The Morality of Armed Service

[Exasperated_Youth]

Do you think it's wrong to join the army/navy/air force of your country?
If so, does it contradict your personal morals, is it because you disagree with the conflicts they are currently involved in, do you dislike the whole idea of the armed forces or does it clash with your ideology?
This may be in the wrong section, but I put it here because I'm trying to get a leftist perspective.

[Steve_j]

You will get quite a varied response from the board, some think the military are class enemies, others think they are workers and there are a few former "service" men and women on the boards and even a couple (if memory serves me correct) that are still serving.

For me its a very tough one, would i join? no. Would i discourage people from joining? yes. However for many the millitary is an easy option to esacpe poverty or other issues associated with ones surroundings and upbrining, i myself applied in my youth for the educational and ecconmic program it offered me, thankfully i was rejected on psychological grounds (I dont know if its a good or bad thing when even the army wont take you :) )

I'd say for me the situation is that the millitary is a class enemy as an institution and should be resisted on ideological grounds (resist their recruitment drives, wars propaganda and in contries where they have it, conscription), however for me that does not automatically make serving soldiers a class enemy in the same way i see the capitalist class. I hold little hope of many of them becomming allies and do not hold any of their lives in more value than i would the insurgents that are resisting them, however I would strongly support potenitial or active dissent within the instituaion.

[Raúl Duke]

Do you think it's wrong to join the army/navy/air force of your country?Joining, that is enlisting/volunteering, into the military that which is engage in an overtly imperialist action would not exactly be a very leftist thing to do. Conscription/draft is more particular, but if the military is engaged in an overtly imperialist activity and you choose to refuse to serve than kudos to you, you're an inspiration but I wouldn't look down upon you if you happen to go along .

However, this (being in the military) doesn't per se make you a reactionary, cmoney was in the US military and he posts here and is a leftist.

While at this time I would, perhaps incorrectly, say that many in the US military are reactionary; soldiers aren't always reactionary and have at times played prominent roles such as the US GI resistance during the Vietnam war (resistance to the point where the military became an ineffective war machine) and the many occasions where soldiers defected for the revolution.

Compared to soldiers, the police are another matter: I never heard of them every joining en masse to the side of the revolution.

Ultimately, this may have to do with the nature of employment. Police are professional police officers. Professional soldiers,officers, and mercs may tend to be more reactionary than soldiers who are drafted/conscripted and those who enlisted due to material gain (GI Bill money, etc).

[The Douche]

I would never encourage anyone to join the military, and do whatever I can to disuade people who are interested. Its not just about politics, the military isn't a very good environment.

[RadioRaheem84]

Its not just about politics, the military isn't a very good environment.

Even if one were to join to gain combat experience? Is the atmosphere just too rabidly right wing to maintain any sort of leftist ideals? How did you make it without going AWOL?

[The Douche]

Even if one were to join to gain combat experience? Is the atmosphere just too rabidly right wing to maintain any sort of leftist ideals? How did you make it without going AWOL?

Its not really the politics that are annoying, you know, if you've developed left wing politics then you are probably much more eloquent and quick-witted about politics than people who are only political so much as whining about gay marriage and the repeal of "don't ask don't tell". You're gonna build a relationship with the guys in your unit anyways, and nobody is gonna forsake you for your politics. (unless you're an asshole or a piece of shit soldier)

The unbearable thing is the morons who make it into positions of authority just because they've been in long enough. Good leaders aren't afraid to listen to their subordinates and take advice/criticism but not everybody makes a good leader, and promotions in the military often revolve around time in service and who you're friends with.

Also, the military breeds a culture of immaturity. Somebody tells you where to be, when to be there, what to wear, when you'll get off, when lunch is, then you can go get free food at the chow hall, you don't have to pay rent if you live on post, you don't even have to do your own laundry, you can just throw it in a bag and hand it off. So you end up with 23 year old children getting out and released into a world they're often not prepared for.

As for me, I'm in the national guard, so aside from my deployment to Iraq I only have to do one weekend a month and two weeks a year. So it's not to bad as far as the environment. By this point in my life (I've been in over 4 1/2 years) I kind of like it cause I get to see friends of mine that I only see once a month.

[FreeFocus]

There's a difference between a Bolivian soldier and an American soldier, and a difference between a soldier in Madagascar and a British soldier. The Bolivian and Madagascan militaries aren't involved (and really haven't been at all, historically) in imperialism, ethnic cleansing, or human rights abuses (except under dictatorships, or white rule, usually backed by the US actually). You don't hear about Bolivian troops bombing wedding parties, committing Hadithas, or forcing families out of their homes. Some people might argue that it's because Bolivia and Madagascar aren't states that, in the current international system, have the power to occupy and bully other states. Well, exactly: the reality is that they are subjugated states and don't pose nearly as big of a threat as the imperialist powers. They are not an equal enemy. While Bolivian troops were seizing foreign-owned gas fields in 2006, American troops were committing wanton murder in Afghanistan and especially Iraq.

Nonetheless, I dislike the idea of armed forces anyway because they enforce the will of the state physically. They are tools of the class rule of the bourgeoisie. I don't oppose citizens' or workers' militias.

[Animal Farm Pig]

I enlisted in the US Army. After six months, I deserted.

The decision to enlist made sense to me at the time. It still would, if I would ignore the working environment. When I decided to enlist, I was working a crap job with crap pay, I was married to a woman not legally able to work in the USA and with medical issues, I had no health care, no savings, and a crazy looking résumé. Enlisting would mean better pay, good health care, and four years of job experience (in my case, doing computer networking). After getting out, I would get free health care for life, I'd have a few professional certifications, and I could spend five years getting paid for dicking around in college. It made sense to me.

I was unprepared for how fantastically bad working and living conditions in the Army are. I don't even know where to start. I'll post some of my horrendous stories later. In any case, my personal situation developed in such a way that I was able to find something better, and more in line with my values, to do with my time. Luckily, I was still in "Initial Entry" status, which meant that I could desert, show up a month later at Ft. Sill and spend a week (actually two, in my case) doing some paperwork and getting some briefings, and get out. So, I did.

The pay and health care were good. The working and living conditions sucked, and the training wasn't very good. I'm glad I got out.

I'll try to post some stupid Army stories tonight after work.