Red, as colour of Communism, why?

[Catillina]

Why is the colour of communism red? Is it an allusion to blood(during the Revolution?)

Thanks Comrades

Catilina

[Muzk]

The blood shed by the working class over decades of oppression, exploitation and murder.

[ContrarianLemming]

Correct^ is represents violent revolution.

The black of anarchism meanwhile represents the mourning of dead workers along with the negation of nation state flags (most flags are colorful, thus the black flag is the anti flag)

While capitalism is represented by yellow because yellow = gold, the traditional unit of exchange in a free market, and the symbol of greed.

[ComradeOm]

No one knows. There are plenty of theories of course (some of the more fanciful ones being mentioned above) but there is probably no one reason. Red as a colour featured prominently during the French Revolution* and may have been a historical flag of rebellion (ironically, it was also the flag of martial law) but it was only during the Revolutions of 1848 that the red flag first because markedly associated with socialism and social revolution

The black flag is much younger, being adopted by anarchists in the 1880s or so in order to disassociate themselves from the socialists

* If the red flag does refer to the blood of the workers then it almost certainly refers to a specific incident during this period rather than "decades of oppression, exploitation and murder"

[bricolage]

The black flag is much younger, being adopted by anarchists in the 1880s or so in order to disassociate themselves from the socialists

There's an interesting quote from Louise Michel in her 1883 trial related to this;

We carried the black flag because the demonstration was to be absolutely peaceful, and the black flag is the flag of strikes and the flag of those that are hungry. Could we have carried any other flag? The red flag is nailed up in the cemeteries, and we should take it only when we can protect it. Well, we couldn't do that. I have told before and now I repeat: it was an essentially peaceful demonstration.
I've always read 'in the cemeteries' as (primarily) Pere Lachaise.

[Muzk]

* If the red flag does refer to the blood of the workers then it almost certainly refers to a specific incident during this period rather than "decades of oppression, exploitation and murder"
Because there were no decades of oppression, exploitation and murder? Ha-ha! Show them online.




It was also used by Garibaldi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Garibaldi)'s camicie rosse (redshirts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshirts_%28military_history%29)) in the Italian Risorgimento (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risorgimento), and taken up by Leftist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics) and generally revolutionary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary) groups, while the white (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White) of legitimist Bourbon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Bourbon) partisans became associated with pre-World War I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I) conservatives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism). This relates to the term "Blood of the workers", representing the suffering of the proletariat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletariat). For instance the Civil War in Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War) and the Civil War in Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_War_in_Finland) were fought between the Red Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army) and various White Armies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Armies).

If you don't like wikipedia:


The Red field is symbolism of the blood that has been spilt by workers the world over in the fight for their emancipation, and was directly inherited from the red banner flown at the Paris Commune; the original and hitherto “base” symbol of a worker’s government flag.


The five pointed star[...] It was for this reason that Marx and Engels, as radical humanists, were attracted to the symbol. They made it red to signify the blood lost in struggle, and to show that all humans have the same blood (ancestry) regardless of race, gender, or class. ......

and nothing else

/thread

[RedPaladin]

The well-known song "The Red Flag" probably explain this.


The people's flag is deepest red, It shrouded oft our martyred dead, And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold, Their hearts' blood dyed its every fold.
And White, as the colour of conter Communism Revolution, what does this refer to?

[ComradeOm]

If you don't like wikipedia...... you can read another random website! When did people learn to uncritically accept everything that was written on the internet? As I said, there are plenty of theories (same with the red star) but anyone trying to pin down one conclusive cause is a fool. There probably isn't even one


And White, as the colour of conter Communism Revolution, what does this refer to? Originally the Bourbon monarchy. But this illustrates the problem with trying to give these flags a meaning that they don't have. White was derived from the pre-revolutionary French monarchy but this historical baggage has long been forgotten and now 'white' refers to general reaction or counter-revolution. Similarly, the red flag was once adopted for a specific reason (probably during the French Revolution) but has now taken on a meaning of its own. The original circumstances are vague at best but we can pinpoint the date (25 Feb 1848) when it came to symbolise socialist revolution

Which is why a song written in the 1880s (IIRC) is not the most helpful with trying to pin down the flag's origins

[Comrade Gwydion]

Originally the Bourbon monarchy. But this illustrates the problem with trying to give these flags a meaning that they don't have. White was derived from the pre-revolutionary French monarchy but this historical baggage has long been forgotten and now 'white' refers to general reaction or counter-revolution.

I think it's even older. According to legend, it was Jean of Arc who adopted the white flag, and she did so because it was the colour of the virgin mary (and by extend, the colour of Christianity). I think the association with purity is old, but the association with puritanism and Christianity is what does it for most reactionairy's, rather than the specific Bourbon Monarchy (White with fleur-de-lis, if I'm not mistaken?).

Also, in many parts of Afrika, White is a symbol for death. Though that might just be a coincidence;)




(Actually, it's because dead bodies turn pale >.<)

[RedPaladin]

The white flag also has a meaning of surrender, doesn't it?

[Comrade Gwydion]

The white flag also has a meaning of surrender, doesn't it?

Yes.... I don't know where that meaning comes from..... I should google that ;)

[ComradeOm]

I think it's even older. According to legend, it was Jean of Arc who adopted the white flag, and she did so because it was the colour of the virgin mary (and by extend, the colour of Christianity). I think the association with purity is old, but the association with puritanism and Christianity is what does it for most reactionairy's, rather than the specific Bourbon Monarchy (White with fleur-de-lis, if I'm not mistaken?)Could well be, this is the problem with trying to trace the origins of a flag/symbol. In terms of the specific reaction to revolutionary fervour in 19th C I would say that the ancien regime connection was probably key but, as I note above, you're right in it certainly does not have that particular association any more

So in 19th C France you have these repeated clashes over flags (cockades leading to the Tricolore; re-imposition of Bourbon white; clash between Tricolore and red flag in 1848; the latter's adoption by the Commune; demands of the comte de Chambord; and symbolism of Free and Vichy France) in which the flags have (generally) concrete meanings and origins. Take them out of this context however and much of the original meaning is lost. So it becomes a matter for individuals (or parties or movements) to write their own histories and meanings into what has become a symbol first and foremost. Hence the proliferation of theories

[Comrade Gwydion]

Also, I notice, the Taliban have also used the White Flag as their flag (along with several other dynasties)

[ContrarianLemming]

The well-known song "The Red Flag" probably explain this.

And White, as the colour of conter Communism Revolution, what does this refer to?

white = purity, a common theme in monarchy

[Die Neue Zeit]

Surprisingly, the Paris Commune flew a red-and-white flag. I wonder how much it resembled the Polish or Swiss flags.

White traditionally referred to religious authority or First Estate in various European states, with blue representing the monarch or Second Estate and red representing "the people" or Third Estate.

[Magón]

The Anarchist Black Flag, is also meant to be the opposite of what the White Flag (surrender meaning) means.

[Pretty Flaco]

I always thought that the black flag was based off of the pirate's black flag, meaning that they would fight to the death.

[Magón]

I always thought that the black flag was based off of the pirate's black flag, meaning that they would fight to the death.

Yeah, no surrender. :thumbup1:

[Pretty Flaco]

Yeah, no surrender. :thumbup1:
Yeah, I wrote that before I read your comment. lol

[28350]

It's pretty.