People racist against themselves?

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I ran into a very bizarre situation today, I was at a party today and there was a girl there that I had no idea was racist but the thing is she is racist against her own race! She's Mexican and was telling me how she better not catch her son with anymore "trampy beaners that are probably here illegally" and that prompted me to ask what the hell was wrong with Mexicans seeing as she was one. She told me that her dad taught her not to ever get involved with Mexicans because they were lazy and would not get her anywhere. And now she's passing this onto her son, which I find immensely disturbing.

The wider issue here is how people teach themselves to be racist against their own race because it supposedly does not benefit them economically to be connected with them, how capitalism can make people racist against themselves because they think a certain race is impoverished(making them lesser). I'm still trying to grasp how fucked you have to be in the head to be racist but being racist against yourself takes it to a whole new level.

I've also seen this type of behavior amongst many black people I hang out with although it's a little more subtle, jokes about Africans being poor, some African languages(clicking noises,etc), about AIDS, and stuff like that. I find myself in a difficult situation because it's hard for me to say "hey that's kind of racist you know" when I know the response will be " I'm X race".

How the hell do you even handle something like that?

[blake 3:17]

It's a really complicated question or set of questions/issues. Through my paid work experience I have found immigrants to be most the vocally anti-immigrant. In some cases it's internalized racism, in some cases a practical defence against being immigrant bashed, in some cases an appeal to my Whiteness and presumed xenophobia.

How a person handles it really depends on the situation and what kind of dialogue and relationship you have with a person or group of people. I was loored last year when a young Black woman I worked with told me she had voted Conservative. I had a bit of an internal freak out, but then realized that I didn't have anything much better on offer. (I'd voted Green as a protest vote (and to be fair her Conservative vote was a protest too (neither had any any chance of winning))).

[Stand Your Ground]

I had a similar situation, it wasn't racist though, it was sexist. A girl I work with was telling me she likes to wear shirts that expose as much cleavage as possible to try to get more tips from male customers. It was sexist against herself as well as the male customers.

[Aesop]

How a person handles it really depends on the situation and what kind of dialogue and relationship you have with a person or group of people. I was loored last year when a young Black woman I worked with told me she had voted Conservative. I had a bit of an internal freak out, but then realized that I didn't have anything much better on offer. (I'd voted Green as a protest vote (and to be fair her Conservative vote was a protest too (neither had any any chance of winning))).

Why is it that if a black young women voted conservative, they are seen as being racist to themselves?

[Hiratsuka]

Yes, it's quite real, but a black person voting conservative and a woman selling her sex appeal do not strike me as examples. Erotic entertainment in general is not morally reprehensible.

[The Red Next Door]

I had the same deal with a friend of mine, she made some comment and then ask me, was she being racist towards herself, i told her a little. people can say i am racist towards my own racist because I don't like people who portray the stereotypes of African Americans but I don't like people who do portray stereotypes of other groups in general. but i am sort of calming that down since that would count as being an elitist liberal.

[Invincible Summer]

I used to be racist towards Chinese people, specifically "hongers" or people from Hong Kong, pretty much all throughout high school. I said really terrible things and pretty much instigated fights and whatnot because I felt that they were "stupid chinks who come to this country and don't even try to speak english." It disgusts me to think that I used to be supremely bigoted against my own race.

Why was I this way? I'm not sure. Being 3rd generation Chinese-Canadian perhaps I felt alienated from both the "white kids" and the "Chinese kids," as both groups sort of saw me as an "Other." But the Chinese kids were much more vocal about their Othering of me, especially since I didn't speak Chinese. Plus, they were all really rich and spoiled and flaunted their wealth constantly.

I hated how these people were so rich and got through life so easily, so it could be partially misguided class consciousness. I also hated how they acted as this huge caricature for Chinese people, as they were the majority in our school. I didn't want to be represented by them so I took the extreme way of showing my difference.

I'm so goddamn ashamed of that part of my life. When I went to university I was glad to be done with that and meet people that didn't know that part of me. But since I didn't move out of town, I still sometimes see people who do know my self-hating, racist past, and I keep my head down and scurry away to not be seen. It's terrible.

I know this post is more a personal rant than helping solve the problem of self-hating people, but I really had to get it off my chest.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I think the only times I've said anything racist towards myself was more of a sarcastic mockery of racism. I tend to mock bigots at times because someone needs to laugh at their stupidity.

[9]

I had a similar situation, it wasn't racist though, it was sexist. A girl I work with was telling me she likes to wear shirts that expose as much cleavage as possible to try to get more tips from male customers. It was sexist against herself as well as the male customers.

How on earth is this sexist, let alone "sexist against the male customers"? I work as a waitress at a diner on the weekends, and it's the reality; it works, and anyone who has ever worked in these positions will tell you the same thing.

[9]

On the topic of the thread, though, there is nothing really surprising about people from socially oppressed groups being susceptible to the same ruling class ideas and prejudices as everyone else.

