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View Full Version : Recent expulsions from the ISO. ISO following SWP's trend?



Soviet dude
6th August 2010, 21:28
The following message was posted on Leftist Trainspotters:

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Here are three links to what appears to be a spate of recent expulsions and
resignations from the ISO from somewhat-long-term members. Anyone know what's
up?

I was expelled from the ISO for oppositional activity
http://tinyurl.com/expelledfromiso

Why I Left the ISO and What's Next
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=415839673284&id=410137

Why I Got Kicked Out of the ISO—And Why it Doesn't Matter
http://tinyurl.com/2bcrsv3
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What are we to make of this? ISO is, whether we like it nor, the largest group in America. Them beginning to take a harder approach with their "members" will have consequences even beyond themselves. Serious Leftists expelled from the ISO will either construct new, separate groups or join others (I expect Solidarity will gain some new people, as their group seems quite adept at leeching from ISO, and one of their paid organizers is already closely following the Facebook threads).

A lot of these people being expelled are also not white, with some referring to it as the "Bleaching" of ISO (as if it wasn't already 99% white...). I read an estimate this amounts to 10-15% of their entire North East operations, which is pretty serious. That's not only a loss of 10-15% of your people, but basically the same amount of people in the area who are now your enemies and will discourage new recruits from getting seriously involved.

Wanted Man
6th August 2010, 21:39
I can't read any of them without a Facebook account, which I really don't want. Could you hook us up? :p

Over here, one IS person also had to leave over political disagreements, although it wasn't quite an expulsion, and I don't think it was a very important member. Oh well. Not terribly interesting anyway.

Soviet dude
6th August 2010, 21:45
I'll post the three notes but not the comments on them (one has like 200 comments). In order of appearance:


I was expelled from the ISO for oppositional activity

Saturday, July 24, 2010 at 11:27am


After nearly seven years of dedicated work as an ISO member I was summarily expelled about a month ago. The tensions had been building for well over a year, but I was still surprised by the response, as all tensions were around political (mostly tactical) disagreements that I believed to be well within the confines of democratic centralism. A year and a half ago myself and one other comrade voluntarily left the branch committee because of ongoing disagreements with other local leaders. Our intention was to focus on doing the work and concede the running of the branch to others, but the disagreements continued. Recently we began to clearly articulate an alternative perspective for our branch's work. 8 comrades in the branch contributed to a document that outlined how our branch could be more effectively relating to the broad left in DC. The document also articulated a criticism of dogmatic, rigid tendencies in the ISO and attempted to explain the origins of this rigidity.

Shortly after the publishing of this document a member of the ISO steering committee arrived in DC and kicked out me and one other comrade. The reasons were either vague or false (in different cases), but it was clearly a response to us openly and democratically organizing an opposition. Since our expulsion, 7 other members of the branch (and counting) have resigned in solidarity. We are now an independent group of socialists operating in the DC area. I feel many things about this experience, sadness, betrayal, but more than anything, I think I feel relieved that the whole ugly experience is over. Maybe liberation can be handed down from above (lol). I am still committed as firmly as ever to the theory that the self emancipation of the working class is the path to a better world. I also am convinced that the ISO has distortions in its practice that will prevent it from playing its intended role. I believed that these distortions could be corrected by internal debate and struggle, but the degeneration has apparently set in quite deeply. Below is an excerpt from our document in which we attempt to apply a dialectical analysis to the historical experience of the ISO with the intention of explaining the distortions.

I am appealing my expulsion as a matter of principle. I was never given any warning that my activities (which were open) of organizing an opposition could lead to expulsion. I was also never warned that any other non political activity I was supposedly involved in could lead to expulsion either. I know that a number of other people have been expelled from the ISO in other cities, it seems the leadership is tightening their grip and purging the organization of impurities. This is very sad as it seems that the objective conditions for socialist action are ripening. The ISO is well positioned to lead in some areas, while they are simultaneously withdrawing into more and more sectarian behavior. The process will be mixed and uneven, but it seems that the trend is clearly towards sectarianism. This saddens me as I gained so much from my membership in this group and had such high hopes for its potential, but the struggle continues.

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Historical Context of Our Method of Organizing

The past 30 years have been a very bad time for the left and the working class in this country. The far left groups that came out of the 60's and 70's with momentum all withered, splintered, or evaporated during the 1980's. The ISO, an upstart from 1977 scoffed at by many other revolutionaries at the time, proved the most resilient through the lean political years, more able to flexibly apply Marxism than any other group. In the 90's and 2000's the objective conditions for building revolutionary organization (so absent in the 1980's) improved somewhat and the ISO grew accordingly. The ISO is now the largest and most exciting revolutionary group in the US and the credit for this fact can be laid squarely at the feet of the committed longtime leaders of our group. What these comrades accomplished by carrying the torch of revolutionary politics through the dark years of Reaganism is an impressive and likely historically significant achievement.

Yet, these adverse objective conditions in which the ISO evolved its internal culture and organizational habits have left their mark. To continue to build a revolutionary organization in conditions so hostile and alien to this project required a certain amount of rigidity. To come through a period like that without some entrenchment of leadership would have been nearly impossible. Also, it would be difficult for comrades, no matter how brilliant, to fully comprehend their own shortcomings and know how to address them. No historical comparison is perfect, but a dynamic from the early years of Bolshevism is relevant here. In Building the Party, Tony Cliff describes the years before 1905 and the period of reaction that followed it:

"During the period of reaction, 1906-1910, it was not the committeemen who deserted the party in large numbers; they mostly remained loyal....Unfortunately, however, self-sacrifice and special abilities do not provide a guarantee against conservatism of the party machine...Lenin, who knew how to recruit, train and keep the loyalty of the committeemen, had to oppose their conservatism during the revolution of 1905...To survive during the difficult years of illegality and suffering, they [the committeemen] had had to evolve a discipline, which now became an impediment," (p. 146, Building the Party).

The ISO as a young group in the 1980's was by far more flexible and dynamic than the older groups around at the time, but the ISO in turn has developed its own rigidity of practice in order to stay grounded in hostile terrain. What was once necessary for progress has become a fetter; this is a historical dynamic that not even a Marxist organization is exempt from. The objective conditions inevitably led to distortions in our practice; the difficulty here is that these distortions are often exhibited more through an internal culture or leadership style than through problems with the actual structure of the organization (the latter would be far easier to clearly identify).

Lenin writes again on February 11, 1905, "Really, I sometimes think that nine-tenths of the Bolsheviks are actually formalists... We need young forces" Later in the same quote Lenin declares, "Get rid of all the old habits of immobility, of respect for rank, and so on." And finally a few sentances later, "Allow every subcommittee to write and publish leaflets without redtape (there is no harm if they do make a mistake; we on Vperyod will "gently" correct them)." (p.147-148, Building the Party).

This was Lenin's approach as the partial revolution of 1905 got underway. We have no illusions that we are entering a pre-revolutionary situation, but we are coming out of a peroid of reaction and into a period were the left can advance. Therefore, there are significant parrellels in the dynamics at work.
Several decades later, Gramsci writes, "This order of phenomena," being the actions of a leadership to maintain control, "...is connected to one of the most important questions concerning the political party — i.e. the party's capacity to react against the force of habit, against the tendency to become mummified and anachronsitic. Parties come into existence, and constitute themselves as organisations, in order to
influence the situation at moments which are historically vital for their class; but they are not always capable of adapting themselves to new tasks and to new epochs, nor of evolving pari passu with the overall relations of force (and hence the relative position of their class) in the country in question, or in the international field. In analysing the development of parties, it is necessary to distinguish: their social group; the mass membership; their bureaucracy and General Staff. The bureaucracy is the most dangerously hidebound and conservative force; if it ends up by constituting a compact body, which stands on its own and feels itself independent of the mass of members, the party ends up by becoming anachronistic and at moments of acute crisis it is voided of its social content and left as though suspended in mid-air." (Antonio Gramsci, State and Civil Society: Observations on Certain Aspects of the Structure of Political Parties in Periods of Organic Crisis.)

Practices pointed out in earlier branch discussions such as repeated calls from different cadre members to younger members who raise innocent arguments either in the moment or in the days that follow, which we argue are common and systematic, stifle debate, lead to stale discussion, and scare newer members from clarifying points and moving forward in their understanding of Marxist politics and method. In other cases dissenting members are not browbeaten but are decidedly ignored instead. In either case, these members are alienated and the ideas they bring to the table are not given proper consideration. Within the context of recent issues inside the British SWP earlier this year when internal disputes led to leading members being pushed into resigning from the party, a British blogger wrote in a critique of the SWP (an organization from which the ISO inherited much of it internal culture), "Patterns of bad behavior... [are] a learned behavior, traceable back to the left’s social isolation but also ensuring it can’t escape that isolation." [1] The legacy of the ISO is deeply intertwined with that of the SWP and while the distortions in the SWP are far more severe than those in the ISO, they are relevant to us. The SWP has been shedding members and loosing credibility on the broad left for some years, we advocate for a changed course in the ISO to avoid these dynamics playing out in our group.

