Philosophy of suicide

[Kuppo Shakur]

Premise: I have noticed that the more I learn about philosophy, the more I want to kill myself, which has led me to an interesting set of questions. I began by starting an experiment to see how suicidal I can get without actually killing myself, which forced me to ask:

1. Can suicidalness be measured? Can any kind of desire be measured?
2. If one believes that human life is "sacred" (as I sort of do), meaning it is of special value in some nonspecific way, then one believes that killing should be avoided, except in self-defense. Correct?
3. If so, how would one justify killing oneself? Is suicide a special case, or is it simply 'morally wrong', since it is supposedly avoidable to kill oneself, as well as utterly impossible to kill oneself in an act of self defense?
4. One the other hand, if suicide is a special case, then how is one supposed to approach the question of suicide?
5. If the answer to 1 turns out to be 'Yes', does that mean that by the results of my experiment, I can measure a "will to live"?

This is just a vague recountance of my earlier thought process, so I may have left some things out.

[scarletghoul]

You may be interested in Huey P Newton's conception of 'revolutionary suicide' and 'reactionary suicide'

[Raúl Duke]

I have noticed that the more I learn about philosophy, the more I want to kill myself, which has led me to an interesting set of questions.

Reminds me of absurdism, which according to Camus philosophy's major question is concerning suicide.

Although I find his solution to the question to be rather weak/flawed. Than again I'm more of some kind of atypical existentialist than an absurdist

[Meridian]

Premise: I have noticed that the more I learn about philosophy, the more I want to kill myself, which has led me to an interesting set of questions
That is just idiotic.

All I can say is read Tractatus Logico Philosophicus and Philosophical Investigations by Wittgenstein, and you will feel like a dumbass.

If you feel like killing yourself, I won't be one to stop you. However, don't come to philosophy for any explanation, as it offers none.

[Widerstand]

I have noticed that the more I learn about philosophy, the more I want to kill myself

Generally, getting a certain level of understanding of the world, especially if it goes along with facing your own inherent meaninglessness, can lead to existential depression, which can lead to suicidal thoughts.

Some links on the matter:

What is existential depression? (http://psychcentral.com/lib/2008/what-is-existential-depression/)
Existential depression in gifted individuals (& ways to overcome it) (http://www.sengifted.org/articles_counseling/Webb_ExistentialDepressionInGiftedIndividuals.shtm l)



1. Can suicidalness be measured? Can any kind of desire be measured?

Accurately? Most likely not, as it would depend highly on self-evaluation, which I presume is very inaccurate in depressed people, which are usually the ones prone to suicidal thoughts.



2. If one believes that human life is "sacred" (as I sort of do), meaning it is of special value in some nonspecific way, then one believes that killing should be avoided, except in self-defense. Correct?

Well, I don't believe human life is "sacred", but yes, it could be used as an argument against killing.



3. If so, how would one justify killing oneself? Is suicide a special case, or is it simply 'morally wrong', since it is supposedly avoidable to kill oneself, as well as utterly impossible to kill oneself in an act of self defense?

According to some Christians, suicide is a sin, as it is a rejection of God's gift of sacred life. If you're not a Christian, that changes of course.If I remember correctly, Kant made a point that it is a "duty to yourself" to keep yourself alive. To be honest, I don't know how one would argue that albeit killing is wrong, suicide isn't, other than by defining 'suicide' as not an act of killing.



4. One the other hand, if suicide is a special case, then how is one supposed to approach the question of suicide?

Well, there are various approaches. My personal one is, that it is your own choice whether or not you want to kill yourself (somehow I find this matter to be deeply related to pro-choice stances, dunno why exactly). Although I think, that in most, if not all, cases, suicidal thoughts are a symptom of depression, which could and should be helped by social care and/or therapy. I'm reading a book by Nathaniel Branden right now, and he argues that suicide is a means of seizing control over your fate, to deal with the fear of being destroyed by something unknown you have no control over. In my opinion, this reasoning is equivalent to that of suicide being a means to avoid pain, since this desperate need to avoid pain must stem from the, usually false, belief that the pain is inevitable and permanent, ergo that it will ultimately destroy you.


You may be interested in Huey P Newton's conception of 'revolutionary suicide' and 'reactionary suicide'

Last person I heard of that liked that conception was Jim Jones. Jonestown sure was too much 'revolutionary suicide' for my liking.


Jones had borrowed the term "revolutionary suicide"[102] from Black Panther leader and Peoples Temple supporter Huey Newton who had argued "the slow suicide of life in the ghetto" ought to be replaced by revolutionary struggle that would end only in victory (socialism and self determination) or revolutionary suicide (death).

[Coggeh]

Suicide shouldn't be looked at as "oh its their bodies" though people have the right to do it, they also should try and be stopped at all possibly times.

Done a course recently was called "ASSIST" people should check it out its only like 10 euro and they'll send a rep to you. to give it if you can organise other people to come.

Safe talk is like the pre-course to the assist course
http://www.chooselife.net/TrainingArticles/safeTALKPilot.asp check it out, teaches you how to deal with someone who is an extreme depression/sucidal situation

[Meridian]

Generally, getting a certain level of understanding of the world, especially if it goes along with facing your own inherent meaninglessness, can lead to existential depression, which can lead to suicidal thoughts.
Unfortunately, that is a distorted understanding of the world, based upon a distorted view of linguistic capabilities. Any discovery of "inherent meaninglessness" in life is nonsensical for the same reason.

You could feel things are meaningless, but that is because of entirely "material conditions"; it can not be inferred or even explained philosophically. Philosophy is completely nonsensical. If anyone feel like taking their own lives, contact either people near you or professionals and talk about it with them.

[Tenka]

The discovery of the meaninglessness of life is as meaningless as life itself--is that what you're saying? I'd like to take it that way, though maybe it's not the way you meant it.

Any 'meaning' found in life is entirely subjective and people suffering existential crises are right to do so--no person asks to be born in a world wherein their species is largely consumed in short-sighted hedonistic degeneracies, exploiting itself and being exploited by itself as it hurdles toward its inevitable death.

Most often, I suspect, by the time one is seriously contemplating suicide, it's either too late to stop it or too late to do it--they're either in extreme anguish, making them hopelessly irrational; or they've come to see the inherent pointlessness of such an ineffectual, possibly selfish act.

I am of course referring to the average person. People who could be suffering from Manic Depressive Disorder or some such thing should get help.

[Revolte_Wolf]

I began by starting an experiment to see how suicidal I can get without actually killing myself,


I just want to say real fast, that what you are doing is a really bad idea for yourself. As someone who has attempted suicide before, I know how interesting it can be to push the limit to find some sort of theory on how it works, but doing so can get you to a place you might never be able to return from.

I think it would be much wiser to study other cases and compare them to eatchother lalallalal work in that sort of way, because one, you are going to have a very bias opinion on whats going on, and two, people are suicidal for different reasons.

Also, submitting yourself to suicidal thought intentionally is going to mess with your mind way to much to come to any accurate conclusions.

You can say "without killing myself" right now, but in due time that might not be the case, so take care of yourself, and if you are going to go through and contenue with that, I would say be sure to make people close to you aware of it, at the very least, or even make sure you have a therapist of some sort in close reach.

[leftace53]

Premise: I have noticed that the more I learn about philosophy, the more I want to kill myself, which has led me to an interesting set of questions. I began by starting an experiment to see how suicidal I can get without actually killing myself, which forced me to ask:

Interesting. What is it about philosophy that makes you want to die?


As someone who would jump at the opportunity to commit a painless suicide (and have had a fairly recent half-assed assessment attempt), I fully support the right to die. I don't take life to be sacred or any such thing, for the mere reason that we didn't have the choice to be born. Living in current society doesn't help either, but as I read in another thread, capitalism might have no use for us, but the revolution sure does.

I'm leaning towards an opinion that desires can indeed be measured, but maybe not from a solely rational standpoint. I think there would have to be empirical measurements of hormones in the brain (or some other fancy biological thing).

[Kuppo Shakur]

Thank you for the input, everyone. All recommended reading has been noted.

First off, let me attempt to clarify a bit more on what I mean by the "sacredness" of human life: I am not working from any concrete religious background, I am merely stating that the connection that I have with the rest of mankind prevents me from causing death to any individual. I think that's what I'm trying to say.

Anyway, I think I see what some of you are saying, about suicide not really being a moral issue, so much as an issue of mental health. But, I guess mental disorders can vastly affect your moral judgment, sooo I'll have to think of this I little more deeply.

As for Revolte Wolf's comment, yes I suppose your right, I am treading risky waters here, I've just always taken to testing my own limits, constantly playing 'willy-nilly' with my own consciousness and perception. It's just too damn interesting.
Perhaps I will take another step further back and contemplate my actions a bit more objectively.


I'm leaning towards an opinion that desires can indeed be measured, but maybe not from a solely rational standpoint. I think there would have to be empirical measurements of hormones in the brain (or some other fancy biological thing). I think this may be a start? I'm no neuro-chemist, but I'll look into it.

[hobo8675309]

i have seriously considered suicide, not because im depressed, but as a science expirement in a way, to see if god really exists. i figure i should take my time, because suicide is a little unnatural.

[Tenka]

i have seriously considered suicide, not because im depressed, but as a science expirement in a way, to see if god really exists. i figure i should take my time, because suicide is a little unnatural.
Don't you know? Early Christian teachings have mandated that suicides go directly to hell.
Surely not a ploy to ensure continued profit from their little death cult or anything like that...
:lol:

[Dr Mindbender]

i have seriously considered suicide, not because im depressed, but as a science expirement in a way, to see if god really exists. i figure i should take my time, because suicide is a little unnatural.

that is not scientific because if the end result is your death then the sphere of human knowledge does not expand. Keifer Sutherland's character had the right idea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEt8u2zGZZM&feature=related

[COMPLEXproductions]

Suicide is an odd topic. I think the only way an enlightened individual(or one who studies reality enough in with a sense of wisdom, which one aims for when studying philosophy) would consider suicide is as a means to not consciously affect reality. A thought I remember once having is that a man that knows everything wouldn't do anything, for he would see every consequence of his actions. So, in that respect, suicide could be a form of escaping consciously altering reality, and that I have no way of arguing against thus far(unless one argues that affecting reality is inevitable, considering how you will affect others around you through the act of suicide. Even an enlightened form will affect people some how). But the philosophy of ultimate neutrality is one I cannot be against if a loved one chose this for themselves in an enlightened sense, though I do not necessarily follow it in this manner myself. However, my conclusion is that suicide due to depression is the greatest form of impatience imaginable. Also, suicide is different than killing others because in suicide you are not taking options from others. If you kill someone consciously, you are to blame for the loss of their freedom and choices. If you kill yourself, you end your freedom. If you punch yourself, no one can necessarily stop you(again, unless someone feels they would be too emotionally damaged to allow you to do so). Now, killing is different than hurting because damaging someone takes away some of the choices they once had, but it also gives them other choices to make. Killing simply ENDS them. They have no freedom, no options or choices. I guess, this is as much as I can say for now with my current inspiration. Good luck in your mind, mate.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Suicide? Been there tried that several times. I am glad I failed now that I can look at it in retrospect.

[CommunityBeliever]

the more I learn about philosophy, the more I want to kill myself

Study something else!


If so, how would one justify killing oneself?

Here are two good cases of justified suicide that I can think of off the top of my head, but there are probably many more



You are stuck living your entire life in a cave surviving off of worms and whatever other scrapes you can find, you decide to commit suicide because this is not a life worth living, and you realize that nobody is going to mourn your death since you are living in complete isolation
Some slave catching motherfuckers decide to capture you from your village and ship you over to the Caribbean, you realize this is not a life worth living so you decide to jump off the boat.

I think you should really think about the people you leave behind. If I was a parent, I would want my children to commit suicide/die after me, so I would say commit suicide, just do it after I am gone from this universe.

I would say that is why most suicides are unacceptable and why suicidal people should be treated and people should try to stop them from committing suicide because it may cause sadness in the people around them who will mourn them and miss them.

If the person is living in a cave in isolation then nobody is going to miss him/her, and if the person is in slavery maybe the slave master will miss them (not in a good way), however, it may be justified as a means of fighting against those enslaving oppressors


suicide could be a form of escaping consciously altering realityLet me tell you then that is simply a false premise, suicide does alter reality!

I know that people can feel extreme pain, depression, and anger, and I feel for them, but often times the pain left behind for others is even greater! It is truly tragic to have someone you love commit suicide.

[COMPLEXproductions]

Let me tell you then that is simply a false premise, suicide does alter reality!

I know that people can feel extreme pain, depression, and anger, and I feel for them, but often times the pain left behind for others is even greater! It is truly tragic to have someone you love commit suicide.

That is why I also said "unless one argues that affecting reality is inevitable, considering how you will affect others around you through the act of suicide. Even an enlightened form will affect people some how". Must have missed that part ;)

[Fulanito de Tal]

Durkhiem came up with 4 types of suicides: egoistic, altruistic, anomic, and fatalistic.

Egoistic: comes from a lack of social integration in terms of morality, values, and purpose.

Altruistic: too much social integration and fanatical following. For example, a leader tells a group of people to kill themselves and they do.

Anomic: Lack of regulations of the collective on individuals leads people to commit suicide. Examples: change in job, location, friends.

Fatalistic: Too much social regulation. People feel that they are oppressed and have no control over their lives.


Other stuff

Suicidality is usually measured by the amount of suicidal ideation, elaboration of a plan, access to a means, and prior attempts. Drug use can increase impulsiveness to commit suicide.

If you feel like you have a crisis or any issues regarding suicide, I would be happy if you called 1-800-273-8255 and talked to someone. It might save your life and the happiness of others.

[Amphictyonis]

Premise: I have noticed that the more I learn about philosophy, the more I want to kill myself, which has led me to an interesting set of questions. I began by starting an experiment to see how suicidal I can get without actually killing myself, which forced me to ask:

1. Can suicidalness be measured? Can any kind of desire be measured?
2. If one believes that human life is "sacred" (as I sort of do), meaning it is of special value in some nonspecific way, then one believes that killing should be avoided, except in self-defense. Correct?
3. If so, how would one justify killing oneself? Is suicide a special case, or is it simply 'morally wrong', since it is supposedly avoidable to kill oneself, as well as utterly impossible to kill oneself in an act of self defense?
4. One the other hand, if suicide is a special case, then how is one supposed to approach the question of suicide?
5. If the answer to 1 turns out to be 'Yes', does that mean that by the results of my experiment, I can measure a "will to live"?

This is just a vague recountance of my earlier thought process, so I may have left some things out.

I have the cure for you :) Take two and call me in the morning.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism

[cop an Attitude]

Premise: I have noticed that the more I learn about philosophy, the more I want to kill myself, which has led me to an interesting set of questions. I began by starting an experiment to see how suicidal I can get without actually killing myself, which forced me to ask:

1. Can suicidalness be measured? Can any kind of desire be measured?
2. If one believes that human life is "sacred" (as I sort of do), meaning it is of special value in some nonspecific way, then one believes that killing should be avoided, except in self-defense. Correct?
3. If so, how would one justify killing oneself? Is suicide a special case, or is it simply 'morally wrong', since it is supposedly avoidable to kill oneself, as well as utterly impossible to kill oneself in an act of self defense?
4. One the other hand, if suicide is a special case, then how is one supposed to approach the question of suicide?
5. If the answer to 1 turns out to be 'Yes', does that mean that by the results of my experiment, I can measure a "will to live"?

This is just a vague recountance of my earlier thought process, so I may have left some things out.


Let me start off by saying this. Suicide is a metal thought. Its just like being happy or angry, you can't describe a feeling into words and theory. It's easy. And it will end you.
You can never judge the future. Any damage that is being caused to you now, can potentiality be carried onto whomever was close to you, whether it be a family member, a friend or who found your corpse. Pain like that can create cyclical problems. So please, just die when your meant to.

1. Yes, it can be measured. The will to not see the next day, not to deal with whats around you and ending pain. Once it seems to be the only answer, the only way to live is to die, then maybe you'll have the courage (or the cowardice).

2. Yes

3. Altruistic Suicide maybe, but even then it can leave scars on others while your "at peace". If you don't value your own life and run as soldiers into a combat zone then your a hero, or if your a sickly man that is costing you family a fortune and pull the plug, then theres a sense of relief with sadness. Although, any death where you haven't fulfilled your lifetime is a tragedy, suicide or not.

4. When you feel that you living would cause more hurt than good. When you feel like a helpless leech, not only devaluing your life but throwing it away like trash. Should I stay or should I go, If I go there will be trouble if I stay... and so on...

5. Your will to live is to see the next day. To live life and not dwell on it. By doing and not thinking. Go out and have fun, walk in a park, go to a festival, love. These things will being meaning to yourself and if you form your own identity and individual persona it can be very exciting to live to the next day. Live every day differently and don't stagnate. I don't dread the future, no matter what, it's gunna be different than now.

If you want to end it because your "curious" I can tell you that real life is a gift, here for a reason. Turning to soil takes a lot more patience than suicidal person has. Yeah you could fly off into heaven, or be reincarnated, or travel dimensions, or just rot and lose your cognitive abilities. For the most part, its an addiction to sorrow or depression, so it almost seems natural to end your sorrow. Get a puppy from the pound, not a noose around your neck.