[BuddhaInBabylon]

this is a really great thread with a lot of really interesting concepts to be examined. ...
Basta's courage in describing his racist past is inspiring. I was raised in poor, white, redneck, small town environs where purjorative expletives are common. As a child, i knew it was offensive and didn't like the idea of hurting anyones feelings, but at the risk of outcasting oneself, you assimilate the behaviors of others.
There were acres and acres of apple orchards where i lived. Migrant workers came every summer to pick the apples and cherries and all other sorts of fruit. I never once met one as a kid, but enough racism and xenophobia had been instilled in me that a distrust for "mexicans" carried over until adolescence when i finally realized the inherent stupidity of what i had been conditioned into believing.
Yet now, i have a sort of intolerance for white people. Being raised poor, in the country, backward and what not, i have a disdain for rich white suburbanite young men who have no idea what it is to go without, or have had to work very hard to get even the smallest of things for yourself. And also, i find, the sort of conditioned xenophobia and racism that goes unchallenged among many whites, to be reprehensible.
Still further, the fact that the majority of the 1 percenters and capitalist whores that are destroying this world and exploiting people by the billions, are white males, makes me ashamed to be white. Not the color of my skin, not that at all, but the idea that a non white could conceivabley look at me and associate my image with concepts of exploitation and greed makes me feel very uneasy deep down inside. I am conscious of a certain degree of compensation for this in my behavior. in the workplace and in other public settings, i tend to distance myself from young white males. I find more common ground elsewhere anyways, but i am aware of the reasons for my initial reluctance to associate with other young whites.
Unless they are blatantly revolutionary, in which case i see no skin color or culture at all.
Sorry for the rant.

[leftace53]

I've been avoiding this thread as it hits close to home.

Many times, it comes off as if I'm racist against my own race (I have a bone to pick with the whole phrase of "own race" but thats a different story), but its not so much that I'm racist (I'm a commie ya know), but I have spent a few years being quite depressed and a lot of the depression was because of forms of oppression I have faced due to being the race that I am. Sometimes I took it out on individuals of my race because they were happy and proud of where they came from, where I could only see the oppressive cultural norms and institutionalized oppression I had faced. I also didn't generally have much in common with other children of the same race as me, and was disgusted by their sole ambition of becoming rich, and vastly chauvanistic attitudes (this is of course only my experience with the individuals I have met of the same race as me), which of course ostracized me in the "brown" community.

Regardless, I have gotten over the dislike of individual people of my race, since I realize that many people around me are happier than me, and its worthless to ask "why can't I be that happy?" (and hell, what do I really know of their problems, they could be as depressed as I am). I do however have a special place of resentment for the institutions and norms of the country of my origin, and that I feel can never change due to the direct effect they have had on me.

[hobo8675309]

im mostly white but 1/4 persian and 1/8 indian (i mean like "mountain bear spirit stuff indian", not like, ya know, "dot indian"), and yet i still believe asians a better. okay, i kid, i kid, i do not take a mainstream approach to racism. rather than completely ignore racial stereotypes and pretend nobody believes them, people of every race need to take this as constructive criticism and try to focus on doing the opposite of the stereotype- a jew who was never cheap in the first place giving loads to charity to make a good impression for his entire race would be an example, another would be a previously industrious hispanic maximizing his potential to work extra hours. this may just be the only way to convince racists that they are wrong, because everything else we've tried has failed miserably! some stereotypes are beyong control- white people are ugly, asians have small penises- but these things that cannot be controlled should not be a matter of concern anyway, and only a select few are moronic enough to judge a race because of such things.

[9]

im mostly white but 1/4 persian and 1/8 indian (i mean like "mountain bear spirit stuff indian", not like, ya know, "dot indian"), and yet i still believe asians a better. okay, i kid, i kid, i do not take a mainstream approach to racism. rather than completely ignore racial stereotypes and pretend nobody believes them, people of every race need to take this as constructive criticism and try to focus on doing the opposite of the stereotype- a jew who was never cheap in the first place giving loads to charity to make a good impression for his entire race would be an example, another would be a previously industrious hispanic maximizing his potential to work extra hours. this may just be the only way to convince racists that they are wrong, because everything else we've tried has failed miserably! some stereotypes are beyong control- white people are ugly, asians have small penises- but these things that cannot be controlled should not be a matter of concern anyway, and only a select few are moronic enough to judge a race because of such things.

:bored: oh wow

[black magick hustla]

How on earth is this sexist, let alone "sexist against the male customers"? I work as a waitress at a diner on the weekends, and it's the reality; it works, and anyone who has ever worked in these positions will tell you the same thing.

this is probably just me, but when i see waitresses that are hired guns, i.e. that i should tip them because they are eyecandy, it makes me less inclined to tip (although i almost always tip around the same, about 20-25 percent or if i had something cheap, i try to tip atleast two dollars.) maybe im gay? if i want to tip for titties i would go to strip club. especially when i see all the other guys hitting on the hot hired gun, i feel like, damn, i am glad i am not one of them.

