What is a "fascist"?

[PeacefulRevolution]

I've always thought of "fascism" as Mussolini described it, that is, the belief that the needs of the state are more important than the needs of the individual. However, I am confused as to what exactly a member of this forum means when they refer to someone as a "fascist." Can someone help me out?

[Dimentio]

I've always thought of "fascism" as Mussolini described it, that is, the belief that the needs of the state are more important than the needs of the individual. However, I am confused as to what exactly a member of this forum means when they refer to someone as a "fascist." Can someone help me out?

Basically every right-wing authoritarian in general. In short, right-wingers which are anti-immigrationist, wants more police control and stronger border control.

I'm thinking myself the usage of that term is inflating the meaning of fascism.

[Peace on Earth]

If anyone is familiar with the "14 signs of facism," do you agree or disagree? I've heard it both ways.

[gorillafuck]

I've always thought of "fascism" as Mussolini described it, that is, the belief that the needs of the state are more important than the needs of the individual.
Out of all the definitions of fascism I've heard, I've never heard that one.

As I understand it fascism is a state that arises in response to a very strong and very organized working class, to put brutally down the working class movement, class collaborationism in the form of heavy nationalism, and the integration of all political and labor organizations to the fascist capitalist state.

[RadioRaheem84]

No! Not another "what is fascism" thread! Aren't there any sticky threads about fascism?

[Tablo]

The way I see it is that fascism is an ideology. I do not stupidly refer to every single authoritarian thing as fascism and I don't call every conservative a fascist. It simply is not accurate.

[28350]

If anyone is familiar with the "14 signs of facism," do you agree or disagree? I've heard it both ways.

That's kind of BS.
By those criteria, not only Nazi Germany, but the U.S. and even the U.S.S.R. (at some points, arguably) are fascist as well.

[Nolan]

Fascism is an ideology that emphasizes national and cultural purity above all else. It seeks to implement a corporatist structure over the standard laissez-faire capitalist system, meaning the bourgeoisie are organized into a "guild" system. Fascists may recognize class struggle in society rather than pretend capitalism is classless as some libertarians do, but they seek to make classes collaborate rather than abolish class and property rights over the means of production. This is because they see hierarchy in economic power as a fundamentally good thing and praise "meritocracy."

Some examples of fascism would include, of course, Mussolini's Italy and Nazi Germany. The modern Neo-nazi movement is fascist, but one could argue that white nationalism as a whole is not fascist, as it predates it and differs in goals. So antifa needs a name change.

[Nolan]

Basically every right-wing authoritarian in general. In short, right-wingers which are anti-immigrationist, wants more police control and stronger border control.

I'm thinking myself the usage of that term is inflating the meaning of fascism.

That's not fascism, that's just run of the mill right-wing xenophobia.

[Broletariat]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/fascismi-t136934/index.html?t=136934&highlight=fascism

This thread helped me out

[Die Rote Fahne]

Fascism can be described as a far-right political ideology that emphasizes authoritarianism, totalitarianism, imperialism, militarism, nationalism (often racial), social conservatism, a dictatorial figure head that is a patriarch of the entire nation, a set of economics: third position, corporatist or capitalist (usually a mixture of the latter).

It is not a 100% correct idea to say Fascism is Nazism. But Nazism is Fascism.

Examples:
- Benito Mussolini in Italy.
- Adolf Hitler and the Third reich in Germany.
- Francisco Franco in Spain

When referring to someone as a "fascist" it is oft used as an epithet to insult or "flame" the other person. However, when legitimately speaking, the term "fascist" refers to someone who follows a Fascist ideology such as national socialism, national Bolshevism, Falangism, Italian fascism etc etc.

** Fascism is NOT always racist **

Before Mussolini had met and formed an alliance with Hitler and the Nazis, he himself stated that there was "no such thing as racial purity", and he had had many Jewish followers.

Also note that fascism is NOT a working class movement. Workers are used by fascists.

[Peace on Earth]

That's kind of BS.
By those criteria, not only Nazi Germany, but the U.S. and even the U.S.S.R. (at some points, arguably) are fascist as well.
And that is a problem because? The United States, while maintaining a facade of democracy, is, in many respects, eerily similar to facist nations.

[jake williams]

As I understand it fascism is a state that arises in response to a very strong and very organized working class, to put brutally down the working class movement, class collaborationism in the form of heavy nationalism, and the integration of all political and labor organizations to the fascist capitalist state.
This is what fascism is.

