Good day, Revleft.

[Multatulit]

For a short introduction, I'm a dutch student, in my early twenties and am interested in discussing Marxist theory with like-minded comrades, and also in further crystallizing my standpoints and theoretical understanding of both Communism and Marxism.

My interest in Marxist theory was sparked by seeing the slums of India, and after working through Capital, I was left with the scratch on the mind which monumental books like that tend to cause. Ever since then I have immersed myself more in Marxist literature. Currently I feel most at home within the Trotskyist tradition, but have lacked any chance to have in depth discussions and hope to find that here.

For those wondering, my name is a play on the pseudonym used by one of my favourite writers in the dutch language, Eduard Douwes Dekker.

[Q]

Welkom :)

I'm also from the Netherlands, we have quite a big Dutch community around. If you want to know more about Trotskyist ideas and such, we could meet up I guess or just discuss online. I'm from the south, in Sittard, near Maastricht.

[Multatulit]

Welkom :)

I'm also from the Netherlands, we have quite a big Dutch community around. If you want to know more about Trotskyist ideas and such, we could meet up I guess or just discuss online. I'm from the south, in Sittard, near Maastricht.

Ah good to know!

I'm from the north, around Haarlem. The reason why I'm slightly hesitant about proclaiming myself a Trotskyist, is mostly due to my doubts about the theories of state-capitalism and the united front. While there is a definite logic in the former, especially about international capitalist accumulation, it doesn't deal with the lack of production of surplus value in the USSR (or at least, as far as my limited understanding of economics allows me to identify the production of surplus value in this case).

My problem with the united front is simply that I have my doubts about whether social-democrats among other are to be trusted, having a history of siding with the forces of reaction.

[Q]

Ah good to know!

I'm from the north, around Haarlem. The reason why I'm slightly hesitant about proclaiming myself a Trotskyist, is mostly due to my doubts about the theories of state-capitalism and the united front. While there is a definite logic in the former, especially about international capitalist accumulation, it doesn't deal with the lack of production of surplus value in the USSR (or at least, as far as my limited understanding of economics allows me to identify the production of surplus value in this case).
The theory of state-capitalism is mainly associated with the Internationale Socialisten, the Dutch franchise of the UK SWP. Outside the organisation it is a pretty rare viewpoint. I'm in Offensief myself, the Dutch branch of the CWI. The CWI majority has the more orthodox Trotskyist position that the USSR was a degenerated workers' state. I'm not sure if there are organised minority views on it.


My problem with the united front is simply that I have my doubts about whether social-democrats among other are to be trusted, having a history of siding with the forces of reaction.
I tend to agree in our current situation. The united front was proposed in the early 1920's though, when the social-democracy was still a lot more to the left and, crucially, had a lot more workers organisation than today. The basic idea is just that: unite the broadest layer of workers into a united class movement. I don't see that happening with the PvdA these days ;) The SP still has quite some activists though and I think we should keep an open attitude to them, even while the party is basically just shit, both in leadership, in programme and in culture.

[Wanted Man]

Welcome. The Dutch takeover is progressing quickly.

[Veg_Athei_Socialist]

Welcome to Revleft:)!

[Multatulit]

The theory of state-capitalism is mainly associated with the Internationale Socialisten, the Dutch franchise of the UK SWP. Outside the organisation it is a pretty rare viewpoint. I'm in Offensief myself, the Dutch branch of the CWI. The CWI majority has the more orthodox Trotskyist position that the USSR was a degenerated workers' state. I'm not sure if there are organised minority views on it.


I tend to agree in our current situation. The united front was proposed in the early 1920's though, when the social-democracy was still a lot more to the left and, crucially, had a lot more workers organisation than today. The basic idea is just that: unite the broadest layer of workers into a united class movement. I don't see that happening with the PvdA these days ;) The SP still has quite some activists though and I think we should keep an open attitude to them, even while the party is basically just shit, both in leadership, in programme and in culture. Well, the IS is the only branch of Dutch socialists I've come into contact with, through being at the SWP's Marxism '09 and '10 in London. There the sentiment for an united front persists (or at least, in my highly anecdotal encounters with members of the SWP).

[Wanted Man]

Well, the IS is the only branch of Dutch socialists I've come into contact with, through being at the SWP's Marxism '09 and '10 in London. There the sentiment for an united front persists (or at least, in my highly anecdotal encounters with members of the SWP).

Well, that's basically what they're pursuing with initiatives like "Rekening Retour". At a meeting of this initiative, their leading members pretty much explicitly said that they aimed to involve the Labour Party and Green Left as much as possible.

And for sure, it would be good to mobilise some of the base of these parties, but they seem to forget that these parties were more than eager to join a "left-liberal" government together just a few weeks ago, which included raising the pension age and getting rid of student grants.

It appears that these "fronts" are mostly about backing one side of the establishment in order to vote the "evil right-wingers" out of power. This kind of underscores the weak point of the IS.

Anyway, kind of off-topic this, but it's been annoying me for a while.

[Ravachol]

Well, that's basically what they're pursuing with initiatives like "Rekening Retour". At a meeting of this initiative, their leading members pretty much explicitly said that they aimed to involve the Labour Party and Green Left as much as possible.


They honestly said that?! Jesus bloody christ, there I was, nearly wanting to get involved...

Honestly involving the SP is not really something I'd be fond of but at least I could understand the logic behind it. Involving the Labour Party and GreenLeft in anti-cuts protests is just hilarious.



It appears that these "fronts" are mostly about backing one side of the establishment in order to vote the "evil right-wingers" out of power. This kind of underscores the weak point of the IS.


Backing the left-wing of Capital against it's right-wing is still backing Capital... Both ought to be obliterated.



Anyway, kind of off-topic this, but it's been annoying me for a while.

Quite understandably. I figured the 'Greece is Everywhere' initiative would be more up the NCPN/CJB alley actually.


Also: Welcome Multatuli!