Why do Marxists insist that people work?

[know2b]

I want to know why Marxists judge those who refuse to work. I can't find the quote right now but Marx said that working for a capitalist reproduces him as well as yourself.

I understand this attitude under socialism but not under capitalism. Why shouldn't I go on the dole? I don't want to help perpetuate capitalism any more.

Does this attitude of Marxists qualify as fetishism of work?

[Adil3tr]

Ummm... What?
You kind of have to work to survive...
If you don;t want to work, why don't you join the comrades in Nepal, there isn;t a whole lot else you can do...
:confused:

[Lenina Rosenweg]

The vast majority of the world's population do not have much of a choice in the matter. Anyway work is a social activity in which "man fufills his species being", the activity in which people create themselves. The problem isn't labor, its alienating labor in which work is divorced from its intrinsic meaning.

There is a current in Marxism which criticizes the capitalistic fetishism of work for the sake of work. Paul Lafargue wrote "The Right To Be Lazy" and an Indian left communist group, Kommunist Kranti, has '"The Ballad Against Work". Both these are on line somewhere.

In the former Soviet Union it was actually against the law not to work, it was assumed that someone who didn't work was either involved in criminal activity or was living off someone else. They were considered to be a "social parasite". Of course there was also a huge amount of disguised unemployment and "make work" jobs too.

[Peace on Earth]

I'm not familiar with Marx's views on the subject, but I'll give mine. First off, it depends what you mean by "work." If you use the traditional definition of wage labor, then I don't see why not working is looked down upon. But while not engaging in wage labor, one must use their talents to be productive or contribute to something else. This could be charitable work, helping a social movement, etc. Sitting in front of the television and believing you're a true revolutionary for fucking the system is, in plain words, lame.

[know2b]

Adil3tr: I don't have to. I can go on the dole.

Lenina Rosenweg: I understand that we fulfill our true selves through what we do. And I would expect everyone to contribute under socialism. But we have capitalism, and Marx said that when I work under capitalism I perpetuate it.

I also understand that not everyone has the luxury of going on the dole. But I do, and I don't think I should let that moral argument sway me from taking Marx's non-moral argument seriously.

Peace on Earth: Why must I? You didn't give a reason. I wouldn't think of it as revolutionary to go on the dole. I would think of it as trying to avoid helping to perpetuate capitalism.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I want to know why Marxists judge those who refuse to work. I can't find the quote right now but Marx said that working for a capitalist reproduces him as well as yourself.I don't know exactly what you are talking about, but I think Marx may have been talking about how a worker's labor reproduces the wealth necessary for both the worker's own wage as well as the profit for the boss.


I understand this attitude under socialism but not under capitalism. Why shouldn't I go on the dole? I don't want to help perpetuate capitalism any more.Or, more to the point, why work for a boss and be exploited if you don't have to. There's nothing wrong with this attitude. We don't really have very good welfare or unemployment in the US and it's all but impossible to survive on what little you can get from it (the short amount of time you are eligible for it), but if you don't have to work, why do it under present circumstances? Exploitation is a shitty deal!


Does this attitude of Marxists qualify as fetishism of work?I think in the leaders in the so-called "socialist" countries that were trying to force people to work in order to build up national industry and production, they "fetishized" work and glorified labor for the same exact reasons that capitalists do... so that we'd do the labor and shut up about it and feel like there is something wrong with us if we don't want to work.

[know2b]

I don't know exactly what you are talking about, but I think Marx may have been talking about how a worker's labor reproduces the wealth necessary for both the worker's own wage as well as the profit for the boss.

Yes. But even without the exact quotes I don't think anyone would disagree that capitalism can only continue if we keep going to work for capitalists. We do it to get a wage so we can reproduce ourselves, but that also reproduces the very system that forces us into that position. Capitalists don't reproduce themselves, they sponge off our surplus.

Capitalism can't exist without capitalists, but capitalists can't exist without wage workers. So the blame for our condition rests on us, not them. They put the system into motion, but we keep it moving.


Or, more to the point, why work for a boss and be exploited if you don't have to. There's nothing wrong with this attitude. We don't really have very good welfare or unemployment in the US and it's all but impossible to survive on what little you can get from it (the short amount of time you are eligible for it), but if you don't have to work, why do it under present circumstances? Exploitation is a shitty deal!

Thank you Jimmie. I feel validated. I usually get called a sponge for talking about this.

I could probably acquire the skills to work for myself through programs while on the dole. I understand that working for ourselves or forming cooperatives under capitalism will never abolish it. We must seize power and abolish it that way. But I can't stand knowing that I keep the system in motion by showing up for work.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Yes. But even without the exact quotes I don't think anyone would disagree that capitalism can only continue if we keep going to work for capitalists. We do it to get a wage so we can reproduce ourselves, but that also reproduces the very system that forces us into that position. Capitalists don't reproduce themselves, they sponge off our surplus.