[black magick hustla]

my fav. food place has almost exclusively gay dudes as waiters

[black magick hustla]

i make jokes about my heritage all the time

[9]

this is probably just me, but when i see waitresses that are hired guns, i.e. that i should tip them because they are eyecandy, it makes me less inclined to tip (although i almost always tip around the same, about 20-25 percent or if i had something cheap, i try to tip atleast two dollars.) maybe im gay? if i want to tip for titties i would go to strip club. especially when i see all the other guys hitting on the hot hired gun, i feel like, damn, i am glad i am not one of them.

IDK, I don't think its necessarily even the same sort of thing as a "hired gun", though, its more just that with almost any job where you collect tips, it is a basic rule of thumb if you're a female that you collect better tips if you wear lower-cut tops than if you're wearing like a trackjacket or a sweatshirt or something god i suddenly feel gross talking about this on revleft
Anyway, it isn't really relevant, it was just nonsensical to claim - as somebody claimed - that women who are aware of this fact and use it to their advantage (and, really, why wouldn't you, if you make a bigger tip?) are therefore "sexist".

[gorillafuck]

my fav. food place has almost exclusively gay dudes as waiters
maldoror, your comments always brighten my day.

I don't think it's a "hired gun" thing, because I'm pretty sure businesses don't make money from tips so I don't see how hiring busty women would make them more money.....

[Stand Your Ground]

How on earth is this sexist, let alone "sexist against the male customers"? I work as a waitress at a diner on the weekends, and it's the reality; it works, and anyone who has ever worked in these positions will tell you the same thing.
Wow. First off it's sexist against herself, I don't care if it 'works', she shouldn't have to reveal herself to be getting the money she should be getting reguardless. Secondly, she's urging all the male customers to gawk at her like an object, and finally it's sexist against the men because she assumes every guy that comes in is a sexist perv, as a non-sexist male I take offense to that, as I eat there myself.

[9]

Wow. First off it's sexist against herself, I don't care if it 'works', she shouldn't have to reveal herself to be getting the money she should be getting reguardless. Secondly, she's urging all the male customers to gawk at her like an object, and finally it's sexist against the men because she assumes every guy that comes in is a sexist perv, as a non-sexist male I take offense to that, as I eat there myself.

It isn't "sexist against herself". If you want to characterize the whole state of affairs as "sexist", then fine, but to suggest that individual women are the "sexists" for not being oblivious to reality is ridiculous.

[gorillafuck]

and finally it's sexist against the men because she assumes every guy that comes in is a sexist perv, as a non-sexist male I take offense to that, as I eat there myself.
No it's not. It assumes that she will get overall more tips if she wears low cut shirts, which apparently is true. It says nothing about "every guy that comes in".

[727Goon]

I had a similar situation, it wasn't racist though, it was sexist. A girl I work with was telling me she likes to wear shirts that expose as much cleavage as possible to try to get more tips from male customers. It was sexist against herself as well as the male customers.

I dont see how thats sexist at all.

[black magick hustla]

maldoror, your comments always brighten my day.

I don't think it's a "hired gun" thing, because I'm pretty sure businesses don't make money from tips so I don't see how hiring busty women would make them more money.....

are you kidding me. a lot of college town bars have hired guns. its part of the appeal of going to that bar. ive never seen a fat female waitress in this college town.

[Quail]

I dont see how thats sexist at all.

The fact that men give more tips to women wearing low-cut tops seems quite sexist to me. A woman shouldn't have to use her body to get more tips.

[black magick hustla]

the fact that workers have to sell their labour to survive is p. capitalist to me.

i dont get the outrage. people hire whores, go to strip clubs, pay 30 bucks for blow jobs, etcetera and you get worked up by some girl who gets some extra pocket cash by revealing what is above their nipples

[gorillafuck]

are you kidding me. a lot of college town bars have hired guns. its part of the appeal of going to that bar. ive never seen a fat female waitress in this college town.
That's a good point, yeah.


The fact that men give more tips to women wearing low-cut tops seems quite sexist to me. A woman shouldn't have to use her body to get more tips.
The situation itself is sexist but that female waitresses acknowledge the situation to get better tips isn't sexism from them in any way because as of right now it's reality.

[Quail]

The situation itself is sexist but that female waitresses acknowledge the situation to get better tips isn't sexism from them in any way because as of right now it's reality.

That is true. I suppose it's more sexism on the part of the men that give her more tips for wearing a low cut top that sexism on her part for using that to her advantage. But I do wish that women didn't have to use their bodies to get extra money. I appreciate that it's difficult to avoid this kind of subtle discrimination, but it makes me angry that it exists.

