Scottish Socialism

[Exasperated_Youth]

Is Scottish socialism going anywhere? The main socialist parties here are pro-independence, which I'm not entirely sure would be productive, as we do benefit financially from Westminster. Socialism would require a fair bit of cash to implement, I reckon, so should Scottish socialists be more positive in their attitude to the union, and use their influence to try and bring about British socialism?
If you think Scottish socialism has a future, which party do you favour, if any? What do you think is the best way forward? Merging the parties, starting a new one, what?
I'm almost certain to get a bashing from those that reject action within parliament, but be honest... A revolution isn't possible or practical right now. I'd like to keep to my point.

[zubovskyblvd]

Well, the Scottish Socialist Party had 6 MSP's until the Tommy Sheridan libel case caused the SSP/Solidarity split, and following that the votes of both parties have gone through the floor- it seems to have become a race between Labour and the SNP, which suggests that the 'parliamentary route' may have run its course in Scotland. And the pro-independence movement arguably takes away from the class struggle that socialists should be discussing.

[Exasperated_Youth]

Well, the Scottish Socialist Party had 6 MSP's until the Tommy Sheridan libel case caused the SSP/Solidarity split, and following that the votes of both parties have gone through the floor- it seems to have become a race between Labour and the SNP, which suggests that the 'parliamentary route' may have run its course in Scotland. And the pro-independence movement arguably takes away from the class struggle that socialists should be discussing.

We should just give up then? I don't follow. Simply because the parties have lost votes does not mean that parliament is no longer viable. Revolution certainly isn't.
That's a good point about the pro-independence movement though, thanks.

[Radek]

Well, the Scottish Socialist Party had 6 MSP's until the Tommy Sheridan libel case caused the SSP/Solidarity split, and following that the votes of both parties have gone through the floor- it seems to have become a race between Labour and the SNP, which suggests that the 'parliamentary route' may have run its course in Scotland.
I'm not sure where you draw this conclusion from. If a low vote meant that the using parliament no longer served a purpose, then it should have been considered exhausted just about everywhere for most of history. And as Exasperated Youth alludes to, it would also mean that socialism in general should be considered exhausted.

The SNP, Tories and Lib Dems are falling in the polls, and Labour are only seeing a surge in their vote due to being the natural opposition to the Tories. The atmosphere is ripe for socialists to make inroads (either at Holyrood in 2011 or the council elections in 2012), if only we could stop shooting ourselves in the foot for 10 minutes. Unfortunately we will continue to do so in in the immediate future. The Sheridan perjury case starts in September and is expected to last about 3 months. Throughout this time we can expect both Solidarity and the SSP to be slaughtered by the press.

The case has been dragging on for years and has had the important secondary effect of preventing any official discussion on left-unity, both due to the arguments involved and, more significantly, due to lawyers' advice (many leading members are witnesses/defendants in the trial).

Once the case is out of the way the road will be much clearer and hopefully we should begin to capitalise. With Scotland set to be hit even harder than the rest of the UK with the cuts, I am hopeful that socialism will indeed 'go somewhere' over the next couple of years.

As far as independence goes, the question of money is more complicated than it's usually portrayed. The point brought up is that Scotland is allocated more money than it contributes, but, for example, the estimates reported in the news don't include revenue from North Sea oil. The SNP completely reverses the attack and claims that Scotland actually subsidises England.

However, this is all a bit misleading, since a socialist Scotland would run the economy, the welfare system and spending generally very differently -- saving a lot of money in some places and spending a lot in others. As a result, even if the UK does subsidise Scotland it'd be rather arbitrary to suggest that independence would therefore make socialism impossible (is there a specific threshold that we pass to make it possible?).

I tried (albeit in a rambling and amateurish fashion) to lay out some of the other independence arguments in the following post: revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1824523&postcount=31

[Wanted Man]

I agree that Scottish independence is rather silly for socialists to argue for. It would be extremely naive to think that it would be in any way "socialist" except for in the imaginations of Scottish socialists. Still, it is not openly reactionary like, say, Flemish separatism; it has some potentially progressive consequences, and some retrograde ones. Frankly, I can think of worse problems facing the Scottish socialists at the moment. Whether independence happens or not, there is room for socialists to fill. Not supporting independence does not automatically mean having to support hardcore British unionism.

I'm not sure what the actual prospects for independence are at the moment, but it can have benefits either way. If no referendum is forthcoming, Scottish socialists can agitate against this kind of cowardice by the ruling-class, and point out that the SNP asking for independence "pretty please?" is not working out very well. If independence does happen, they can agitate against any anti-social policies that may follow.

As someone pointed out above, a bigger problem for the socialists is the constant shooting themselves in the foot. It's hard to judge from here, but it seems like the SSP actually had some amount of base support, something to work with. This is quite remarkable in itself, because most of these "united left" electoral projects are purely bastions of opportunism, grouping a bunch of marginal leftist groups together with no real perspective. The SSP seemed to be something more than that, but in the end, in-fighting and schisms occurred nevertheless.

So anyway, whether it is the SSP or Solidarity or another party, whether they back independence or not, there is sure to be a lot of space on the left in Scotland, and it would be a waste if nobody was able to do something with it.

[Exasperated_Youth]

I agree that Scottish independence is rather silly for socialists to argue for. It would be extremely naive to think that it would be in any way "socialist" except for in the imaginations of Scottish socialists.

...

I'm not sure what the actual prospects for independence are at the moment, but it can have benefits either way. If no referendum is forthcoming, Scottish socialists can agitate against this kind of cowardice by the ruling-class, and point out that the SNP asking for independence "pretty please?" is not working out very well. If independence does happen, they can agitate against any anti-social policies that may follow.

...

So anyway, whether it is the SSP or Solidarity or another party, whether they back independence or not, there is sure to be a lot of space on the left in Scotland, and it would be a waste if nobody was able to do something with it.

So should Scottish socialists try for reforms in devolved matters? Or actively try to pressure Westminster parties?

You think we shouldn't argue for socialism, but allow the people to decide? Just clarifying here, sounds pretty fair to me.

What do you reckon is the best way to take advantage of this "space"? A new party, an amalgamation of current parties, or for one party to take the lead?

[Dr Mindbender]

I agree that Scottish independence is rather silly for socialists to argue for. It would be extremely naive to think that it would be in any way "socialist" except for in the imaginations of Scottish socialists. Still, it is not openly reactionary like, say, Flemish separatism; it has some potentially progressive consequences, and some retrograde ones. Frankly, I can think of worse problems facing the Scottish socialists at the moment. Whether independence happens or not, there is room for socialists to fill. Not supporting independence does not automatically mean having to support hardcore British unionism.

I'm not sure what the actual prospects for independence are at the moment, but it can have benefits either way. If no referendum is forthcoming, Scottish socialists can agitate against this kind of cowardice by the ruling-class, and point out that the SNP asking for independence "pretty please?" is not working out very well. If independence does happen, they can agitate against any anti-social policies that may follow.

As someone pointed out above, a bigger problem for the socialists is the constant shooting themselves in the foot. It's hard to judge from here, but it seems like the SSP actually had some amount of base support, something to work with. This is quite remarkable in itself, because most of these "united left" electoral projects are purely bastions of opportunism, grouping a bunch of marginal leftist groups together with no real perspective. The SSP seemed to be something more than that, but in the end, in-fighting and schisms occurred nevertheless.

So anyway, whether it is the SSP or Solidarity or another party, whether they back independence or not, there is sure to be a lot of space on the left in Scotland, and it would be a waste if nobody was able to do something with it.

I can think of one big progressive gain from Scottish independence.

The breakup of the British union would have the knock on effect of undermining England's foothold in Ireland. Ulster Unionism stems almost entirely from connections to Scottish culture (hence the term Ulster-Scots). Without Scotland's participation in the UK, There is no mandate for British rule in Ireland.

If you don't believe me come to Belfast during the summer and you will see on every unionist street the saltire flying alongside the red hand.

[Exasperated_Youth]

I can think of one big progressive gain from Scottish independence.

The breakup of the British union would have the knock on effect of undermining England's foothold in Ireland. Ulster Unionism stems almost entirely from connections to Scottish culture (hence the term Ulster-Scots). Without Scotland's participation in the UK, There is no mandate for British rule in Ireland.

If you don't believe me come to Belfast during the summer and you will see on every unionist street the saltire flying alongside the red hand.

Where would you have it go from there? A united Ireland? I'm not entirely sure about the politics of ROI, are they generally more leftist or rightist?

[Dr Mindbender]

Where would you have it go from there? A united Ireland? I'm not entirely sure about the politics of ROI, are they generally more leftist or rightist?

its not really the point, there is no progressive argument for the continuation of british rule in Ireland.

[Exasperated_Youth]

That was a sincere question, I wasn't looking to pick holes. Was just wondering.

[Cencus]

its not really the point, there is no progressive argument for the continuation of british rule in Ireland.

The fact that the majority of those who vote in Northern Ireland actually vote for parties who support ramaing part of the union.

The Westminster parties have been trying to get out of Ulster for the last few decades whilst saving face, all they are waiting for is the day they can hold a referendum that will give a definite yes to uniting Ireland. Give it a few years and it will happen.

Anyway back to Scotland. The reason the socialist parties support independance is that a lot of the working class up here have a strong anti-westminster feeling, often spilling into straight out anti English views.

The Scots were particularly hard hit by Thatcher's decimation of nationalised industries, got the poll tax a year early, funded the Lawson boom via the oil industry, which just added to the resentment.

Politicly the result of an independant Scotland would be a further swing to the right south of the border. Currently Scotland is a guarenteed 50 seats in Westminster for Labour, making Tory wins easier. That leaves the English working class even more at the mercy of that particular bunch of lying thieving scumbags.

[Boyle1888]

What I've thought would be interesting in an independant Scotland would be the re-organisation of the parties.

For example, assuming that once Scotland is independant the SNP would break up- New parties would be formed/ joined by people previously in the SNP. I'm sure there will be some leftys in the SNP ranks aswell as Labour/ Greens who could form a sizeable "united left coalition" With the SSP/ Solidarity. Too many ifs and maybes?

Along with the fact that an indepandant scotland would probably further the case for a united Ireland and the fact that the Tories would never get in power makes me lean towards supporting independance.

[Exasperated_Youth]

What I've thought would be interesting in an independant Scotland would be the re-organisation of the parties.

For example, assuming that once Scotland is independant the SNP would break up- New parties would be formed/ joined by people previously in the SNP. I'm sure there will be some leftys in the SNP ranks aswell as Labour/ Greens who could form a sizeable "united left coalition" With the SSP/ Solidarity. Too many ifs and maybes?

Along with the fact that an indepandant scotland would probably further the case for a united Ireland and the fact that the Tories would never get in power makes me lean towards supporting independance.

The SNP wouldn't break up. Why should they? They want independence, but that's just a step on the road towards a better Scotland, in their eyes at least. Independence isn't their only goal, and I'd be shocked if they broke up if/when they achieve it.

I can't see the SSP and Solidarity merging any time soon, as they only split recently. Labour as a party has drifted towards the centre, but I can't see many leaving for a united left project.

Do most people agree that a united left party would be best in Scotland or would in-fighting cause it to fall apart too quickly to get much done?

[Jolly Red Giant]

There is no mandate for British rule in Ireland.

Are you suggesting the Brits ever needed a mandate? :rolleyes:


I agree that Scottish independence is rather silly for socialists to argue for.
Socialists should always supprt the right of peoples to self determination. Would an independent capitalism Scotland be any different than now - of course not. But ignoring or failing to recognise the desire among sections of teh Scottish working class for independence would cut socialists off from those sections. Support the right of self-determination for the Scottish working class and then campaign for the building of a socialist Scotland.

[Dr Mindbender]

Are you suggesting the Brits ever needed a mandate? :rolleyes:


I think its unfair to tar the Scottish with the same brush. The occupation in Ireland is born of Anglo-centricism but the scottish cultural links are exploited as its rationale both by Westminster and by home grown unionists.