Das Kapital

[Nikolay]

Well, I'm looking into buying Das Kapital (all three volumes, yes I am going to be a busy boy:cool:) in the next couple of weeks, preferably before September, and I was wondering if anyone could recommend me a good translation of all the three volumes (in English, obviously)? So far I've found Penguin classics translations on Amazon Canada for C$54.00, that sounds like a great deal to me, and that's in their *new conditions. But I am still wondering if I can find easier translations because, well, I'm a newbie when it comes to Marxist literature, and I don't want to be ripped off if the books turn out to be not as good because they're hard to read.

Also, if anyone could give me a small summary to the books that'd be awesome, I just want to be prepared before I read this monster of a series.

I do have a list of books (check "My Reading List" in the literature section of the forums) that I am reading before this, so I hope I am ready to read it in the next few months.

*I don't like reading used books for some reason.. you don't know what people have done to them:crying:

[Zanthorus]

I think you will find that, unfortunately, any summary of Das Kapital will be, if not wrong, then highly controversial to at least one group of Marxists. My reccomendation would simply be to read the books carefully and draw your own conclusions.

[fa2991]

Well, I'm looking into buying Das Kapital (all three volumes, yes I am going to be a busy boy:cool:) in the next couple of weeks, preferably before September, and I was wondering if anyone could recommend me a good translation of all the three volumes (in English, obviously)? So far I've found Penguin classics translations on Amazon Canada for C$54.00, that sounds like a great deal to me, and that's in their *new conditions. But I am still wondering if I can find easier translations because, well, I'm a newbie when it comes to Marxist literature, and I don't want to be ripped off if the books turn out to be not as good because they're hard to read.

Nope, Penguin is the best you're going to find. The translation's great, the editor's footnotes are very helpful, and Ernest Mandel's introductory essays are superb.

If they're hard to read it's just because, well, they're hard books. It's not like with Shakespeare where they produce entire sets of Marx that are rewritten to be very easy. :lol:

Don't forget to watch David Harvey's chapter-by-chapter video lectures as you read!

EDIT: If you're afraid you might really struggle with Capital, there are a number of reading guides for it available on Amazon and the Marxists Internet Archive.

[StoneFrog]

Yes i agree with Zanthorus, i myself am going through Das Kapital. Just take MANY notes all i can say, read and reread bits you find hard. But im also finding out that things seem to make more sense as you go through it.

There are two groups i know of here on rev left that seem to be a little slow atm but i know there are people who still look into them.

Das Kapital Volume I group:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=324

Also a group for all volumes i think:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=494

[Nikolay]

I think you will find that, unfortunately, any summary of Das Kapital will be, if not wrong, then highly controversial to at least one group of Marxists. My reccomendation would simply be to read the books carefully and draw your own conclusions.

Thanks for the recommendation. :)


Nope, Penguin is the best you're going to find. The translation's great, the editor's footnotes are very helpful, and Ernest Mandel's introductory essays are superb.

If they're hard to read it's just because, well, they're hard books. It's not like with Shakespeare where they produce entire sets of Marx that are rewritten to be very easy. :lol:

Don't forget to watch David Harvey's chapter-by-chapter video lectures as you read!

EDIT: If you're afraid you might really struggle with Capital, there are a number of reading guides for it available on Amazon and the Marxists Internet Archive.

I'll try to use David Harvey's lectures. Thank you for the information, I'll look into the reading guides. :)


Yes i agree with Zanthorus, i myself am going through Das Kapital. Just take MANY notes all i can say, read and reread bits you find hard. But im also finding out that things seem to make more sense as you go through it.

There are two groups i know of here on rev left that seem to be a little slow atm but i know there are people who still look into them.

Das Kapital Volume I group:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=324

Also a group for all volumes i think:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=494

I already have 10 pieces of lined paper to make notes on! LOL :D I'll be rereading a lot, lol. Yeah, I figure by the 500th page it'll make a lot more sense to me, I hope. :D

Thanks for showing me those groups. I think you guys are going to be seeing me a lot in those groups. :P


Thanks so far for the recommendations guys!

