just said above, I only look at real (not legal) gender through the window of genetics (even with a disease like Turner's Syndrome, that person would still a women due to the X chromosome, so don't say I overlooked the disease issue). I really do not personally care if a woman calls herself a man and gets a penis. To me personally, that person is still a woman, even though she should have the right to be 100% equal and be legally considered whatever she wants. I guess we have very different views on gender, but I take a strictly genetics based view.

grow up

[RedAnarchist]

Having two (I am sorry for those with more due to disease) X chromosomes is a prerequisite for me to love a woman, but I am no bigot.

So, do you pay for the karyotype test or do they have to get some sort of certificate of proof regarding being an XX individual?

[eyeheartlenin]

"No I don't want to date anyone who is trans - 36.92%"

Wow, thanks guys. No really...

Why on earth should anyone care about the dating preferences of other people? All these attempts to regulate choices other people can legitimately make for themselves amaze me. People should be absolutely free to chose for themselves whom they want to date. That utterly personal decision should not be dictated by the needs of the trans movement.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

So, do you pay for the karyotype test or do they have to get some sort of certificate of proof regarding being an XX individual?

You just shitted all over my idea.

I guess I'll just take a wild guess. Anyways, I think I'll know if someone is a woman by birth just by the genitalia (or relatively know).

But I still believe in my concept of gender even though I will not be able to utilize it when deciding to have a relationship with someone. So, to me, gender is still completely and absolutely based on chromosomes.

[kashkin]

So, to me, gender is still completely and absolutely based on chromosomes.
Do you mean gender or sex? Because in both cases, you are wrong. There are people who are born female yet have a Y chromosome and people born male with two X chromosomes.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

There are people who are born female yet have a Y chromosome and people born male with two X chromosomes.

No. If you have at least one Y chromosome, in my opinion, you are absolutely, positively a male. If you have only X chromosomes, in my opinion, you are absolutely, positively a female.

[kashkin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
So what if a person is born with an X and a Y chromosome and has female genitalia? As for taking a wild guess, would you be willing to break up a good relationship just because your partner was born with a Y chromosome (assuming no surgery)?

[00001]

I think this whole thread is pretty dumb, to be honest. If someone supports full equality for trans people, I don't see why their dating preferences should be at all relevant.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
So what if a person is born with an X and a Y chromosome and has female genitalia?

Genetically, that is still a man. Anyways, I think I might have strayed off a bit and started discussing what constitutes a man or a woman instead of my personal preference. My personal preference: my partner has to be a woman (appearantly I can never be sure), she has to look like a woman, and she has to have female genitalia. If you don't like it, that's bad, you are not me.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

In this thread, being a homophobe or transphobe seems to be an acceptable thing. Ah, the left.

[00001]

In this thread, being a homophone or transphobe seems to be an acceptable thing. Ah, the left.

Death to homophones!

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Death to homophones!

Oops, but scarcely worth a post, is it? Unlike this abomination of a thread.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

In this thread, being a homophobe or transphobe seems to be an acceptable thing. Ah, the left.

Oh, just because people are not willing to make love to or fall in love with transgender or transsexual people they are automatically transphobic? No. Wrong.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Oh, just because people are not willing to make love to or fall in love with transgender or transsexual people they are automatically transphobic? No. Wrong.

No, but when they think they can see people's chromosomes with their x-ray vision, they are.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

No, but when they think they can see people's chromosomes with their x-ray vision, they are.

I can't, but if I could, that is how I would absolutely decide the gender of a person. Also, don't you think it is a little silly to call me transphobic when I constantly say that I stand in solidarity with the entire LGBTQ community and that I support the equal rights of all sexualities? No, but just like with the pedophile thread, you are simply pulling things out your emotional ass and not adding anything to the conversation.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I really do not personally care if a woman calls herself a man and gets a penis. To me personally, that person is still a woman, even though she should have the right to be 100% equal and be legally considered whatever she wants.
It could be perceived as transphobic to call a transman a "woman" and call him "she" just because of genetics.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Also, don't you think it is a little silly to call me transphobic when I constantly say that I stand in solidarity with the entire LGBTQ community and that I support the equal rights of all sexualities?
No, it's not silly, if you determine the correct pronouns for transpeople based on their genetics and not by the gender they live as.

[Igor]

chromosome-based sexuality sounds pretty dull but whatever mister science

[Railyon]

Yes I would; actually I have a really big soft spot for transwomen with male genitalia (hope that doesn't sound like I'm reducing them to their mere genitalia here...).

[Bronco]

I don't think it's necessarily true that those who wouldn't want to date a transperson are transphobic. I agree that a transwoman is indeed a woman if that's what they choose to identify as, and I'd support them against discrimination and prejudice; my personal dating preferences don't change that. Maybe if I knew a transperson it'd change my view, and maybe it is just because of underlying prejudices I might hold, because I don't feel like it's something I'd be able to get past in a partner but I can't really articulate why..

[Game Girl]

I'll date anyone who isn't a prick. So, my choices are limited. LOL

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

My personal preference: my partner has to be a woman (appearantly I can never be sure), she has to look like a woman, and she has to have female genitalia.

first, you have again proven my point that you and folks who think like you are bigots. you are defining what is and what isnt a woman based on bullshit cis sexist notions and erasing the identities of trans people. but i guess it's just so fucking imperative that you defend your personal prefences here at the expense of other peoples' rights.
you also cannot know what (internal) genitalia someone has just by looking at them. a transwoman who has undergone gynoplasty has female genitalia as far as anybody is concerned. doctors dont assign gender to babies by looking their internal organs. in fact the way in which doctors do assign gender is often extremely problematic, concerning intersex ppl, but that's another issue for another day. for what it's worth, ive seen cis women with far more masculine looking physical features than some transwomen.
like i said, please grow the fuck up.

[Kotze]

Eeeeh, this thread again?

Being trans is not a dealbreaker for me. I like winter more than summer. I don't want to kiss someone who smokes. My favourite colour is black. I don't want to have sex with The Doctor or his mom on a forklift. I like pizza. Is there anything else you need to know to decide whether I'm a true leftist?


but i guess it's just so fucking imperative that you defend your personal prefences here at the expense of other peoples' rights.Their right to have sex with him :rolleyes:

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

no, their right to be women obviously

[Le Rouge]

Mhh. Depends. I'm willing to date anybody with a girl body i guess. She must have a vagina too...I hate penises. (exepted mine)
It could be weird though to tell my friends/family that this person is in fact a boy stuck inside a girl's body.

But i'm already with someone :) So it's irrelevant from now.

[Aurora]

*edit* nevermind i figured it out.
Maybe this time we can get it right...

[Art Vandelay]

I think it should be pointed out, that recently the girl who won Miss Canada to go to Miss Universe was disqualified from the competition after it came out she was born a male. I must say that she was gorgeous and as a straight man, had I not known...... But truthfully, whether or not it says something about me and underlying homophobic tencdecies, I would be unable to get over the fact that the woman I was with had formerly been a man.

[Ele'ill]

Thread closed.