[Stand Your Ground]

It isn't "sexist against herself".
I don't see how it's not, she's using herself as an object rather than a person.

[9]

I don't see how it's not, she's using herself as an object rather than a person.

Are people employed, say, making blouses being used any more "as people" and any less "as objects"?

I think you are being a bit of a moralist.

[progressive_lefty]

I ran into a very bizarre situation today, I was at a party today and there was a girl there that I had no idea was racist but the thing is she is racist against her own race! She's Mexican and was telling me how she better not catch her son with anymore "trampy beaners that are probably here illegally" and that prompted me to ask what the hell was wrong with Mexicans seeing as she was one.

Sounds likes some brainwashing to me.
That mexican girl was probably quite privileged from a young age. Wealthy family, her parents won the lottery and actually managed to land a good job... So now that they're on the top, they want to criticise people, including their own.

I think that's quite common, people become wealthy and lose track of everything..

[Devrim]

are you kidding me. a lot of college town bars have hired guns. its part of the appeal of going to that bar. ive never seen a fat female waitress in this college town.

We don't have waitresses in Ankara. It is a man's job*.

Devrim

*Actually over the years I have seen a few, but it wouldn't make double figures, and I have spent a lot of time in bars.

Devrim

[Devrim]

On the topic of the thread, though, there is nothing really surprising about people from socially oppressed groups being susceptible to the same ruling class ideas and prejudices as everyone else.

I know a woman who understands Arabic, has relatives on the Syrian side of the boarder, and still comes out with all the typical Turkish anti-Arab prejudice.

Devrim

[Stand Your Ground]

Are people employed, say, making blouses being used any more "as people" and any less "as objects"?

I think you are being a bit of a moralist.
All I'm saying is that she shouldn't be revealing herself to be making the money she should be getting fully covered. She shouldn't be making herself an object.

[Hiratsuka]

Er, it's sexual gratification. That will never go away. Society typically tries to supresses female sexuality - and that's sexist - but heterosexual men paying more attention to an attractive female (through tips or whatever else) is normal. I try to treat each person I encounter with respect, but I probably go out of my way for someone whose looks I'm drawn towards.

Women can be sexist against themselves, but recognizing their ability to attract men (or other women) is not one case.

[#FF0000]

All I'm saying is that she shouldn't be revealing herself to be making the money she should be getting fully covered. She shouldn't be making herself an object.

cept she already is sort of being used as an object because, you know, capitalism.

women wearing not-low-cut shirts doesn't make sexism go away~

[black magick hustla]

I know a woman who understands Arabic, has relatives on the Syrian side of the boarder, and still comes out with all the typical Turkish anti-Arab prejudice.

Devrim


all my family in the other side of the ocean hate on arabs. they consider themselves berber, not arab. tbh the distinction to me is worthless because in this part of town we are seen as the same thing, so i always say im arab.

[this is an invasion]

Isn't it racist to assume that because someone has a certain skin color, they are going to think, feel, or identify a certain way?

Anyway, there are some really stupid people out there that can't be reached in anyway possible.

[Imposter Marxist]

In 6th grade I used to call people "Dirty commies", mostly as jokes, but still. If young me only knew :laugh:

[9]

In 6th grade I used to call people "Dirty commies", mostly as jokes, but still.

Er... this isn't exactly racism, you know.


All I'm saying is that she shouldn't be revealing herself to be making the money she should be getting fully covered. She shouldn't be making herself an object.
My point, though, is why is this really any different from the way everybody else 'makes themselves an object' to earn a living. Leaving aside moralism for just a moment here, it really isn't. I can think of tons of jobs that are dehumanizing - much moreso than waiting tables in a scoop-neck top. So I really don't see why this should be regarded any differently.

[Devrim]

All I'm saying is that she shouldn't be revealing herself to be making the money she should be getting fully covered. She shouldn't be making herself an object.

I find it really offensive that people are moralising about how people in a very poorly paid job are forced to behave to earn a little more money.

Devrim

[counterblast]

im mostly white but 1/4 persian and 1/8 indian (i mean like "mountain bear spirit stuff indian", not like, ya know, "dot indian"), and yet i still believe asians a better. okay, i kid, i kid, i do not take a mainstream approach to racism. rather than completely ignore racial stereotypes and pretend nobody believes them, people of every race need to take this as constructive criticism and try to focus on doing the opposite of the stereotype- a jew who was never cheap in the first place giving loads to charity to make a good impression for his entire race would be an example, another would be a previously industrious hispanic maximizing his potential to work extra hours. this may just be the only way to convince racists that they are wrong, because everything else we've tried has failed miserably! some stereotypes are beyong control- white people are ugly, asians have small penises- but these things that cannot be controlled should not be a matter of concern anyway, and only a select few are moronic enough to judge a race because of such things.

Get the fuck out.

[counterblast]

All I'm saying is that she shouldn't be revealing herself to be making the money she should be getting fully covered. She shouldn't be making herself an object.