Also, don't worry about summarizing the books.

[StoneFrog]

I already have 10 pieces of lined paper to make notes on! LOL :D I'll be rereading a lot, lol. Yeah, I figure by the 500th page it'll make a lot more sense to me, I hope. :D

Thanks for showing me those groups. I think you guys are going to be seeing me a lot in those groups. :P

Get a whole book filled with lined paper trust me, you should use all 10 pages on the first chapter, i know i did =P, well close to.

[Niccolò Rossi]

With Volume 1, it is advisable to purchase the 1990 Penguin Edition, translated by Ben Fowkes. As far as I am aware it is considered the most accurate translation when it comes to some of the more sensative concepts contained in the early chapters.

With Volume 2 and 3 I'm not aware of the different translations being so controversial. Buy what's cheap.

Also, remember you don't have to buy online. Look in used book stores. You can often find brilliant vintage copies published in China or the USSR for pennies.

Nic.

[S.Artesian]

My own recommendations are a bit different, FWIW:

1. Don't worry about what edition you get.

2. As you read it, try and read some things not so "economics" orientated along with it-- like the historical analysis Marx does on city vs. countryside in the Grundrisse, and something on a era in history of where you can see the classes in motion-- like the history of Reconstruction post US Civil War, or the enclosures in 18th, 19th century England and dispossession of the population. Helps keep you grounded in the fact that these are really people acting with real economic necessities.

3. Take lots of notes-- see if in the daily reportings like in the Financial Times or the Wall Street Journal you can find examples, demonstrations of what Marx is explaining.

4. Don't be afraid to NOT understand it the first, second, third, fourth time around.

[Adil3tr]

Well, I'm looking into buying Das Kapital (all three volumes, yes I am going to be a busy boy:cool:) in the next couple of weeks, preferably before September, and I was wondering if anyone could recommend me a good translation of all the three volumes (in English, obviously)? So far I've found Penguin classics translations on Amazon Canada for C$54.00, that sounds like a great deal to me, and that's in their *new conditions. But I am still wondering if I can find easier translations because, well, I'm a newbie when it comes to Marxist literature, and I don't want to be ripped off if the books turn out to be not as good because they're hard to read.

Also, if anyone could give me a small summary to the books that'd be awesome, I just want to be prepared before I read this monster of a series.

I do have a list of books (check "My Reading List" in the literature section of the forums) that I am reading before this, so I hope I am ready to read it in the next few months.

*I don't like reading used books for some reason.. you don't know what people have done to them:crying:

"Marx's Kapital for beginners" is good for the finer points. We;re never going to win over the workers by expecting them to read a 3000 page economic text, I like having this very accessible book, with the actual Kapital to back it up.

[Nikolay]

With Volume 1, it is advisable to purchase the 1990 Penguin Edition, translated by Ben Fowkes. As far as I am aware it is considered the most accurate translation when it comes to some of the more sensative concepts contained in the early chapters.

With Volume 2 and 3 I'm not aware of the different translations being so controversial. Buy what's cheap.

Also, remember you don't have to buy online. Look in used book stores. You can often find brilliant vintage copies published in China or the USSR for pennies.

Nic.

Yes, it seems like I will be getting the Penguin Editions, and they are very, very cheap where I am buying them from (Amazon Canada). Actually, my mother is the one buying me the books, since I've been working my butt off for the last 2 months to buy the books. :lol:

Problem with China and the USSR (Russia) is that I live in Canada, and I can't afford to fly over there. If you meant to go on Chinese and Russian websites than I could do that.


My own recommendations are a bit different, FWIW:

1. Don't worry about what edition you get.

2. As you read it, try and read some things not so "economics" orientated along with it-- like the historical analysis Marx does on city vs. countryside in the Grundrisse, and something on a era in history of where you can see the classes in motion-- like the history of Reconstruction post US Civil War, or the enclosures in 18th, 19th century England and dispossession of the population. Helps keep you grounded in the fact that these are really people acting with real economic necessities.

