Is revleft Dying??

[leftist manson]

Please don't throw this in trash.... I know this seems absurd saying this but Revleft has seriously become a shadow of it's former self.... I joined in 03 and vividly remember the raging debates and the new synthesis being developed and the number of members.... It was a more bustling place...
It seems to have the joy taken out of it for some reason.... Sorry if i disappointed anybody by saying this but it was like a cyber-home for me at one time....

[Adi Shankara]

Please don't throw this in trash.... I know this seems absurd saying this but Revleft has seriously become a shadow of it's former self.... I joined in 03 and vividly remember the raging debates and the new synthesis being developed and the number of members.... It was a more bustling place...
It seems to have the joy taken out of it for some reason.... Sorry if i disappointed anybody by saying this but it was like a cyber-home for me at one time....

I guess I came at the wrong time...I all I see is loudmouthed asshole admins who use their opinions to set policy...

of course, they'll just retort to me with some insult, as expected. after-all, the average admin (not ALL admins, some on here I like) has a maturity level of that akin to a 6th grader who just discovered internet porn.

[synthesis]

That's just how life works. Things seem new and fresh and then you come back ten years later and you wonder, "what the fuck happened here?" when the real change only occurred in yourself.

Did you post under a different name then?

[leftist manson]

That's just how life works. Things seem new and fresh and then you come back ten years later and you wonder, "what the fuck happened here?" when the real change only occurred in yourself.

Did you post under a different name then?

nah , i always post under leftist manson...
My posts are not a clear representative of my love for revleft.... i've learned so much from this place and love it....
oh and i never stopped visiting it , just stopped posting for a long long while.....
The sectarianism also got to me for some reason.... When you see people spouting Anti-communist propaganda much more venomous than Glenn Beck due to them belonging in a different 'camp', you kinda phase out.....

[leftist manson]

I guess I came at the wrong time...I all I see is loudmouthed asshole admins who use their opinions to set policy...

of course, they'll just retort to me with some insult, as expected. after-all, the average admin (not ALL admins, some on here I like) has a maturity level of that akin to a 6th grader who just discovered internet porn.

Really?? Damn!!!
Personally, i've never had to deal with any of it.... Maybe i missed out on some of that inter-personal latent comradely love :lol:

[Adi Shankara]

Really?? Damn!!!
Personally, i've never had to deal with any of it.... Maybe i missed out on some of that inter-personal latent comradely love :lol:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/why-does-calling-t139652/index.html

see for yourself...I can't find the original posts, because the Admins apparently removed it from the trash can in a last pathetic attempt to save face...but we all remember the racist diatribe from TAT that started it in the first place, and it left alot of people pissed off.

personally, I don't blame people if they want to quit this site now. if it's okay for admins to be racist (as long as they quickly say their joking afterwards) now, then this is a sorry excuse for a leftist site.

Also I don't blame TAT for deleting the hiding the original postings from the trash. I'd be embarrassed as fuck if I called myself a leftist and those bigoted rants against the Welsh were lying there.

[Adi Shankara]

here's moar for you to feast your eyes on:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/chit-chat-thread-t139374/index.html?t=139374 --people getting pissed at the admin for being racist.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/welsh-t138174/index.html --the original posting where the admin calls the welsh "sheepfuckers" and says they "speak gibberish".

of course, I'm not supposed to talk about this embarassing blemish...for some reason:rolleyes:

[leftist manson]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/why-does-calling-t139652/index.html

see for yourself...I can't find the original posts, because the Admins apparently deleted it from the trash can in a last pathetic attempt to save face...but we all remember the racist diatribe from TAT that started it in the first place, and it left alot of people pissed off.

personally, I don't blame people if they want to quit this site now. if it's okay for admins to be racist (as long as they quickly say their joking afterwards) now, then this is a sorry excuse for a leftist site.

Also I don't blame TAT for deleting the original postings from the trash. I'd be embarrassed as fuck if I called myself a leftist and those bigoted rants against the Welsh were lying there.

Looking at the site right now, thanks a lot....
Talking about the Welsh, i read a thread like a month back where a poster was making fun of the pro-IRA posters for upholding the 'myth' of northern Ireland being Irish... That seemed quite extra-ordinary that he was so blatantly pro-Brit.... He basically accused the others of conjuring up this 'mythology' of the 32 counties.... That seemed kinda way out there to me lol....

