Conspiracies

[Peace on Earth]

What is your take on the modern conspiracy theories, such as the assassinations of Martin Luther King Jr., John and Robert Kennedy, 9/11, etc. Do you think they hold any weight or is it a bunch of lunatics spouting nonsense?

In my opinion, the word conspiracy theory has been tarnished. At face value, there is nothing wrong with calling something a conspiracy, which would make it a conspiracy theory. But popular media and popular culture, it seems, look down upon anyone who suggests something else than the official line.

In many cases, while there may not be enough evidence to point to one group besides the given, there surely are enough doubts to not believe the official story presented by the government.

[Qayin]

Robert and MLK could be legit conspiracies, that that time COINTELPRO was big (Probably still is) and the FBI were knocking off people such as the Blank Panthers

Fuck JFK though

[Peace on Earth]

Why is the JFK assassination not to be considered a conspiracy, yet the others are?

[28350]

Conspiracy theories are planted and started by the government to keep us guessing, in fear, and too busy to notice the REAL culprits: male models.

[fa2991]

In my opinion, the word conspiracy theory has been tarnished. At face value, there is nothing wrong with calling something a conspiracy, which would make it a conspiracy theory.

Such a noble lineage tarnished! For shame!


Why is the JFK assassination not to be considered a conspiracy, yet the others are?

I think he was just saying that because JFK was a shitty president.

[Die Rote Fahne]

They're a waste of time. Why concentrate on such nonsense when you can put your effort into fighting capitalism and the bourgeoisie?

[Peace on Earth]

@Fa: Both ignoring massive government conspiracies as well as noting them but dismissing the theories isn't productive.

@Propaghandi: Because the effects of the actions of the conspirators are numerous and long lasting (often resulting in adverse consequences for many of the people we support), it is worth looking into them.

Do you think they are credible, even if you don't care to think about them?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

@Fa: Both ignoring massive government conspiracies as well as noting them but dismissing the theories isn't productive.

@Propaghandi: Because the effects of the actions of the conspirators are numerous and long lasting (often resulting in adverse consequences for many of the people we support), it is worth looking into them.

Do you think they are credible, even if you don't care to think about them?

11/9 conspiracy theories are sprouted by insane lunatics. Most other modern conspiracy theories are also. It's the PLANET NIBURU coming back for the 2012 party that houses SATAN/EVIL ALIENS/FALLEN ANGEL COLONY #4,000, it's the MARXIST WORLD CONSPIRACY aka NEW WORLD ORDER á la John Birch Society 60's propaganda rehashed, it's all a bunch of rubbish about CONTROLLED DEMOLITION and they live in a delusional world where every condensation trail left by an aeroplane is a "CHEMTRAIL" whereby the U.S. GOVERNMENT (they sure have magical powers) spread dangerous chemicals and test toxins that create non-existent diseases ("MORGELLONS") dispersed from 30,000 meters: it's a world where some "ILLUMINATI" organisation of supposed "COMMUNISTS/JEWS/OTHER SCAPEGOATS" rule the world and turn it into Soviet Union/China/other daemonised state and to them even a private company building over-done tolled motorways is a "federal government landgrab".

Conspiracies as "conspiracy theorists" imagine then are irrelevant and nonsensical. The real system of power operates the way it has always done. A lot of it happens behind closed doors and is not publicly admitted, yet, what does this change, for us? We are opposed to the capitalist system. The individual details of the atrocities the leaders of the world commit are irrelevant, as are the circle-jerk clubs and meetings they might attend to discuss how to collaborate in the global capitalist economy; it's not something we care about, we work for fundamental change, not against a specific problem with the capitalist ruling class and its inbred exclusive fraternities.

[Die Rote Fahne]

@Fa: Both ignoring massive government conspiracies as well as noting them but dismissing the theories isn't productive.

@Propaghandi: Because the effects of the actions of the conspirators are numerous and long lasting (often resulting in adverse consequences for many of the people we support), it is worth looking into them.

Do you think they are credible, even if you don't care to think about them?

Know what's long lasting? Capitalism.

Because you'd rather figure out if those in power are perpetrating conspiracies rather than take them out of power so no more conspiracies can be perpetrated.

Do I think they're credible? No.

[Qayin]

Because you'd rather figure out if those in power are perpetrating conspiracies rather than take them out of power so no more conspiracies can be perpetrated.
but wouldn't acts that are defined as maybe a Conspiracy Theory(such as the assassination of famous activist, CIA involvement in drug smuggling,ect) by a byproduct of a Capitalist system protecting its interests?

[Sasha]

Just because i am paranoid doesnt mean they aren't out to get me...

[Peace on Earth]

Because you'd rather figure out if those in power are perpetrating conspiracies rather than take them out of power so no more conspiracies can be perpetrated.

It's possible to do both.

[ComradeOm]

but wouldn't acts that are defined as maybe a Conspiracy Theory(such as the assassination of famous activist, CIA involvement in drug smuggling,ect) by a byproduct of a Capitalist system protecting its interests?Conspiracies exist, no question of that, buts its vital to note that capitalism itself is not a conspiracy. Yes, companies will fix prices and spooks will plot assassinations but these are not integral to the capitalism system or the maintenance of the bourgeois state. And that's the problem with conspiracy theorists - they see the world and oppression as a series of interlocked conspiracies when the reality is rooted in the far more mundane class struggle

Or rather, a problem with conspiracy theorists. The bigger one is that most of them are just nutters

[Barry Lyndon]

A great talk on conspiracies from a Marxist perspective. A little dated but still relevant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbH1UljpDHg

[Die Rote Fahne]

It's possible to do both.