Capitalism can't exist without capitalists, but capitalists can't exist without wage workers. So the blame for our condition rests on us, not them. They put the system into motion, but we keep it moving.

No, the blame still rests on them. Capitalists just didn't spring out of the ground one day and start offering peasants the choice of working for them or remaining in the service of the feudal lord... the capitalists forcibly and systematically removed all other options for self-production: enclosures, vagrancy laws, tresspassing laws, workhouses and so on. They did that in Europe and they did that (and are doing that) all over the world.

So really we are not given a choice but to work in the long term - particularly if you lived in Marx's day when there was no public safty net, or in the modern US where the unemployment payments or monthly dole (if you can get it) = about 1/4th of the cost of renting an apartment in a slum.

But you are correct that the capitalists can not keep their system in motion without us, they can not ultimately produce capital without exploiting us. But "not-working" will never work as a strategy for us all even if a few of us can do it from time to time as individuals. Since capitalism is a collective system, individual attempts at challenging it are really just pissing in the ocean. But if we are organized and ALL decide to stop working, then we have a strike and that is our most powerful weapon... on a bigger scale, a general strike and the potential to shut down the whole system and start doing things on our own terms.

[Peace on Earth]

Peace on Earth: Why must I? You didn't give a reason. I wouldn't think of it as revolutionary to go on the dole. I would think of it as trying to avoid helping to perpetuate capitalism.
I'm not familiar with the phrase "go on the dole." But as long as you do something productive, instead of sitting around eating chips all day, I'm fine with you not working in the sense of wage labor.

[Die Neue Zeit]

One of the demands in the Communist Manifesto calls for an obligation for all to work, but earlier in the text there is a contrast between those who have to work for a living and those who, by virtue of property ownership, don't have to.

[Optiow]

If you do not work in a capitalist society, how the hell are you going to be any help in a socialist one?

[AK]

Capitalism can't exist without capitalists, but capitalists can't exist without wage workers. So the blame for our condition rests on us, not them. They put the system into motion, but we keep it moving.
Yeah, fuck us! It's our fault that capitalism turned out like this because we worked in order to receive a wage which we used to pay for things which let us survive.

But seriously, last I could recall, workers didn't choose their own wages or their positions in the workplace. We can't really be held to blame; it was the capitalists (as well as our managers) that choose our wages and positions. They are at fault. Or are you suggesting this could all be averted if we took up some weird hippy-lifestylist ideas and made a living through a whole separate mode of production?

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

Work builds character.

[bailey_187]

lol at thinking you not working is at all socialist

people are unemployed right now and have to be on the dole because of the recession, you intentionally being a lazy fucker means they (the people on the dole not through choice) are demonised too :mad:

[Qayin]

Work builds character.

Sweat fetishist

[bailey_187]

besides, its the participation in large scale work places that creates socialist class conciousness. if everyone stopped working, yeah capitalism would fail, but a working class revolution would not follow because there wouldnt be a fucking working class

[bricolage]

Go on the dole if you want, noone will hold it against you, although you will find out that you'll be living off not very much money and eventually they'll make you going on training courses which is effectively working but for dole money. Unemployed life isn't very fun.

That being said the right not to work is and should be a socialist demand.

[bricolage]

if everyone stopped working, yeah capitalism would fail, but a working class revolution would not follow because there wouldnt be a fucking working class
Aren't you essentially just describing a general strike?

[bailey_187]

Aren't you essentially just describing a general strike?

No, workers downing tools is not the same as saying "i dont want to work" and going on the dole

[costello1977]

Is this guy for real?

If your not going to work, how are you going to have shelter? Or how would you prepare food? How would you procure food? Osmosis?

Lets face up to the facts, you would need to be incredibly naive to think that a socialist future could include a class who don't want to work. Everyone would have their role, their job in society and would be expected to fulfill this role to their fullest ability.

[bricolage]

No, workers downing tools is not the same as saying "i dont want to work" and going on the dole
Still though I don't think there is anything glorious or commendable about the work ethic that has been ingrained by capitalism. When you see people here talking about how everyone should work for the simple fact of not being 'lazy' and saying how everyone would be forced to work under socialism, you wonder what kind of socialism they are fighting for. I think it's Gorz who framed emancipation as the 'abolition of work and the liberation of time' and I think that still stands.

Everyone going on the dole is a hypothetical situation that could never and will never occur but everyone refusing to work is. I know my comparison was a bit off and I meant it to be in a way, I think I was just trying to counter those who argue 'everyone must work' by asking how the propose to get any change and what that change would actually be. Capitalism in many ways is defined by 'work', that being the process where you must engage in labour and sell your labour power in order to access the means of survival. Communism is about the abolition of work so I find it disconcerting when supposed communists talk about working after the revolution.