If other people want to objectify me, thats their fucking problem. Blame the objectifyer, not the objectee.

You seem to think that if I merely "cover" myself, that objectification stops. But the Patriarchy doesn't go away just because I wear a modest dress or even a full fucking burka.

I'm going to be objectified regardless; so I'm really unsure why you think I shouldn't take money from sexist assholes in the process.

Your victim-blaming logic reminds me a lot of a conversation I had with a racist white communist recently, who claimed "People of color shouldn't be taking food stamps because it reinforces racial stereotypes. Plus it just makes them more reliant on the state."

But what this claim overlooks, as does your analysis, is that Capitalism, white supremacy, and the Patriarchy will all continue to exist irregardless of the lifestyle choices of the oppressed. If you want to offer solutions -- offer tangible ones.

Maybe next time some sexist asshole is lusting after you like you're a piece of property -- don't blame yourself or wonder whether you should button up your shirt to divert his stares. Tell him to stop, and if he doesn't -- castrate the fucker. Or if you'd rather, find a way to exploit the Patriarchy for your survival. Either way, you're going to gain a lot more than you would with self-hate and conforming to the standards that oppress you to begin with.

[Stand Your Ground]

I find it really offensive that people are moralising about how people in a very poorly paid job are forced to behave to earn a little more money.

Devrim
I find it offensive that people on here support her actions of feeding the sexists. The fire won't stop burning if you keep putting wood on it.

[counterblast]

I find it offensive that people on here support her actions of feeding the sexists. The fire won't stop burning if you keep putting wood on it.

And this metaphorical fire (ie: Patriarchy) will magically be put out by conforming to its whims?

What sense does that make?

[9]

I find it offensive that people on here support her actions of feeding the sexists. The fire won't stop burning if you keep putting wood on it.

It's the same logic as blaming workers for having jobs at all because they're "feeding the capitalists". Do you do that as well? At least you would be consistent.

[gorillafuck]

I find it offensive that people on here support her actions of feeding the sexists. The fire won't stop burning if you keep putting wood on it.
As of now, if she doesn't she'll freeze.

[Devrim]

I find it offensive that people on here support her actions of feeding the sexists. The fire won't stop burning if you keep putting wood on it.

There is not really a lot to say about this. There are people who call themselves socialists who try to look at thing from the perspective of the working class. There are others who call themselves socialists who end up blaming workers for everything.

It is quite obvious which type you are.

Devrim

[Stand Your Ground]

Wow. I really can't believe the fucking shit I'm hearing on here. You people want sexism to end, yet when someone is feeding into it, you go along with it. Disgusting.

There's a difference between working for a living and showing yourself off for a living, she shouldn't be willing to degrade herself to get what she needs to survive.

[Reznov]

I'm still trying to grasp how fucked you have to be in the head to be racist but being racist against yourself takes it to a whole new level.

I've also seen this type of behavior amongst many black people I hang out with although it's a little more subtle, jokes about Africans being poor, some African languages(clicking noises,etc), about AIDS, and stuff like that. I find myself in a difficult situation because it's hard for me to say "hey that's kind of racist you know" when I know the response will be " I'm X race".

How the hell do you even handle something like that?

Grow a pair and stop being such a sensitive pussy son of a *****? I mean, its called a sense of humor. My Mom is Cuban and my Dad is White and I always make Cuban jokes and White ones. Doesn't mean the people making these jokes hates themselves.

(Lmfao, I just had to say sensitive pussy son of a *****, it just cracks me up :laugh:)

[Adi Shankara]

Russians are real self-depricating, as are polish people and Ukranians; we love to insult ourselves and make fun of our national stereotypes, and to crack jokes about it. To get an idea of what that's like, think of the barbershop scene in "Gran Torino".

[Devrim]

Wow. I really can't believe the fucking shit I'm hearing on here. You people want sexism to end, yet when someone is feeding into it, you go along with it. Disgusting.

Because of course the thing that feeds sexism in society is waitresses wearing low cut tops.


There's a difference between working for a living and showing yourself off for a living,

Do you think that topless barmaids, or even strippers cease to be workers because they 'show themselves off'. You sound like the religious right now.

Devrim

[Stand Your Ground]

Because of course the thing that feeds sexism in society is waitresses wearing low cut tops.



Do you think that topless barmaids, or even strippers cease to be workers because they 'show themselves off'. You sound like the religious right now.

Devrim
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Sexism is a huge problem with different areas being a larger portion of the problem than others, but still small portions like the one I speak of, is still a problem and must be dealt with. We must combat sexism on all levels.

There's a difference in doing it because you like to, and doing it for money. If you do it because you like, the money is just a bonus. If you do it because you need the money, capitalism is causing self exploitation that that person wouldn't degrade themselves to if they had another choice. Am I still misunderstood?