[Raúl Duke]

Based on what I've read about fascists (by fascists I'm talking about Italian fascism and the Spanish falange)

They do not see themselves as conservatives per se yet many of them talk about either "going back" to some glory days or to create a new golden age akin to past glory days yet new (futurist-types), also their movement has a tendency to ally themselves with conservative right-wing groups (although I heard of some Italian and Spanish fascists decrying alliances with the traditional right wing).

Their economic model and the rationale behind it points towards the explicit "class-collaborationist" nature of fascism. They advocate some "third way" which usually entails some form of corporatism where the state plays a heavy role and "establishes class peace" in a variety of ways. However, Spanish fascism has had many elitists in its milleu (but that may have to do with its relation vis-a-vis with the working class: open conflict; their nature as a tool for the bourgeoisie bare to all to see due to the Civil War) and the "class peace" rhetoric is less used. One impetus for fascism's class-collaborationist attitudes has to do with nationalism, they view national identity has more transcendent and important than class.

Fascism doesn't exactly have to be racist, it could be intergrationalist, but it always requires people to submit to one idea of nationality. In Italy, there were many programs to "italianize" the people in Albania and the coastal regions of Yugoslavia. In Spain, other Iberian languages, especially Catalan and Euskara (for the obvious reason that Catalonia and Basque region where the most rebellious), and culture where marginalized in favor of Castellano (Spanish).

Supposedly, fascism as an ideology idealizes violence, war, and conflict; war being the contest/test which mettles "worthy nations" to the top. Conflicts could be internal ones as well and in this case fascism rises to attack the working class by labeling trade unions,strikers, and subversives as "internal enemies". Without these things, fascist nations tend to just stagnate and fall apart after the first leader drops dead. Portugal and Spain's fascist regimes fell apart a bit after the main leader died.

[Magón]

I've always thought of "fascism" as Mussolini described it, that is, the belief that the needs of the state are more important than the needs of the individual. However, I am confused as to what exactly a member of this forum means when they refer to someone as a "fascist." Can someone help me out?

Well Fascism did sprout from Italy, by the Italian Far-Right Nationalist something, something (I can never remember it all off hand,) who in which Mussolini sprouted from when he came to power, or more or less got his Fascist ideas.

As for what a "Fascist" is to me personally, is a person who takes and cares little of the working class, to only have them produce what a small elite group of government or elitist people want. Taking, rather than spreading. Taking, rather than sharing. A Fascist in my mind, is the pinnacle of what someone like Sarah Palin stands for and is.

[28350]

And that is a problem because? The United States, while maintaining a facade of democracy, is, in many respects, eerily similar to facist nations.

Because fascism is not a term that you can just throw around.
The US is a lot of terrible things, but it is decidedly not fascist.

[Thirsty Crow]

Fascism is an ideology that emphasizes national and cultural purity above all else. It seeks to implement a corporatist structure over the standard laissez-faire capitalist system, meaning the bourgeoisie are organized into a "guild" system. Fascists may recognize class struggle in society rather than pretend capitalism is classless as some libertarians do, but they seek to make classes collaborate rather than abolish class and property rights over the means of production. This is because they see hierarchy in economic power as a fundamentally good thing and praise "meritocracy."

And I would add that fascists see every kind of hierarchy, not just in economic power, as natural or "organic" (which is a key term for any fascist or quasi-fascist discourse) and completely justified. For example, the "chain of command" runs up to the Great Leader (everywhere where fascism developed, certain forms of old monarchic rule reappeared as well) from the very "organic" core of the community, i.e. the nuclear family, which is also a site of different hierarchies.

But Red America' s gotten 99% of things completely right.

[Peace on Earth]

Because fascism is not a term that you can just throw around.
The US is a lot of terrible things, but it is decidedly not fascist.
You said you didn't like that 14 signs of facism because it included the United States. But that isn't a credible reason. If the shoe fits...

[IllicitPopsicle]

Including the US in a list of fascist countries is wrong because, well, the US is not a fascist country.

I don't think it could get any more simple than that.

[Nolan]

If the USA was fascist, I'd be dead.

[Barry Lyndon]

The US itself is not fascist, although it contains fascist elements-KKK, neo-Nazis, sections of the military and police, etc.
I also think it is possible to live under a form of fascism in a society that is not fascist overall- undocumented Mexican immigrants, for instance, or black suspects tortured by racist police(like the John Burge case in Chicago).
The US national security state rather then imposing fascism domestically, maintains its global hegemony by supporting openly fascist or neo-fascist regimes abroad.

Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Imperial Japan, Indonesia under Suharto, Chile under Pinochet, Cambodia under the Khmer Rogue I would consider examples of genuine fascist states.

[Nolan]

The US itself is not fascist, although it contains fascist elements-KKK, neo-Nazis, sections of the military and police, etc.
I also think it is possible to live under a form of fascism in a society that is not fascist overall- undocumented Mexican immigrants, for instance, or black suspects tortured by racist police(like the John Burge case in Chicago).
The US national security state rather then imposing fascism domestically, maintains its global hegemony by supporting openly fascist or neo-fascist regimes abroad.

Nothing you described makes it fascist.


Nazi Germany,

Yes.


Fascist Italy,

Yes.


Imperial Japan,

I don't really know. It certainly wasn't ideologically - it was just plain monarchism. As far as structure, I think you could call it parafascist, maybe. I think there's a name for what is sometimes called Japanese corporatism of the time.

Ah, found it. Zaibatsu. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaibatsu)


Indonesia under Suharto,

No.


Chile under Pinochet,

No.


Cambodia under the Khmer Rogue

Now now. Let's not throw it around blindly.

[28350]

You said you didn't like that 14 signs of facism because it included the United States. But that isn't a credible reason. If the shoe fits...

Way to misquote me. I don't like the 14 points because they're just a bunch of loose characteristics rattled off without any significant analysis. I said they amounted to an incorrect definition, which, as an example of its falsity, included the US.


Including the US in a list of fascist countries is wrong because, well, the US is not a fascist country.

I don't think it could get any more simple than that.
I sure hope you're not being sarcastic.


durr hurr america is a nazi fascist police state remember remember the fifth of november

Here are the "14 points of fascism":

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif
US, check. USSR, check.
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights
US, check. USSR, check.
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause
US, check. USSR, check.
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism
US, check. USSR, check.
5. Rampant sexism http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif
I'm not an authority on sexism in the USSR, but I'd imagine it was about the same as sexism in the US.
6. A controlled mass media http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif
US, check. USSR, check.
7. Obsession with national security
US, check. USSR, check.8. Religion and ruling elite tied together http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif
I don't think you can say this for either. You can make a much stronger case for the US, obviously, but it's not really to a point where it counts.
9. Power of corporations protected http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif
US, check.
10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif
US, check. USSR, depends on who you ask. I'm going to say somewhat.
11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif
US, check. USSR, check.12. Obsession with crime and punishment http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif
US, check. USSR, check.13. Rampant cronyism and corruption http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif
US, check. USSR, check.14. Fraudulent elections http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif
US, check. USSR, check.
So ultimately, the ways in which the US differs from the USSR according to these criteria are church and state, corporate power, and suppression of labor. It is in the interest of every single capitalist state to protect corporate power and suppress labor power. And church and state? That just adds divine legitimacy to your laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism#Marxist_definition
Here, have a definition that isn't just some liberal capitalist's nightmare that sounds just like "totalitarianism"
EDIT: The dereferer cuts off the orthotrope (#) from the URL, the last segment is "#Marxist_definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism#Marxist_definition)"
Also, I wish I could thank your post twice, Red America.

[Magón]

Nothing you described makes it fascist.

He did mention that the US itself was not Fascist. He stated that right at the beginning of his post. But he just mentioned Fascist organizations do live and thrive in some places, in the United States. This is true, by him mentioning the KKK, neo-Nazis, and Fascist police who beat people down or harm people, when such force is not called for.

[Red Commissar]

Fascism is a very tricky concept to define because we have to analyze the conditions it arises out of. Applying standards of nationalism, an extensive security system, its economic conditions, class collaboration, and authoritarianism can apply to a number of states that were not usually considered fascist, and many of these terms is up to whose perspective you take.

The key is that we have to see the political, economic, and social climate a fascist movement arose out of and how it worked with the existing ruling class.

In the Italian episode there were two faces of Fascism. Nin mentioned in the first page about a predecessor to Mussolini, this man was Gabriele d'Annunzio. d'Annuzio led a march of ultra-nationalists coming from war veterans and syndicalists, who marched on the city of Fiume (better known as Rijeka, Croatia). Fiume was put in limbo as negotiations never found solutions favorable to either Italy or Yugoslavia, and the Italian nationalists felt their government was too weakly pressing the issue. d'Annuzio tapped into the great amount of ultra-nationalist (and in many regards, irredentist) sentiment.