[Thirsty Crow]

No, workers downing tools is not the same as saying "i dont want to work" and going on the dole
Have you even read OP's explanation of his/her decision?
If there were significantly more working people who would make such a decision from a position like this one - the bosses would have a neat little general strike, which also implies a serious rise in class consciousness.

That being said, I don't think anyone should reproach OP or anyone who despises work under current conditions.

[bailey_187]

Have you even read OP's explanation of his/her decision?
If there were significantly more working people who would make such a decision from a position like this one - the bosses would have a neat little general strike, which also implies a serious rise in class consciousness.

That being said, I don't think anyone should reproach OP or anyone who despises work under current conditions.

No, a strike is workers withdrawing their labour. The OP does not have a job and has no intention of getting one. its not the same.

[Salmonella]

Some people can't work, people with diseases etc.
I think they must be healed and not work.

[bailey_187]

Some people can't work, people with diseases etc.
I think they must be healed and not work.

that goes without saying though

[Kayser_Soso]

Some people can't work, people with diseases etc.
I think they must be healed and not work.

The problem isn't people who can't work, but people who demand a part of what society has produced without taking any part in the production, in other words- capitalists. Even a pensioner, who doesn't work, has at least paid into the system. When people work under socialism, a certain amount of wealth is deducted into the social welfare system. This really isn't expropriation because it comes back to the worker in the form of benefits which they would need anyway. Everyone needs healthcare at one time or another, everyone needs the roads, the power grid, etc. Everyone needs a pension if they aren't going to go on working till death.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

If you are able to go on the dole and have a lifestyle which is comfortable for you, then there is nothing wrong with this. I suspect though you will be spending your time doing something which is meaningful for you-music, photography, writing, activism, travel (and writing about it), learning a computer language, some expression of creativity. This is far more meaningful than wage slavery, doing something you don't care about just to afford rent and groceries.

Marx himself never had a "real job", except briefly as a newspaper editor. There's a story that he interviewed for a job selling train tickets at a railroad station when he lived in London. His appearance at the time-long hair, a humongous beard,and probably scruffy clothes, scared the hell out of people and he didn't get the job. He went back to writing Capital. A far more meaningful contribution to the world than selling tickets for the 5.15 to Stratford.

[Obs]

OP confirmed for lumpen.

[know2b]

Jimmie Higgins:
Capitalists just didn't spring out of the ground one day and start offering peasants the choice of working for them or remaining in the service of the feudal lord... the capitalists forcibly and systematically removed all other options for self-production: enclosures, vagrancy laws, tresspassing laws, workhouses and so on. They did that in Europe and they did that (and are doing that) all over the world.

I know. I referred to all that when I said they put the system into motion. But they don't keep it in motion, we do. They can't keep it in motion because they don't work. We keep it in motion under duress, but that doesn't alter the point. We don't have to submit.

Peace on Earth:
I'm not familiar with the phrase "go on the dole." But as long as you do something productive, instead of sitting around eating chips all day, I'm fine with you not working in the sense of wage labor.

It can mean different things, depending on the available programs where you live. In short it means collecting a check from the government which will barely provide for your needs. You wouldn't go to work every day, but that doesn't mean you'd sit around eating chips all day. Personally, I would take advantage of any available government programs for people on the dole to acquire the skills to eventually work for myself.

Die Neue Zeit:
One of the demands in the Communist Manifesto calls for an obligation for all to work, but earlier in the text there is a contrast between those who have to work for a living and those who, by virtue of property ownership, don't have to.

If I understand your point, you mean that they aimed their call for obligation at those who sponge off the surplus, not those who provide it. I agree with that. No one should oblige me to provide my boss with his mansion, just as no one should oblige a serf to provide the king with his castle or the slave to provide the plantation owner with his manor.

Optiow:
If you do not work in a capitalist society, how the hell are you going to be any help in a socialist one?

I already said that I understand this attitude under socialism but not under capitalism and that I would expect everyone to contribute under socialism. Do you not understand the difference between the two systems?

AK:
Yeah, fuck us! It's our fault that capitalism turned out like this because we worked in order to receive a wage which we used to pay for things which let us survive.

I didn't frame it the way you did. I framed it the way Marx did. We reproduce the capitalist along with ourselves. Do you disagree with this? If so please explain how the capitalist perpetuates himself without us.


are you suggesting this could all be averted if we took up some weird hippy-lifestylist ideas and made a living through a whole separate mode of production?

I don't hold hippy-lifestylist ideas, but I do advocate a whole separate mode of production, called socialism.

Comrade Marxist Bro:
Work builds character.

