Its not JUST unions or parties

[RGacky3]

I call myself a syndicalist, but its not because I think that unions are the only way to revolution, I believe they are going to be a huge factor, but not the only one by all means.

You have forclosure resistance, peasent movements, indigenous movements, human rights groups, religious ethics groups, anti-racist groups, tennants groups, community groups, immigrant groups, solidarity groups, and yes, political parties and factions within those.

In the United States unions are getting stronger, but still the biggest win for the capitalist and the biggest loss for the working class is the finance market, so maybe fighting against credit usury and forclosures might be one way to go, also fighting against banks running loans for schools and essencially running everything.

In China you have mass-production and hugely exploited factory labor, in Latin America and East Asia theres many peasent movements.

Maybe Its self-evident, but we should'nt be thinking in the idea that there is only one way to revolution, Capitalism fights on many fronts, so should we.

[Ele'ill]

I'd also like to point out that only 7% of the american work force is unionized (a statistic I do not have a link for) but according to BLS- retail workers- who are not allowed to unionize- whose employers are anti-union- make up about 4.5 million workers in the United States (2008).

How many workers simply cannot unionize without running the risk of being fired?- In a way, this is good news.

I also want to point out that environmental movements also contribute. :D

[#FF0000]

Also want to point out how shitty unions usually are. Not to say that they haven't and can't do great things for workers in the short term (job security, benefits, pay), but tons of them are corrupt as hell and are frankly there more for the bosses than for the workers.

[Ele'ill]

Also want to point out how shitty unions usually are. Not to say that they haven't and can't do great things for workers in the short term (job security, benefits, pay), but tons of them are corrupt as hell and are frankly there more for the bosses than for the workers.


What's the alternative?

[danyboy27]

great topic gacky!

i for instance think that the market economy and the banks are hindering a lot of progress in north america.

what suck with the north american struggle is, how the fuck do you actually hurt/undermine the banks and the market?

[RGacky3]

There are lot of workers organizing without the major unions, there was one instance where workers organized as a human rights organization to avoid union laws, the IDEA of syndicalism does'nt mean you need a formal union.

That being said a lot of the big American unions still do good, but as was said before, a lot of them have almost become a wing of the buisiness class. So either you revolutionize them from within, or you organize without them, and there are otherways too, wildcat tactics.

[RGacky3]

great topic gacky!

i for instance think that the market economy and the banks are hindering a lot of progress in north america.

what suck with the north american struggle is, how the fuck do you actually hurt/undermine the banks and the market?

Well one way is what people are doing already, if your morgage payments end up meaning they are paying more than your house is worth, don't pay them, also forclosure resistance. I think debtees organizing would be a good thing, debt is a major way the working class in America and England are kept down, you gotta take out student loans, peope have morgages, many need to use credit cards for groceries, organizing to the point to where banks cannot make a profit from usery and to where the power shifts from the banks to the people would be one thing.

[danyboy27]

I wonder if some kind of alternate banking system would affect the current industry?

Some kind of no nonsense worker bank that will use the profit made from monthly service cost to give mopney to allow worker to take back the mean of production, stuff like that.

[Bud Struggle]

I wonder if some kind of alternate banking system would affect the current industry?

Some kind of no nonsense worker bank that will use the profit made from monthly service cost to give mopney to allow worker to take back the mean of production, stuff like that.

Actually in it's day when it was founded the Bank of America was something like that. (Now it's just another giant bank since it was bought out by Nations Bank.)

[#FF0000]

What's the alternative?

That's a good question, but I think labor unions today are sort of a dead-end.

[danyboy27]

well, i just found out about ALBA, an alternative to the IMF and the world bank developped by south american countries.

Personally i wouldnt mind transfering my money into a ALBA account, i dont really care about interrest rate, i just want to put my money somewhere safe, and somewhere it wont be used to exploit other people.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

When it comes to being fired for unionising, striking etc, it is prudent for working-class activists to judge the situation correctly.

Examples I'd point to are the Chinese labour struggles (which you can find in the workers' struggles forum), whole factories can just suddenly stop work and get away with it whilst others would all be fired.

This is why different tactics need to be adopted instead of the universal ones, I mean we should always be looking to new and improved tactics based on our immediate conditions. I for one am organizing around unemployment issues by drawing in all worker elements, security guards at the welfare institutions - who are actually VERY receptive to class struggle advice and chat, welfare workers - who have gone on different strikes including a refusal strike whereby they deliberately allowed welfare claims to be put on the system, without exception, etc.

Now, in the past welfare claimants have been targeted in this country, you might recall how Thatcher used the welfare state as an instrument to wield against the working-class, by starving the miners back to work. This still can happen, as do redundancies that mean a worker goes for weeks without any pay for being "fired" even when they did nothing wrong, or they were racially targeted etc.