[Adi Shankara]

Looking at the site right now, thanks a lot....
Talking about the Welsh, i read a thread like a month back where a poster was making fun of the pro-IRA posters for upholding the 'myth' of northern Ireland being Irish... That seemed quite extra-ordinary that he was so blatantly pro-Brit.... He basically accused the others of conjuring up this 'mythology' of the 32 counties.... That seemed kinda way out there to me lol....

also, the new trend is to accuse anyone who says something bad about what a VIP admin/user of "bullying" so they get permaban. it's already been used on two users recently.

[The Feral Underclass]

Please don't throw this in trash.... I know this seems absurd saying this but Revleft has seriously become a shadow of it's former self.... I joined in 03 and vividly remember the raging debates and the new synthesis being developed and the number of members.... It was a more bustling place...
It seems to have the joy taken out of it for some reason.... Sorry if i disappointed anybody by saying this but it was like a cyber-home for me at one time....

People always say this, but I can provide you with statistics that would show that the number of threads and posts are exactly the same if not increased since 2003.

The debates are exactly the same, people are engaging in exactly the same way. Often people suddenly feel that RevLeft is inactive and boring, but that's not because RevLeft has changed, that's because you've become inactive and bored of RevLeft.

[Il Medico]

Thomas give it a rest will ya?

anyways, to the OP, Revleft is not dying. But, that said, it has gotten noticeably worse.

[The Feral Underclass]

That's just how life works. Things seem new and fresh and then you come back ten years later and you wonder, "what the fuck happened here?" when the real change only occurred in yourself.

Did you post under a different name then?

Yeah, this.

What was your original name before synthesis?

[Il Medico]

Yeah, this.

What was your original name before synthesis?
Kun Fuana. or some similar spelling.

[The Feral Underclass]

also, the new trend is to accuse anyone who says something bad about what a VIP admin/user of "bullying" so they get permaban. it's already been used on two users recently.

That's just utter nonsense. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You have no idea about any of those situations. You've been a member here for 2 months. What the fuck would you know about any of this? Stop pretending as if you have some stake or understanding of the workings of board administration. You have no clue what the moderation teams motivations for doing anything are. You aren't aware of the history of those situations or what has occurred, not to mention the fact no one has been permanently banned.

Stop trying to talk with authority about this boards administration because you just look like an idiot. You're talking shit. Stop it.

[Adi Shankara]

That's just utter nonsense. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You have no idea about any of those situations. You've been a member here for 2 months. What the fuck would you know about any of this? Stop pretending as if you have some stake or understanding of the workings of board administration. You have no clue what the moderation teams motivations for doing anything are. You aren't aware of the history of those situations or what has occurred, not to mention the fact no one has been permanently banned.

I've been here enough to see you're a bigot who gets judged to a different standard, just because you been here for a while.

and seeing someone say "the Welsh fuck sheep" isn't really needing a history as a prerequisite.


not to mention the fact no one has been permanently banned.

suspended for a few years...so much better! :D


Stop trying to talk with authority about this boards administration because you just look like an idiot. You're talking shit. Stop it.

taking it a little seriously there, aren't you?

[The Feral Underclass]

I've been here enough to see you're a bigot who gets judged to a different standard, just because you been here for a while.

Yes, and when I get into power I'm going to carpet bomb Llandudno and turn Betwsycoed into an internment camps for the glorious "re-education" of the heathens.


and seeing someone say "the Welsh fuck sheep" isn't really needing a history as a prerequisite.

As a matter of fact it does. Since you don't know me or anything about me, stop trying to pretend as if you have some deep-seeded understanding of me and what I believe.


suspended for a few years...so much better! :D

Who has been suspended for a few years? Who is this person? Once again you demonstrate that you know fuck all about what is happening on this board.


taking it a little seriously there, aren't you?

I take seriously the fact that you are trying to represent the board administrations actions to other members of the board, when you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You have no knowledge or understanding about any of the situations you're talking about. You're not a mod or an admin; you've been here for 2 months, yet you seem to think that you have the foresight and experience of this administration and the situations you're talking about to talk about them with authority. Why is that?

I find it very unusual, not to mention rather arrogant of you. Either you're an elaborate troll, a sock-puppet for a former user or you're just a plain, unadulterated idiot. Which is it?

[Chambered Word]

Oh, can we all just fucking get over TAT's trolling already and just agree that we shouldn't be joking about racism in the future? :rolleyes:

[The Feral Underclass]

I am like - totally - over it.

[Steve_j]

Oh, can we all just fucking get over TAT's trolling already and just agree that we shouldn't be joking about racism in the future? :rolleyes:

This

[Queercommie Girl]

I'm not surprised by some of this given how much this forum seems to have been taken over by trigger-happy personal insults, petty interpersonal antagonisms and sectarian rivalries.

[Honggweilo]

i guess alot of people decided that RL activism is more productive then wasting time on a message board

[The Feral Underclass]

I'm not surprised by some of this given how much this forum seems to have been taken over by trigger-happy personal insults, petty interpersonal antagonisms and sectarian rivalries.

It's not been taken over. It began that way. You can't expect massively divergent sections of the left to all come and be friends with each other. This isn't toy-town.

[Chambered Word]

I'm not surprised by some of this given how much this forum seems to have been taken over by trigger-happy personal insults, petty interpersonal antagonisms and sectarian rivalries.

What? Haven't you only been here since March this year?

[Queercommie Girl]

It's not been taken over. It began that way. You can't expect massively divergent sections of the left to all come and be friends with each other. This isn't toy-town.

As I have emphasised before, there is a fundamental difference between having heated debates and having personal rivalries.

Take this example from communist history: the cultural revolution in China. One reason it failed was because the factional struggles degenerated, people just used the political sectarianism as a vehicle to settle their own personal agendas.

United front actually is quite important in a serious sense. I do feel that Chinese socialists understand this better, and it is having an impact on the political struggles in China. Case in point: compare Western Trotskyism and Chinese Maoism. With Trot groups, you can only see them split more and more, you never see them join together. So most Trot organisations are too tiny to have any real effect in the world. However, recently in mainland China several revolutionary Maoist organisations decided to formally join together into one large party - the Maoist Communist Party. They understood the need to sacrifice some of their sectarian differences for the sake of political unity. In a strategic sense, there is simply strength in unity. It is often said in class struggle that we should watch for splits in the ranks of the capitalist rulers, for that's when we will get our chance. Trade Unionism is based on the principles of collective solidarity. Division invites conquest.

I don't assume that those on the left would just somehow magically all come together, but see I've joined groups here on RevLeft called "party for Marxist unity" and "post-sectarian revolutionaries". I think we should have a conscious aim to have more unity. Doesn't mean it will arrive soon or that it would be easy. Revolution is a continuous process as Mao said, not just an one-off event.

Bit of a tangent here, but you seem to be indirectly accusing me for being "childish". Well the ancient Chinese philosopher Mencius once said that "great people never lose the heart of children". I think it is actually a good thing to have the intellect and mind of a "wise old man" but the heart of a child - I don't believe socialists should become cynics. Socialism in a basic philosophical sense is after all, underpinned by the hope in a better future. That's why all carry on the struggle. Take queer or LGBT politics for instance. We fundamentally believe that through our efforts, we can arrive at a future that is significantly more equal for all queer people, if we didn't have this basic hope, there would be no point or motivation to struggle for queer rights in the first place.

Well the OP mentioned some concerns about RevLeft. I'm not been dogmatic here. I mean if personal insults are common but most people just take them quite trivially then it doesn't really matter either. But you know if there develops a lot of serious personal antagonisms all the time then frankly it's counter-productive. Competition needs to be constructive and based on co-operation. Marxists criticise capitalist competition for being anarchic and destructive, so we should be like the opposite. A certain basic level of mutual respect and co-operation is required for people to have constructive discussions and debates with each other. Ultimately the aim is to further the cause of the left, so if personal antagonisms detracts people from doing that effectively, then well it becomes a negative thing.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

As I have emphasised before, there is a fundamental difference between having heated debates and having personal rivalries.

Take this example from communist history: the cultural revolution in China. One reason it failed was because the factional struggles degenerated, people just used the political sectarianism as a vehicle to settle their own personal agendas.