I don't hold to Christian ethics. Everyone has character. Mine comes from my opposition to capitalism. What about you? Does yours come from reproducing capitalism on a daily basis?

bailey_187:
lol at thinking you not working is at all socialist

Where did I say that? I said what Marx said, that working for a capitalist reproduces capitalism. And I don't want to do that anymore.


you intentionally being a lazy fucker

Why would you call me a lazy fucker without knowing anything about me except what I've said here? Nothing I've said here justifies that comment. I said that I intend to use my time on the dole constructively so that I can eventually provide for myself without providing a boss with surplus every day and paying his mortgage for him. I don't see a revolution brewing so I can't do much else but remove myself from that equation at least.


if everyone stopped working, yeah capitalism would fail, but a working class revolution would not follow because there wouldnt be a fucking working class

Everyone can't stop working. But everyone can stop working for capitalists. When people do that, we call it a strike. Strikers don't sit around and do nothing, they usually provide for each other's needs. Sound familiar?


workers downing tools is not the same as saying "i dont want to work" and going on the dole

I do want to work, just not for a capitalist. I've explained why.


The OP does not have a job and has no intention of getting one.

Yes I do have a job and no I don't have any intention of getting another one once I acquire the skills to begin working for myself.

bricolage:
they'll make you going on training courses

I want to go on training courses, if I can choose ones that will eventually allow me to acquire the skills to work for myself.


That being said the right not to work is and should be a socialist demand.


I don't think there is anything glorious or commendable about the work ethic that has been ingrained by capitalism. When you see people here talking about how everyone should work for the simple fact of not being 'lazy' and saying how everyone would be forced to work under socialism, you wonder what kind of socialism they are fighting for.


Communism is about the abolition of work so I find it disconcerting when supposed communists talk about working after the revolution.

I agree with all that. Thank you bricolage for your serious comments.

costello1977:
Is this guy for real?

Yes.


If your not going to work, how are you going to have shelter? Or how would you prepare food? How would you procure food? Osmosis?

I could go on the dole. I've said this several times.


Lets face up to the facts, you would need to be incredibly naive to think that a socialist future could include a class who don't want to work. Everyone would have their role, their job in society and would be expected to fulfill this role to their fullest ability.

And I've said that myself and agreed with it several times when others have repeated it.

You've made the mistake of thinking that I mean socialism when I say capitalism. Either that or you can't separate the two in your own mind.

Menocchio:
Have you even read OP's explanation of his/her decision?

It appears that only a minority of respondents have done so.


I don't think anyone should reproach OP or anyone who despises work under current conditions.

Thank you Menocchio.

Salmonella:
Some people can't work, people with diseases etc.
I think they must be healed and not work.

I agree. Under socialism we will have many people who can't work. And they shouldn't have to. We should take care of them. Like Kayser_Soso said. But those who can contribute in some way, should. But that will happen naturally under socialism because the form of production will look nothing like capitalism. People will do what they enjoy and contribute it freely to the community. That can't happen under capitalist production. It has to happen either outside it, or after its abolition.

The attitude in this thread shows that many people think we should behave the same under capitalism as under socialism. I don't think we should. I don't think we can.

Lenina Rosenweg: I enjoyed your last post.

Obsmagon: Lumping me in with the lumpen doesn't make sense, for the reasons I've already given.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Every working class person will have rights and responsibilites in a socialist society. Each individual will have the right to a roof overtheir head, enough food to eat, a free health system and a comprehensive education system etc. Each individual will also have a responsibility to contribute to society to the best of their ability.

On a personal level, work is important for each indivdual. Work creates and contributes to discipline, to helping indivduals manage their lives, to facilitating the maximisation of talents etc. Work is also important for individuals as a source of social contact. Humans are social animals who need contact with other individuals. The majority of friends that individuals have tend to be workmates or people who work in similar type professions. Work contributes to the social development of individuals.

Do we need to work 40 or 50 or 60 hours a week. Of course not. The currently level of the world economy could easily slash the working week to 20 hours for everyone on the planet (allowing for greater socialisation, education etc.). But no matter how much the working week can be reduced, each individual needs work for their personal wellbeing and for societal wellbeing (and I am talking about a socialsit society).

[know2b]

I agree with all that.

Working for yourself doesn't necessarily mean working in isolation.

[Magón]

You could work for one of those Green Organizations, that aren't on a corporate level like Apple or Walmart or whatever. They hardly put more money into the system than they need to because if they don't, they get the IRS on their ass and bam, no more Green Organization. The excess of their funds go back into the company, so they can make a better whatever it is next year or next week. Whichever is easier.

Or just a non-profit group/store?

[know2b]

I don't suppose I could get one of those jobs as easily as standard capitalist wage work, but I'll keep that in mind as well.