[Devrim]

There's a difference in doing it because you like to, and doing it for money. If you do it because you like, the money is just a bonus. If you do it because you need the money, capitalism is causing self exploitation that that person wouldn't degrade themselves to if they had another choice. Am I still misunderstood?

I think I have met three people in my life who liked their work*. Virtually everybody does it for the money.

Devrim

*One was a primary school teacher another a paediatric cardiologist, and one a professional footballer.

[Stand Your Ground]

I think I have met three people in my life who liked their work*. Virtually everybody does it for the money.

Devrim

*One was a primary school teacher another a paediatric cardiologist, and one a professional footballer.
My girlfriend works with a housekeeper who part times as a stripper, she likes it because of the attention. :rolleyes:

[Tenka]

Russians are real self-depricating, as are polish people and Ukranians;

How many Polish people do you know? The only openly Polish people I've met on the internet have been Nationalistic to the point of looking like neo-nazis. I've met quite a few, too...

[Lolshevik]

I used to be pretty down about my race actually. tried to imitate white culture etc; then I realized there was no such thing as white culture. some black people mock others who they perceive as "acting white", on the other hand some try to imitate europeans and uncle tom it up.

A healthy dose of black pride changed that for me. internationalism made it even better. :D

[9]

My girlfriend works with a housekeeper who part times as a stripper, she likes it because of the attention. :rolleyes:

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make with this. You can find an anecdote to support any argument. The point is that most people who have to sell their labor power to survive don't have the luxury to really choose what sort of work they do. You take what is available to you, whatever that entails. And the last thing anybody needs is to be chastized and shamed for being in the situation they are in, when they don't have much of a choice in the matter to begin with. Incidentally, this is exactly what the bosses and their mouthpieces do.

[Stand Your Ground]

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make with this. You can find an anecdote to support any argument. The point is that most people who have to sell their labor power to survive don't have the luxury to really choose what sort of work they do. You take what is available to you, whatever that entails. And the last thing anybody needs is to be chastized and shamed for being in the situation they are in, when they don't have much of a choice in the matter to begin with. Incidentally, this is exactly what the bosses and their mouthpieces do.
I was saying there's a difference in working and revealing yourself because you like to, and doing it purely for money. I was just saying that it was fucked up for capitalism for (somewhat) forcing people to do things they don't want to.

I don't even know why she does that really. She has 2 full time jobs, and a husband with a full time job. I have a very small part time job and my girlfriend has a full time job and we pay the bills just fine. I know she has her own side of the story, which is none of my business really, the only explanation I can think is money, which is sad really.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

All I'm saying is that she shouldn't be revealing herself to be making the money she should be getting fully covered. She shouldn't be making herself an object.

Who are you to make a judgement of her use of her right to self determination?

[Adi Shankara]

How many Polish people do you know? The only openly Polish people I've met on the internet have been Nationalistic to the point of looking like neo-nazis. I've met quite a few, too...

I knew a bunch in West Sacramento, which is a heavily Eastern European settlement in California. if you're Ukranian, Russian, Polish, or Belorussian, and are heading to the West Coast, you either end up in West LA, Folsom, San San Francisco, or West Sacramento.

[Stand Your Ground]

Who are you to make a judgement of her use of her right to self determination?
Who's anyone to say anything about anything?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Who's anyone to say anything about anything?
Well me, since I'm a goddess.

But seriously, nobody.

[Stand Your Ground]

Well me, since I'm a goddess.

But seriously, nobody.
Well then should everyone remain silent? About everything?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Well then should everyone remain silent? About everything?
Where it involves judging someone about using their right to self determination. How some woman presents herself is included in her right to self determination.

[gorillafuck]

Well me, since I'm a goddess.

But seriously, nobody.
You can say whatever you want about people. There's a difference between talking and being taken seriously.

(though the above does not apply to fascists, obviously:lol:)

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

You can say whatever you want about people. There's a difference between talking and being taken seriously.

(though the above does not apply to fascists, obviously:lol:)
It doesn't change the fact that I am a goddess.

[IllicitPopsicle]

AntiRacistFaction:

Honestly, to me this sounds like mindless "feminist" lifestylism talking. (Anecdote alert) I know a girl in the local punk scene who works as a waitress at Pizza Hut, of all places. She's told me the same story as some of the above posters: she shows a little cleavage because otherwise she wouldn't make as much money, and anyone who's worked a min. wage job knows that hourly pay alone isn't enough to breathe off of, much less live. You either work multiple jobs or one that has the option of getting tips, or you try to go to school and get a degree (although that's quickly starting to slip away with all the tuition hikes going on) and hope you can enter a company that pays a bit more than Wal-mart.

It's a harsh fact of life: capitalism exploits its workers. It's the reason we're all leftists. We want to change that.

[GreenCommunism]

i am the reincarnation of jesus christ.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

i am the reincarnation of jesus christ.
Jesus is overrated.