United front actually is quite important in a serious sense. I do feel that Chinese socialists understand this better, and it is having an impact on the political struggles in China. Case in point: compare Western Trotskyism and Chinese Maoism. With Trot groups, you can only see them split more and more, you never see them join together. So most Trot organisations are too tiny to have any real effect in the world. However, recently in mainland China several revolutionary Maoist organisations decided to formally join together into one large party - the Maoist Communist Party. They understood the need to sacrifice some of their sectarian differences for the sake of political unity. In a strategic sense, there is simply strength in unity. It is often said in class struggle that we should watch for splits in the ranks of the capitalist rulers, for that's when we will get our chance. Trade Unionism is based on the principles of collective solidarity. Division invites conquest.

I don't assume that those on the left would just somehow magically all come together, but see I've joined groups here on RevLeft called "party for Marxist unity" and "post-sectarian revolutionaries". I think we should have a conscious aim to have more unity. Doesn't mean it will arrive soon or that it would be easy. Revolution is a continuous process as Mao said, not just an one-off event.

Bit of a tangent here, but you seem to be indirectly accusing me for being "childish". Well the ancient Chinese philosopher Mencius once said that "great people never lose the heart of children". I think it is actually a good thing to have the intellect and mind of a "wise old man" but the heart of a child - I don't believe socialists should become cynics. Socialism in a basic philosophical sense is after all, underpinned by the hope in a better future. That's why all carry on the struggle. Take queer or LGBT politics for instance. We fundamentally believe that through our efforts, we can arrive at a future that is significantly more equal for all queer people, if we didn't have this basic hope, there would be no point or motivation to struggle for queer rights in the first place.

Well the OP mentioned some concerns about RevLeft. I'm not been dogmatic here. I mean if personal insults are common but most people just take them quite trivially then it doesn't really matter either. But you know if there develops a lot of serious personal antagonisms all the time then frankly it's counter-productive. Competition needs to be constructive and based on co-operation. Marxists criticise capitalist competition for being anarchic and destructive, so we should be like the opposite. A certain basic level of mutual respect and co-operation is required for people to have constructive discussions and debates with each other. Ultimately the aim is to further the cause of the left, so if personal antagonisms detracts people from doing that effectively, then well it becomes a negative thing.

Dude, no one cares about china.

[Queercommie Girl]

Dude, no one cares about china.

Most serious socialists do. Socialism is an internationalist project, and the Chinese working class is the biggest in the world in term of size.

[Pirate Utopian]

I think what he means is that nobody cares about nagging repeatedly like a broken record about how more civil Chinese forums are. It's quite a bore.

[Queercommie Girl]

I think what he means is that nobody cares about nagging repeatedly like a broken record about how more civil Chinese forums are. It's quite a bore.

I wasn't even talking about Chinese forums, I was about the left movement in general.

Chinese forums can often be uncivil in a different way.

"Civil" or "not civil" isn't the key point, the key point is to not let personal antagonisms (of any kind, whether the more explicit Western kind or the more subtle Chinese kind) get to the stage where they negatively affect serious political co-operation and work.

I am a pragmatist, at the end of the day all it matters is what results you get. We can carry on endlessly arguing about which forums are more civil etc in an egoistical way, but at the end of the day the real decider is how much revolutionary work a particular movement, tendency or organisation has actually accomplished in the concrete sense.

[The Red Next Door]

Its not dying, it just becoming a sectarian site fest.

[Il Medico]

Its not dying, it just becoming a sectarian site fest.
Becoming?

[The Red Next Door]

Becoming?

correction: IS a sectarian fest.

[Blackscare]

With this thread, I officially stop sticking up for TS.

Motherfucker is wearing thin on my nerves.

[The Feral Underclass]

Its not dying, it just becoming a sectarian site fest.

It has always been that way. It's not a new thing.

[Tablo]

Meh, the site seems the same as when I first joined except the quality of discussions may have dropped a bit. no biggy. Still like the site a lot.

[Wanted Man]

Maybe one slight difference is that in the past, people like RS2K and Rosa L. had more of a presence. They could be annoying in their own right, but they did have unique contributions of their own. They were basically the kind of people who are more than just "users". Of course, Rosa still posts, but both her supporters and we dialectical mystics basically just take her for granted.