Entrenchment is a type of organizational conservatism that reflects a fear of losing control and a mistrust of those outside the leadership. The BC's opposition to working within Empower DC and stated mistrust of their own comrades reflect entrenchment. Our view is that these distortions in the Leninist practice of free and open debate are reversible, but a correction will only be achievable by some significant alteration of leadership bodies. The "committeemen" of early Bolshevism were the professional revolutionaries who, due to years of hardwork, false starts, and defeats, were hardened and conservatized in their expectations. Lenin often sided with critical views that emanated from the ranks of the party and against leaders in the party, many of whom were in turn displaced from leadership. These events were seen as normal workings of internal democracy and not as "toxic" or "poisonous disturbances," as our organizing has been described by BC.


Why I Left the ISO and What's Next
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Wednesday at 5:35pm
Why I left the ISO and What’s Next

I left the ISO after being a dedicated member for 6 years for a number of reasons (none of which are political), and I want to share some of my experience and what’s next. Leaving the ISO was one of the most difficult decisions I had to make in my life and in no way was it taken lightly. The reason why I am publicizing this note some months after the fact is that it has taken a while to process the decision. Also, I’ve recently heard from other similar experiences of people who were forced out (like Zach M, David T, Donna and the folks in DC, http://tinyurl.com/expelledfromiso and Troy from Ithaca/Chicago, http://tinyurl.com/2bcrsv3) that have only confirmed my conclusion that the ISO is not able and/or interested in taking on the process of internal transformation that would be necessary to make it an effective revolutionary organization. And I'm now ready to connect with others who have had similar experiences and talk about what's next...

===My recent experience in Boston===

Ever since I came to the Boston branch from Ithaca in 2006, there were various things that I had noticed in the branch that I wanted to improve and during my 3 years in it, I noticed quite a few things more:

1. The branch had unaccountable leadership roles. There was no system for people with leading roles to report back on their area of work and who was doing what. This meant that generally the branch as a whole had little to no holistic conception of what the branch was actually accomplishing. For example, as a treasurer or literature coordinator of the branch I was rarely, if ever asked to report on our finances or literature. Same with many other branch roles. And in general, I had no idea what was going on in the areas of branch work that I was not a part of.

2. We had a culture as a branch where the leadership and older members diminished (often unintentionally) the growth and development of new members. The branch committee (the official branch leadership) gave almost all the public talks and chaired the majority of the meetings. They also created an intimidating atmosphere where any perspective that wasn’t in line with theirs was relentlessly attacked by a barrage of more experienced members. This stifled new ideas, induced rank-and-file passivity in the members, and fear on the part of newer activists to speak up or raise questions.

As another example, last year I spent about months working on a proposal for how to transform our branch building method. I surveyed comrades on and off the branch committee, modifying things based on all the feedback I got, and incorporating a model with ideas from one of the fastest growing organizations in the country. When I finally completed the detailed 10-page proposal, the leadership first tried to convince me to abandon it. Then they tried to co-opt and neutralize it. When I finally presented it to the branch they all spoke against it, essentially convincing the branch to completely reject it in toto. It felt like they took the project into which I had poured my blood, sweat, and tears for so many months and just dumped it in the trash.

3. The branch (and national organization) also was quite stagnant, growth-wise. Comparing my first day in Boston to my last one, I calculated that the branch had gained 6 new people, but that it had lost 6 people as well. Its not that we didn’t recruit more people in the 3 years I was here. It is that the vast majority of those we recruited just didn’t stay. In retrospect, I don’t blame them…but the branch committee usually did. (The rank-and-file were rarely told when all these people actually left—let alone encouraged to seriously consider why.) I wish this was only a Boston problem, but nationally, the organization appears to have basically stayed the same size for the whole 6 years I was in it. Not a good sign.

===What happened when I questioned these kind of things?===

The leadership always responded to any criticism or questioning about any of these issues by blaming objective factors that no one can control. Arguments were always made that “There is no struggle, and we can’t expect to grow very much without struggle” or “there has been a 30-year class attack from above” or “the left is really weak” etc. These are indeed some of the objective factors limiting the growth of socialist organizations, but they’re beside the point because they are out of our control. If someone raises a criticism about things that ARE in our control(whether we had accountable leadership roles, how the organizational culture stifled new ideas, whether we have consistent reports about our work, etc.), it does no good to blame things that are NOT in our control (e.g. the left is too weak or the weather sucks)—unless the goal is to avoid the difficult task of actually confronting and working on one’s weaknesses.

Eventually, my constant raising of new perspectives, dissident ideas, and proposals that weren’t “pre-approved” led to a personalistic campaign of persecution against me by the branch committee. It got really ugly and I began to feel uncomfortable in branch meetings—even though I was still bringing as many as 6 contacts at a time to them.
Meanwhile in Cambridge, I was organizing large meetings with a handful of contacts about socialism, LGBT equality, student activism, and other topics that were consistently drawing 10-20 people. These contacts actually wanted to start an ISO branch in their own city, but I took the more moderate approach of proposing a fraction in the Boston branch devoted to developing the potential in Cambridge more fully. On the day of the branch vote, I found out that my proposal had been undermined in a secret meeting with my contacts THE DAY BEFORE the vote was to be taken. The Boston leadership lied to them about the nature of the branch and about me and my intentions, effectively sabotaging the proposal behind the back of the branch. This kind of back-room secrecy, malicious intrigue, and dishonest treachery is what you might expect from a drug cartel or mafia movie, but certainly not a revolutionary organization that takes its goal or its members seriously. At the same time, it was only the last straw in a long train of abuses and usurpations.

===Steering Committee Intervention===

The coup de grace came when I met with the northeast regional organizer, who requested a meeting as a ‘representative of the steering committee’. I was told there was a “crisis of my membership” because the “consistent pattern” of my wrongdoing had gone too far. The regional organizer somehow never ONCE contacted me before about this “pattern”. And as soon as I tried to explain my unease with the pattern of personalistic attacks against me in the branch, I was abruptly interrupted on the grounds that it didn’t exist or was a diversion.

I was accused of ‘dehumanizing’ comrades, ‘ridiculing the branch’ and ‘discouraging contacts from joining’, violating democratic centralism, and other lies and myopic distortions. He didn’t seem to ask himself: why would I work so hard to build large meetings about socialism that engaged new people with our ideas if I didn't want them to join? Why would I give rides to multiple people to branch meetings every week on my own time and dime if I wanted to discourage people? Why would I push for the branch to relate to them more systematically?
Another charge against me: I was accused of having a “secret” plan to start a branch in Cambridge. What a crime! As I said openly in the branch, not secretly, I did think that the large, consistent meetings on socialist themes I had organized did demonstrate the potential for a branch in Cambridge. But this was, undoubtedly, the “wrong” perspective.

After some wrangling, I was given an ultimatum: apologize to the branch committee, the branch, the contact coordinator, and my contacts(!) for all my wrongdoings, or else my case would be “referred” to the steering committee (i.e. I’d be expelled). So as I suspected, the meeting with the steering committee ‘representative’ was basically an ambush. It felt like I was being told to apologize to my bureaucratic persecutors…for my persecution. So I had no real choice but to resign. They basically forced me to quit so that they wouldn’t have to expel me.

===What next?===

To be fair I must say that I think there is much good work that has been done by the ISO, and it was not an easy decision to leave it. The ISO does have a national organizational infrastructure (experienced activists, multiple branches, strong publications, etc.) that have been built over years of hard work by genuine and committed people. This is a serious accomplishment, particularly in the US, which is the most sophisticated, powerful, violent, repressive, vicious, reactionary, and hypocritical empire in world history.

And I learned a great deal in the ISO, even in my last battle within it (which gave me a concrete experience with which to understand Trotsky’s struggle against the Stalinist bureaucracy). But for all the reasons above and many others, I just could not continue to devote my time and energy to it. Here’s what I’m taking from the experience:

1. If you have an issue or criticism to raise about the operations of your political organization, I would suggest raising it as PUBLICLY as possible as soon as possible, especially in meetings or venues that are open for the whole membership to see. That way those with bureaucratic tendencies can’t hide or run away from it, and the rank-and-file (particularly those who have been thinking the same thing but have remained silent) will be stimulated to engage the issue too. When you take your issue privately to one or more ‘leaders’ it is too easy for them to brush it aside—or to just disagree with you without consulting the membership. Taking a shortcut around the rank-and-file is a top-down conception of how to bring about changes within an organization, which is probably one of the biggest mistakes I made (and I made many) in the ISO. Under capitalism, corporations, national states, and even most trade unions, operate in leader-centric ways that train their members in passivity and deference to a self-perpetuating bureaucracy. Hence, this method of organizing must be fought against tooth and nail in the vanguard of the working-class movement.

2. Because of their institutional role, people entrenched in leadership positions often develop a tactical conservatism, in the interest of not ‘risking’ the health of the organization by trying new things. Lenin called these people the ‘bureaucratic committeemen’ of a political party. And had Lenin given up on his April Theses after they were voted down by the Bolshevik central committee and the Petrograd district committee, there would be no October revolution in 1917. Lenin went public especially to the rank-and-file of the party and by winning his case there, he was able to pressure the Bolshevik leadership and conservative committeemen from below. Of course, my former persecutors probably think this is an anti-leadership or maybe even anti-Leninist(!) argument.

3. The ISO is not the be-all and end-all of socialist organizations in the US, and there is no better time to build a new one. In a world racked by economic crisis, endless war, and environmental destruction, 36% of Americans (100 million people!) now view “socialism” positively (Gallup poll, Feb 2010). Even if most of them have only a vague idea of what socialism is, we still have a historic opportunity to build the socialist movement in the US. Even if we aim at only 1/4 of these people (25 million) who are seriously interested in socialism and we only recruit only 1/4th of those people (6 million!), we can transform this country from bottom to top.