3. Take lots of notes-- see if in the daily reportings like in the Financial Times or the Wall Street Journal you can find examples, demonstrations of what Marx is explaining.

4. Don't be afraid to NOT understand it the first, second, third, fourth time around.

2. Yes, I am going to read things on Historical Materialism, and I am also planning to read the Communist Manifesto at the same time. I also will try to read Grundrisse.

3. I'll be taking a lot of notes. :)

OK, I'll try to go on those websites, if I have time. ;P

4. I think I'll understand after awhile.


"Marx's Kapital for beginners" is good for the finer points. We;re never going to win over the workers by expecting them to read a 3000 page economic text, I like having this very accessible book, with the actual Kapital to back it up.

I may read Marx's Kapital for Beginners today. So I can at least get ready. :D

Thanks guys! :D

[Nikolay]

I got an even bigger surprise (from my mother). She said she'll also buy me the Communist Manifesto, instead of reading it on the internet. :D

Best damn presents of my life! :)

[RadioRaheem84]

Nope, Penguin is the best you're going to find. The translation's great, the editor's footnotes are very helpful, and Ernest Mandel's introductory essays are superb.

If they're hard to read it's just because, well, they're hard books. It's not like with Shakespeare where they produce entire sets of Marx that are rewritten to be very easy. :lol:

Don't forget to watch David Harvey's chapter-by-chapter video lectures as you read!

EDIT: If you're afraid you might really struggle with Capital, there are a number of reading guides for it available on Amazon and the Marxists Internet Archive.

This is by far the best advice. There is also a small pamphlet that's been turned into a book called Introduction to Marxist Economic Thought by Ernest Mandel too. A good little Cliff Notes.

[Adil3tr]

GOOD BOOK: Chris Harman's A People's History of the World. It has the history of the human race, with side by side analysis of historical materialism in action and Anti systemic movements. My favorite part is his outlining of the development of fascism and the post October revolution europe

[fa2991]

Engels' summary of Capital Vol. 1 is worth reading, too, because Engels' prose and line of thought are so much clearer and easier to digest than Marx's.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/1868-syn/index.htm

[Nikolay]

My mother just bought the books. :)

It says I'll have to wait till AUG 31 or SEPT 9 though. :( Hey, at least it gives me time to read stuff that you guys have suggested. :thumbup1:


EDIT: One last question. Is Das Kapital mainly based on criticizing Capitalist economics, or does Marx actually write how a Communist/Socialist economy would be run?

[Niccolò Rossi]

Problem with China and the USSR (Russia) is that I live in Canada, and I can't afford to fly over there. If you meant to go on Chinese and Russian websites than I could do that.

No, I dont mean fly over there, or use Russian or Chinese websites. What I meant was you can find English Language copies of Capital published in the USSR/China or by the 'official CPs' for very cheap in used bookstores. For example I've seen a 3 volume, hardcover edition of Capital (published 1972 IIRC), nearly perfect condition, white pages, no creases or wear to covers/spine for $50AU in a used book store in Glebe. Back in the day they were worth nothing though, they published them dirt cheap by the millions.

Nic.

[ZeroNowhere]

I think you will find that, unfortunately, any summary of Das Kapital will be, if not wrong, then highly controversial to at least one group of Marxists. My reccomendation would simply be to read the books carefully and draw your own conclusions.
I more or less agree with this. Don't read any exegeses, not Mandel, not Engels, not even the better works on Capital, until you have finished reading it. I tend to follow the method of Bernard Grebanier with Hamlet when it comes to these kinds of texts. Essentially, he had spent his first few years teaching Hamlet by generally quoting critics, and ended up having no real idea what Shakespeare was on about. Then, for the fourth year, "I explained by my classes my current dilemma and confessed frankly that I had no idea what the play actually said. I told my students that if we cooperated I thought we may discover what Shakespeare intended us to understand, provided we read Hamlet with no preconceptions." "George Bernard Shaw says that one of the troubles with mankind is that we are forever distressed to find that our pails contain dirty water, but that we never throw out the dirty water before dipping into the clear well."

