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Dermezel
9th August 2010, 23:54
As a "reactionary" who must be "restricted" I have to say without equivocation capitalism must go and be completely replaced by socialism. And the bourgeoisie forces must be prevented from ever taking power again.

This is in line with Trotsky's Permanent Revolution (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1931/tpr/index.htm) which many Cliffites here completely reject in the name of their own "theory" of "State Capitalism" (which is incoherent and contradictory).

Note the Cliffites claim to be Trotskyist but reject Trostky's positions of:

--General military defense of the economic gains of the USSR.

Trotsky disagreed with the USSR's politics but supported their collectivized economy. An economy that provided free health care, guaranteed income, guaranteed housing, free education, free mass transit, food, water, electricity, etc.

And now look at Russia, which has turned into a shit hole:



As a result, Yeltsin's popularity plunged so he did what all desperate leaders do to hold power with the next election to worry about. He began a war in 1994 in the breakaway Chechen republic killing 100,000 civilians by the late 90s. Elections were held in 1996, and Yeltsin won by overcoming his low approval ratings with huge oligarch-funding and near-total control of television coverage. He then quietly handed power to Vladimir Putin on December 31, 1999 without an election but with the stipulation he was exempt from criminal prosecution. His legacy was devastating with Klein noting "never have so many lost so much in so short a time." When Russia's 1998 financial crisis hit: -- 80% of Russia's farmers were bankrupt; -- around 70,000 states factories had closed; -- an "epidemic" of unemployment raged; -- before shock therapy in 1989, two million Russians lived in poverty on less than $4 a day; by the mid-90s, the World Bank estimated 74 million were impoverished and by 1996 conditions for 25% (almost 37 million) Russians were "desperate" and the country's underclass remained permanent; -- Russians drink twice as much now as before; painkilling and hard drug use increased 900%, and HIV/AIDS threatens to become epidemic with a 20-fold jump in infections since 1995; suicides are also rising, and violent crime increased more than fourfold; and -- Russia's population is declining by 700,000 a year with capitalism having already having killed off 10% of it as one more example of free market-inflicted disaster. That's the brave new world disease spreading everywhere with another scorched-earth stop below. Friedman called it "freedom."http://www.rense.com/general78/lendd.htm

--Permanent Revolution i.e. Revolution until the world is red.

--Linking the proletariat of the advanced nations to those of the Deformed Workers' States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deformed_workers%27_state)

Trotsky acknowledged that such Stalinist states were backwards but defended them regardless as better then a full out, imperialist run capitalist nation. The lesser of two evils.

In fact he called upon the Proletariat here, in the advanced nations, to link up with them in order to raise class consciousness and push them further to the left.

We now at days can engage these fellow proletariat directly, online, via forums like those of ChinaDaily, where there is virtually no censorship. (I have faced far more censorship on RevLeft then on ChinaDaily. )

The truth is the Cliffites are playing an extremely regressive role in history since they occupy an extremely critical location strategically- the Working Class leadership positions of most Advanced English speaking nations (this is the largest leftist forum on the entire net and it is Cliffite, btw say hi to the CIA =) ) . And yet they purposely block any attempt at linking the first world proletariat with the Workers' States- which is the exact opposite strategy proposed by Trotsky.

Perhaps they have a point, but they are by no means Trotskyist. And they are playing a role even more regressive then the Democratic Party because at least the Democrats will admit they are bourgeoisie. The Democrats admit they are capitalist. The Cliffites will pretend to be something they are not, within Unions and Socialist circles and thereby confuse the Working Class.

This is not to say Cliffites are bad people. Far from it, I like Cliffites a lot. But their strategic abilities leave something to be desired. And the fact that they can, at any time, link with China, Vietnam, Cuba, or North Korea but refuse to do so because of some sense of "superiority" is extremely frustrating. It is like they are pitting the "Enlightened" first world working class, against the "dirty" third world working class.

This fact- that I am far left of the Cliffites- is what gets me labeled a "reactionary. " This is the sort of behavior Lenin bemoaned when he wrote Left-Wing Communism: an infantile disorder[/i] (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/).

Long-live the Proletariat.

Over throw capitalism

Defend the Workers States!

Dermezel
10th August 2010, 00:00
This last, linking with the Proletariat in China, which you can do via the Net, is extremely critical. Thus far all they talk to is pro-capitalists who encourage counter-revolution. People here can tell the workers' there about the truth of capitalism in America and other first world nations. You can do this on web sites like ChinaDaily. Oppose counter-revolution in China by raising class consciousness. Do not let other Americans deceive them with tales of hollywood and "freedom" and "rags to riches" without rebuke.

Conquer or Die
10th August 2010, 00:48
China is completely state capitalist. They are in favor of excess value. They are no longer anti-exploitation.

Revolution in China is not forthcoming, and it's a damn shame.

Bud Struggle
10th August 2010, 00:50
China is completely state capitalist. They are in favor of excess value. They are no longer anti-exploitation.

Revolution in China is not forthcoming, and it's a damn shame.Shush. Dermezel is living in a 1975 time warp. :D

Dermezel
10th August 2010, 01:17
China is completely state capitalist. They are in favor of excess value. They are no longer anti-exploitation.

Revolution in China is not forthcoming, and it's a damn shame.

How is that an excuse not to try and reach out to the Chinese proletariat?

Conquer or Die
10th August 2010, 01:23
How is that an excuse not to try and reach out to the Chinese proletariat?

Why don't you reach out and speak to the American proletariat on revolution. They're interested in privatizing all public sector jobs possible, not fomenting a real radical revolution.

Dermezel
10th August 2010, 02:06
Why don't you reach out and speak to the American proletariat on revolution. They're interested in privatizing all public sector jobs possible, not fomenting a real radical revolution.

I speak out on the largest forum on the entire internet. Sometimes 50-100 thousand people.

Bud Struggle
10th August 2010, 03:01
I speak out on the largest forum on the entire internet. Sometimes 50-100 thousand people.

4chan?

Dermezel
10th August 2010, 03:03
4chan?

Larger.

Bud Struggle
10th August 2010, 03:10
Larger.

That leaves only Gaia Online the Anime role playing site. You preach Communist Revolution with Anime? Cool!

http://rankings.big-boards.com/

Dermezel
10th August 2010, 03:25
That leaves only Gaia Online the Anime role playing site. You preach Communist Revolution with Anime? Cool!

http://rankings.big-boards.com/

How do you know China Daily ain't bigger?

Bud Struggle
10th August 2010, 03:28
How do you know China Daily ain't bigger?

Got me there!

Kayser_Soso
10th August 2010, 08:07
First of all, there has never been a Trot revolution, never will be. Why? Because permanent revolution is impossible. At some point it will become necessary to consodidate gains in a given place, either in one nation or several nations. Not all nations will have a revolutionary scenario at the same time(though globalization may have caused conditions whereby a revolutionary scenario may occur in more nations simultaneously, but this is another matter entirely). The idea of permanent revolution is that if there is socialism in one country(a big misnomer anyway), this nation will be forced to spend a great deal of its resources on the apparatus of defense against all subversion as well as military intervention.


The problem is that people who espouse this do not understand military tactics. Leaving aside all political considerations, an offensive to "spread the revolution" would actually cost more resources, and ensure the socialist nation or nations are constantly in a state of war even as they are at a material disadvantage due to their own revolutionary struggle.

But maybe you say the revolution can be spread in other ways? Perhaps, but if it is spread to aggressively, it is only a matter of time before the rest of the capitalist world bands together and tries to crush the socialist state or states with military force- either way it leads to more war. Obviously an arms race is undesirable, and there are better ways to defend a country these days than masses of weaponry, but it is far easier to expend resources in defense than attempting an offensive campaign to spread revolution to those who are not ready for it.

Dermezel
10th August 2010, 14:45
Anyways the Cliffites remind me very much of any reactionary luddite group. To quote Isaac Asimov:
Well, when I read all of these references I discovered, to my amazement, that all through history there had been resistance...and bitter, exaggerated, last-stitch resistance...to every significant technological change that had taken place on earth. Usually the resistance came from those groups who stood to lose influence, status, money...as a result of the change. Although they never advanced this as their reason for resisting it. It was always the good of humanity that rested upon their hearts.

http://www.asimovonline.com/oldsite/future_of_humanity.html

China is building the World's Largest Solar Plant: http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2009-09/biggest-solar-power-plant-set-china

They are creating a revolutionary new form of mass transit that causes zero congestion (and is solar powered) : http://dvice.com/archives/2010/08/crazy-huge-chin.php

They are also pursuing advanced nanotech, robotics, etc. All with the capital they gained from following the JCP's market socialist advice.

Now the Cliffites reject this as "technocracy" ( even though Trotsky promoted technocracy (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1934/08/ame.htm) and they claim to be Trotskyist) or "Dengism" and restrict anyone who disagrees and labels them a reactionary.

It is not that they stand to lose status, or influence, or money from real Trotskyists who defend and encourage the technological development of Workers' States. It is, of course, that they are "concerned" about the good of humanity/working class/proletariat. Because if their State Capitalist theory was ever exposed for what it was (an incoherent theory with four contradictory definitions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism) i.e. China, the USSR, the US, European Welfare States and Nazi Germany are all "State Capitalist" ) they would lose their position as the de facto leader of Working Class movements in English speaking countries.

This self-interest is clearly the farthest thing from their minds.