Of course, this is a monumental task that will take a bold new approach to building social movements and socialist organization. I have many big ideas about this, but we also need not start totally from scratch. I am in touch with a network of people including many with the experience of being in socialist organizations. What we need is an organization that is democratic, with a growth mindset, one that fights for members of color and working-class members, welcomes new ideas, critical feedback, and that does not tolerate unaccountable and bureaucratic forms of organization.

In addition, unlike the ISO, I believe we will need a sense of humility and interest in learning from others, a rigorous system for imparting our strategies, methods, and skills to every member, and the commitment maintaining honest alignment between what we say, think, and do. In short, we need to build a revolutionary party worthy of the name.

I invite you to join in this project.

Sincerely,

Brian Kwoba
[email protected]


p.s. feel free to share this with anyone you think might be interested. Thanks!


Why I Got Kicked Out of the ISO—And Why it Doesn't Matter
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Thursday, June 24, 2010 at 11:34pm
So, this morning, I woke up, checked my email, and found the following email:

Subject line: Your membership status

Content: Hi Troy,

I wanted to let you know that I'm removing you from the internal ISO discussion [email] list, and putting you onto our announcement [email] list. As a result of the failure to implement the agreements which were reached during your meeting with Shaun and Lauren earlier in the semester we can't consider you a member at this point. If you want to follow up about this feel free to contact Shaun.

Please do keep me posted on things that you're involved in, as I look forward to continuing to collaborate going forward.

Best,

John

Now, I could inquire into how the decision to kick me out of the International Socialist Organization (ISO) was made and who made it. I could challenge this decision, too.

For example, I could point out that there were no “agreements which were reached” at the meeting referred to in the above email. In fact, I entered this meeting between myself and two Chicago ISO leaders with an idea of what activism I’d be participating in over the coming month and, though I shared my plan with them and asked them several times for their input, they offered no suggestions. The only “agreement” which I can imagine having come out of that meeting was the agreement that I should “think about whether the ISO is the right organization for me.” I agreed to this suggestion. But shouldn’t every person think about this? That’s not much of an agreement—and it’s one that I implemented! Anyway, the fact that these two ISO members had nothing to contribute to my plan for activism and only wanted to get me to “think about whether the ISO is the right organization for me” obviously indicates that they did not want any substantive “agreement" to come out of this meeting; they wanted me to voluntarily leave the ISO.

I could also point out that this meeting was called for basically nonsense reasons. At the meeting, I was charged with (a) not wanting to participate in this pointless meeting, (b) going to an LGBT rights activist meeting that an LGBT rights activist who had recently joined the ISO invited me and all other Chicago ISO members to, (c) making “reformist” arguments in a book discussion (though, neither of the two people I met with had been at this book discussion and they didn’t know what the arguments I made were—they just had “trusted sources”), and there might have been a few other charges that I can’t recall at the moment—but I think that’s basically it. I should also explain that I knew that this meeting would be pointless because it wasn’t the first such meeting I had participated in: a year or so ago I was charged with sending four separate “unacceptable” emails to the Pilsen, Chicago ISO list-serve. (The emails I had sent: one had a link to Earthlings, an animals rights video [I guess this was “bad” because animals aren’t important to some ISO members]; one had a link to a Todd Chretien Socialism 2009 talk about State and Revolution and a link to a piece by some anarchist on State and Revolution [I guess this was “bad” because we shouldn’t read diverse perspectives]; one had a link to a book about the development of global political economy in modern times [I guess this was “bad” because it was written and published by a member of some other socialist group]; and, finally one had a piece I had seen written about the Henry Louis Gates incident that I wanted commentary on [I guess this was “bad” because, again, we shouldn’t read diverse perspectives]. I have a whole document that details this episode, if anyone is interested.)

So, I could talk more about these incidents. But I won’t. Because it doesn’t matter whether I’m in the ISO or not—and this is what I really want to talk about.

I guess I’ll talk about what it means to be a “member” of the ISO. Membership requirements basically include:

a. going to meetings
b. paying membership dues
c. weekly tabling/public outreach
d. following superiors’ orders

I stopped going to meetings a few weeks ago. They were pretty useless. I was often one of a small group of members actually getting new people to come to the meetings; sometimes I was the only one bringing new people. I’m too busy to waste time at these meetings anymore but, if I wanted to start going again at some point, I wouldn’t need to be a member to do this.

Same thing with paying dues: whether you’re a “member” of a group or not, they’ll usually take your money, if you’re willing to give it to them. (Though, I’ve heard a few members take the bizarre position that they wouldn’t want “non-member” money… just an example of the sorts of wacky ideas you can come up with when you start with an irrational premise like “’membership’ is all-important.”) And the ISO does some good stuff with the money they collect; however, I don’t think I’ll be giving much more to the ISO since they waste a lot of it paying people to do things like set up nonsense membership meetings where they charge members with laughably trivial offenses.

Weekly tabling and public outreach I’m cool with. I like doing it daily. Some ISO members take weeks or months off. But it doesn’t seem to matter to ISO leaders: as long as those people are “members”—and following orders—all is well. Whatever. My point is that you don’t need to be a member of the ISO to interact with people.

That leaves following superiors’ orders. Some might ask: How can one not willing to use force and with no economic or social power expect to have their orders followed? Some might ask: Why would progressive people seek to be giving orders and forcing compliance instead of persuading people? Those are good questions—and I can’t think of how any rational and progressive person could imagine that such orders should be given or expect that such orders would be followed. Persuasion and voluntary compliance have always worked for me when it comes to organizing progressive social movements. (I wrote a national ISO leader about this topic but I never got a response; I posted the email on facebook here, y’all can take a look if you’d like further info/discussion about this topic: http://www.facebook.com/notes/troy-pasulka/democratic-centralism-in-the-case-for-socialism/377109914217)

So, I guess I’ll stop there. Not much else worth saying about the subject at this point; I’ve got more important things to talk about. For instance, everyone in the Chicago-land area should consider joining the Green Party float at the Gay Pride Parade this Sunday and check out Rich Whitney’s website (WhitneyforGov.org—he’s the Green Party 2010 candidate for Illinois Governor)! I’ll be at the parade at 9:30am with a bunch of other people talking to the crowds!

Raúl Duke
6th August 2010, 21:56
While I know this doesn't have much to do with the ISO:


and check out Rich Whitney’s website (WhitneyforGov.org—he’s the Green Party 2010 candidate for Illinois Governor)!

Why would a 'socialist' implicitly endorse a green candidate, especially in a note that has nothing to do with the Greens?

Now back on topic, what would be the motive behind these expulsions per se?

Is there factions in the ISO? Is one faction maneuvering to rid of the other?

Lenina Rosenweg
6th August 2010, 22:01
Brian Kwobe
3. The branch (and national organization) also was quite stagnant, growth-wise. Comparing my first day in Boston to my last one, I calculated that the branch had gained 6 new people, but that it had lost 6 people as well. Its not that we didn’t recruit more people in the 3 years I was here. It is that the vast majority of those we recruited just didn’t stay. In retrospect, I don’t blame them…but the branch committee usually did. (The rank-and-file were rarely told when all these people actually left—let alone encouraged to seriously consider why.) I wish this was only a Boston problem, but nationally, the organization appears to have basically stayed the same size for the whole 6 years I was in it. Not a good sign.

===What happened when I questioned these kind of things?===



I was one of the 6 people Brian mentioned. In the short time I was with them I always had the strong feeling the real decisions were being made behind the scenes. I thought highly of Brian and a few other members. The organzation was strange though.

Slobjob Zizek
7th August 2010, 01:12
I used to be a member of the ISO, so the problems that I will be talking about come from witnessing them first hand. The importance of a national organization with regards to a local branch is that national structure can provide some support and leadership to the branch. That’s part of the reason a person would pay dues and fundraise for such a national organization. From what I’ve seen, ISO fails to do this. What does ISO give back to their branches in terms of support? When a branch joins, they are given a start up package which consists of books, magazines, and newspapers. All of which are not free, but provided for the purpose of selling them. Even after being members for quite some time, you are still not given any benefit of being a member (besides a cool red card). When you go to regional or national conferences, they are run at a profit so members still have to pay for everything in order to go to them (travel, room/board, food, and actually attending the conference). At these conferences they bring in speakers (the higher ups and authors of the Haymarket books), yet they still must provide the money for the speaker’s travel expenses. So what is the real benefit of being a member?
In terms of the national structure, it is guided through a steering committee which is comprised of the paid organizers and authors of the Haymarket Books. They push the idea that going to the college campuses and selling the books, newspapers, and magazine are essential in building cadre. But “look for the person who benefits.” When you have a paid committee of book writers who benefit from the book sales, you have to wonder. They emphasize that selling their books, especially Meaning of Marxism, is necessary to building cadre. Apparently, previous books written by Marx or Lenin just weren’t good enough and that all Socialism really needed was Paul D’Amato to summarize the thoughts of Marx and Tony Cliff. I guess it has to do with the Trotskyite tradition of selling newspapers and books, but what the ISO adds to this is where the majority of their work lies. They try to build cadre from college campuses with the “intent” of those leaders ending up in the workforce (which are grad, med, or law school, managerial positions, etc.). This is highly problematic especially because the masses are not doctors, lawyers, professors, etc. They often deny the fact that ISO mainly focuses on college campuses, but if you ever go to their conferences it’s mostly white college students. Moreover, you don’t see the members actively fighting in the labor movement. So it is no longer socialism from below at this point; it is socialism from above. For it is the college educated who are the ones to deliver the working class from clutches of capitalism. So as a result, you have an organization of mostly college students selling books thinking that when they get into these petite-bourgeois positions, they can still educate the rest of their workforce into building a revolutionary party. The higher ups, especially Ashley Smith (who is not even a real Marxist – a post-structuralist), say that people do not learn through struggle, either. This is also because there is no struggle really going on. As he said in response to talking about workplace struggle, “there is no struggle in the workplace, it’s called being fucked.” So with no real struggle going on, I guess the only way for people to learn is through newspapers.
The organization does not support its branches other than gracing their presence with organizers (which branches have to pay for). Naturally, you wonder what the expenses of the organization are and how they spend their revenue. You will not be able to find this out because it is kept secret. The organization pushes the sales of books, while the authors of those books not only sit on the steering committee but also benefit financially from those sales. They will also say that this is not true. At that point the message for the branches is to sell the books, and they end up working for free (since there is no support given back) in order to build revenue for the organization. On top of that every year there is a fundraiser, where each branch gives money to the national. Branches are pressured by the higher ups to throw as much money as possible back to the top, and when a branch pledges an amount that is too low for them, they are told, “you can do better than that.” Where is the support back to the branches? A capitalist’s dream is to have free labor, so unless you believe delivering newspapers and selling books is the best path towards socialism the ISO may not be for you. Perhaps it again falls on the Trotskyite tradition, but what revolution was ever led by Trotskyite ideals.