As such, they read Hamlet as though they were all an audience at the first day's performance in Elizabethan London, having no idea about what would unfold, and speculated only on what had already been read, charting carefully what they had discovered thus far. As a result, the bloke suddenly found some clarification about what the play was trying to do.

The point of that somewhat overlong story being: read Marx first, then concern yourself with the others. It's really not all that complex, especially if you take some notes. Indeed, Marx states some of his fundamental ideas (concerning alienation and such) more explicitly in the second and third volumes than the first, as summaries of sorts.

[anticap]

I don't know how I feel about this, TBH, but I figured I'd mention it.

Louis Althusser, in his article "How to Read Marx's Capital (http://generation-online.org/p/fpalthusser11.htm)," recommends reading some shorter texts first, then reading Capital in a particular order:


I will sum up my advice as to how to read Capital, as follows:

1. Leave Part I, to begin with.
2. Begin with Part II.
3. Read Parts II, III, IV, VII and VIII, with the greatest attention. (Leave Part V for later reading.)
4. Then try to read Part I by itself knowing that it is extremely difficult and requires much detailed explanation.

This said I would also advise readers of Capital to precede their study of Marx's master work by reading the two following little books which serve as an excellent introduction.

1. Wage Labour and Capital (1847) by Marx.
2. On 'Capital' by Engels, which outlines the essential ideas contained in Volume I admirably.

If it is desired to understand certain important conclusions deriving from Volume I presented in a clear and simple fashion, readers are advised, after reading Volume I to go on and read Marx's Wages, Price and Profit (1865).

As you may have noticed, he never mentions Part VI. This may be a transcription error; in his preface to Capital (http://marxists.org/reference/archive/althusser/1969/preface-capital.htm) he says:


I therefore urge on the reader the following method of reading:

1. Leave Part I (Commodities and Money) deliberately on one side in a first reading.

2. Begin reading Volume One with its Part II (The Transformation of Money into Capital).

3. Read carefully Parts II, III (The Production of Absolute Surplus-Value) and IV (The Production of Relative Surplus-Value).

4. Leave Part V (The Production of Relative and Absolute Surplus-Value) on one side.

5. Read carefully Parts VI (Wages), VII (The Accumulation of Capital) and VIII (The So-called Primitive Accumulation).

6. Finally, begin to read Part I (Commodities and Money) with infinite caution, knowing that it will always be extremely difficult to understand, even after several readings of the other Parts, without the help of a certain number of deeper explanations.

I guarantee that those readers who are prepared to observe this order of reading scrupulously, remembering what I have said about the political and theoretical difficulties of every reading of Capital, will not regret it.

So to sum up, his advice is to read in the following order:

1. Wage Labour and Capital (http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/index.htm)

2. Engels's synopsis of Capital (http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/1868-syn/index.htm)

3. Capital in the following order:

Part II (Chapters 4, 5, 6)
Part III (Chapters 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)
Part IV (Chapters 12, 13, 14, 15)
Part VI (Chapters 19, 20, 21, 22)
Part VII (Chapters 23, 24, 25)
Part VIII (Chapters 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33)
then go back and read Part I (Chapters 1, 2, 3)
and, finally (it is implied), Part V (Chapters 16, 17, 18)

4. Value, Price and Profit (http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/value-price-profit/index.htm)

His reasoning, given in the article, for following up with this much simpler text, is so that...


...one can grasp the kind of language which Marx felt it necessary to use when speaking to workers and militants of the labour movement. Marx knew how to speak simply, clearly and directly but, at the same time he made not the slightest concession with regard to the scientific content of his theories. He believed that the workers had a right to science and that they were perfectly capable of mastering the difficulties normal in any real scientific expression. This golden rule is - and remains - a lesson for us all.