However the brand of fascists that arose out of d'Annuzio's experience, while also drawing from the angst of the petit-bourgeoisie of Italy, who were backwards thinking and afraid of industrialization and economic advancement. In many regards there were just disorganized right-wing populists. Mussolini's brand of fascism was not afraid of industrialization and some progression, and making concessions/compromises to the industrialists and some reformist trade-unionist leaders to forge his corporatist economy.

d'Annuzio turned against Mussolini's direction in politics and became irrelevant after he conveniently fell out of a window early on in Mussolini's rise to prominence. He attempted to move Mussolini back to his views, particularly against joining the Axis.

I find that the term of "fascist" is employed too loosely nowadays, and I think this is in no part there is no consistently agreed definition of fascism because at many points its contradictory in its claims, probably as it was focused on securing power first at all costs...

[gorillafuck]

No.
Pinochet was a fascist....


The US itself is not fascist, although it contains fascist elements-KKK, neo-Nazis, sections of the military and police, etc.
In regards to the KKK and neo-nazism, modern capitalist republics are usually not fond of domestic fascists (regardless of how much they support fascist elements abroad), they see them as trouble. They prefer them to leftists though.

[Nolan]

It makes no sense to call Pinochet a fascist. I don't know where this notion came from that any capitalist state with a dictatorial government is fascist.

It's even more idiotic to apply the word fascist to movements like the tea party.

[Nolan]

He did mention that the US itself was not Fascist. He stated that right at the beginning of his post. But he just mentioned Fascist organizations do live and thrive in some places, in the United States. This is true, by him mentioning the KKK, neo-Nazis, and Fascist police who beat people down or harm people, when such force is not called for.

Well nothing he said implies that the US government has anything to do with fascism. Fascist movements enjoy some currency almost everywhere on the globe. And abuse of power by cops does not = fascism.

As for the KKK, I don't really know. At one time it was just plain conservative and white nationalist, then many of them started to be nazified. I'm sure different sects have different views today, so you'll have free market nuts as well as Hitlerites.

[gorillafuck]

It makes no sense to call Pinochet a fascist. I don't know where this notion came from that any capitalist state with a dictatorial government is fascist.
It's not just that (I mean, I wouldn't say Saudi Arabia are fascist but they are both capitalist states with dictatorial governments). He arose at a time of high class consciousness and class struggle turmoil in Chile, and brutally put down all aspects of a working class movement, made all organizations subservient to the state, and imposed neoliberal capitalism. That is a fascist.

[Nolan]

It's not just that (I mean, I wouldn't say Saudi Arabia are fascist but they are both capitalist states with dictatorial governments). He arose at a time of high class consciousness and class struggle turmoil in Chile, and brutally put down all aspects of a working class movement, made all organizations subservient to the state, and imposed neoliberal capitalism. That is a fascist.

Problem is, neoliberal capitalism is not fascism.

[Red Commissar]

Fascists did typically serve a position in their respective states of restoring equilibrium in countries wrecked by economic recession and labor disputes. I remember reading that in its early days Mussolini's fascist movement got a lot of support from industrialists and other sort of capitalists, and the liberal Giovanni Giolitti government had done little to curtail its violent activities.

And as we saw in Italy the working class was sent through the grinder for the greater good of the state, and their large industries came back into power.

Though later on Hitler and Mussolini supplanted the ruling class with their own, and then tried to go and challenge the traditional ruling class in Europe (who had before that point been eagerly watching their developments and nudging them on) and war began.

Though was Franco considered a fascist through and through? I know the Falangist movement he became a part of was certainly modeled after Mussolini's fascist movement, but I was under the impression Franco changed some aspects of the party to suit a traditional conservative outlook?

[gorillafuck]

Problem is, neoliberal capitalism is not fascism.
Your idea of fascism is too rigid if you're expecting fascism to always be exact replicas of fascist Italy.

[Peace on Earth]

Including the US in a list of fascist countries is wrong because, well, the US is not a fascist country.

I don't think it could get any more simple than that.
Rule Numero Uno: Back up claims with facts.

(I'm refering to "The U.S. is not a facist country")

[gorillafuck]

Rule Numero Uno: Back up claims with facts.

(I'm refering to "The U.S. is not a facist country")
You're the one that needs to back up your claim with facts. You haven't offered any proof.

[Thirsty Crow]

Rule Numero Uno: Back up claims with facts.