[GreenCommunism]

i disagree and i am right because i am jesus christ!


this is probably just me, but when i see waitresses that are hired guns, i.e. that i should tip them because they are eyecandy, it makes me less inclined to tip (although i almost always tip around the same, about 20-25 percent or if i had something cheap, i try to tip atleast two dollars.) maybe im gay? if i want to tip for titties i would go to strip club. especially when i see all the other guys hitting on the hot hired gun, i feel like, damn, i am glad i am not one of them.

i kind of agree with that, i hate being tricked in such a manner, though i would probably be a sucker if she was both extra nice and cute . if she shows a cleavage i would probably understand she wears it for money and give her less.


Honestly, to me this sounds like mindless "feminist" lifestylism talking. (Anecdote alert) I know a girl in the local punk scene who works as a waitress at Pizza Hut, of all places. She's told me the same story as some of the above posters: she shows a little cleavage because otherwise she wouldn't make as much money, and anyone who's worked a min. wage job knows that hourly pay alone isn't enough to breathe off of, much less live. You either work multiple jobs or one that has the option of getting tips, or you try to go to school and get a degree (although that's quickly starting to slip away with all the tuition hikes going on) and hope you can enter a company that pays a bit more than Wal-mart.

It's a harsh fact of life: capitalism exploits its workers. It's the reason we're all leftists. We want to change that.

i used to be on you people's side at first but then i kinda changed my mind, if she does it, then it means in a way that this woman want to be considered an object or that it is normal,for example, she think that being paid more for wearing little cloth is acceptable or at least no big deal.

also , i am against prostitution,porn, and stripper bar, i thought this was alright, since i don't think wearing such a cleavage is that bad, you have to remember that woman wear this sort of clothing in bars and club anyway. but it still put the emphasis on her appearance rather than the service.

as for being sexist against men, i disagreed but then agreed again, since i stand firmly on the side of equality feminism and androgyne is the prefered model to consider humanity, i would say she keeps patriarchy alive with such attitudes, the woman has to wear cleavage, the men is more wealthy thus tips more. i don't think she believe all men are pervert, i think she believes most of mens are or that a larger minority than woman are, and this kinda piss me off as a equality feminist.

[GreenCommunism]

Get the fuck out.
don't hate on him too much, he sounds young and naive, he doesn't understand nobody should be pressured to act differently than his stereotype since that is acknowledging said stereotype. he probably should have kept the jews out so no commie stab him in the throat. i wonder how many people scandalized by anti-semitism would actually get a gun and patrol synagogues if there was a new hitler in their country, but oh well.

[IllicitPopsicle]

i disagree and i am right because i am jesus christ!



i kind of agree with that, i hate being tricked in such a manner, though i would probably be a sucker if she was both extra nice and cute . if she shows a cleavage i would probably understand she wears it for money and give her less.



i used to be on you people's side at first but then i kinda changed my mind, if she does it, then it means in a way that this woman want to be considered an object or that it is normal,for example, she think that being paid more for wearing little cloth is acceptable or at least no big deal.

also , i am against prostitution,porn, and stripper bar, i thought this was alright, since i don't think wearing such a cleavage is that bad, you have to remember that woman wear this sort of clothing in bars and club anyway. but it still put the emphasis on her appearance rather than the service.

as for being sexist against men, i disagreed but then agreed again, since i stand firmly on the side of equality feminism and androgyne is the prefered model to consider humanity, i would say she keeps patriarchy alive with such attitudes, the woman has to wear cleavage, the men is more wealthy thus tips more. i don't think she believe all men are pervert, i think she believes most of mens are or that a larger minority than woman are, and this kinda piss me off as a equality feminist.

*Consults feminist manual*

Like I said. This shit definitely sucks. But it is endemic of capitalism.

[GreenCommunism]

yes i agree, it definitly suck, i don't like antiracistfaction's attitude toward that woman or so, but i understand his reasoning

and for the record, i meant in the biological sense that men are just as equally perverts as woman, i do recognize that sexy mens don't get tipped as much etc but i believe this is about social conditioning.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

and for the record, i meant in the biological sense that men are just as equally perverts as woman, i do recognize that sexy mens don't get tipped as much etc but i believe this is about social conditioning.
Uh, ever been to a gay bar?

[GreenCommunism]

Uh, ever been to a gay bar?

nope, gay bars have lesbians and gays don't they? regardless, social conditioning would affect them anyway. i am not sure if i suscribe to the idea that gays are actually men with woman brain, since some teacher told us this to make homosexuality more acceptable, wouldn't that be transexuality? i guess it could be a woman brain in a man's body who is alright with it, as opposed to a woman brain in a man's body who feels trapped in something she is not.