In America and Western Europe, a number of socialist organizations and parties have taken a new role in the left. The emergence of ISO and other Trotskyite organizations had developed for a specific reason. The lines these groups take, their main recruitment focus, and what each of these groups do are all connected. With specific reference to the ISO, as it is a self proclaimed trotskyist group, their existence has come about similarly to other organizations in the west.
The membership of ISO largely consists of college students and recent graduates, with a lot of its branches being set up in small college towns. This is an undisputable fact. Of course, the ISO’s main recruitment focus of students is no secret, but this leads to many issues. The reasoning behind their recruitment of students is to have cadre enter the working class, and to go from there to build a revolutionary party. However, the issue with this is whether or not you actually consider those students, some of which are graduate and post bachelor levels, really the same as working class people. ISO is quick to equal the two by saying they both work on a salary, but of course, that is only to their benefit. To some degree, they are correct in equating the two, because neither really controls any means of production. The truth of the matter, though, is that not even a fifth of Americans actually have a bachelor’s degree. So it would be safe to say that the majority of workers do not have college degrees nor have a lot of them even attended college.
Why is it so easy to recruit college students? The ISO has a specific line on basically every socialist country that has ever existed – they are or were not socialist. In terms of China and Cuba, the ISO states that they had absolutely nothing to do with socialism. Taking this sort of line makes recruitment very easy, especially when engaging non-communists. By taking this line, the ISO strategically removes itself from an argument. This argument would be about anything having to do with Stalin, Mao, the USSR, etc. In the West, these things are generally regarded as horrible equating Stalin and Mao with Hitler. A person may push these sort of loaded questions onto a socialist, asking them if they supported the genocide in the USSR, for example. While, the USSR was no utopia the argument is still there. However, by considering the USSR state-capitalist (something Trotsky even rejected) or by saying that Cuba has nothing to do with socialism, you remove yourself from any loaded question a non-socialist would have. So it would take no real step for that non-socialist person to call themselves a socialist. This makes recruiting students that much more easy.
Why college students? The thing about college students and activists, over anybody else, is their willingness to work for free, and their acceptance/open-mindedness of ideas. An organization could really take advantage of this. Essentially what the ISO does is use this free labor to sell its books, magazine, and paper. So it would make sense that many of the higher-ups in the organization would denounce websites like Marxists.org, a website with free Marxist literature (as they have done so many times before). This would not be a problem if there were not people at the top getting pay checks, at the end of day. It does not even matter if they’re living lavishly off of the backs of students, either. This is because as long as they receive a paycheck and benefit they will still have an incentive to exploit free labor. This is even worse for those writers published under Haymarket books.

Chimurenga.
7th August 2010, 01:44
When I was first looking into getting involved with a group, I considered joining the ISO. After hearing about multiple experiences about how they act around other parties and personally engaging with a few members, I'm glad that I never joined them.

Proletarian Ultra
7th August 2010, 03:07
After nearly seven years of dedicated work as an ISO member


I left the ISO after being a dedicated member for 6 years for a number of reasons

Wait, some people stay in ISO past college? lol takes all kinds.

theblackmask
7th August 2010, 14:50
Why would a 'socialist' implicitly endorse a green candidate, especially in a note that has nothing to do with the Greens?

The ISO itself has endorsed Green candidates in the past, and was considering endorsing this campaign in Illinois. The person that wrote the note has been very active with the Green Party since leaving the ISO, and he's simply plugging that.



Now back on topic, what would be the motive behind these expulsions per se?

Is there factions in the ISO? Is one faction maneuvering to rid of the other?

I'm tagged in one of the notes and have been in contact with the writers of all three, in addition to a few other people who have recently left the ISO. It's not really a case of factions, the ISO would never allow that.

I think that in periods of low struggle, it's easy to sit around and be a cog in the organizational machine, which is why you have people that have been in the ISO for several years finally having problems. It is not easy to sit and watch the world around you fall to shit while your "comrades" are too busy trying to sell you books and hawking an irrelevant newspaper to actually devise ways of connecting with society.

This isn't the ISO cleaning house, and it isn't an organized group of people leaving together. These are isolated incidents which are indicative of the level of stagnation in the ISO. A new period of struggle calls for new methods, and the ISO has yet to realize this. Until they do, I would expect to see more of this.

theblackmask
7th August 2010, 15:15
Also, any accusations of racism or "Bleaching" are just plain ridiculous. Any attempt at calling out racism simply serves to detract from the real points of criticism.

Sam_b
7th August 2010, 15:18
Is there factions in the ISO? Is one faction maneuvering to rid of the other?

AFAIK I think they have the same organisational model as the SWP, in that there are no factions within the ISO, and factions are only allowed in the run-up to national conference and must disband after it.


Wait, some people stay in ISO past college? lol takes all kinds.

Alternatively, you could stop being a tankie stereotype and actually contribute something meaningful to the thread.

Die Neue Zeit
7th August 2010, 17:20
The ISO is too sectarian to even endorse socialist presidential candidates. Why go Green? Why not instead collaborate towards at least the re-establishment of the United States Labor Party?

Proletarian Ultra
8th August 2010, 02:31
Alternatively, you could stop being a tankie stereotype and actually contribute something meaningful to the thread.

I spent two years in ISO and have mostly favorable memories of it. I believe ISO has the only really serious program of Marxist education for its members of any US Leninist organization. While I was being sarcastic, there's a serious part to what I said - ISO is a high-turnover group. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. I left because I no longer agreed with the political line, but a high-impact working group like ISO s going to have natural in and outs. You want a party where people sit around for decades and never leave there's the CPUSA and any number of useless old duffers' clubs.

At least one of the stories reflects some blameless but unfortunately dumb naivete. I think it's a shame that a comrade worked hard trying to get a Camrbidge branch going only to be expelled for it. But really, poaching the most fertile leftist suburb out from underneath the Boston branch was bound to end in trouble.

chegitz guevara
8th August 2010, 02:36
The ISO's program is no where close to the educational program of Spark. I was in that organization six months, and I learned more in that time than many comrades I know who were in the ISO for years. I had to read a book a week. And while I couldn't keep up with that pace while also in college, I still read more in those six months than most comrades I know have ever read.

Proletarian Ultra
8th August 2010, 02:39
Also, any accusations of racism or "Bleaching" are just plain ridiculous. Any attempt at calling out racism simply serves to detract from the real points of criticism.

It would be wrong to call the ISO or any active member of it racist, but...hm...in my experience, there was a tendency to dismiss black and brown viewpoints as petty bourgeois nationalist etc. Basically if you involved yourself closely with civil rights, Africa or Latin America issues, you had to be constantly on guard against violating Cliffite orthodoxy. It was much easier to stick with antiwar, LGBT and anti-cuts and not touch race.

That was my personal experience, but I hope other people's was different.

Die Neue Zeit
8th August 2010, 03:05
The ISO's program is no where close to the educational program of Spark. I was in that organization six months, and I learned more in that time than many comrades I know who were in the ISO for years. I had to read a book a week. And while I couldn't keep up with that pace while also in college, I still read more in those six months than most comrades I know have ever read.

Spark? Which group?

Jimmie Higgins
9th August 2010, 08:46
Here are three links to what appears to be a spate of recent expulsions and
resignations from the ISO from somewhat-long-term members. Anyone know what's
up?
These seem to be isolated cases. People leave all sorts of groups Marxist and anarchist groups all the time, people join these groups all the time. While it's too bad when someone decides that they don't agree with our politics or when there is an intractable difference of opinion that forces the organization to revoke their membership (and even worse when this happens on bad terms) it doesn't always indicate some problem other than different political views.


I stopped going to meetings a few weeks ago. They were pretty useless.Well, why would he have wanted to stay in the group then? He obviously was not on the same page as the rest of the branch who did think their meetings were worth it. Branch members decide on meeting topics and what they want to emphasize politically with these meetings, and if Troy thought it was useless, then he his no longer trying to build the group and project the politics that the group is trying to promote.

This is the whole point of a revolutionary group vs. a general membership group where you have a bunch of followers or voters for the Social-Democrats or Greens, but they aren't involved in the day to day political decisions or activities. It sounds, from Troy's POV, that things maybe could have been handled differently so that Troy did not feel so alienated from the group and could have chosen to change his relationship to us by canceling his formal membership but retained friendly ties and a activist relationship.

In another case where members were expelled in a large number (3, I think), a group of the members decided that they no longer agreed with our understanding of the USSR. They wanted, in their own words, to have an orthodox trotskyist view and so they simply were no longer able to be members because this is one of the central ideas of our political tradition and the basis for a lot of other political positions.

The idea that we just pump money into our publications is also a ridiculous charge since we are not doing this to "make money" (we'd be publishing vampire romance novels if this was the case :D) but trying to raise the political profile of our politics and reach various different audiences with them (SW for a general audience, ISR magazine for a left-wing and activist audience, and books for a range of different political needs from basic to in-depth and even some academic stuff to promote these ideas to left-wing teachers and so on). When new people join, it is important to explain why we do this, why we have articles (now mostly online now by the way since we no longer have community tablings with the paper as our primary tool for trying to promote our ideas and arguments) - if they do not agree that this is a good method and we can not convince them why we think it is, then they should not join our group. It would be like if I wanted to join the CP but was against, supporting the Democrats or was not convinced that the electoral focus of the CP is good... why would I join that group? Or if I joined an anarchist affinity group but wanted to support North Korea as the perfect example of communism... or that I thought the affinity group should run anarchists for office, but others in the group disagreed... would that affinity group be tyrannical if they kicked me out? Of course not, there's a political disagreement on a fundamental level that would require people on different political paths to go different ways.

RE: READING

The claims that we are against reading primary Marxist texts (by some of the sectarian comments here) or that we don't read texts by different political traditions (as Troy argued) is just not true. Troy's problem was that we were not using official branch time to talk about or read other political traditions. Well maybe the branch members did not do a good job of explaining or maybe he just didn't like what we focus on, but official branch meetings are not informal study groups designed for self-enlightenment, they are political meetings where we are discussing our political ideas and positions. We try to have a balance between learning and talking about and studying our political ideas and tradditions, while also being an active branch that teaches new members how to be activists and put these political ideas into action. Outside reading weather in groups or on our own is not required, but expected. We do not force new members to read X stack of books and answer questions correctly on a test, the requirements are that you agree with our basic positions (hence a basic book explaining our positions) and that you actively participate in the decisions and activities of the branch.

But the idea that we don't read anything outside of Haymarket or our magazine or our political tradition is simply not true. Members are urged to do their own reading based on self-motivation and are encouraged to read what they are interested in and what will help them become better radicals. We have done this formally at times and at other times more informally based on decisions within branches and the organization as a whole.

RE: STAGNATION

This is really the only criticism with a grain of truth, but that grain is totally taken out of context. I don't want to go into too much detail about the internal discussions of this, but over the last decade basically we have experienced a situation where there have been large movements where lots of people get involved, but then when the wave of activity recedes, people have become demoralized and coalitions fall apart and activists disappear. This has happened most strikingly with the anti-war movement, but also the first wave of immigrant rights (although this is hopefully changing) and things like the Tookie Williams and Oscar Grant movements here in Cali. This has had an effect on the entire left and the ISO, as a small group riding big political waves, is not immune. While we picked up some people in these movements only to loose them later, there are many who did stick around, me included, who probably would not have remained active past the collapse of a movement without joining this kind of group.

So this argument IMO is a straw-man because I'd like you to show me a group that did grow significantly from the end of the anti-war movement to the Obama campaign while also intervening in these movements. I can name you several groups who split or collapsed in this same time period.

We take this stuff seriously and try and do what can be changed subjectively, but we are also subject to bigger changes in the political climate and will probably continue to rise and fall a little with the tides of the entire left.

RE: RACIST ISO::rolleyes:


A lot of these people being expelled are also not white, with some referring to it as the "Bleaching" of ISO (as if it wasn't already 99% white...).Can you back up that lie? While the percentage of all people is lower than what we'd like it to be :D - defiantly the low level of some ethnic groups is something we are always trying to overcome (I would hope every left-wing group in the US is also trying to do this). Since most of the US left is dominated by white people, I don't see how anyone (well anyone who wasn't just being a crude sectarian) could blame the ISO for not springing a black liberation struggle from it's forehead like Zeus when the level of black struggle and membership in the left is low to begin with. In California we have many latino members and this is due to an upsurge in radicalization of many young Latinos because of the racist backlash against immigrants (particularly Latino). So on the subjective end, we try and specifically reach out to people from various backgrounds as part of a commitment to building a multi-racial radical group, but we still have to deal with the objective problems and the objective situation of the left and US society in general.

In fact, we are probably over-represented when compared to the population as a whole) for some ethnic groups and our organization is as diverse as any in the US when it comes to gender and sexuality.

To criticize us for not growing at a time when much of the left was stagnent, and to blame us for not yet having a vastly multi-racial group at a time when US society is increasingly re-segregating and the whole left is more white than it should be... well you might as well criticize the ISO for not currently being a mass revolutionary party organizing general strikes.

That's all I really want to say on this thread (which is basically just sectarian rumpus room time anyway) - all radical groups have falling outs with members from affinity groups, to Leninist, to anarcho-syndicalist. It's sad to see it happen - particularly when it leads to bad blood, but it is not necessarily an indication of anything about the groups ideology other than each side takes their ideas seriously. The ISO is not perfect and is a work in progress and we are learning collectively as we go, we have had many debates over the last decade and changed a lot of our practices and I think we have come through a uneven and hard political decade (post 9/11) fairly well with important lessons learned both in the positive and negative that will help us increase our ability to get our ideas out there (through our publications) and also put these ideas into practice (by working with people on a grassroots level in workplace struggles, the student movement, the LGBT movement, the immigration movement, and so on) where it counts, in struggle.

DaringMehring
11th August 2010, 03:10
Spark? Which group?

The Spark is the US affiliate of the French Trotskyist Lutte Ouvriere. They are the hardest-core group I have come across. For instance, because of my background and job, I basically could not become a member of the group. That is how seriously they take keeping a working class composition and an industrial orientation. They are theoretically rigid, but I think they follow classical Marxism the most closely of any group I've come across.

The downside of Spark as far as I can tell, is that they follow a very strict model of a Party, where one can really only get into it as an active working class militant --- and so they grow only very slowly. However, that also gives them a lot of stability.

Honestly, I know a good number of groups, and the only one I can see leading a general strike into a revolution and establishing communism in a western country, is Lutte Ouvriere (like the Spark but with many more members). They showed their militancy in their work in the Martinique and Guadeloupe indefinite general strikes, where they basically led both by the end, without any opportunism.

DaringMehring
11th August 2010, 03:16
blah

This post, while containing the seed of valid critiques of the ISO (studentism, and all the other stuff as outlined in the messages from the people who were expelled/quit), goes way overboard, including using hackneyed cheap shots about it being "white" or "Trotskyites" being "too high and mighty" to analyze or engage with events in Cuba etc. You also say they don't believe in workers' struggle... ok. Honestly, I doubt you were ever in the ISO. Your post is just a shoddy hit job.

KC
11th August 2010, 04:16
The ISO is too sectarian to even endorse socialist presidential candidates. Why go Green? Why not instead collaborate towards at least the re-establishment of the United States Labor Party?

Because it's better to be explicitly (i.e. openly) opportunist instead of being implicitly opportunist.



In another case where members were expelled in a large number (3, I think), a group of the members decided that they no longer agreed with our understanding of the USSR. They wanted, in their own words, to have an orthodox trotskyist view and so they simply were no longer able to be members because this is one of the central ideas of our political tradition and the basis for a lot of other political positions.

So how has that view furthered your party in the US the past 50 years? I'm dying to understand the rationalization behind this. You call yourselves a "revolutionary party" yet you have absolutely nothing in common with actual revolutionary parties throughout history. You're a sect.

Devrim
11th August 2010, 04:32
if they do not agree that this is a good method and we can not convince them why we think it is, then they should not join our group.

Don't you think that this applies more the other way round, that you shouldn't recruit people who fundamentally disagree with you?

Devrim

KC
11th August 2010, 04:38
Don't you think that this applies more the other way round, that you shouldn't recruit people who fundamentally disagree with you?

Also, what ever happened to debate? Who is this "us" and why must they be convinced of "your" line to remain in the party? Is that not what internal democracy is for?

Jimmie Higgins
11th August 2010, 05:28
Ok, I'll take the bait, but I think it's telling that people have not been able to give one deep criticism at all - instead it's all a scatter-shot of various claims and anecdotes. We're not perfect, we've made mistakes and there are sincere ways to comradely discuss political and organizational differences, but a lot of the posts here just want to vent some sectarian bullshit.


Because it's better to be explicitly (i.e. openly) opportunist instead of being implicitly opportunist.There's a whole decade of debate and discussion about this, but long story short: we thought that the Greens represented an opportunity to drive a wedge in the general working class support of the Democratic party - if it could have done that then it would be a big step in it building a left that could resist the clutches of the Democratic party. There are many other parties who have better politics than the Greens, but the point was never "electoralism" as much as building up consciousness that is independent of and to the left of the Democratic party. There's a lot more to say, but this is not a sincere discussion about our experiences, mistakes, and successes working with Greens... and so would be pointless to go into more detail, because that is not the point of a lot of these criticisms.

The ISO could shit rainbows and we'd still be denounced by sectarians who hate our stand on the USSR or some other political point: "They're sowing an illusion of contentment among the working class with their opportunistic ass-rainbows!"


I'm dying to understand the rationalization behind this. You call yourselves a "revolutionary party" yet you have absolutely nothing in common with actual revolutionary parties throughout history. You're a sect.You mean we haven't slavishly given excuses and apologies for the brutality of the cold-war "socialist" countries? We haven't betrayed worker movements in order to satisfy the demands of USSR's cold war foreign policy like the CPs? Say what you mean, don't hide behind bullshit about "opportunism" or whatnot.

Yes, behind all the little swipes, this is the point: we do not act like or believe in the same positions as other revolutionary parties that KC, for example, supports. So some people here don't agree with us politically. But since their positions are strange and lead them to support North Korea or whatnot, it's easier for them to call us names rather than defend their support of tyrannies as "socialism".


Also, what ever happened to debate? Who is this "us" and why must they be convinced of "your" line to remain in the party? Is that not what internal democracy is for?Please, this is a pretty fundamental issue for us. It's not like an internal debate over what's the best way to accomplish X or two different analysis of some political development. If 3 members were kicked out because they disagreed with another basic principle such as not supporting the Democratic party, would you find this equally strange? Of course not, but again, you seem to disagree with us on the USSR and so because these 3 guys maybe agree with you on that question, then we must be in the wrong.

You're acting like people have no choice but to join the ISO and that is just delusional. There are many people I like and respect as activists and radicals who are not going to join this group because they have a different take on this or that. That's fine, I hope the ones who are fighting for the same things as us will remain friendly and open to working on particular campaigns and in movements or whatnot, but as much as I may like them personally, I wouldn't want them to join any group that they disagreed with some of the fundamental views.


So how has that view furthered your party in the US the past 50 years?Well the ISO has not been around for 50 years - but why should I expect you to get that correct when everything else you've said in these posts is wrong too.


Don't you think that this applies more the other way round, that you shouldn't recruit people who fundamentally disagree with you?Yes, exactly. As I said in my post, this is why we have some very basic texts that go through the main ideas behind our tradition and we urge potential new members to go through it and talk it over with us. Personally, I think we have been uneven in explaining these things to some members, but we are trying to be more systematic about it.

In the case of people deciding that they agreed with "orthodox-trotskyism" it also could have been that they heard our explanation about state-capitalism and didn't have much knowledge of other ideas and later decided that state-capitalism was the wrong view.

As I said we not only try and help people train themselves through reading radical texts, but also in becoming activists and people who can put these ideas into practice in their movements or workplaces. It's a balance and sometimes it doesn't work or causes people to be too focused on movements or other people to be too focused on theory, but the claims that we are against reading and all that simply are not the case.

KC
11th August 2010, 05:42
There's a whole decade of debate and discussion about this, but long story short: we thought that the Greens represented an opportunity to drive a wedge in the general working class support of the Democratic party - if it could have done that then it would be a big step in it building a left that could resist the clutches of the Democratic party.

I know I've heard it all from Socialist Alternative members. It's an opportunist position, which you openly admit in your very next sentence:


There are many other parties who have better politics than the Greens, but the point was never "electoralism" as much as building up consciousness that is independent of and to the left of the Democratic party.


The ISO could shit rainbows and we'd still be denounced by sectarians who hate our stand on the USSR or some other political point: "They're sowing an illusion of contentment among the working class with their opportunistic ass-rainbows!"

Is this referring to me? It's not really possible to call me a "sectarian" considering the fact that that is exactly what I'm attacking the ISO for (and I don't belong to a sect)...


You mean we haven't slavishly given excuses and apologies for the brutality of the cold-war "socialist" countries? We haven't betrayed worker movements in order to satisfy the demands of USSR's cold war foreign policy like the CPs? Say what you mean, don't hide behind bullshit about "opportunism" or whatnot.

I thought my point was quite obvious. You kicked members out of your party in the United States of America in the 21st century for their views on something that happened decades ago. My question is: how has this helped your position as an American party in the 21st century? How does it help anyone?

Second, and that is what my next post emphasized, what does this mean for the freedom of debate and discussion in the left when someone is kicked out of a party for such a view?



Yes, behind all the little swipes, this is the point: we do not act like or believe in the same positions as other revolutionary parties that KC, for example, supports.

Which parties would those be? :confused:


So some people here don't agree with us politically. But since their positions are strange and lead them to support North Korea or whatnot, it's easier for them to call us names rather than defend their support of tyrannies as "socialism".

LOL I don't "support North Korea". What an absolutely silly accusation. You're just completely making stuff up now. This slander has absolutely nothing to do with me. Nor have I called anyone names.


Please, this is a pretty fundamental issue for us. It's not like an internal debate over what's the best way to accomplish X or two different analysis of some political development. If 3 members were kicked out because they disagreed with another basic principle such as not supporting the Democratic party, would you find this equally strange? Of course not, but again, you seem to disagree with us on the USSR and so because these 3 guys agree with you on that question, then we must be in the wrong.

How do you even know what my position is on the USSR? Are you making that up too? Also, what does my position have to do with anything?

My point was that your organization (as well as all others on the left, just so you don't accuse me of favoritism or sectarianism lol) don't know how to distinguish between a "fundamental" and a "secondary" point and so the left has gotten divided up into all of these tiny bureaucratic sects where you must agree on basically every point, where freedom of discussion is stifled to achieve this end, and where bureaucracy within the organization grows to such an extent that you have people such as Troy leaving for experiencing the effects of all of this.

The organizations and their various lines become defined around these differences and if you disagree with them then you shouldn't join the party. "Think the USSR was a deformed worker's state? You're not for us; why don't you go join Socialist Alternative?" So what happens? There's no more discussion on these issues. The various organizational lines are not up for discussion, and the communication between organizations (sects) is almost nonexistent, so these topics are never open for discussion. And on goes the isolation, the bureaucratism, the transition away from democracy and open discussion and cooperation to complete isolation and irrelevancy.

Maybe instead of trying to divert the discussion and slander me you could actually address my points?

Soviet dude
11th August 2010, 05:43
This post, while containing the seed of valid critiques of the ISO (studentism, and all the other stuff as outlined in the messages from the people who were expelled/quit), goes way overboard, including using hackneyed cheap shots about it being "white" or "Trotskyites" being "too high and mighty" to analyze or engage with events in Cuba etc. You also say they don't believe in workers' struggle... ok. Honestly, I doubt you were ever in the ISO. Your post is just a shoddy hit job.

...Ashley Smith?

Zeus the Moose
11th August 2010, 05:48
In another case where members were expelled in a large number (3, I think), a group of the members decided that they no longer agreed with our understanding of the USSR. They wanted, in their own words, to have an orthodox trotskyist view and so they simply were no longer able to be members because this is one of the central ideas of our political tradition and the basis for a lot of other political positions.

I didn't hear about this in relation to the (publicised) resignations/expulsions from the ISO, but I have been curious about how prominently the theory of state capitalism still remains within the ISO. It's not something I tend to hear about that much, and did wonder if supporting the state-capitalist analysis of the Soviet Union etc. was still a major point for members to hold to. I guess this answers the question.

Homo Songun
11th August 2010, 06:38
These seem to be isolated cases. People leave all sorts of groups Marxist and anarchist groups all the time, people join these groups all the time. While it's too bad when someone decides that they don't agree with our politics or when there is an intractable difference of opinion that forces the organization to revoke their membership (and even worse when this happens on bad terms) it doesn't always indicate some problem other than different political views.

Well, why would he have wanted to stay in the group then? He obviously was not on the same page as the rest of the branch who did think their meetings were worth it. Branch members decide on meeting topics and what they want to emphasize politically with these meetings, and if Troy thought it was useless, then he his no longer trying to build the group and project the politics that the group is trying to promote.

This is the whole point of a revolutionary group vs. a general membership group where you have a bunch of followers or voters for the Social-Democrats or Greens, but they aren't involved in the day to day political decisions or activities.

Agreed



RE: STAGNATION

This is really the only criticism with a grain of truth, but that grain is totally taken out of context. I don't want to go into too much detail about the internal discussions of this, but over the last decade basically we have experienced a situation where there have been large movements where lots of people get involved, but then when the wave of activity recedes, people have become demoralized and coalitions fall apart and activists disappear. This has happened most strikingly with the anti-war movement, but also the first wave of immigrant rights (although this is hopefully changing) and things like the Tookie Williams and Oscar Grant movements here in Cali. This has had an effect on the entire left and the ISO, as a small group riding big political waves, is not immune. While we picked up some people in these movements only to loose them later, there are many who did stick around, me included, who probably would not have remained active past the collapse of a movement without joining this kind of group.

So this argument IMO is a straw-man because I'd like you to show me a group that did grow significantly from the end of the anti-war movement to the Obama campaign while also intervening in these movements. I can name you several groups who split or collapsed in this same time period.
I hate to break it to you but many groups are not only doing fine but even growing right now. This includes the ISO's core area of competency, the student movement. Based on your location, I'd say you are familiar with Socialist Organizer, yes? And this is to say nothing of groups that tend to focus on the labor movement, given the current economic situation.

Jimmie Higgins
11th August 2010, 06:57
Ok, KC, I'm just having a little trouble understanding where you are coming from so I assumed that it was some kind of back-door attack on some political position because usually that where I hear some of these kinds of accusations.

But in my defense, all I read were a bunch of criticisms without any clear point to them other than: "the ISO sucks". That is not comradely debate or consructive so I got upset when you made posts that were just quips about "opportunism" without explanation or anything.


I know I've heard it all from Socialist Alternative members. It's an opportunist position, which you openly admit in your very next sentenceWell maybe I don't understand what you mean by opportunism, because I thought it meant taking a popular position without principle. If the ISO was dedicated to building a left-wing socialist electoral party, then, yes, supporting the Greens would be opportunism and we should probably support some existing democratic-socialist party or form one of our own. Again, electoralism wasn't the point of being involved with the Greens, we saw them as a step towards one of our long-term goals which is helping to build a general left-wing that is independent of the Democratic party.


Is this referring to me? It's not really possible to call me a "sectarian" considering the fact that that is exactly what I'm attacking the ISO for (and I don't belong to a sect)...You can be "sectarian" without being in a group by jettisoning sincere and constructive comradely debate for shallow claims that are not backed up and are just to sling some mud.


I thought my point was quite obvious. You kicked members out of your party in the United States of America in the 21st century for their views on something that happened decades ago. My question is: how has this helped your position as an American party in the 21st century? How does it help anyone?I'm sorry, but the USSR has ramifications beyond just long-ago history. This view has allowed our group to grow and not fall into supporting the leaders of so-called socialist countries just because they nationalize things and call themselves socialist. This view has helped us focus on socialism from below; it is very central to why we are the group we are and our definition of socialism.


Second, and that is what my next post emphasized, what does this mean for the freedom of debate and discussion in the left when someone is kicked out of a party for such a view?What does it mean to be a revolutionary party if some people in your group don't believe that class struggle exists? Again, there are certain core ideas which can be discussed and debated (like does "Permanent Revolution" still apply today? There have also been debates about the idea of state-capitalism and if it matters that a member has a different variant of that same view but still draws the same conclusions). But yeah, if One branch is saying "Yeah, Cuba is the bees-knees and if they had elections, then it'd be perfect socialism" but the rest of the group is saying, "no Cuba is not an existing example of socialism because worker's do not directly and cooperatively control production" - then why are they in the same group? Why shouldn't the ISO let Stalinists join then? Why not liberals? Why not fascists? Why not Monarchists? Even RevLeft restricts some people who generally support revolution but have wonky ideas - and I think that's too extreme for this kind of discussion board.

A revolutionary party is about ideas but also action and so because of that it is not like an electoral party that is (ideally) all for any kind of debate as long as people vote for their candidates.


LOL I don't "support North Korea". What an absolutely silly accusation. You're just completely making stuff up now. This slander has absolutely nothing to do with me. Nor have I called anyone names. ...
How do you even know what my position is on the USSR? Are you making that up too? Also, what does my position have to do with anything?Ok, fair enough I guess I am wrong, but it was the only explanation that made sense to me as to why you were being such an unconstructively hostile ass:). Comrade. It's a knee-jerk reaction because I am always being told by random marxist-leninists that I hate revolution and the working class because I don't think Cuba, North Korea, or the USSR were what Marx was talking about or in the best interests of the working class.


The organizations and their various lines become defined around these differences and if you disagree with them then you shouldn't join the party. "Think the USSR was a deformed worker's state? You're not for us; why don't you go join Socialist Alternative?" So what happens? There's no more discussion on these issues. The various organizational lines are not up for discussion, and the communication between organizations (sects) is almost nonexistent, so these topics are never open for discussion. And on goes the isolation, the bureaucratism, the transition away from democracy and open discussion and cooperation to complete isolation and irrelevancy.

Maybe instead of trying to divert the discussion and slander me you could actually address my points?Ok, please forgive me for being defensive after one whole page of people's attacks. I thought your claims were coming from a different place.

So then your criticism isn't of the ISO as it sounded, but of the idea of a specifically revolutionary group. So you favor a general membership group? So that's a totally different discussion that I won't get too into that because it's much larger question than just the ISO.

But to clarify, it's not like the ISO makes demands on people who are not in agreement - we work in coalitions all the time where we encourage openness and debate because these organizations are all about having a variety of ideas and politics coming together around an issue or demand or action. You mention Socialist Action and I have worked with those guys and I can appreciate our differences as well as our similarities and I would gladly work with them again on a common movement, but we also have some disagreements - not as extreme as social-democrat vs. revolutionary, but enough differences that it causes our respective groups to understand current developments slightly differently.

It would be bad for general coalitions and movements to set the bar so high politically that no new people could participate. A revolutionary group however, does need a higher bar IMO otherwise we could not be as effective - it would be like RevLeft, not a political organization, but a place of endless and repeated debates. In other words, we'd be too busy talking about Stalin or supporting capitalist countries in war or if racism is really a problem if the left-movement had not had splits at certain points. At some point we need to take action and so having a general framework of basic agreements helps us to be on the same page while organizing.

I agree that there is a lot of needless separation, but sometimes separation is good... I do not want to fight for the same things that Stalinists advocate, frankly, - while on the other hand, I think I do want the same thing that many other radicals want, but I just disagree on the best ways to achieve it.

Jimmie Higgins
11th August 2010, 07:00
Agreed

I hate to break it to you but many groups are not only doing fine but even growing right now. This includes the ISO's core area of competency, the student movement. Based on your location, I'd say you are familiar with Socialist Organizer, yes? And this is to say nothing of groups that tend to focus on the labor movement, given the current economic situation.Ok, well things are much different for us in the past two years or so - I was speaking of a time when it was really hard for us which would be 2004-2008. Were there groups that were growing by leaps in this period? If so who were they and how'd they do it?:)


I didn't hear about this in relation to the (publicised) resignations/expulsions from the ISO, but I have been curious about how prominently the theory of state capitalism still remains within the ISO. It's not something I tend to hear about that much, and did wonder if supporting the state-capitalist analysis of the Soviet Union etc. was still a major point for members to hold to. I guess this answers the question. There's been some debate on that because since the collapse of the USSR, I think there has been a gradual coming together of various Marxist critiques of those style of countries. So while some other critiques might not be exactly the same as "state-capitalism" if the end analysis is the same (basically that it would take more than just a political change at the top to create socialism in Cuba or N. Korea) then the details are not as important. But currently we still hold that as the best critique.


...Ashley Smith?Are you implying that this poster is that person? It's not, but if it was you should know not to use comrade's real names on a site like this where groups like red-watch might be looking for info.

Nothing Human Is Alien
11th August 2010, 10:05
What are we to make of this? ISO is, whether we like it nor, the largest group in America.

The largest group of what?

Nothing Human Is Alien
11th August 2010, 10:16
I'd like you to show me a group that did grow significantly from the end of the anti-war movement to the Obama campaign while also intervening in these movements. I can name you several groups who split or collapsed in this same time period.

Doesn't that tell you something?

Jimmie Higgins
12th August 2010, 01:41
Doesn't that tell you something?That you are being a troll right now?

If you are implying that the Obama campaign was a "movement" and that that's what I meant by intervening in movements, then you are wrong and just spreading lies.

The ISO did not support Obama and anyone can read our online articles from that time period and see exactly what we thought of Obama and why we argue that the Democrats are the graveyard of social movements.

Devrim
12th August 2010, 06:48
The ISO did not support Obama and anyone can read our online articles from that time period and see exactly what we thought of Obama and why we argue that the Democrats are the graveyard of social movements.

Not that I follow US politics that closely, but who did you call for a vote for then?

Devrim

Leo
12th August 2010, 12:30
I think they called a vote for the Greens.

Nothing Human Is Alien
12th August 2010, 12:37
That you are being a troll right now?It's not very productive to label attempts to point out the problems of your organization trolling is it?


If you are implying that the Obama campaign was a "movement" and that that's what I meant by intervening in movements, then you are wrong and just spreading lies.I'm asking what you have learned from the fact that, in your words: "several groups ... split or collapsed in this same time period."


The ISO did not support Obama and anyone can read our online articles from that time period...Yes, let's do that:

“If a Democrat wins the White House and the Democrats hold the Congress, will this mark a rebirth of liberalism? The answer is both yes and no. In the sense that both Clinton and Obama stand to the ‘left’ of McCain on most issues, and a Democratic victory would break years of right-wing Republican dominance, liberalism would receive a boost. What is more, millions of Americans would vote for Democratic candidates hoping that they would act on the issues that concern the majority: ending the war in Iraq, fixing the housing mess, providing universal health care. If the mainstream political system began to raise these ‘liberal’ issues, people’s expectations that something could be done about them would be raised. And just breaking the stifling conservative orthodoxy of the last generation would make liberalism a more viable ideological alternative for millions who want to see real social change.” - International Socialist Review (March-April 2008)

"MILLIONS OF people jammed into Washington, D.C., to see history being made yesterday, and to celebrate the official beginning of a new era in American politics.

...

"These images couldn't be more of a contrast to eight years ago, when George W. Bush scurried into the White House, thanks to a 5-4 decision of the U.S. Supreme Court not to count every vote in the 2000 election. Bush's inauguration was a meager gathering of political insiders, conservative cranks and corporate lobbyists, with angry protesters lining the inaugural parade route.

...

"The end of the Bush regime was bound to be a cause for celebration ...There was no more satisfying sight than Bush climbing the stairs to his helicopter and flying away.

"But the inauguration of Barack Obama meant much more than the end of Bush....

"It couldn't be otherwise with the countless Black faces throughout the vast crowd in Washington--and with the sense of pride, extending beyond African Americans alone, that some of the cruel sins of America's past were finally being overcome.

"The Obama campaign has had a profound impact. After a generation of the conservative agenda dominating in Washington, when the White House and Congress seemed wholly insulated from any influence by ordinary people, Obama's victory convinced large numbers of people of some basic sentiments at the heart of the great struggles of the past--that something different is possible, and that what we do matters.

"But there's another lesson to be drawn from the experience of the civil rights movement, the fight for women's suffrage and the struggle for unions: Their strength rested on the willingness to remain independent and mobilize for justice, no matter what president was sitting in the White House.

"Obama himself gave voice to these lessons about how social change is made in an answer to a question about Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. at a Democratic candidates' debate during the early primaries. His words were extraordinary..." - "Looking Forward To Change," SocialistWorker.net

Of course some "socialist" rhetoric appears in that article too. It adds up to a call to "pressure" Obama and co.

That's specifically what was called for in 2009 (see: New openings to push Obama (http://socialistworker.org/2009/04/28/new-openings-to-push)). This talk of "holding Obama accountable" is typical of the liberal left.

By now you can see some of the same disappointment setting in that you can see on any number of liberal websites and blogs.

Jimmie Higgins
13th August 2010, 03:09
It's not very productive to label attempts to point out the problems of your organization trolling is it?Other people posted criticisms without being sectarian or trollish about it. I'd hardly call your posts "productive criticism":


The largest group of what?


Doesn't that tell you something?

Wow, such depth you have, troll. :D



“If a Democrat wins the White House and the Democrats hold the Congress, will this mark a rebirth of liberalism? The answer is both yes and no. In the sense that both Clinton and Obama stand to the ‘left’ of McCain on most issues, and a Democratic victory would break years of right-wing Republican dominance, liberalism would receive a boost. What is more, millions of Americans would vote for Democratic candidates hoping that they would act on the issues that concern the majority: ending the war in Iraq, fixing the housing mess, providing universal health care. If the mainstream political system began to raise these ‘liberal’ issues, people’s expectations that something could be done about them would be raised. And just breaking the stifling conservative orthodoxy of the last generation would make liberalism a more viable ideological alternative for millions who want to see real social change.” - International Socialist Review (March-April 2008)You must have failed reading comprehension. How is this supporting Obama or liberalism? This passage is merely a look at how the ruling class's need to back a "friendlier" set of politics after Bush and the recession (to restore credibility) also has the duel impact of raising the expectations of real change.

In case you didn't know, "liberalism" is a ruling class ideology and so a "rebirth of liberalism" is not something we uncritically support - it's guns and butter and another strategy for the ruling class. But, what we were sayingis that it represents a shift both at the top (the ruling class funding Obama rather than the republican) with ramifications below (higher expectations of workers that we'd have reforms of labor laws [card-check] and health care).

Besides, anyone who isn't cherry-picking quotes to prove an incorrect point will see this conclusion from the very same same ISR article:


Since the primary season opened, every candidate in both parties, it seems, has embraced the idea of “change.” Exactly what any of them mean by that is up for interpretation. Even they recognize that the public is looking for something different. In his speeches and advertising, Obama invokes images of past movements for social justice, like the movements for civil rights, abolition, and women’s suffrage, and asks supporters to join his “movement.” But we should always remember that Obama is not building a real grassroots movement for social change. He is building an electoral campaign within the Democratic Party, one of the two big-business parties in the United StatesSo how the hell is that supporting Obama? Are you incapable of reading a short article in full?


"MILLIONS OF people jammed into Washington, D.C., to see history being made yesterday, and to celebrate the official beginning of a new era in American politics.Yes, Regan represented a new era in American politics and we don't support him either. You are really grasping at straws to make reality match your incorrect assumptions about our politics.


"These images couldn't be more of a contrast to eight years ago, when George W. Bush scurried into the White House, thanks to a 5-4 decision of the U.S. Supreme Court not to count every vote in the 2000 election. Bush's inauguration was a meager gathering of political insiders, conservative cranks and corporate lobbyists, with angry protesters lining the inaugural parade route.Again, you are using descriptions and somehow thinking they are political points. People were very happy to see Obama elected and did not protest his inauguration like they did Bush.


"The end of the Bush regime was bound to be a cause for celebration ...There was no more satisfying sight than Bush climbing the stairs to his helicopter and flying away.

"But the inauguration of Barack Obama meant much more than the end of Bush....

"It couldn't be otherwise with the countless Black faces throughout the vast crowd in Washington--and with the sense of pride, extending beyond African Americans alone, that some of the cruel sins of America's past were finally being overcome.You seem to mistake a description of popular sentiments being described in these passages for a political argument being made by the article.

Do you think that the sentiments which caused people to vote for Kerry were the same as the sentiments that caused people to vote for Obama... was Obama "anybody but bush" or were people actually believing that they were voting based on hope rather than "not Bush"?

This is all that our position was arguing - that people bought into the "hope" that Obama was selling and this has an impact on popular consiousness. This is not an endorsement of Obama in anyway.


"But there's another lesson to be drawn from the experience of the civil rights movement, the fight for women's suffrage and the struggle for unions: Their strength rested on the willingness to remain independent and mobilize for justice, no matter what president was sitting in the White House.

"Obama himself gave voice to these lessons about how social change is made in an answer to a question about Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. at a Democratic candidates' debate during the early primaries. His words were extraordinary..." - "Looking Forward To Change," SocialistWorker.net

Of course some "socialist" rhetoric appears in that article too. It adds up to a call to "pressure" Obama and co.What is this "socialist rhetoric" that you left out... hmmm, the last lines and whole conclusion of the article:


Now that he occupies the top political office of the most powerful capitalist society on earth, Obama and his administration will have their own ideas about what change should look like, and what it shouldn't--and those ideas won't be the same as the millions of people who worked to get him elected.


But the most fundamental changes in society do happen from the bottom up. And it's up to the people who want to see that change to use all the opportunities presented to us in this new era of Barack Obama--to argue, to mobilize and to agitate.So it's not about merely "pressuring Obama" the bold section above can be summed up as: the people who sincerely think that Obama wants change are buying into an illusion. Therefore, the change that people REALLY want is not just going to be handed down but will take people actually fighting for it themselves.


At best you are missing the forest for the trees and not understanding the main points of the articles you quoted. At worst you are being a flat-out liar and picking quotes selectively to make an argument that is false.

You may not agree with out analysis of Obama, but to say that we support Obama in any way is absolutely false and a lie. Our points on "pressuring Obama" and that people saw a chance for change in supporting Obama is not a defense of Obama, but how we are looking at dealing with activists who have these illusions. For the first year of his presidency, you simply could not say: "you are stupid for believing in Obama, you are buying into an illusion" and expect to be able to continue a working relationship with pro-Obama, but otherwise decent non-radical activists. So the way we attempted to talk about Obama to our allies was in a supportive and critical way. In other words we tried to approach people with the attitude that it was great that so many people obviously want to see some kind of change and it's great that so many people wanted to see a black president in such a racist country... but Obama is not going to deliver on the kind of change you expect, so let's talk about what it takes to actually win change."

Hater of Dilettantes
28th August 2010, 18:43
Troy's rant come across as that of an egotistical middle class dilettante. In his face book rant, he even belittles the importance of organizations to struggle against capitalist oppression. He says the only organization we need is like "calling people to go to a movie." Troy's loss is no great loss to the movement to build a better world.

Hater of Dilettantes
28th August 2010, 18:53
First off the conferences are NOT run with a profit. Does anyone really think that the hotels where the national conferences are held, donate the space for free? At best the conferences break even money wise. Some of the speakers you denigrate include radical journalists John Pilger, Amy Goodman and Dahr Jamail. In the past other speakers have included the President of the Charleston longshore local that was under attack by the state of South Carolina, and rank and file activists, who ARE not ISO members from various unions including the United Auto Workers, and rank and file members from union organizing campaigns, including North Carolina.The rolling in money paid staff you refer to are paid a bare subsistence income. Most of the money collected goes to the national organization because that's where most of the expense occurs. Historically in this country, college students are the first to be influenced by radical politics. You don't think this was the case in the 1960's?

thriller
23rd September 2010, 16:53
I like how the Local branch here for the Socialism 2010 conference got rooms at the HILTON! And even tried to get discount rates at the Hilton for others. LOLZ! It was Chicago, the land of cheap shoddy motels through-out the south side. But we're socialists, we need a Hilton! I know this is off topic, but Hater brought up the conference. And we can't expect any ISO member to denounce the ISO, because that would be... ohh what's the word... ohh 'petty bourgeoisie' thought. Because dissent and resistance is inherit with the ruling class.

Hater of Dilettantes
11th October 2010, 19:14
How are you going to hold a conference in a motel, "south side cheap" or otherwise? Because of the recession and loss of business, the hotel where the conference was held, a unionized hotel I should mention, was offering a significant discount.