"Ghetto" people, (predominantly black and hispanic) urban poor and lower classes

[Buffalo Souljah]

what can we say about the state of class consciousness (or absense thereof) in these people? lets stir the pot a little.

==update==
I don't understand the deviations this conversation has taken. Take the statement however you must, I am merely throwing it out there. Replace it with "the wretched of the earth", or something else. I grew up in a working class environement and the word "ghetto" is hardly controversial. Please people,grow up.

The point is to form an understanding of the urban impoverished, the lumpenproletariat if you want to use traditional Marxist terminology, which in the US is disproportionately comprised of blacks, Hispanics and other immigrant/minority groups. My query is into the nature and state of class consciousness in this group/class with the intention of perceiving problems & crises in alternative thinking in the impoverished classes. Point being: I'm not the bad guy -- "Don't kill the messenger"

[Adi Shankara]

what can we say about the state of class consciousness (or absense thereof) in these people? lets stir the pot a little.

I don't even want to touch this thread. The way you even call them "ghetto" pejoratively shows about how much you think about them.

What makes you think every ghetto dweller is predominately black or Hispanic? Isn't that kind've ignorant? and then to add injury to the insult, you say "these people". That just shows your lack of solidarity with the impoverished, if you split them into "us" and "them".

Sorry not everyone can be white and upper middle class.

[Blackscare]

Chill the fuck out Sankara. OOO he used the term "ghetto", lets get our self-righteous hats on guys!


Obviously you've never lived in a ghetto. Yes, there are proportionately more black people and hispanics in many ghettos. Stating this and then asking a question from that perspective isn't racist, stating said fact and then inferring certain qualities in black people and hispanics is.

Although, I would say that if you take all the people that live in ghettos in the US and act "ghetto", you'll see that it's a pattern of behavior or outlook that spans black, white, hispanic, etc. So it's best to look at it as an outlook rather than associate it with a particular set of nationalities.


As for political consciousness, I'm not too sure. In places I've lived that could be considered "ghetto", people are more aware of the fact that the system is corrupt and not to be trusted than middle class areas, at least. How this translates into concrete political struggle I'm not sure.

[Magón]

Well I never lived in a US Ghetto, I always lived in Mexican or semi-Cuban Ghettos as a kid. As for US Ghettos, they're more of a four star resort housing place than most Mexican and Cuban Ghettos I've been to. So to say more are Black or Hispanic, isn't all that racist. Most who come from places where Ghettos outside the US, are the majority of where the populous lives, isn't all that big of a deal to themselves, and is rather a up in living style. It's the people born in the US Ghettos, that think they're cool or have it hard in a hardly US Ghetto, that you get these redundant stereotypes that you see on the street, etc.

As for politics, most in US Ghettos probably just don't care. Outside the US, most people living in the Ghettos are pretty conscious about political things. (At least, the Ghettos I've visited are.)

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Well I've grown up around "ghetto" people, others call me a ghetto white boy, and I think I'm doing pretty good in that area of class consciousness. But I have a split opinion on this issue. I know a lot of dudes(and females) that are class conscious but aren't explicitly Marxist or anarchist. They understand collectivism without having to read Marx or Bakunin, and understand racism and imperialism. On the other hand there's a lot of people that feel like they're oppressed, they know something is wrong but they just think getting rich is the answer. Which means you have a lot of Scarface wannabes. Like Greyscare said though, there is generally a distrust in authority, in government, in the system, seeing it as corrupt. But most just accept that while others try to manipulate that, only some ever try to change it.

That's just what I've observed.

I think there's a lot of potential for revolutionaries coming from "these people", myself included of course.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Well I never lived in a US Ghetto, I always lived in Mexican or semi-Cuban Ghettos as a kid. As for US Ghettos, they're more of a four star resort housing place than most Mexican and Cuban Ghettos I've been to. So to say more are Black or Hispanic, isn't all that racist. Most who come from places where Ghettos outside the US, are the majority of where the populous lives, isn't all that big of a deal to themselves, and is rather a up in living style. It's the people born in the US Ghettos, that think they're cool or have it hard in a hardly US Ghetto, that you get these redundant stereotypes that you see on the street, etc.

As for politics, most in US Ghettos probably just don't care. Outside the US, most people living in the Ghettos are pretty conscious about political things. (At least, the Ghettos I've visited are.)

Please stop with the "more proletarian than thou" attitude, it's kind of condescending.

[The Vegan Marxist]

As someone who came out of the projects, & yes I'm white, I would say a good number are aware of people like Malcolm X & the Black Panther Party, & they do follow them to a limited extent. Though, when it comes to being class aware under Marxism, I would say only a small minority of them fit this description unfortunately.

[Raúl Duke]

It probably depends on region and even depending what you consider a ghetto.

In Miami, some people who live in Hialeah call it a "Cuban ghetto" yet Liberty City is the most poor area. Although neither area are exactly projects.

The Cuban "ghetto" Hialeah is from what I gathered filled with a lot of "lower middle class" to working Cubans. They're political opinions are varied, although I think many of the younger generation tend to step out of the usual Republican-voting mold that defines their older generation.

Liberty City is to my knowledge mostly black and very very very poor. I think I heard there is or was a shanty-town there.

In Puerto Rico, the ghetto is essentially mostly confined (in a psycho-geographical sense; i.e. what people consider as a ghetto) to projects. Here, race becomes less of a factor since virtually all in Puerto Rico are hispanic and the prublic housing population demographics are indiscriminate in the matter of race (white, black, etc). The assumption held by many is that most people in projects do not work (or have a legal job) and are on/live on welfare. Whether or not there's even a shred of truth to that (only in PR) is unknown, although many sociologists have pointed out that PR has a large unemployment rate, a large ratio of people on welfare, and a large amount of "idle poor" relative to the US.

The Puerto Rican "middle class" (which in a way is defined as a broad category, literally everyone who works, pays taxes, is not rich, and happens to not be able to meet requirement for most or all forms of welfare programs) tends to dislike needs based social welfare yet love universal social welfare programs (i.e. universal healthcare would be immensely popular in PR; no one would call it socialism or care that it is if they thought it was). Rhetoric directed to this class tends towards labeling this "middle class" as the "working class" who pays for the idle people on welfare (a lie, but pundits like telling this lie and may be generally believed) and are taxed to death for the benefit of the idle rich (i.e they're taxed instead of the rich who should be taxed more). I'm not aware of the perspectives of people in the projects of PR, the middle class tends to be very detached from them.

Even certain segments of the independence movement (including Filiberto Ojeda, at least from a past interview) are very critical of US welfare programs and sees them as something "keeping them down/pacified" since all the welfare is from US federal funds (and PR does not pay federal taxes).

[Kayser_Soso]

I'm white but I spent a great deal of my life living in "the barrio". The thing is that people don't ask to live there. These places were created, not by blacks or Latinos but by those who have put them there. De-industrialization is one thing that caused the rise of ghettoes, the other is discrimination in housing and lending. Realtors often don't show many homes to Latino or black buyers, and banks often deny them loans regardless of income.

[Adi Shankara]

Obviously you've never lived in a ghetto. Yes, there are proportionately more black people and hispanics in many ghettos. Stating this and then asking a question from that perspective isn't racist, stating said fact and then inferring certain qualities in black people and hispanics is.


Actually, I grew up in one. Close to the Sunnydale PJ in SF. I lived in a building full of Filipinos and blacks.

[Magón]

Please stop with the "more proletarian than thou" attitude, it's kind of condescending.

I'm not, I'm just stating what I know from seeing the two sides personally. You can't tell me that most Americans live in the projects/ghettos like say in Mexico or even Cuba. Sure they're different, but coming from a ghetto myself, not in the US, and seeing a US Ghetto of today and the young people, they're really not that bad off shelter and food wise like they complain. Living in a Mexican Ghetto isn't easy living, and lots of young people in the US Ghettos make it out like they've been living in a second/third world Ghetto for all their lives. (They're lucky their parents had the opportunity to bring them up, where clean water, good shelter, and food isn't a hard thing to get for most of them.) Living in a Ghetto in Mexico, clean water isn't and wasn't always something possible in places, and for some, food was a hard thing to get and making a small garden in their backyards weren't easy either. US Ghettos aren't anything like that, and they also have a good supply of electricity to their homes, so they're not always living in the dark most of the time. (This just doesn't happen in Mexican Ghettos, but there are many times in Mexico City where they have power outages that can last for days or sometimes in extreme cases I saw, for weeks.)

I'm not trying to say I'm more "proletariat than thou", but looking at a US Ghetto and a Mexican Ghetto, those living in a US Ghetto, and tell me they've got hard living just isn't going to pass. Sure for some it's true, but for most they've got a good source of living all around them.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I'm not, I'm just stating what I know from seeing the two sides personally. You can't tell me that most Americans live in the projects/ghettos like say in Mexico or even Cuba. Sure they're different, but coming from a ghetto myself, not in the US, and seeing a US Ghetto of today and the young people, they're really not that bad off shelter and food wise like they complain. Living in a Mexican Ghetto isn't easy living, and lots of young people in the US Ghettos make it out like they've been living in a second/third world Ghetto for all their lives. (They're lucky their parents had the opportunity to bring them up, where clean water, good shelter, and food isn't a hard thing to get for most of them.) Living in a Ghetto in Mexico, clean water isn't and wasn't always something possible in places, and for some, food was a hard thing to get and making a small garden in their backyards weren't easy either. US Ghettos aren't anything like that, and they also have a good supply of electricity to their homes, so they're not always living in the dark most of the time. (This just doesn't happen in Mexican Ghettos, but there are many times in Mexico City where they have power outages that can last for days or sometimes in extreme cases I saw, for weeks.)

I'm not trying to say I'm more "proletariat than thou", but looking at a US Ghetto and a Mexican Ghetto, those living in a US Ghetto, and tell me they've got hard living just isn't going to pass. Sure for some it's true, but for most they've got a good source of living all around them.
You see this is condescending to the poor living in the U.S. Yes if you compare say a ghetto in Mexico to one in the U.S. it will probably be worse. But to say they don't "got hard living" is condescending to people and basically saying they're opinion and emotions are invalid, that they should feel lucky they live in the U.S. I could always say people in Mexico don't have hard lives, living in Darfur is much harder, living in Afghanistan is much harder, etc, that you'd be lucky to live in Mexico or Cuba, but I wouldn't because it's insulting to those people. The only people that ever make that argument are patriotic liberals and conservatives, I'm surprised a leftist would make that same argument.

[chegitz guevara]

From my own experience, it's nothing like revolutionaries hope or expect. It's far from homogeneous. There are some people with a high degree of class consciousness, some with an unarticulated class awareness, many who are only out for themselves, and many who are so defeated they aren't even that aware.

[Magón]

You see this is condescending to the poor living in the U.S. Yes if you compare say a ghetto in Mexico to one in the U.S. it will probably be worse. But to say they don't "got hard living" is condescending to people and basically saying they're opinion and emotions are invalid, that they should feel lucky they live in the U.S. I could always say people in Mexico don't have hard lives, living in Darfur is much harder, living in Afghanistan is much harder, etc, that you'd be lucky to live in Mexico or Cuba, but I wouldn't because it's insulting to those people. The only people that ever make that argument are patriotic liberals and conservatives, I'm surprised a leftist would make that same argument.

You can't fight facts. It's the main reason Mexican immigrants come to the US in the first place! As any Mexican Immigrant's reason as to why they came to the US, and they'll tell you, is because the living was easier than in Mexico. That's why people from Afghanistan, Sudan, and other places come to the US. I'm not being condescending, I'm speaking facts here. For a while there actually, in the 50s, Mexican Immigrants were going to Spain for the most part, because of better living, rather than the US.

The only ones I'm insulting, would be the youth of today who claim living in a US Ghetto is hard living, and take what they have for granted or not good enough. (And they make up the majority of who you see in the Ghettos, as their parents are too busy working two or three jobs to keep them living.) Their parents are the ones with the hard living, and it's their parents that are trying to give them the things they want, and keep the roof over their head. Like any parent would. But taking the gifts the parents give the childn in one hand, and then saying that's not good enough, isn't going to cut it with me, and rather rude to say about a place where the parents probably worked hours and hours in Mexico or wherever, just to get or allow their kid(s) to have. You don't see Mexican Youth living in Mexican Ghettos dressed in $64 shoes, with nicely pressed pants, shirt, hat, etc. and complaining about some minor scuff or dirt on their shoes or pants. They don't have the ability to take money in one hand, and then turn around and say what their parents gave them isn't good enough.

Sure there are poor in the US, that don't complain and are grateful for what they have and receive, but most US Ghettos aren't like that. Most American Ghettos are more or less just lower-middle class people who's parents did all this work to get them there.

[The Red Next Door]

Chill the fuck out Sankara. OOO he used the term "ghetto", lets get our self-righteous hats on guys!


Obviously you've never lived in a ghetto. Yes, there are proportionately more black people and hispanics in many ghettos. Stating this and then asking a question from that perspective isn't racist, stating said fact and then inferring certain qualities in black people and hispanics is.

Although, I would say that if you take all the people that live in ghettos in the US and act "ghetto", you'll see that it's a pattern of behavior or outlook that spans black, white, hispanic, etc. So it's best to look at it as an outlook rather than associate it with a particular set of nationalities.


As for political consciousness, I'm not too sure. In places I've lived that could be considered "ghetto", people are more aware of the fact that the system is corrupt and not to be trusted than middle class areas, at least. How this translates into concrete political struggle I'm not sure.


It is not Racist, but it a elitist as hell. the way he worded it.

[Apoi_Viitor]

I don't even want to touch this thread. The way you even call them "ghetto" pejoratively shows about how much you think about them.

What makes you think every ghetto dweller is predominately black or Hispanic? Isn't that kind've ignorant? and then to add injury to the insult, you say "these people". That just shows your lack of solidarity with the impoverished, if you split them into "us" and "them".

Sorry not everyone can be white and upper middle class.

I don't think it was a racist statement - his seperation of "us" (assuming "us" is a predominately middle class and white community, as he suggested in his post) and "them" seemed to me, as merely point out class differences. He was simply asking, "What do you believe is the political concious of America's urban, working class?", albiet, it was certainly poorly phrased.

To answer the question though, I have no idea - I've only lived in upper-middle class/white communities - and I don't want to make pointless assumptions.

[redwog]

I am from the 'hood in Australia :cool: (I actually am...and it definitely ain't South Central - its shit, but not that shit)

Clearly, when we speak of marginalised communities, call them ghettos, barrios whatever, we need to take into account two things. The historical forces that formed them; and their current relationship to capitalism. Consciousness is shaped by material conditions; class consciousness is framed by struggling against capitalism.

In terms of the past, you cannot remove the current condition of African Americans from slavery. With the end of slavery and widening industrialisation in the north, many African Americans held precarious employment in dangerous, underpaid, hyper-exploitative industry. In the south, emancipation resulted in a new phase of racist exploitation through 'Jim Crow Laws' and segregation.

This stays the same until the 1950s with the push from the civil rights movement. In the south, segregation is eventually overcome by appealing to liberal idealism, but this movement was not able to adequately translate to the industrial north - liberalism rarely a suitable force to combat capitalism.

Malcolm X and later the Panther's go a long way to addressing this shortfall. With Malcolm, essentially building a bridge via Black Nationalism and then the Panthers being inspired by Maoist national liberation struggle.

The economic crisis of the early 70s and neoliberalism resulted in a sharp decomposition of the African-American working class; assasinations of militant leaders; deindustrialisation and the injection of crack all played their fare share. The result was a a revolutionary subject locked out of civil society. Indeed, I think that Hip Hop is an important cultural expression of this period.

Revolutionary culture in the 'ghetto' is still in the process of resolving and recovering from a history of slavery contrasted with the what ifs of Marcus, Martin, Malcolm and Huey; whilst all the while trying to survive on the fringes of an economy and society.

The LA Riots (Rebellion, I prefer) were an important moment in this process to study. Proto-forms of class consciousness were readily apparent. (Note: during same general period as Intifada, Tianenmen Square; and Gulf War - not to mention Poll Tax riots in UK)

It is interesting to me, that to some extent the rise and fall of revolutionary consciousness of African America resembles the struggles of the third world. Perhaps because they represent the 3rd world in the 1st (the belly of the beast!). Slavery not colonial imperialism.

In this sense any assessment of 'ghetto' class consciousness cannot be removed from the broader issue of global class consciousness. If there is a lift in consciousness through and as evidenced by struggle, the 'ghetto' will express itself accordingly - as it has always done.

Their degree of oppression alone is not sufficient in delivering an increased class consciousness. I'd almost suggest that consciousness formation is actually premised on quite the opposite...

[Wred]

What pisses me off with the left, the assumption that all white people are middle class morons. I'm seeing it quite alot lately, if whites started saying that all black people are lumpens, we'd be called bigots, racists, fascists etc:rolleyes: Look at the Dead Prez videos etc It's not right.
Lets have real equality instead of this you can only be racist if you are white bullshit.

[Aesop]

Well in the UK, from my observation and wider reading that it is normally the 'lower middle class' and the 'upper working class'(we can easily say that they form a socio-economical layer themselves) which tend to be the most active and from the political vangard of what ever ideology they support.

In this view those forming the strata of 'ghetto'/'chav' and the relativity uneducated people may have less of a coherent ideologically standing and less likely to take a interest in politics, hence ideologies such as revolutionary socialism or even far-right politics do not sustain the support people who find themselves in this strata.

[Wred]

Sadly, the "chavs" etc seem to believe that Labour are the working man's party.:(

[Pirate Utopian]

I'm seeing it quite alot lately, if whites started saying that all black people are lumpens, we'd be called bigots, racists, fascists etc:rolleyes:
If you say that all black people are lumpen, that is racist, yes.

Look at the Dead Prez videos etc It's not right.
What you mean?

[Wred]

What pisses me off with the left, the assumption that all white people are middle class morons. I'm seeing it quite alot lately, if whites started saying that all black people are lumpens, we'd be called bigots, racists, fascists etc:rolleyes: Look at the Dead Prez videos etc It's not right.
Lets have real equality instead of this you can only be racist if you are white bullshit.


If you say that all black people are lumpen, that is racist, yes.

What you mean?

So why are us whites all portrayed as bourgeois? Is that not racist then?:rolleyes:
And I mean "Dead Prez - Hell Yeah" this video. Google it. If I made a music video of a bunch of whites running up and attacking black people in the ghettoes, it would be condemned as being fascist. We are becoming the Left wing equivalent of the Jews.:rolleyes:

Seriously, these parts of the left need to be changed.

[redwog]

What is racist is the assumption that just because in the white bourgeois media, any portrayal of a black man is a representation of all black men therefore in a Dead Prez clip, the middle class whitey family is supposed to represent all white working class people.

At no point are they about killing whitey, nor are they suggesting that all whites are worthy of dehumanisation.

Bourgeois media analogies for the 'other' races should not be the basis we interpret racial politics in all media, particularly revolutionary media.

[Kayser_Soso]

When we look at media portrayals of white people, keep in mind two things:

1. The media is owned predominately by white people.

2. Look at the white people they display in these typical suburban images. They are usually almost always WASPs, and upper-middle class if not rich. Talking about class is a big no-no in American discourse, so a lot of these portrayals are aimed more at a class of people, consciously or otherwise.

[Aesop]

Sadly, the "chavs" etc seem to believe that Labour are the working man's party.:(

Not really, most that i have encountered have the attitude of 'fuck politics' and are disillusioned and if they do vote for a party it is often for what they are offering not for ideological reasons.

[Kayser_Soso]

What pisses me off with the left, the assumption that all white people are middle class morons. I'm seeing it quite alot lately, if whites started saying that all black people are lumpens, we'd be called bigots, racists, fascists etc:rolleyes: Look at the Dead Prez videos etc It's not right.
Lets have real equality instead of this you can only be racist if you are white bullshit.


Look dude, you are really coming off as a typical right-winger, pissed off about shit that isn't really happening and is mostly in your mind. I don't think there is anybody here who believes that only white people can be racist(a common charge by right-wingers). Moreover, you pick out some rap video and make a big deal of it, like any of this matters in day-to-day life. And might I ask what record label Dead Prez is on? Could it be yet another white-owned hip-hop label?

For the record I think I have made it clear that I, like many others here, am "white", yet nobody has accused me of being middle-class. Moron maybe, but that's a better label than middle-class.

[Aesop]

So why are us whites all portrayed as bourgeois? Is that not racist then?:rolleyes:

Do you live in the Uk?

[redwog]

Currently Dead Prez is actually independent of any corporate or 'white' record label.

Secondly, racism is not something that one group is capable of and another not. It is a system of oppression that operates under capitalism.

A better question to pose, is who benefits?

African Americans hating whitey has a minimal systemic impact upon the material conditions of white workers. Whereas the reverse is symptomatic of how racism serves the interest of the ruling class, and creates class division as a weakness.

I am not offended by the film clip in the slightest. I am also not the least bit threatened by any 'reverse-racism'.

I wonder sometimes how we get to these points in debates...

[Adi Shankara]

And I mean "Dead Prez - Hell Yeah" this video. Google it. If I made a music video of a bunch of whites running up and attacking black people in the ghettoes, it would be condemned as being fascist. We are becoming the Left wing equivalent of the Jews.:rolleyes:

Seriously, these parts of the left need to be changed.

what's that supposed to mean?

[Wred]

what's that supposed to mean?

Getting the blame for everything. We control the media, we control this and that.:rolleyes: Even the mention of the word "white" you all use it as a negative thing. The Left is degenerating into some black nationalist, pan-African bullshit.

[Wred]

Do you live in the Uk?

Yes.

[Kayser_Soso]

Getting the blame for everything. We control the media, we control this and that.:rolleyes:

So are you disputing the fact that the majority controlling figures in the American media, CEOs, stockholders, writers, and producers, are white? If so, what ethnicity are they?



Even the mention of the word "white" you all use it as a negative thing "white" media etc.

Uh...I think must have got lost on your way to Stormfront. Let me break it down to you. According to the social norms of American society, I am "white". My skin is "white", my eyes and hair are dark but I have Caucasoid features and my background is Irish/Ukrainian, i.e. European. Of course in American history, "white" did not always equal "European" or of European ancestry. Irish, Jews, Italians, various Slavs, and even German Catholics once had a hard time in America for many years before they all came to be seen as "white."

There is no ethnicity or culture known as "white". There is no "white" homeland. People fitting the "white" phenotype, that is possessing features we consider to be "white", even European, do not only live in Europe, nor are they necessarily the descendents of Europeans. People with such features may be found in the Middle East, Central Asia, Latin America, and even parts of China. A great deal of such people do not have Indo-European roots either. There is no bond between me and other people who are descended from Europeans, or Europeans themselves. I have far more in common with a Latino-American, particularly because of my birthplace in the Southwest but also by the fact that I am American, than I do with an Irishman or a Ukrainian(aside from the fact that I often visit Ukraine and live in a former-Soviet country with similar conditions).

Hence I like to write "white" in this way, because this term is largely meaningless outside of the US and other countries founded by European colonialists(often of mixed heritage).

Likewise there is no bond between me and those people who own the media either. If they make fun of white people, it has nothing to do with me because I am not that suburban WASP stereotype. In fact this is more a reflection of the type of people who work in media than myself.

Again, the idea that white people are being "blamed for everything" is a conservative meme with little basis in reality. Look at how often, for example, the media points at the "black community" and asks questions akin to "what's wrong with the black community?" Even when statistics show black youth making improvements surpassing that of white youth(for example, less binge drinking, less drug use, less drinking and driving, etc.), the media always makes it clear that there is some kind of problem in the black community, and if anyone suggests it has something to do with on-going institutional discrimination, they are attacked as "playing the race card."

[Wred]

:laugh: Dirty slavshit, you all got trolled

[Wred]

Bunch of armchair commandos:laugh:
FOR THE REVULUSHUN GUYS !!!! LETS FREE THE OPPRESSED!!!

Just accept you fucking failed and now work in a factory, it's life. You hate the system for your own failures. Now you want to spread that misery to others. If you would have been a succesful business owner you wouldn't give a shit about socialism.

[iskrabronstein]

The pseudo-racist bullshit was adequately dealt with, so time to let it lie.

Being in the South, ghetto is commonly used by most "middle-class" people to refer, not only to areas of town that are genuinely economically underdeveloped and racially segregated, but also working-class neighborhoods that are often racially mixed. Obviously this broad categorization encompasses a large strata of political and social outlooks that undoubtedly vary regionally, and it's really difficult to advance a broad analysis.

But from personal experience as a temp this last summer, where many of those working general labor with me were from areas of our town considered the ghetto or the "hood", I found a very strong receptiveness to ideas of mutual aid and collective organization. In my opinion, this is a product of the pervasiveness of mass-produced ghetto culture - the ideas of the left, when presented in a practical way, are such a contrast to the prevailing individualism that they immediately appeal to people who, like I, live paycheck to paycheck.

So while I cannot speak for the general level of class-consciousness, I would argue there is a very strong, and underexploited, receptiveness to consciousness raising.

[Wred]

The pseudo-racist bullshit was adequately dealt with, so time to let it lie.

Being in the South, ghetto is commonly used by most "middle-class" people to refer, not only to areas of town that are genuinely economically underdeveloped and racially segregated, but also working-class neighborhoods that are often racially mixed. Obviously this broad categorization encompasses a large strata of political and social outlooks that undoubtedly vary regionally, and it's really difficult to advance a broad analysis.

But from personal experience as a temp this last summer, where many of those working general labor with me were from areas of our town considered the ghetto or the "hood", I found a very strong receptiveness to ideas of mutual aid and collective organization. In my opinion, this is a product of the pervasiveness of mass-produced ghetto culture - the ideas of the left, when presented in a practical way, are such a contrast to the prevailing individualism that they immediately appeal to people who, like I, live paycheck to paycheck.

So while I cannot speak for the general level of class-consciousness, I would argue there is a very strong, and underexploited, receptiveness to consciousness raising.

BLAH BLAH WORKERS OPPRESSED LOLOLOL ETC :rolleyes:

[iskrabronstein]

You, sir, are a credit to your movement.

[Wred]

You, sir, are a credit to your movement.

Don't you have dumb shit factory workers to "free"?:rolleyes: Starve the fucking lot of them.

[Wred]

You've all got your lips tightly wrapped around nigger dick in here. Self hating bunch of faggots. I'm sure you all want to "liberate" some fucking faggots.;)

[Adi Shankara]

You've all got your lips tightly wrapped around nigger dick in here. Self hating bunch of faggots. I'm sure you all want to "liberate" some fucking faggots.;)



:laugh: Dirty slavshit, you all got trolled

I'm a fortune teller...and I see a ban in your future! see you never, troll!

[Wred]

I see a ban in your future!

Keep on sucking that nigger dick. Look at your picture for fucks sake.:rolleyes: Nigger worshipping, self hating morons.

[Adi Shankara]

Keep on sucking that nigger dick. Look at your picture for fucks sake.:rolleyes: Nigger worshipping, self hating morons.

his race means nothing to me, seeing as I see people who hate other races as scared little boys who are afraid to face the inconvenient truth that race is only used as a means by upper classes to keep the population in fear, thus out of power...

but cool bro story nonetheless! :lol:

[Wred]

his race means nothing to me, seeing as I see people who hate other races as scared little boys who are afraid to face the inconvenient truth that race is only used as a means by upper classes to keep the population in fear, thus out of power...

but cool bro story nonetheless! :lol:


:rolleyes: I see that tin foil hat is tightly on your head.

[iskrabronstein]

Dude don't feed

[Kayser_Soso]

:laugh: Dirty slavshit, you all got trolled


Yeah, you came on here and couldn't even back up your bullshit, but we got "trolled". Seems to me if your ideas had any merit you would be able to defend them and at least attempt to refute our arguments instead of going to pieces like you did. Remember, the one who is "trolled" is the one who breaks down, much like you did(I've got a sneaking feeling you'll find a way to read this).

Kinda reminds me of something:

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/7/73/Trollface.png

[Aesop]

Keep on sucking that nigger dick. Look at your picture for fucks sake.:rolleyes: Nigger worshipping, self hating morons.

ha

Now why would you humilate yourself like that?

i already was thinking you were a bit of a chump now i know your probably one of those kids who stay on their computers all day posing as some internet tough guy, ***** about lefties, mastubate over thatcher.

[Kayser_Soso]

You know some mod is going to close this thread, but I feel it should be saved somewhere for posterity. Let it be known that before this guy went off the deep end(essentially trolling himself), we were all pretty tolerant of the guy and attempted to engage with him.

The thing that gets me about these White Nationalist and assorted righties isn't that they have those views per se, but that they come in here accusing us of all kinds of things that we are not doing, and then get all pissed when we point this out. Then they go on and say we don't debate, we just call everyone racist. Bullshit.

If someone accuses me of being a self-hating white person, I want answers, I want definitions. If someone accuses me of claiming only white people can be racist(something that I would never do, and neither would others on this board), I want a goddamned "oh I'm sorry," after I point out the fact that nobody is making this claim.

The thing is these people accuse us of "political correctness", that we don't debate, we just label people and shut them up. This jackass had plenty of opportunity to present his arguments and engage with our counter-arguments, but instead he degenerates into his indisputably racist rant. Perhaps he was disappointed that we didn't fit into his stereotypical leftist caricature. Yet if I had my prejudices challenged thusly, I would have considered re-thinking my understanding of leftists and leftist politics, instead of throwing a tantrum.

[Aesop]

In addition the term political correctness is used by the right to critcise things they do not agree with. When in fact any position on a subject is being 'politically correct.

For example, defending christian marriages is being politically correct because the assertion is politically and the assertion is presented as correct.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

You can't fight facts. It's the main reason Mexican immigrants come to the US in the first place! As any Mexican Immigrant's reason as to why they came to the US, and they'll tell you, is because the living was easier than in Mexico. That's why people from Afghanistan, Sudan, and other places come to the US. I'm not being condescending, I'm speaking facts here. For a while there actually, in the 50s, Mexican Immigrants were going to Spain for the most part, because of better living, rather than the US.

The only ones I'm insulting, would be the youth of today who claim living in a US Ghetto is hard living, and take what they have for granted or not good enough. (And they make up the majority of who you see in the Ghettos, as their parents are too busy working two or three jobs to keep them living.) Their parents are the ones with the hard living, and it's their parents that are trying to give them the things they want, and keep the roof over their head. Like any parent would. But taking the gifts the parents give the childn in one hand, and then saying that's not good enough, isn't going to cut it with me, and rather rude to say about a place where the parents probably worked hours and hours in Mexico or wherever, just to get or allow their kid(s) to have. You don't see Mexican Youth living in Mexican Ghettos dressed in $64 shoes, with nicely pressed pants, shirt, hat, etc. and complaining about some minor scuff or dirt on their shoes or pants. They don't have the ability to take money in one hand, and then turn around and say what their parents gave them isn't good enough.

Sure there are poor in the US, that don't complain and are grateful for what they have and receive, but most US Ghettos aren't like that. Most American Ghettos are more or less just lower-middle class people who's parents did all this work to get them there.
It's not facts that I'm arguing against, I've already stated that the U.S. is not the hardest place to live in, what I'm saying is you shouldn't be trying to minimize the issue by saying it's better here than it is somewhere else, that's the same bullshit that teachers tell us growing up so that the youth don't try to change things. "Well at least you're not in Africa starving right now, you should be thankful" is a common phrase among the capitalists to justify the conditions that poor people live in in the most wealthiest nation on Earth. You're just furthering stereotypes now though, and not even including the fact that adults live in the ghetto. You speak as if unemployment is not even heard of, classifying the ghetto as lower-middle class and kids as spoiled, all of which I don't consider being part of the ghetto. There is a difference between people leaving the ghetto into better neighborhoods but bringing the ghetto culture with them, which is what you seem to be talking about, because growing up I went shopping for clothes twice a year, one for summer wear, and another for winter wear. I've never spent more than $100 on any clothing or apparel.

[Reznov]

From my own experience, it's nothing like revolutionaries hope or expect. It's far from homogeneous. There are some people with a high degree of class consciousness, some with an unarticulated class awareness, many who are only out for themselves, and many who are so defeated they aren't even that aware.

I think that the many who are out for themselves is a understatement. Because honestly, lets face the facts, most only care about getting money for themselves and don't care about some "class" war.

How do we educate and try to win people like this over?

[Magón]

It's not facts that I'm arguing against, I've already stated that the U.S. is not the hardest place to live in, what I'm saying is you shouldn't be trying to minimize the issue by saying it's better here than it is somewhere else, that's the same bullshit that teachers tell us growing up so that the youth don't try to change things. "Well at least you're not in Africa starving right now, you should be thankful" is a common phrase among the capitalists to justify the conditions that poor people live in in the most wealthiest nation on Earth. You're just furthering stereotypes now though, and not even including the fact that adults live in the ghetto. You speak as if unemployment is not even heard of, classifying the ghetto as lower-middle class and kids as spoiled, all of which I don't consider being part of the ghetto. There is a difference between people leaving the ghetto into better neighborhoods but bringing the ghetto culture with them, which is what you seem to be talking about, because growing up I went shopping for clothes twice a year, one for summer wear, and another for winter wear. I've never spent more than $100 on any clothing or apparel.

I'm not minimizing anything, it's fact that US Ghettos are better off than most other nations Ghettos. And it's the younger generation, who make it out to be worse than it really is. It's not a stereotype, when that's what you see more than 50% of the time in US Ghettos.

Unemployment is heard of, I never mentioned or hinted that it wasn't unheard of. I'm just saying that those living in the Ghettos of the US, are better of than those living in a Mexican Ghetto for example. Go around, to places, and ask the if they'd rather live in a US Ghetto than a Mexican, African, or whatever Ghetto. You'll see they'd much rather live in a US Ghetto because US Ghettos aren't as "ghetto" as a Mexican or African Ghetto. Like I already said, anywhere else that's outside the US or Western World really, lives their lives in mostly Ghettos rather than Suburbs like most Americans do. Those living in US Ghettos, are lower-middle class people by US Standards and to the rest of the world probably upper-middle class by the standard of living. You may not consider lower-middle class to be "Ghetto", but it is in the US. Go to one, find out what the range of lower-middle class is, and you'll see that those living in US Ghettos are lower-middle class and it's the lower classes that are out on the the street.

And you don't seem to understand, that the majority of people living in US Ghettos, that "bring" the Ghetto lifestyle or culture with them, are those who were brought up in the US Ghetto, but who's parents were brought up in a really terrible Ghetto somewhere else in the world. They're fake Ghetto kids, who just make it out like they've got it so hard, but their parents bend backwards at work so their kids can take what's given, but then say it's not good enough. It's the younger generation, that keeps these stereotypes up, and it's the American populous that accepts them. Mainly because Americans are so xenophobic when it comes to another nations Ghettos, that they take what the American Stereotype Ghetto is, and assume it's all like that in the world. Well it's not like that, and it's the youth in these "ghettos" that make me sick to hear them with their expensive clothes and words saying their home which is in very good condition, is horrible. (They're greedy, and think that by speaking like they're so terribly low on the ladder, that they'll become a great rap super star one day.)

Go to any US Ghetto, and I'm sure you'll see most youth with nice clothes and well kept clothes on. Go to a Mexican Ghetto, and you won't see that at all. And if so, very rarely. When I lived in Mexico as a boy, I didn't even get a chance to buy clothes twice a year, or even once a year in most cases. I had to get hand-me-downs from others that were like three or more years old, and ratty for the most part. But I took them with appreciation because I knew that's all my parents could get me at the time. But these youths of the US Ghettos are totally different. Especially in Hispanic communities that I've been to many times. They dress like some rapper wannabe gang banger, wearing Phat Farm, G-Unit, and other crap that's overly expensive and ridiculous, while their Mexican Cousin in Mexico is wearing ratted clothes because that's all their parents can afford.

You just don't seem to understand that these stereotypes, are what the youth of today, make it seem like the US Ghettos are worse than they really are. But then again, they come walking around with $64 dollar shoes, pants, etc. so it's clear they're not so bad off. You don't see them with hand-me-downs, you see them in brand new or somewhat brand new clothes, with words coming out of their mouths like they've been living in a African or Mexican Ghetto all their lives. Most in Mexican Ghettos, the youth don't even have a chance to go to school, and in US Ghettos that youth have all the chance in the world to. But they take all this stuff for granted, that their parents worked so hard to get. It's not a stereotype, go and see for yourself if you want to continue this discussion. Because frankly, all I see you saying is the stereotype that the youth make it out to be, rather than what it really is.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I think that the many who are out for themselves is a understatement. Because honestly, lets face the facts, most only care about getting money for themselves and don't care about some "class" war.

How do we educate and try to win people like this over?

Well, given the fact that most of us here on RevLeft were originally capitalists, I would say we do what was done to us in order to wake them up.

[Os Cangaceiros]

(This thread really became strange!)

Anyway, I think that leftist excursions into the ghetto have largely been met with failure, especially in recent decades (in the 60's/70's there were groups in/from lower-working class communities like the Black Panther Party, Detroit Revolutionary Union Movement and the BLA). Listening to leftists talk about life in the ghetto is pretty embarrasing, since most have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. Hell, I grew up in a community with about 100 or so other people, 99% of whom were white (although none of whom were particularly well-off).

I am interested in certain analyses of riots and uprisings in the ghetto (in Detroit, LA etc.) that seek to connect them to the greater anti-capitalist movement (like the type that Black Mask did back in the 60's and Fire To The Prisons and some theorists like Negri do today).

[Kayser_Soso]

Well, given the fact that most of us here on RevLeft were originally capitalists, I would say we do what was done to us in order to wake them up.

I would seriously hope that nobody here was or is a capitalist. Approving or accepting of the capitalist system and its corresponding ideology, of course- capitalist, no.

[Buffalo Souljah]

It is interesting to me, that to some extent the rise and fall of revolutionary consciousness of African America resembles the struggles of the third world. Perhaps because they represent the 3rd world in the 1st (the belly of the beast!). Slavery not colonial imperialism.Yes! The luxuries of the rich are built on the backs of the *global* working classes! This must be understood before any progress can come about!

Being in the South, ghetto is commonly used by most "middle-class" people to refer, not only to areas of town that are genuinely economically underdeveloped and racially segregated, but also working-class neighborhoods that are often racially mixed. Obviously this broad categorization encompasses a large strata of political and social outlooks that undoubtedly vary regionally, and it's really difficult to advance a broad analysis.

I understand exactly what you mean. There is just so much more poverty in general in the South, and underdevelopment, that a much larger slice of the population is impoverished. I am very intersted in Southern black class consciousness, specifically in the contemporary context. What is going on down here between and Atlanta and Houston that is of any interest to anyone? These are the questions that should interest anyone with a revolutionary agenda. For instance, in Tuscaloosa, Alabama the Tuscaloosa Unity Project set up community gardens in the West End, a traditionally underprivelaged black neighborhood, and has additionally esablished several "Unity Houses", community-wide restoration projects where a house is leased and repaired by the neighborhood. There were similar projects going on in Binghamton 2 summers ago, but you can see these things tend to be much more developed in the North.

There are decided hangups and problems with infrastructural and cultural reforms in the South: lack of public space and mass transit makes it inconvenient to mobilize groups, communities are very scattered (no populstion centers to speak of), and the political system itself is not conducive to change, after decades of rigged elections, intimidation and gerrymandering. This needs to chane and we need to take action! Martin Luther King took action in the 50's and 60's and brought racism to the center stage of national agenda. We need to take the racist, calssist war of the rich financier capitalists and rich scumbags directly to the streets! Enough is enough!

[Klaatu]

On the other hand there's a lot of people that feel like they're oppressed, they know something is wrong but they just think getting rich is the answer.

That is sad. Sadder yet, are the poor folks who line up at the local urban liquor store to buy state lottery tickets, hoping to "hit the lotto" and get rich, and get out of the ghetto. The state is of no help, running these gambling schemes, giving these people false hope. If these people knew that the odds are incredibly stacked against them, they would put their spare money in a bank account, rather than flushing it down the drain by gambling it away.

[Buffalo Souljah]

You don't see Mexican Youth living in Mexican Ghettos dressed in $64 shoes, with nicely pressed pants, shirt, hat, etc. and complaining about some minor scuff or dirt on their shoes or pants. They don't have the ability to take money in one hand, and then turn around and say what their parents gave them isn't good enough. well, it is not so much that American urban poor can afford these commodities, but that the system of finance capital (credit) and tools of bourgeosie coecion (the advertising industry) concinve poor, uneducated mothers of 3, 4 or 5 children that they can just "put it on their credit card"; so, they are now poor, underprivelaged and in debt to credit sharks-- but at least they have those Jordans!


I am from the 'hood in Australia :cool: (I actually am...and it definitely ain't South Central - its shit, but not that shit)

Clearly, when we speak of marginalised communities, call them ghettos, barrios whatever,
indeed, the semantics, or "long and short" of it are insignificant;

we need to take into account two things. The historical forces that formed them; and their current relationship to capitalism.check;
Consciousness is shaped by material conditions; class consciousness is framed by struggling against capitalism. well, struggling against the exploitation of labor and the private ownership of the means to production would be more accurate assessment;


In terms of the past, you cannot remove the current condition of African Americans from slavery. With the end of slavery and widening industrialisation in the north, many African Americans held precarious employment in dangerous, underpaid, hyper-exploitative industry. In the south, emancipation resulted in a new phase of racist exploitation through 'Jim Crow Laws' and segregation.

This stays the same until the 1950s with the push from the civil rights movement. In the south, segregation is eventually overcome by appealing to liberal idealism, but this movement was not able to adequately translate to the industrial north - liberalism rarely a suitable force to combat capitalism.Well, theoretically, if you had a truly functioning democracy then any economic system would be suitable choice; but since we live in a political culture that thrives off of capital, there is no ideology besides revolution that can fix or alter the system.


Malcolm X and later the Panther's go a long way to addressing this shortfall. With Malcolm, essentially building a bridge via Black Nationalism and then the Panthers being inspired by Maoist national liberation struggle.

The economic crisis of the early 70s and neoliberalism resulted in a sharp decomposition of the African-American working class; assasinations of militant leaders; deindustrialisation and the injection of crack all played their fare share. The result was a a revolutionary subject locked out of civil society. Indeed, I think that Hip Hop is an important cultural expression of this period.

Revolutionary culture in the 'ghetto' is still in the process of resolving and recovering from a history of slavery contrasted with the what ifs of Marcus, Martin, Malcolm and Huey; whilst all the while trying to survive on the fringes of an economy and society.

The LA Riots (Rebellion, I prefer) were an important moment in this process to study. Proto-forms of class consciousness were readily apparent. (Note: during same general period as Intifada, Tianenmen Square; and Gulf War - not to mention Poll Tax riots in UK)

It is interesting to me, that to some extent the rise and fall of revolutionary consciousness of African America resembles the struggles of the third world. Perhaps because they represent the 3rd world in the 1st (the belly of the beast!). Slavery not colonial imperialism.

In this sense any assessment of 'ghetto' class consciousness cannot be removed from the broader issue of global class consciousness. If there is a lift in consciousness through and as evidenced by struggle, the 'ghetto' will express itself accordingly - as it has always done.

Their degree of oppression alone is not sufficient in delivering an increased class consciousness. I'd almost suggest that consciousness formation is actually premised on quite the opposite...Very well articulated.


When we look at media portrayals of white people, keep in mind two things:

1. The media is owned predominately by white people.

2. Look at the white people they display in these typical suburban images. They are usually almost always WASPs, and upper-middle class if not rich. Talking about class is a big no-no in American discourse, so a lot of these portrayals are aimed more at a class of people, consciously or otherwise.


So are you disputing the fact that the majority controlling figures in the American media, CEOs, stockholders, writers, and producers, are white? If so, what ethnicity are they?Meet the Joozians, galactic media tycoons:
http://southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com/shared/characters/non-human/joozians.jpg


for example, the media points at the "black community" and asks questions akin to "what's wrong with the black community?" Even when statistics show black youth making improvements surpassing that of white youth(for example, less binge drinking, less drug use, less drinking and driving, etc.), the media always makes it clear that there is some kind of problem in the black community, and if anyone suggests it has something to do with on-going institutional discrimination, they are attacked as "playing the race card."good point


The pseudo-racist bullshit was adequately dealt with, so time to let it lie.

Being in the South, ghetto is commonly used by most "middle-class" people to refer, not only to areas of town that are genuinely economically underdeveloped and racially segregated, but also working-class neighborhoods that are often racially mixed. Obviously this broad categorization encompasses a large strata of political and social outlooks that undoubtedly vary regionally, and it's really difficult to advance a broad analysis.

But from personal experience as a temp this last summer, where many of those working general labor with me were from areas of our town considered the ghetto or the "hood", I found a very strong receptiveness to ideas of mutual aid and collective organization. In my opinion, this is a product of the pervasiveness of mass-produced ghetto culture - the ideas of the left, when presented in a practical way, are such a contrast to the prevailing individualism that they immediately appeal to people who, like I, live paycheck to paycheck.

So while I cannot speak for the general level of class-consciousness, I would argue there is a very strong, and underexploited, receptiveness to consciousness raising.


That is sad. Sadder yet, are the poor folks who line up at the local urban liquor store to buy state lottery tickets, hoping to "hit the lotto" and get rich, and get out of the ghetto. The state is of no help, running these gambling schemes, giving these people false hope. If these people knew that the odds are incredibly stacked against them, they would put their spare money in a bank account, rather than flushing it down the drain by gambling it away.
that is interesting. I live in Alabama where lottery is illegal, a double whammy, meaning that our poor spend their heard earned money driving to the state line to support Georgia and Florida's corrupt governments because our own corrupt government is too bigoted to allow the nasty habit themselves. That is, until AFL-CIO-endorsed candidate Ron Sparks gets elected in November...

[Ele'ill]

From my experience I see a lot of these people being extremely willing to try their hand at organizing and making their environment a better living space. There will always be punk ass throw their cigarette pack plastic on the ground kind of assholes. They change- and for the right reasons- the rich mother fuckers down the road didn't change for the right reasons. Isn't if funny how being 'nothing' gets you a step closer to finding yourself and finding a true balance in the world around you than being 'rich-everything' does?

I welcome those rich people too but I haven't seen the sharp wit of the ghetto about them.

[Adi Shankara]

Well, given the fact that most of us here on RevLeft were originally capitalists, I would say we do what was done to us in order to wake them up.

I can proudly say I've been a communist since I was first old enough to be well read at about 12 years old, so 8 years later, I'm still going strong.

I never supported capitalism. ever.

[Buffalo Souljah]

From my experience I see a lot of these people being extremely willing to try their hand at organizing and making their environment a better living space. There will always be punk ass throw their cigarette pack plastic on the ground kind of assholes. ....
Tell me about it


I never supported capitalism. ever.
You're starting to sound like the polar inversion of a US Congressman. I think of the Palin interview with whoever on CBS:

(Note: we'll just call the dude "Brokaw")
Palin momentarily stops telling knock knock jokes and farts.
Brokaw: "So..Ms. Palin, you were in support of the bridge until Congress pulled the plug... you even wore the T shirt, right?"
Palin: (indistinguishable grunts, farting sounds)
Brokaw: "But, you were solidly for it before you were against it"
Palin farts
Browak gets up, slaps Sarah Palin and leaves

[bricolage]

Well, given the fact that most of us here on RevLeft were originally capitalists

I never supported capitalism. ever.
You are not a capitalist because of what you 'support', you are a capitalist because of your social relations to the means of production.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Well I supported capitalism when I was younger, unfortunately. But eventually I broke off from those beliefs & started embracing Communism.

[Gabe87]

"Ghetto's" as they call them should be the main objectives of a social and political action.
They are the "living" representation of social discrimination and injustice and thats the reason why communism should try to help the people from this area to gain their class coscience wich is the first step on the process of organizing a social struggle.

In italy we have "ghetto's" especialy now with the raging number of imigration and consequent discrimination by locals.
They are the most delicate "area" of our society and various criminal organization are starting to build their parasite system on them exploiting this explosive situation to their own dirty purposes.

[Adi Shankara]

You are not a capitalist because of what you 'support', you are a capitalist because of your social relations to the means of production.

considering I have no control over means of production, that doesn't change so much in terms of things, does it?

[R_P_A_S]

people who get all bend out of shape when you use the term "ghetto people" in order to make a point or simply try to give some context to your question are people who live inside their communist books and marxist wet dreams. probably never even associated them selves with average working class people from the slums etc.

ignore them.

[syndicat]

maybe it would help to talk about the meaning of the word "ghetto" in the American context. a good book on this, by the way, is "American Apartheid." this talks about the process of the ghettoization of American blacks. A "ghetto", as they use it, refers to a group who are forced to live in an area that is overwhelmingly made up of their same ethnic/racial group, due to systemic discrimination. there have been studies done on this in the U.S. which talk about what is called "relative spatial separation" of a particular ethnic/racial group.

The group that is spatially separated to the highest extent in the U.S. are blacks, that is, they are more likely to live in an area that is overwhelmingly black. Latinos and Asians are spatially separated to a lesser degree.

Ghettoization of American blacks was, to a large extent, a product of the mass migration of African-Americans from the south to cities in the north and west beginning during World War 1, but accelerating in the '40s and '50s. In the '30s 40 percent of African-Americans worked in agriculture in the south, mostly in the cotton industry. Mechanization of cotton and other crops in the '40s lead to loss of jobs. But these displaced rural workers often had few skills that would help them in the urban job market, so black ghettos also were characterized by very high "structural" unemployment. but they would have worked if jobs were available.