What may be a bit saddening is that on Revleft, you can either distinguish yourself by making more nuanced and even-handed posts, or you can try and stand out by being really loud and dogmatic about everything. Of course, this always existed, and it's no good to be nostalgic for "the old days", but it does seem like the latter is much more encouraged now.

[Tablo]

Maybe one slight difference is that in the past, people like RS2K and Rosa L. had more of a presence. They could be annoying in their own right, but they did have unique contributions of their own. They were basically the kind of people who are more than just "users". Of course, Rosa still posts, but both her supporters and we dialectical mystics basically just take her for granted.

What may be a bit saddening is that on Revleft, you can either distinguish yourself by making more nuanced and even-handed posts, or you can try and stand out by being really loud and dogmatic about everything. Of course, this always existed, and it's no good to be nostalgic for "the old days", but it does seem like the latter is much more encouraged now.
I think this is pretty accurate. I get more rep from my dogmatic one liners than from any other type of posts I make on this site.

[synthesis]

I think this is pretty accurate. I get more rep from my dogmatic one liners than from any other type of posts I make on this site.

Very true. I actually think that the rep system has done more to lower the quality of this forum than any other singular factor.

[Communist]

.

I've noticed that the groups are less active than a year ago - at least the ones I frequented then and still look at now.

.

[al8]

Revleft has not lost it's luster. It's even improved slightly. It's become less pissy and liberal. Trolling is at an all time low - and trolling has less of an affect on users. Over all, users have become more hardened, conciliatory - not so easily fallen for drama of the pointless kind.

[Rusty Shackleford]

i always thought of this place as a news resource and a learning resource. secondarily, a good place for discussion. thirdly, a place for fun in chit-chat and the occasional troll thread that pops up every now and then... or when bob avakian joins :lol:

[Dimentio]

Please Thomas, why do you make this into a flamewar?

[Queercommie Girl]

Revleft has not lost it's luster. It's even improved slightly. It's become less pissy and liberal. Trolling is at an all time low - and trolling has less of an affect on users. Over all, users have become more hardened, conciliatory - not so easily fallen for drama of the pointless kind.

That is the right direction, now just need to increase the amount of conciliatory attitude even more.

Yes, you've got it right, the "pissy, trollish, non-conciliatory" attitude is not proletarian but petit-bourgeois.

[The Feral Underclass]

Iseul, I don't think you spend much time with the working class, do you?

[Queercommie Girl]

Iseul, I don't think you spend much time with the working class, do you?

I'm from China and I live in the UK. My family in China is actually from a semi-working class semi-petit-bureaucrat background (using the political model that treats the Stalinist bureaucracy is essentially a "class" in its own right).

At the moment my mode of life in the UK is definitely proletarian. I worked as a teacher for a while before. Now I'm doing part-time voluntary work and a part-time student. As for socialist activism, I've worked with Trotskyist parties like the CWI and the SWP, trade unions and students.

People have somewhat different definitions of what the "proletariat" is. I consider teachers and students to be proletarian, not middle class. I also support trade unionism and party vanguardism. Maybe my political stance is not "left" enough for you, but here in England among the Trotskyists, trade unionists and students I've interacted with (what Leninists would consider as the more "vanguardist" sections of the working class), I rarely ever see any kind of personal insults or antagonisms. In fact, everyone seems to be very polite, even if debates can sometimes get intense. The only use of swear words I've seen is on one of the SWP's anti-fascist slogans: Fuck the BNP! (I don't disagree with that)

Chinese workers also do not use swear words a lot at all. Generally speaking Chinese workers tend to be very collectivist, altruistic and diligent. In mainland China the working class in general is pretty close to the Leninist "ideal" of the advanced industrial proletariat. On the other hand, the petit-bourgeois in China and the scions of the newly rich as China is turning capitalist are largely selfish and corrupt. They wouldn't think twice to backstab another person for their own benefit, and they do very little study, work or activism of any kind, all they seem to care about is hedonistic indulgence and getting lots of sex.

[Andropov]

Of course its dying, its a pathetic shadow of its former self.
It can be all stemed back to the purge of the CC when some of the most active and colourfull members left the site, the likes of Pogue, Sam b, