"Who" vs. "Whom"

[Buffalo Souljah]

ehem

“Who” and “whoever” are subjective pronouns (http://web.ku.edu/%7Eedit/subjective.html); “whom” and “whomever” are in the objective case (http://www.ku.edu/%7Eedit/objective.html). As simple and important as that distinction is, many people have difficulty deciding on the proper usage of “who” and “whom” in sentences.

The two sentences below illustrate the easy usage in which “who” is clearly the subject and “whom” is clearly the object. In such simple cases, virtually everyone can determine the proper choice:

Who is that masked man?(“Who” / subject)
The men, four of whom are ill, were indicted for fraud. (“whom” / object)

When “who” is not the main subject of the sentence, however, many people become confused. They tinker and change who to “whom.”

It was Thomas Jefferson, I think, who was the third president of the United States.

Notice that “who,” not “whom,” is still the correct form as the subject of the clause that follows. The proper name, Thomas Jefferson, could be substituted for “who” to make a perfectly good sentence:

Thomas Jefferson was the third president of the United States.

As a ready check in such sentences, simply substitute the personal pronoun “he/him” or “she/her” for “who/whom.” If he or she would be the correct form, the proper choice is who.” If “him” or “her” would be correct, use “whom.”
read (http://web.ku.edu/%7Eedit/whom.html)and learn

[anticap]

So what about that thread (http://www.revleft.org/vb/showthread.php?t=139729) I started, which I titled "Who have you thanked most?" and someone changed to "Whom..."?

It could be reworded, like, say, "Of all the people you have thanked, who among them have you thanked most?" "Whom" would sound wrong there. That suggests to me that my title was correct. But I'm sure it could be reworded so as to make "Whom" sound right. So which is it?

[Devrim]

So what about that thread (http://www.revleft.org/vb/showthread.php?t=139729) I started, which I titled "Who have you thanked most?" and someone changed to "Whom..."?


Yes, 'who' is right. 'Whom' would go in a question like 'Whom have you been thanked most by'.

I think in modern English though very few people use 'whom' today. It is a bit old-fashioned.

Devrim

[Lolshevik]

I hate grammatical prescriptivists. (is that the right word / correct usage? See I hate them so much I can't even be bothered to learn the correct term!)

Languages change. Deal with it. English doesn't even have the equivalent of a regulatory body like the Academie Francais, not that having one would be end-all of proper speech...

[Die Neue Zeit]

Is this thread Chit Chat material?

[ContrarianLemming]

Is this thread Chit Chat material?

No, I just learned something.

[khad]

So what about that thread (http://www.revleft.org/vb/showthread.php?t=139729) I started, which I titled "Who have you thanked most?" and someone changed to "Whom..."?

It could be reworded, like, say, "Of all the people you have thanked, who among them have you thanked most?" "Whom" would sound wrong there. That suggests to me that my title was correct. But I'm sure it could be reworded so as to make "Whom" sound right. So which is it?
That article is pretty clear.

"Whom have you thanked" can be written in statement form as "you have thanked whom," and whom in this sense is clearly the object of the verb.


As a ready check in such sentences, simply substitute the personal pronoun “he/him” or “she/her” for “who/whom.” If he or she would be the correct form, the proper choice is who.” If “him” or “her” would be correct, use “whom.” Let's see...

You have thanked he

vs

You have thanked him

pretty obvious, I must say.

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-%22Who%22-and-%22Whom%22-Correctly


Use whom when referring to the object of a verb.

To whom it may concern:
To whom did you talk today?
Whom does Sarah love?


Use who when referring to the subject of a sentence or phrase.

Who brought the paper inside?
Who talked to you today?
Who went to dinner?


Yes, 'who' is right. 'Whom' would go in a question like 'Whom have you been thanked most by'.
Dr. Dev rolls snake eyes.

[jake williams]

As a ready check in such sentences, simply substitute the personal pronoun “he/him” or “she/her” for “who/whom.” If he or she would be the correct form, the proper choice is who.” If “him” or “her” would be correct, use “whom.”
The problem is that who and whom can serve as relative pronouns - for example, in the sentence about Thomas Jefferson - whereas "him" and "her" cannot. This concern is particularly acute because the cases where it serves as a relative pronoun are often the iffier, harder to determine sentences - again, for example, in the Thomas Jefferson sentence.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Abolish Whom! It is only serious for the oldies folk.

[khad]

The problem is that who and whom can serve as relative pronouns - for example, in the sentence about Thomas Jefferson - whereas "him" and "her" cannot. This concern is particularly acute because the cases where it serves as a relative pronoun are often the iffier, harder to determine sentences - again, for example, in the Thomas Jefferson sentence.
That is true. The easiest way would be to rewrite each interrogative as a statement and see whether the "who" or "whom" is in the position of subject or object.

[Revy]

The Learning forum is for learning about relevant issues to the revolutionary left, not a learning forum for things like grammar. Just saying.

Anyway I do not use the word "whom" at all. I also use singular "they", which works great as a gender neutral pronoun.

[Os Cangaceiros]

This is fascinating stuff. Really fascinating.

[Nuvem]

"Whom" is an outdated term, really. It's vanishing from the English language in most places, I don't believe I've ever heard it used outside of a classroom, and even then always in the context of an English teacher lecturing on its proper usage or throwing it emphatically into their speech so as to correct a student or to intentionally be grammatically correct. It's a dying word because it is, quite frankly, much easier to use "who" in all cases since it's phonetically shorter in pronunciation and the vast majority of people won't notice, since most people never use the word "whom". Hell, even my grammar-Nazi girlfriend doesn't use it. All and all it's just a word we rarely hear, and within a few decades quite possibly never will at all. Alas, trying to pin such minute rules on a language as a single extra letter is like trying to win a boxing match against a giant amoeba.

[Revy]

I just don't think it sounds natural to start a question with the word whom. That's the only use of whom I think is pretentious sounding. "Whom are you talking to?" most people would see this as so unnecessary. If you think it's grammatically incorrect to say "Who are you talking to?" then you're just crazy.

[Devrim]

"Whom" is an outdated term, really. It's vanishing from the English language in most places, I don't believe I've ever heard it used outside of a classroom, and even then always in the context of an English teacher lecturing on its proper usage or throwing it emphatically into their speech so as to correct a student or to intentionally be grammatically correct. It's a dying word because it is, quite frankly, much easier to use "who" in all cases since it's phonetically shorter in pronunciation and the vast majority of people won't notice, since most people never use the word "whom". Hell, even my grammar-Nazi girlfriend doesn't use it. All and all it's just a word we rarely hear, and within a few decades quite possibly never will at all.

I agree with most of this. I think that 'whom' will die as shall other grammatical forms in English. Language constantly changes and historically languages that have become the language of Empire simplify. Latin lost four cases in the Roman expansion.

I don't think there is anything wrong with using 'who' all the time, but if you are going to use 'whom', it could at least be used correctly. Especially as often it is being used to sound 'more educated'.

Also in non-English speaking countries it is still a favourite on English exams, which can determine whether people get jobs. In Turkey these sort of things are very popular.

Devrim

[AK]

This thread is lol.

Anyway...
"Learning... A place for beginners and learners to ask their political questions about theory or specific issues. Don't worry if you think your questions are stupid or pointless, ask away. Learning is not stupid and is never pointless."

Emphasis mine.

[M-26-7]

It seems like the only people saying that "whom" is an outdated term are the ones who don't quite understand when to use it. :p Although I do admit, I don't use the word in my everyday spoken language usage.

Is the pronoun replacing the subject or the object? Not that hard really. In the title of anticap's thread, the "who/whom" pronoun was replacing the object (the subject was "you"), so "whom" was clearly correct.

[Buffalo Souljah]

This thread is lol.

Emphasis mine.
I just think it's important to be clear about it because it's a stumbling block for most people. How you gonna have a revolution if you can't even speak propa Engrish, as in "English mothafucka, do you speak it??"

or to intentionally be grammatically correct
what's wrong with spaykin raaight, orr shud wEy AwL tAwk LaiK tHaYT?:confused: