Post Revolution ideas for the state

[Conquer or Die]

"After the revolution the state will whither away!"

Cool beans, until then:

After a system of labor vouchers are installed to reject exploitation of human activity based on gaining excess value (thus destroying all forms of social life known as Feudalism, Corporatism, Capitalism, and all the rest exploitative economic forms) there will need to be a way to have Teachers, Doctors, Soldiers, Police, Technocrats, and Maintenance workers paid for their service.

My suggestion is this; labor vouchers will be paid in full to a certain limit. All excess labor hours with which to accrue additional real value will have a small flat tax imposed in order to sustain non-productive sectors of the economy who fulfill necessary roles.

The logic is thus:
Keep what you work for in total in order to sustain yourself. If you so choose to work more you'll have some of that labor taken for the formation of complimentary specialist roles in the economy that are under conditions to perform objective tasks. If you so choose only to work to provide for yourself then you accept the specialist task of managing and technocracy. Since actions will be local and individual, the formation of your government will be based on how it chooses to deal with the above labor excess.

Since labor is in control (finally) and management will be local (finally), the state will whither away over the course of time but it will likely happen under such a condition in which the workers can reasonably work out management for themselves. The specialist roles will be the public dole and controlled by the community's own decisions.

[Dermezel]

Hmm, lots of ideas. Since labor is no longer the standard of value, and the State functions on Norms and Utility the sky is the limit:

1- Post-Trade Societies: Societies just share science/tech/material with each other (like Napster/Bit Torrent) . All experience overall net gain. Like the USSR did with China for a brief time.

2- Super-Free Cultures: 24/hour Ren-Faire/Steam Punk/Anime Con/Rave/Goth/Comic Con/etc. type socities. Whatever people imagine and want to live in. Even pure research societies. Like say a society of kooks that 100% studies time, and lives in an area. These things will no longer be restricted by profit and there will be an abundance of resources.

3- Blending of humanity and machinery and biosynthetic organisms. Man will "play God" and create all sorts of craziness. Awesome.

Pretty much you do more then whatever you want, because you can easily find and work with a community of like minded people.

You may live hundreds, thousands, maybe endless years doing whatever you want. One day you decide to live in the Ren. Fest culture for a few decades, and then you get bored and decide to join the crazy people exploring the fabric of space, and then maybe, the Neo-Tribals in a Pandora type world. You will live a full and varied life, free from labor or profit, etc.

It may not make up for the suffering of the past but it is a good step none the less.

[Skooma Addict]

Dermezel, are you joking or are you being serious?

[Dermezel]

Dermezel, are you joking or are you being serious?

Completely serious. Society not barred by labor and resources, mostly AI/robotic run. Could do anything. People would get really creative. hedonistic imperative (http://www.hedweb.com/).

[Ele'ill]

Maybe I'm going insane- and it's not that this is a new idea or anything- but I'm glad I'm not the only one that just wants to have fun for the rest of my life after the revolution.

[BuddhaInBabylon]

you will die long before you see a decade of ren faire life. wake up.
i don't mean to destroy your dreams, but your irrationality is an impediment to a meaningful change.

[Dermezel]

Maybe I'm going insane- and it's not that this is a new idea or anything- but I'm glad I'm not the only one that just wants to have fun for the rest of my life after the revolution.

But you won't just be having fun. There will be cultures/societies devoted to pure research, exploration, and innovation. Like Star Trek. Why do you hate Star Trek?

[Dermezel]

I mean would you rather stay this: http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q289/Dermezel/ferengi-ethics.jpg

[Dermezel]

you will die long before you see a decade of ren faire life. wake up.
i don't mean to destroy your dreams, but your irrationality is an impediment to a meaningful change.

I disagree. It is more then possible with our technology, I don't think you realize how far our technology actually is.

[Ele'ill]

I picture Dinotopia-

http://www.dinotopia.com/images/art/windmill_village.jpg

Breathe deep - Seek peace

http://needcoffee.cachefly.net/needcoffee/uploads/2008/08/dinotopia4.jpg

[Dermezel]

I picture Dinotopia-

http://www.dinotopia.com/images/art/windmill_village.jpg

Breathe deep - Seek peace

http://needcoffee.cachefly.net/needcoffee/uploads/2008/08/dinotopia4.jpg

Whatever floats your boat man.

[Ele'ill]

I think with our technology we could have much shorter work days- on average- but I don't think we can rely completely on the people that enjoy working to run the show. They'd have immense power and if a triceratops wandered into their technocratic neo-ion fields one more time they'd have their gerbils strike and occupy the factory. In which case our toilets wouldn't flush or something.

The point is- hard work that actually accomplishes a social justice worthy goal- and maintains it- is very important- and feels good.

But your scenario sounds great!

[Dermezel]

I think with our technology we could have much shorter work days- on average- but I don't think we can rely completely on the people that enjoy working to run the show.

Okay yes. But that is ignoring the inefficiencies of the system. If the system was running at 100% efficiency, with planning and socialism (meaning people did not need jobs to live but would get free income) the technology would accelerate dramatically. So like say, after socialism, in 10 years we could do that. Easy.

As for hard work, it is morally admirable but doesn't have mystical powers. Many people work hard in sweatshops and get nowhere. You can work super-hard against an incoming tank and just get squished. Hard work is not supernatural and is to be avoided if possible. I believe in smart work.

[BuddhaInBabylon]

maybe i'm just jaded from actually having to bust my ass my whole life and work my hands and back until the former is peeling and raw and the latter aches every morning; but i have no patience for fantasy like this. I mean, yea in a stateless society with no money, no hierarchies, no classes, no oppression, maybe we could get some stuff done, but the idea of thousands of trekkies and LARP'ers, playing out meaningless scenarios for the next forty years while others make meaningful contributions to the people through real and productive work that requires skill and effort, i just can't abide.

[Dermezel]

maybe i'm just jaded from actually having to bust my ass my whole life and work my hands and back until the former is peeling and raw and the latter aches every morning; but i have no patience for fantasy like this. I mean, yea in a stateless society with no money, no hierarchies, no classes, no oppression, maybe we could get some stuff done, but the idea of thousands of trekkies and LARP'ers, playing out meaningless scenarios for the next forty years while others make meaningful contributions to the people through real and productive work that requires skill and effort, i just can't abide.

You know I don't believe you because I am a guy who has actually busted my ass off and broken bones and bled at work. Who gives a shit?

When I worked my ass off- really worked- a LARP was fucking heaven. I could do it forever.

Work sucks. You get hurt, you are tired, you risk your life, and the bosses push you around. You like that? If you like that you are crazy.

A con, a larp, a fest compared to twisting fucking screws so much your fucking index finger breaks and you can't use it again?! Cleaning "accidentally thrown away parts" in coolant with shitty gloves? Chiseling rust off metal tools, all sparking, bit by bit? Fucking dealing with grease on machines then sawing wooden boards so your entire fucking body is covered with wood chips like you are tar and feathered? Yeah- fuck Comic Con- I'm going to get fucking wood chips glued all over my body for hours without food or water! Hell yeah!

Yeah a Ren Fest sounds real horrible compared to that. Someone save me! Someone save me from too much money, too much good drugs and food and too much free time! Too many hot girls and free sex! Oh the horrors!

[Conquer or Die]

What the fuck happened to this thread?

[BuddhaInBabylon]

i can see i've struck a nerve with my comment on your comment and i didn't mean for you to take exception even though i admit i may have typed it to sting a little...but i wanted to make a point....You forget that after the fall, there won't BE bosses treating you like shit.
I don't like getting hurt, i don't like risking my life, and no i don't particularly like to be tired. A substantial percentage of work related accidents happen because people are rushing trying to make a deadline that management sets for them in order for their profit margins to stay above a particular number. In order to meet this deadline, safety is often thrown to the wayside which causes you to risk your life. I know all about it. You say you don't believe me? What don't you believe? that i've had to work? You think you're the only one? look, all i'm saying is that nothing in the world is all play. Revolution towards a socialist society does not mean vacation for everybody for as long as they want. In fact, that's when all the real work will begin. I just want you to recognize that.

[Skooma Addict]

Dermezel, what makes you think that all of this will suddenly become possible?

[Conquer or Die]

Can Dermezel's posts be deleted for fuck's sake.

[Dermezel]

I don't like getting hurt, i don't like risking my life, and no i don't particularly like to be tired.

No shit. I don't like it either. Fucking dehumanizing, you feel like an object.


A substantial percentage of work related accidents happen because people are rushing trying to make a deadline

No. The bosses ignore safety regs on equipment. They also rush you or threaten to fire you. Have you ever held a factory job? This is the norm. And I am more cautious then normal. My predecessor cut his fucking arm off on the chipper saw.


You say you don't believe me? What don't you believe? that i've had to work? You think you're the only one?

I don't give a shit if I am "the only one". It is fucked up. And yeah, I don't believe you or you are crazy. Nobody willingly has a bone broken if they are sane.

And you choose this shit over a paradise? Over a Ren Fest or Comic Con or Anime con with drugs and women and good food and good housing and free time?

Dood, I'd fucking kill for that. And you want to exchange that for hard labor instead?

Well have at it boss. We can work out a deal. You work hard labor 24/7 and I live the life, collecting your money and "suffering" the Cons, and chicks and drugs. We can arrange this now.

[Dermezel]

Dermezel, what makes you think that all of this will suddenly become possible?

We have millions of people and advanced technology. This is well within our reach.

[Ele'ill]

I want a barter system!

I also want time portal warps and stuff.

Dinosaurs must be genetically recreated to an exact.

I want the original tree fortress in the original Everquest to become reality. (the first stage zone without the losing your body and gear thing)

I want jetpacks like in Starsiege Tribes and raindance and snowblind to be real.

I want this cataclysmic renaissance of fun right now.

[Raúl Duke]

Super-Free Cultures


I want this cataclysmic renaissance of fun right now.

sounds nice

Can I live in a psychedelic world/culture, you know with bio-luminescent , optical illusiony, etc stuff and the pre-requisite of taking psychedelics to participate?

can I switch in and out between these things?