(I'm refering to "The U.S. is not a facist country")
Eeerr, no.
You have to provide evidence that the US is a fascist country.
And if I remember correctly, you used the "14 points" argument, and these points have been proven completely irrelevant to historical fascism, and probably to post-WW II manifestations of similar political ideologies.

[Peace on Earth]

You're the one that needs to back up your claim with facts. You haven't offered any proof.
Which claim have I made? The initial question I posed was regarding the "14 signs of facism." I haven't taken a stance for or against it, yet some have, without backing up their views.

[Peace on Earth]

Eeerr, no.
And if I remember correctly, you used the "14 points" argument, and these points have been proven completely irrelevant to historical fascism, and probably to post-WW II manifestations of similar political ideologies.
You don't remember correctly. Go back and read.

[gorillafuck]

Which claim have I made? The initial question I posed was regarding the "14 signs of facism." I haven't taken a stance for or against it, yet some have, without backing up their views.
He/she doesn't need to offer proof that the US is fascist, whoever thinks it is needs to offer proof. And the "14 signs" are not all inherently fascist or not fascist. Sign number 13 is corruption. That would mean, if' we're using the 14 signs to decide who's fascist, a country has politicians acting corruptly means it has fascist elements. That's ridiculous.

[Thirsty Crow]

And that is a problem because? The United States, while maintaining a facade of democracy, is, in many respects, eerily similar to facist nations.


If anyone is familiar with the "14 signs of facism," do you agree or disagree? I've heard it both ways.
Soooo...
I am familiar with the "14 signs" and they have been debunked in this thread fairly successfully.
Your second "argument" is that you seem to believe that there are similarities...Between what? American political reality and those 14 points or the actual historical fascism as evident in Germany from 1933 to 1945 and Mussolini's Italy?

Bu strictly speaking, you either weren't using any logical argument at all or you used the debunked 14 points argument. So that makes my "going back and rereading" redundant.

[Peace on Earth]

Soooo...
I am familiar with the "14 signs" and they have been debunked in this thread fairly successfully.
Your second "argument" is that you seem to believe that there are similarities...Between what? American political reality and those 14 points or the actual historical fascism as evident in Germany from 1933 to 1945 and Mussolini's Italy?

Bu strictly speaking, you either weren't using any logical argument at all or you used the debunked 14 points argument. So that makes my "going back and rereading" redundant.
I never made an argument. I did say that the U.S. is eerily similar to many facist nations, which in many respects it is. There is a growing movement of anti-foreign nationalism, in which American, English-speaking, white citizens are promoted as the "best" citizens. We are a country in love with war, and domestically our government uses tactics to subdue to the population for the needs of the state.

Is it facist? That's up for debate, and that is what this thread is for. Don't tell me I've taken a stance either way, because I haven't.

[Magón]

And abuse of power by cops does not = fascism.

Are you serious? Abusive cops don't equal a fascist mindset? Really? That makes me laugh. Like Zeekloid said, your view on Fascism is too rigid, and you're basing it all off too much of Mussolini's Italy. You have to realize, that ideologies do evolve and change with the times. (Not all fascists follow Mussolini's Fascism.) I'd say any cop who willingly participates in the abuse of unarmed civilians, either during a protest or simple disagreement with the Cop escalates the matter, is a fascist or a fascist drone. They obviously have no intent on allowing such things to be said or done against them, so they strike in to the extreme, by beating people down who were peaceably protesting in the streets. (G20 anyone?) Last I checked, peaceful protest was not against any US Laws, but the cops seem to have a fascist attitude, that the laws do not apply to them, so they can do what they like.

Cops are not your friends, and would stab you in the back the second they get a chance to advance in a social circle, or look good for their fascist bosses.

[Nolan]

Your idea of fascism is too rigid if you're expecting fascism to always be exact replicas of fascist Italy.

No, I'm expecting it to have the same or at least very similar economic and political structure. Pinochet's Chile was vastly more similar to any other capitalist Latin American country than Italy or Germany. Nazi Germany was not a carbon copy of Italy, but then again neither is France a carbon copy of the USA.

[Nolan]

Are you serious? Abusive cops don't equal a fascist mindset? Really? That makes me laugh. Like Zeekloid said, your view on Fascism is too rigid, and you're basing it all off too much of Mussolini's Italy. You have to realize, that ideologies do evolve and change with the times. (Not all fascists follow Mussolini's Fascism.) I'd say any cop who willingly participates in the abuse of unarmed civilians, either during a protest or simple disagreement with the Cop escalates the matter, is a fascist or a fascist drone. They obviously have no intent on allowing such things to be said or done against them, so they strike in to the extreme, by beating people down who were peaceably protesting in the streets. (G20 anyone?) Last I checked, peaceful protest was not against any US Laws, but the cops seem to have a fascist attitude, that the laws do not apply to them, so they can do what they like.