And then we can assume that Althusser would consider it "safe" to move on to Capital Volumes II and III.

Again, I don't know if it's worth following his advice or not, but I've seen it mentioned several times, so you ought to at least be made aware of it.

GL, HF

[S.Artesian]

My advice is to ignore all advice from Louis Althusser; to ignore Louis Althusser.

My other advice is to only listen to people who tell you not to take anyone's advice about reading "studies of" Capital, introductions to Capital, etc. Just start reading the work itself.

[Paul Cockshott]

I still prefer the original Moore @aveling translation to the Fernbach.

[F9]

My advice, is take no advice, build your opinion on your own(ok 2 advices not to follow, or are they 3?:D)

Although i was "happy" when i got my hands on it(Das Kapital) i soon got bored, its a boring book i can say, at least you have an interest in economics, but nonetheless a critical and important book.I wouldnt recommend it for "starters" i tried to, back at those times when i was just "starting" and got like past 2 pages, and closed it, after my knowledge got a bit more expanded, it was easier to follow, easier to read.Of course Das Kapital is far from an easy book, so dont take easier as that.

[anticap]

I still prefer the original Moore @aveling translation to the Fernbach.

I'm curious: why?

And how do you feel about the Fowkes translation of Vol. I?

[nickdlc]

Why would you buy the books? They are all online free of charge!! You can get them in pdf format and I'm sure there are programs that will allow you to read them from left to right, to make the text bigger, take notes within the file ...

It's like people who buy cd's or LP's, when they can easily download. The book or the music will not become magically "better" because you have shelled out money for a physical object with it's hard cover or cd jacket.

Is this a manefistation of commodity fetishism?

I just finished reading volume 1 on the marxists internet archive last week. After reading a chapter and taking notes I'd watch the David Harvey videos and compare my view of the chapters with his, for shits and gigs. I would say he alluminated much more points that I didn't catch and made sense of chapter 3 where I had no idea what Marx was going on about.

Great book though and all the things you can write about from just starting off at looking at the commodity. I don't think you can read this book once and say you have a clear understanding of it, and I'm looking forward to reading it again when I'm done with the other two volumes.

[Kuppo Shakur]

Why would you buy the books? They are all online free of charge!! You can get them in pdf format and I'm sure there are programs that will allow you to read them from left to right, to make the text bigger, take notes within the file ...
Why have sex when you can just watch porn?

[Nikolay]

Why would you buy the books? They are all online free of charge!! You can get them in pdf format and I'm sure there are programs that will allow you to read them from left to right, to make the text bigger, take notes within the file ...

It's like people who buy cd's or LP's, when they can easily download. The book or the music will not become magically "better" because you have shelled out money for a physical object with it's hard cover or cd jacket.

Is this a manefistation of commodity fetishism?

I just finished reading volume 1 on the marxists internet archive last week. After reading a chapter and taking notes I'd watch the David Harvey videos and compare my view of the chapters with his, for shits and gigs. I would say he alluminated much more points that I didn't catch and made sense of chapter 3 where I had no idea what Marx was going on about.

Great book though and all the things you can write about from just starting off at looking at the commodity. I don't think you can read this book once and say you have a clear understanding of it, and I'm looking forward to reading it again when I'm done with the other two volumes.

Because I tend to enjoy reading books, instead of reading them on the internet. And I usually stay more concentrated while reading books, unlike when I read on the internet. :)


Why have sex when you can just watch porn?

LOL :laugh:

[fa2991]

Why would you buy the books? They are all online free of charge!! You can get them in pdf format and I'm sure there are programs that will allow you to read them from left to right, to make the text bigger, take notes within the file.

Most people don't like to read 1200 pages of text on their computers. :p

[fa2991]

Also, on MIA, you have to scroll allll the way to the end of a chapter to see the three dozen or so footnotes. What a pain.

[F9]

Why have sex when you can just watch porn?