However, direct action where workers demanded of managers that they re-assess welfare claims has been a resounding success, as has unity between JobCentre workers, security guards and private companies' workers (private companies hired to get unemployed people in a job).

You can imagine that the wrong actions could involve police beating unemployed workers, security being forced to get involved, with jobcentre workers acting as witnesses to someone going down for a crime, but if you play your cards right, actually, what can seem like a tough, uphill struggle can go surprisingly well.

Really, can you imagine being part of the various unions' that exist here and their unemployed section? What I describe above wouldn't even be imaginable, let's have no illusions here, unions can increase pay by using lawyers and that junk for some workers, but for the majority they will mostly get in the way, so they are thereby mostly useless.

[RGacky3]

you got local credit unions.

[danyboy27]

you got local credit unions.

humm, really?

[Conquer or Die]

I think a conspiratorial, patriotic treason organization will be needed to foment any sort of revolution in America. Democratically it will not happen. America will go to war before revolution happens.

The Unions are uninterested in militant economic reform. They are interested in benefits without responsibilities. The unions should be directed towards seizing all ownership of workplace with absolutely no conception of improving wages.

[danyboy27]

I think a conspiratorial, patriotic treason organization will be needed to foment any sort of revolution in America. Democratically it will not happen. America will go to war before revolution happens.

The Unions are uninterested in militant economic reform. They are interested in benefits without responsibilities. The unions should be directed towards seizing all ownership of workplace with absolutely no conception of improving wages.

like gacky mentionned, in place like america, the main target is the market and banking industry, wall street, bank of america, they are the one who control everything.

movement within america that would give services that bank does without participating to the actual system would really fuck shit up for the financial institution of the us.

no explosion, no shot fired.

[Conquer or Die]

like gacky mentionned, in place like america, the main target is the market and banking industry, wall street, bank of america, they are the one who control everything.

movement within america that would give services that bank does without participating to the actual system would really fuck shit up for the financial institution of the us.

no explosion, no shot fired.

Incorrect; the economic powerbase in America is transportation and agriculture. When those are owned by labor everything else necessarily acquiesces.

We can cancel all debt. No problem.

The only wildcard is the military complex.

[RGacky3]

Incorrect; the economic powerbase in America is transportation and agriculture. When those are owned by labor everything else necessarily acquiesces.

I don't know what you mean by the economic powerbase, if your talking in terms of dollars, then no, I'm sorry its the capital markets and the finance institutions. I don't know in what terms your talking about, but I'm going by dollars.


The Unions are uninterested in militant economic reform. They are interested in benefits without responsibilities. The unions should be directed towards seizing all ownership of workplace with absolutely no conception of improving wages.

The Unions? THe Unions ARE the workers, those who vote for them, and many of them are becoming more and more militant. Benefits without responsibilities?? What are you talking about, what does that mean, you do realize labor does all the .... well .... labor.

[Conquer or Die]

I don't know what you mean by the economic powerbase, if your talking in terms of dollars, then no, I'm sorry its the capital markets and the finance institutions. I don't know in what terms your talking about, but I'm going by dollars.

We are talking about liberating America. Because of this we are not necessarily talking about non-value money such as dollars or gold or means of exchange.

Control the transportation industry and you control all industry. Control Agriculture and you control the means not to starve. Whence these are controlled by labor there is no other option that the ruling class has besides the military.




The Unions? THe Unions ARE the workers, those who vote for them, and many of them are becoming more and more militant. Benefits without responsibilities?? What are you talking about, what does that mean, you do realize labor does all the .... well .... labor.

Yes, but pining for higher wages is only an approximation of socialist control. Socialist control will occur when labor itself is in control. The boss is subordinate, so taking a few of his dollars while he still retains control is a minor victory, and can have disastrous consequences (as seen by the automotive industry in the US).

[RGacky3]

We are talking about liberating America. Because of this we are not necessarily talking about non-value money such as dollars or gold or means of exchange.

Control the transportation industry and you control all industry. Control Agriculture and you control the means not to starve. Whence these are controlled by labor there is no other option that the ruling class has besides the military.

Agriculture not really, because that can be out sourced (they don't want to do it but its possible), transportation yeah, but that alone won't revolutionize the system, (it will just make really powerful teamsters), The REAL powerbase is finance capital, the transportaion may be a weak spot for them, but their money makers (and power makers) are finance capital.

That is also what they are using to screw the working class the most (which is why we should worry about that).


Yes, but pining for higher wages is only an approximation of socialist control. Socialist control will occur when labor itself is in control. The boss is subordinate, so taking a few of his dollars while he still retains control is a minor victory, and can have disastrous consequences (as seen by the automotive industry in the US).

Pining for higher wages its not just pining for higher wages, its wages that the boss would NOT have given were it just his choice, in essense we are shifting power slowly. As far as the automotive industry, the unions were class collaborators, they got their workers good deals, but it was generally always on management terms.

But the failure of the US auto industry has nothing to do with the unions.