Cops are not your friends, and would stab you in the back the second they get a chance to advance in a social circle, or look good for their fascist bosses.

You're missing the entire fucking point. Fascism is an ideology, not a slur for police.

[28350]

Which claim have I made? The initial question I posed was regarding the "14 signs of facism." I haven't taken a stance for or against it, yet some have, without backing up their views.

Excuse me?
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1832157&postcount=23
GTFO.

[Magón]

You're missing the entire fucking point. Fascism is an ideology, not a slur for police.

That doesn't take away from the point, that police still act in a Fascist way. Plenty of people can act in all forms of Ideological ways, and still not be apart of that ideology. (Maybe they are, but not always.) Abusive police can be called Fascists in most cases, because they act in a Fascist way against the people they're there to "serve and protect". Don't you get it? You don't have to be Fascist to still act out in a Fascist manner. And abusive police do so.

[Nolan]

That doesn't take away from the point, that police still act in a Fascist way. Plenty of people can act in all forms of Ideological ways, and still not be apart of that ideology. (Maybe they are, but not always.) Abusive police can be called Fascists in most cases, because they act in a Fascist way against the people they're there to "serve and protect". Don't you get it? You don't have to be Fascist to still act out in a Fascist manner. And abusive police do so.

http://www.gogaminggiant.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/facepalm.jpg

[Magón]

http://www.gogaminggiant.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/facepalm.jpg

I never understood why people just posted pics, when someone's trying to make a point. It doesn't help, it just kinda adds to the futility of debating.

[28350]

I, for one, act as a feudalist, even though I'm a communist.

[Nolan]

It's common practice to post a facepalm pic after one simply doesn't know how to begin to respond to some utter idiocy.

Alright, comrade, answer me this: What does that have to do with the ideology of fascism? Fascism is more complex than just "beat the shit out of striking/rebellious workers." Every normal capitalist society has done that at some point or another since the beginning. It has nothing to do with fascism.

[Magón]

It's common practice to post a facepalm pic after one simply doesn't know how to begin to respond to some utter idiocy.

Alright, comrade, answer me this: What does that have to do with the ideology of fascism? Fascism is more complex than just "beat the shit out of striking/rebellious workers." Every normal capitalist society has done that at some point or another since the beginning. It has nothing to do with fascism.

Have you ever heard of Mussolini's Black Shirts? They didn't just go off, take people away and kill them. They made a public display of beating someone down. And I never said it was just the cops who do the beating, but the bosses who support such acts. They act in a Fascist way which trickles down by allowing such things to happen. And have you ever actually spoken to a Cop? I mean, not just, "Hey, how's it going? Oh that's nice, have a nice day Officer." I mean a political talk with a Cop on matters of society? Well I have, and I can tell you that their whole mindset is viewed from a Fascist viewpoint. I have a neighbor that's a cop in fact, and we've had plenty of chats about people's political rights, etc. He's probably the most Fascist Cop I've ever met! And not to add his buddies from the force, but they probably just as Fascist.

Just because acting in a way that would be viewed by most as Fascist, doesn't mean that person's Fascist. My uncle's like that. He has Fascist tendencies when speaking to people, but he'd never be apart of Fascism. Sure Fascism's an ideology, but that doesn't restrict people from acting out in Fascist ways.

[Nolan]

Goddamnit you just don't get it.

[Thirsty Crow]

That doesn't take away from the point, that police still act in a Fascist way.
You cannot act in a fascist ways. You're miisusing the language.
On the other hand, you could say that the police act in an authoritarian way, which more often then not diregards any notion of human rights, but that does'nt amount to fascism, which is a political ideology and not some common denominator of authoritarian behaviour.

[Peace on Earth]

Excuse me?
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1832157&postcount=23
GTFO.
What in the world does that prove, Mr. Grouch?

[Raúl Duke]

Problem is, neoliberal capitalism is not fascism. Concerning Pinochet's Chile, initially while he may have followed free-market policies as per the dictates of the "Chicago boys" or whatever in the end he reverted to using state intervention (particularly concerning certain mining enterprise) to get the economy running according to some accounts.