I'm sure it is. But you waste more time by focusing on both or focusing on conspiracies.

I'm sorry, but get your priorities as a socialist straight.

[Peace on Earth]

I'm sure it is. But you waste more time by focusing on both or focusing on conspiracies.

I'm sorry, but get your priorities as a socialist straight.
Priorities as a socialist? That's a new one for me to hear. As a socialist, I'm concerned with ending capitalism and all its evils. But that doesn't mean I can never spend some of my time learning about various conspiracies.

Are you one to believe that anything not directly related to the overthrow of the capitalist system is a waste of time? Some people shoot guns, some watch movies, some play games, and some try to uncover various conspiracies within government that have long-lasting consequences. Don't lecture me on my priorities.

[Magón]

The 9/11 theories I can't believe. I just don't see what they're saying when the video shows things, that aren't there, that they say are. Though, it does seem since Pearl Harbor, every time something like a strike on the US or something to heavily do with the US Government, the theorists come out saying that the US Government had warning ahead of time, and could have stopped it but didn't because they wanted war.

Which, isn't all that ridiculous in other cases, but I don't believe conspiracies. They're fun to hear though.

[Red Commissar]

To me some conspiracies (recently I've been looking at Gladio and Operation Condor) are interesting but many I keep away from. I find that some people get too obsessed with them and they lose focus on their objectives.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Priorities as a socialist? That's a new one for me to hear. As a socialist, I'm concerned with ending capitalism and all its evils. But that doesn't mean I can never spend some of my time learning about various conspiracies.

Are you one to believe that anything not directly related to the overthrow of the capitalist system is a waste of time? Some people shoot guns, some watch movies, some play games, and some try to uncover various conspiracies within government that have long-lasting consequences. Don't lecture me on my priorities.

There are many non-conspiracies that are perpetrated by the US government, which clearly have not been enough to make change. The US has openly installed/backed right wing dictators, tortured people, broke international law, and openly does what it can to protect the wealthy.

Proving that a conspiracy has or has not taken place will change nothing. The bourgeoisie will still hold the political power and capital, and the workers will still be exploited.

What is to be gained by proving that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't shoot JFK, or that 9/11 was orchestrated by the Bush administration?

[Peace on Earth]

What is to be gained by proving that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't shoot JFK, or that 9/11 was orchestrated by the Bush administration?
While we may be slipping farther and farther away from the point where the truth will instigate real feelings, we are still within that realm. As opposed to dictators in far-off lands or policies that kill millions abroad, things such as the death of JFK or 9/11 were done to Americans on American soil. Imagine the national outrage and pure disbelief if it were proven that the Bush administration caused 9/11? There would be near-revolution on all sides of the political spectrum. Things matter much more when they are close to home.

[ComradeOm]

Imagine the national outrage and pure disbelief if it were proven that the Bush administration caused 9/11?Imagine my disbelief and that of all straight-thinking people :glare:

Which is the basic problem with conspiracy theories - sometimes (most of the time actually) there is simply nothing to be found. Nothing to expose. Nothing to do except make youTube videos about how Obama is really a Mexican UFO. The real scoops (think Watergate) aren't the product of dedicated amateurs overcoming a highly secretive and professional government apparatus; they're the result of paid journalists picking up stories leaked or accidentally exposed by incompetent and venal bureaucrats

[Bubbles]

I think you have to look at conspiracy theories in two groups; ordinary conspiracy theories and thin foil hat conspiracy theories. There have been a large number of proven conspiracies and events you might suspect to be a consequence of a conspiracy. But it's important to acknowledge that the problem with this system is not the conspiracies. It's also important to acknowledge that the capitalist class is a class conscious of their own class interest, so of course there will be acts of conspiracies.

For example we had a prime minister who where murdered, named Olof Palme, and member of the social democratic working party. Shot in a open street. Police tried to put the blame on a 41 year old drunk named Christer Petterson, and said he shot the prime minister by accident instead of some other dude. And this was the night the prime minister had dumped his life guards going to a movie with his wife alone in the middle of stockholm. What a coincidence. I find it pretty likely there was a conspiracy behind it. C. Pettersson later got freed of the accusations after he was convicted at first. But I don't think the system would fall if the truth came out.

Petterson "falled in some stairs" and died a couple of years ago after being arrested by police... It makes me curious to investigate ;)

[IllicitPopsicle]

I think you have to look at conspiracy theories in two groups; ordinary conspiracy theories and thin foil hat conspiracy theories. There have been a large number of proven conspiracies and events you might suspect to be a consequence of a conspiracy. But it's important to acknowledge that the problem with this system is not the conspiracies. It's also important to acknowledge that the capitalist class is a class conscious of their own class interest, so of course there will be acts of conspiracies.

For example we had a prime minister who where murdered, named Olof Palme, and member of the social democratic working party. Shot in a open street. Police tried to put the blame on a 41 year old drunk named Christer Petterson, and said he shot the prime minister by accident instead of some other dude. And this was the night the prime minister had dumped his life guards going to a movie with his wife alone in the middle of stockholm. What a coincidence. I find it pretty likely there was a conspiracy behind it. C. Pettersson later got freed of the accusations after he was convicted at first. But I don't think the system would fall if the truth came out.

Petterson "falled in some stairs" and died a couple of years ago after being arrested by police... It makes me curious to investigate ;)

I learned about this through Steig Larsson's books... It's a pretty interesting story (the Olof Palme assassination, that is... although the Millennium series is great too).

[Bubbles]

I learned about this through Steig Larsson's books... It's a pretty interesting story (the Olof Palme assassination, that is... although the Millennium series is great too).
I just have to point out that there is nothing that suggests that the millennium series is based on a true story.