Not the same, but still good one...

@nickdlc There is a lot difference holding the book in your hands, from reading it threw a fucking monitor... Also, its always good have them in your bookshelf, and as for cd's LP's etc, some people make collections.

Im all for the the "real stuff" rather than the computerized ones, but i use the second a lot more, sadly, as obviously the first cost.

[nickdlc]

Why have sex when you can just watch porn?]I think this proves my point, somehow by purchasing a commodity it all of a sudden makes the experience "real" and "meaningful". I'm talking about buying the commodity books from a book store not the commodity sex from a prostitute. Hell I used to have the same mindset and emotions when I bought a book or music or any other commodity.

I think you get a little "high" from purchasing commodities which is why so many people do it so compulsively. Companies really know how to push our buttons when it comes to purchasing these things.

My point was someone is going to purchase or already has purchased these books, which ironically, talks about the way in which wage labourers who produce these commodities the more we buy them, the more we reproduce ourselves as wage-labourers.

I mean before you could say "but this is the only way I can read the book" but now that it's online for free we find different reasons for buying it. "but I like taking it around with me, i like reading left to right, I don't like scrolling" ect ect

And you find this for a whole host of commodities that are now free books, video games, music, operating systems, movies being the ones that come to my mind first. Commodity fetishism is so pervasive that even revolutionary leftists still find reasons to buy them!

Seriously buying Das Kapital when it's freely available!

[Nikolay]

I think this proves my point, somehow by purchasing a commodity it all of a sudden makes the experience "real" and "meaningful". I'm talking about buying the commodity books from a book store not the commodity sex from a prostitute. Hell I used to have the same mindset and emotions when I bought a book or music or any other commodity.

I think you get a little "high" from purchasing commodities which is why so many people do it so compulsively. Companies really know how to push our buttons when it comes to purchasing these things.

My point was someone is going to purchase or already has purchased these books, which ironically, talks about the way in which wage labourers who produce these commodities the more we buy them, the more we reproduce ourselves as wage-labourers.

I mean before you could say "but this is the only way I can read the book" but now that it's online for free we find different reasons for buying it. "but I like taking it around with me, i like reading left to right, I don't like scrolling" ect ect

And you find this for a whole host of commodities that are now free books, video games, music, operating systems, movies being the ones that come to my mind first. Commodity fetishism is so pervasive that even revolutionary leftists still find reasons to buy them!

Seriously buying Das Kapital when it's freely available!

Well it's to late now. I've already bought the book and I can expect it on AUG 31 or SEPT 9.

But, I understand what your saying.

[fa2991]

I think this proves my point, somehow by purchasing a commodity it all of a sudden makes the experience "real" and "meaningful". I'm talking about buying the commodity books from a book store not the commodity sex from a prostitute. Hell I used to have the same mindset and emotions when I bought a book or music or any other commodity.

I think you get a little "high" from purchasing commodities which is why so many people do it so compulsively. Companies really know how to push our buttons when it comes to purchasing these things.

My point was someone is going to purchase or already has purchased these books, which ironically, talks about the way in which wage labourers who produce these commodities the more we buy them, the more we reproduce ourselves as wage-labourers.

I mean before you could say "but this is the only way I can read the book" but now that it's online for free we find different reasons for buying it. "but I like taking it around with me, i like reading left to right, I don't like scrolling" ect ect

And you find this for a whole host of commodities that are now free books, video games, music, operating systems, movies being the ones that come to my mind first. Commodity fetishism is so pervasive that even revolutionary leftists still find reasons to buy them!

Seriously buying Das Kapital when it's freely available!

That's nonsense. Books are portable, wireless, cheap, and convenient - plus they smell nice. A free music/free books analogy is silly because if you download an mp3 you get the same experience as you would if you bought the CD, but reading a book and reading a computer screen are radically different experiences.

Also, I think you've misinterpreted what commodity fetishism is, which is ironic, given what book this thread is about. :lol:

[ZeroNowhere]

Why would you buy the books? They are all online free of charge!! You can get them in pdf format and I'm sure there are programs that will allow you to read them from left to right, to make the text bigger, take notes within the file ...
I'm fairly sure that you can't get the Fowkes translation online.


I think this proves my point, somehow by purchasing a commodity it all of a sudden makes the experience "real" and "meaningful". I'm talking about buying the commodity books from a book store not the commodity sex from a prostitute. Hell I used to have the same mindset and emotions when I bought a book or music or any other commodity.Yes, because there is no difference between reading from pages and reading on a computer other than that you have to pay for one.


And you find this for a whole host of commodities that are now free books, video games, music, operating systems, movies being the ones that come to my mind first. Commodity fetishism is so pervasive that even revolutionary leftists still find reasons to buy them!I would suggest going back to Chapter 1.

[Paul Cockshott]

I'm curious: why?

And how do you feel about the Fowkes translation of Vol. I?

I made a mistake there, Dave Fernbach did the Penguin Grundrisse, I meant Fowkes.

It is partly a matter of familiarity, and also I feel that the 19th century English 'fits' better with something written in that century. On the few occasions when I have followed points of interpretation have being debated on the web and people are arguing over the translation, I have compared the Aveling and Fowkes to the German and, allowing for my imperfect German, have not seen any clear advantage for the Fowkes.

[S.Artesian]

Also, on MIA, you have to scroll allll the way to the end of a chapter to see the three dozen or so footnotes. What a pain.


MIA now has a .pdf version of Volume 1, and of the Grundrisse available for downloading.

[S.Artesian]

I think this proves my point, somehow by purchasing a commodity it all of a sudden makes the experience "real" and "meaningful". I'm talking about buying the commodity books from a book store not the commodity sex from a prostitute. Hell I used to have the same mindset and emotions when I bought a book or music or any other commodity.

I think you get a little "high" from purchasing commodities which is why so many people do it so compulsively. Companies really know how to push our buttons when it comes to purchasing these things.

My point was someone is going to purchase or already has purchased these books, which ironically, talks about the way in which wage labourers who produce these commodities the more we buy them, the more we reproduce ourselves as wage-labourers.

I mean before you could say "but this is the only way I can read the book" but now that it's online for free we find different reasons for buying it. "but I like taking it around with me, i like reading left to right, I don't like scrolling" ect ect

And you find this for a whole host of commodities that are now free books, video games, music, operating systems, movies being the ones that come to my mind first. Commodity fetishism is so pervasive that even revolutionary leftists still find reasons to buy them!

Seriously buying Das Kapital when it's freely available!


Or.... it's simply easier to read a book in real book format. I think it definitely is much easier to read a book as a real book.

[fa2991]

MIA now has a .pdf version of Volume 1, and of the Grundrisse available for downloading.

Actually, I was talking about the pdfs.

[anticap]

I made a mistake there, Dave Fernbach did the Penguin Grundrisse, I meant Fowkes.

Ah OK. FYI though, Fernbach did the Penguin Vols. II & III; Martin Nicolaus did the Grundrisse.


It is partly a matter of familiarity, and also I feel that the 19th century English 'fits' better with something written in that century. On the few occasions when I have followed points of interpretation have being debated on the web and people are arguing over the translation, I have compared the Aveling and Fowkes to the German and, allowing for my imperfect German, have not seen any clear advantage for the Fowkes.

I'm the opposite, I prefer as modern English as I can get, provided that it's a faithful translation. I've never heard anyone suggest that the Fowkes isn't.

[Paul Cockshott]

whoops, it is clear my memory of events 35 years back is hazier than I thought!

[Nikolay]

Well my books have arrived (away ahead of schedule), and I think I'll start reading them tomorrow, or a little bit after that.

Also, these books don't look at all hard to read like some of you said. :P

Wish me luck. :) And lets hope I learn something. :D

[fa2991]

Also, these books don't look at all hard to read

[Sinister cackle] :sneaky:

[Buffalo Souljah]

I think this proves my point, somehow by purchasing a commodity it all of a sudden makes the experience "real" and "meaningful". I'm talking about buying the commodity books from a book store not the commodity sex from a prostitute. Hell I used to have the same mindset and emotions when I bought a book or music or any other commodity.

I think you get a little "high" from purchasing commodities which is why so many people do it so compulsively. Companies really know how to push our buttons when it comes to purchasing these things.

My point was someone is going to purchase or already has purchased these books, which ironically, talks about the way in which wage labourers who produce these commodities the more we buy them, the more we reproduce ourselves as wage-labourers.

I mean before you could say "but this is the only way I can read the book" but now that it's online for free we find different reasons for buying it. "but I like taking it around with me, i like reading left to right, I don't like scrolling" ect ect

And you find this for a whole host of commodities that are now free books, video games, music, operating systems, movies being the ones that come to my mind first. Commodity fetishism is so pervasive that even revolutionary leftists still find reasons to buy them!

Seriously buying Das Kapital when it's freely available!
What happens to your precious pdf when the power goes out, or when the government seizes your HDD??..........:blink:...bye, bye! I don't think Marx is against the production/consumption of commodities, or the existence of bookdealers.publishers/merchants of other kinds/etc., just specifically the exploitation of wage laborers and the "working class" by these individuals for the purpose of the reproduction of the value of the means of production and the production of surplus value (profit). And, Rome wasn't built in a day, you know?

An aside: Che was known to have carried around a copy of Capital to read to his soldiers. Imagine the immense difficultly of schlepping around a 7 lbs. laptop through the jungle, not to mention the impossiblity of finding electricity of wireless "hot spots"!!:lol: Don't underestimate the value of books--they have been around with us now for a long, long time; I do not see them going away any time soon. The Web is a continuity of human civilization, it does not "negate" everything that went before. It simply offers an alternative. How an individual wants to spend their money is up to them. I frankly have no need of "Preaching from the pulpit" about this, as I do not scandalize those who eat at a restaurant on occasion (I do this myself with my mother, though by and large I cook at home).

[nickdlc]

Here's my prediction, books are on the way out no matter our subjective tastes. Having to carry one book at a time is the old way, having one of those ebook readers with many thousands of books is the new way.

When the price for the ebook readers is around $100 you will see people discarding books on mass for the ebook readers.

[Uppercut]

You could always pick up the Marx-Engels reader. It's excellent.

[Chimurenga.]

You could always pick up the Marx-Engels reader. It's excellent.

Agreed. However, if you're looking for full texts, that's not the way to go.

[Chimurenga.]

Also, three pages and no mention of this whatsoever?

http://davidharvey.org/reading-capital/

[anticap]

Also, three pages and no mention of this whatsoever?

http://davidharvey.org/reading-capital/

Yes, that should always be mentioned. (Incidentally, Harvey is now raising funds (http://davidharvey.org/donate/) to do vols. 2 & 3.)

I've just finished linking the LibriVox recordings of Capital to its table of contents, which was not done at their download page; so if anyone wants to listen to a particular section, click here.

[graymouser]

It is partly a matter of familiarity, and also I feel that the 19th century English 'fits' better with something written in that century. On the few occasions when I have followed points of interpretation have being debated on the web and people are arguing over the translation, I have compared the Aveling and Fowkes to the German and, allowing for my imperfect German, have not seen any clear advantage for the Fowkes.
At least in the International Publishers edition, the Aveling translation only has references translated from German to English. Footnotes in French, Italian, Latin and Greek remain in those languages. It's a little bit of a chore even for someone like me who knows a little of each, for a monoglot speaker of English I think it'd be more offputting.

That was the main reason I went back to the Fowkes translation the third time I read the book (the first time I got up to chapter 10, the second time through chapter 15, and the third time all the way to the end). I've considered hunting down the International Publishers editions of II and III though as I don't care too much for the Fernbach translation of II.