[Agnapostate]

I ran into a very bizarre situation today, I was at a party today and there was a girl there that I had no idea was racist but the thing is she is racist against her own race! She's Mexican and was telling me how she better not catch her son with anymore "trampy beaners that are probably here illegally" and that prompted me to ask what the hell was wrong with Mexicans seeing as she was one. She told me that her dad taught her not to ever get involved with Mexicans because they were lazy and would not get her anywhere. And now she's passing this onto her son, which I find immensely disturbing.

Stepping back a bit, there might be a simple explanation for this. Contrary to popular misconception, Mexicans are not a race. While Mexico has a national ethnic identity of “mestizaje” (mixture, meaning European-Indian mixture, stemming outward from Castilian-Aztec mixture), and while there are not necessarily sharp racial lines in the country, there is a color continuum that places the lighter-skinned population with more European features at the top of the social ladder, with status typically declining as levels of Amerindian genetic admixture rise. There is little biological difference between a lower-class rural “mestizo” and an “Indian” of the same economic station, but their respective personal ethnic identities may be dramatically different.

In addition to that, there is also a national schism between Mexicans and so-called Mexican-Americans (not really Mexicans, as mentioned, but I’ll call them Mexican-Americans for lack of a better term), with actual Mexican nationals in the U.S. addressed with the epithet “mojados,” which means “wets” (akin to “wetbacks,” essentially), and Mexican-Americans with the term “pochos,” which refers to the Anglicization and other U.S. cultural socializations that Mexican-Americans undergo. So she might be a Mexican-American (which seems likely if her dad told her not to get involved with Mexicans; how would she avoid getting involved with Mexicans if she’d been living in Mexico?), that has adopted this petty nationalistic attitude. The racial undertones are also present there in that Mexicans typically possess higher levels of Indian admixture than Mexican-Americans.



Grow a pair and stop being such a sensitive pussy son of a *****? I mean, its called a sense of humor. My Mom is Cuban and my Dad is White and I always make Cuban jokes and White ones.

Same thing. Unless you are from Cuba, you are not Cuban, and the majority of Cuban-Americans (meaning immigrants) are white.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

nope, gay bars have lesbians and gays don't they? regardless, social conditioning would affect them anyway. i am not sure if i suscribe to the idea that gays are actually men with woman brain, since some teacher told us this to make homosexuality more acceptable, wouldn't that be transexuality? i guess it could be a woman brain in a man's body who is alright with it, as opposed to a woman brain in a man's body who feels trapped in something she is not.
These days, there are all too many straight girls at gay bars. Gay bars and lesbian bars are separate things (I personally prefer lesbian bars) but I was referring to a man getting tipped the more revealing he gets, in that situation two words: Bar Tender.

[GreenCommunism]

Stepping back a bit, there might be a simple explanation for this. Contrary to popular misconception, Mexicans are not a race. While Mexico has a national ethnic identity of “mestizaje” (mixture, meaning European-Indian mixture, stemming outward from Castilian-Aztec mixture), and while there are not necessarily sharp racial lines in the country, there is a color continuum that places the lighter-skinned population with more European features at the top of the social ladder, with status typically declining as levels of Amerindian genetic admixture rise. There is little biological difference between a lower-class rural “mestizo” and an “Indian” of the same economic station, but their respective personal ethnic identities may be dramatically different.

there can be racism between ethnicities, as in sub-race or so. or even mixed race. when you say there is little biological difference, i guess that the corret term would be nationalism or xenophobia.

These days, there are all too many straight girls at gay bars. Gay bars and lesbian bars are separate things (I personally prefer lesbian bars) but I was referring to a man getting tipped the more revealing he gets, in that situation two words: Bar Tender.

i didn't know girls went there at all, don't tell guys too much, soon heterosexual guys will hit on heterosexual girls in gay bars and will destroy the whole point of the establishment :). but what i meant is that it isn't generalized in society.

[Stand Your Ground]

Where it involves judging someone about using their right to self determination. How some woman presents herself is included in her right to self determination.
I see what you are saying, I was just trying to make a point that capitalism makes people do things they normally wouldn't, as in exploiting themselves, I'm not trying to be an ass and say she can't do what she wants, I'm was just pointing it out that it happens.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I see what you are saying, I was just trying to make a point that capitalism makes people do things they normally wouldn't, as in exploiting themselves, I'm not trying to be an ass and say she can't do what she wants, I'm was just pointing it out that it happens.
Okay. I get that now.

[Stand Your Ground]

Okay. I get that now.
Ok thank you. :) Been waiting for someone to understand.

[Agnapostate]

there can be racism between ethnicities, as in sub-race or so. or even mixed race. when you say there is little biological difference, i guess that the corret term would be nationalism or xenophobia.

In that particular case. But in terms of Mexicans as a whole, it can quite easily be a manifestation of "racism," because they're a multi-racial national group.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

In that particular case. But in terms of Mexicans as a whole, it can quite easily be a manifestation of "racism," because they're a multi-racial national group.
I'm not racist. Well, except when it's towards Mexican Transsexual Anarchists who live in Wisconsin. They should burn in hell.