Also, fascism might be somewhat different in this new 21st century. Perhaps it won't even call itself that. Also, fascism differs between countries perhaps also due to their unique circumstances, culture, and history. National Socialism is nothing like Italian or Spanish fascism, especially considering Nazism's fetishism over "racial purity" and its virulent anti-semitism. However, arguably, Nazism played a similar role in some respects in Germany as Italian Fascism did in Italy.


"14 points"Many people have considered the 14 points to broad and it doesn't really define fascism in an ideological/philosophical sense.
It just makes many right-wing/reactionary imperialist state seem "fascism" but there's more to fascism than that. Right now, to say that the US is fascist now is a fucking joke compared to the possibility of what a real 'fascist' US would look like and be like.

[28350]

What in the world does that prove, Mr. Grouch?


Which claim have I made? The initial question I posed was regarding the "14 signs of facism." I haven't taken a stance for or against it, yet some have, without backing up their views.

That I backed up my views and you are full of crap.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

To simplify i would say that fascism is an even more violant form of capitalism.
The reaction towards the labour movement.

[Peace on Earth]

That I backed up my views and you are full of crap.
You're now the only person who is referred to by the word "some?" Come on dude.

[Red Commissar]

Also, fascism might be somewhat different in this new 21st century. Perhaps it won't even call itself that. Also, fascism differs between countries perhaps also due to their unique circumstances, culture, and history. National Socialism is nothing like Italian or Spanish fascism, especially considering Nazism's fetishism over "racial purity" and its virulent anti-semitism. However, arguably, Nazism played a similar role in some respects in Germany as Italian Fascism did in Italy.

Definitely. That's why I think it's important that before we go throwing around the term "fascist" we must look at the time and place a particular movement it sprouts up in, the conditions it faces, and how they respond to it, before we can accurately describe a movement as fascist or not.

Really the way "fascist" is thrown around nowadays as a byword for police repression is no different from the right-wing media pundits in the United States who toss around "socialist" in the same manner.

[Barry Lyndon]

" 1. Fascism is the unchecked rule of a class of the privileged, or relatively rich, in power--a full-scale assault on poor and working people. Parliamentary institutions are usually set aside, or so demeaned as to be meaningless. (The Holocaust was legal). Elites issue direct orders, frequently through a populist leader. Wages, any social safety net, working hour laws, labor laws; all come under legal (and extra-legal) attack. The stick replaces the carrot.
Even between capitalists of the same nation, struggle intensifies.

Fascism in its early stages has been popular among masses of people mystified by nationalism, racism, and sexism. These ideas are key to the construction of fascism. But, "war means work" for some, which may also explain its historical popularity.

Fascism requires and is built on the support of capitalist elites. Henry Ford, the Dulles family, the Catholic Church, and the German Krupps among many others, were early supporters of fascism in the U.S.

Fascism is an element of the modern era, which carries forward elements of feudalism. Fascism has taken the form of state capitalism in Japan, Germany, and in more sophisticated ways, the Soviet Union in the Stalin era. But fascism has also grown in less developed countries, Romania, Bulgaria, most of Eastern Europe, Cambodia, Argentina, Guatemala, Chile; and taken significantly different forms.

2. Fascism and capitalism are inseparable. There has never been a form of capital that was not built on a fascist base--from early British action against the Chartists to today's varieties of imperialism. All major capitalist nations have fascist ties.

Hence, while fascism may not be the dominant form of capitalist government, elements of fascist ideology (biological determinism, rabid nationalism, etc.) and fascist organizations (sectors of the police, KKK, skinheads, etc.) are always present. No capitalist government has ever required a revolution to institute fascism.

Fascism does emerge in capitalist crises, the moments when the struggle for production reaches a point when the workers can no longer purchase the products they produce, a crisis of over-production and declining profits and/or an intense battle for cheaper labor, raw materials, and new markets; that is, war.

However, neither war nor capitalist crisis is a pre-condition of fascism; consider Saudi Arabia or Kuwait. In addition, it is possible to live under fascism within a nation that is not itself entirely fascist, that is, to live as a jobless black youth in Sao Paulo, or Los Angeles.

3. Fascism deceptively calls for the national unity of social classes, class-collaboration, but actually promotes the division of people by race, sex, culture, nation, or religion. Fascism was, under Mussolini and, later, Hitler, conceived as the "corporate state", that is, all the resources of the society were directed toward the support of corporate profits in the name of national unity and economic development. In order to motivate warriors and bolster profits, fascism conceals the real and insoluble tensions between those who own and those who work.

4. Fascism frequently is employed as a strategic base for war. Fascist shifts in government and official ideology grow with war preparations.

5. Violence and terror, made tolerable by racism and sexism (ideas which view people as sub-human) become public policy.

6. Fascism relies on mysticism, organized irrationalism, a culture which turns to superstition, irrationality (extreme religious dogmatism, the fear of sexuality, celebrations of misogyny, death, and hopelessness--serving to explain apparent systematic despair), and retards science and social production in order to mask its own decay. Indeed, fascism is organized decay.

There is a jagged line which runs from conservative Christianity to anti-semitism to anti-communism which underpins much of fascist writing. But, there is no consistency to fascist ideology, other than to preserve capitalism. Fascism is irrationalism organized to sustain inequality and authoritarianism. Even so, the role of the ideology of irrationalism can become powerful, that is, Nazis sacrificed the productive work of many Jews in order to kill them.

7. Fascism is virulently anti-communist. Communists (and perhaps some anarchists), who have been the only consistent and effective anti-fascist fighters, are the fascist's first targets.

8. Fascism has only been defeated internally (primarily by the actions of indigenous national resistance), perhaps, twice: in Albania and, maybe, China. However, resistance movements have changed fascism and halted its birth.

9. There is evidence that combined theoretical and physical struggle causes fascism to retreat--in ideology and materially. In ideology, there is a growing body of research which indicates that vocal and written opposition to fascist ideas does cause a reevaluation and moderation of thinking in individuals. In pre-fascist Germany in the 1930's, areas which actively put people on the streets to fight the Nazis regularly caused Nazi withdrawals--and minimized fascist group membership. There is nothing inevitable about fascism. It is a political movement, reaching from production relations into the mass consciousness, and can be combatted physically and intellectually.

10. If these factors are true, then it seems effective resistance to fascism must be based on a class analysis of society, an internationalist perspective that attacks imperialist war, a multi-racial, anti-racist/sexist, organized approach (as opposed to ephemeral coalitions based on sex, race, religion), willingness to consider violence, and the grasp of the critical role of ideology in combatting fascist practice."

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/What_Is_Fascism_Gibson.html

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:0nSDS8TTy_JfHM:http://punsalad.com/ps/images/fasces.jpg&t=1

That is a Facist. Case closed.

[28350]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:0nSDS8TTy_JfHM:http://punsalad.com/ps/images/fasces.jpg&t=1

That is a Facist. Case closed.

No, that is a faggot with an axe handle - a fasces.

[Jazzhands]

The threadbare nature of actual fascist ideology as written by the original fascists makes it hard to analyze by itself. We have to look at it from a class perspective because so much of it is based on corporatism. If you want a good class analysis, what Barry Lyndon said. Also see Leon Trotsky's "Fascism: What it is and How to Fight it."

MIA posted that and Mussolini's "What is Fascism," which sheds light on it very well. The fasces is the symbol of Italian fascism. It symbolizes strength through unity. A single rod can be broken easily, but if you bundle a bunch of them together, they're unbreakable. Fascism, according to fascists, unites the nation in this way through state power. The goal of having this national unity is to further the aims of nationalism. This is just how fascists would say it.

[Reznov]

The way I see it is that fascism is an ideology. I do not stupidly refer to every single authoritarian thing as fascism and I don't call every conservative a fascist. It simply is not accurate.

Nope the other half we just call them racist instead :laugh::laugh: jk

[Red Commissar]

MIA posted that and Mussolini's "What is Fascism," which sheds light on it very well. The fasces is the symbol of Italian fascism. It symbolizes strength through unity. A single rod can be broken easily, but if you bundle a bunch of them together, they're unbreakable. Fascism, according to fascists, unites the nation in this way through state power. The goal of having this national unity is to further the aims of nationalism. This is just how fascists would say it.

Which manifested itself in class collaboration and the subjugation of the workers for the industries. It's little wonder why some industrialists in America (Ford) looked upon developments in Italy with pride because they thought it would go beyond the conflicts that "plagued" national progression.

A sidenote: the term which fascism takes from (fascio/fasci) was used before, but in a different form. There were socialist uprisings in the early 1890s in Sicily by a group that called itself the Fasci Siciliani dei Lavoratori, or the Sicilian Workers' League Before Mussolini's rise "fasci" often was used as a general term for a group, league, or a union of some sort.

[Sam_b]

That is a Facist. Case closed.

Are you actually capable of posting anything of any substance ever?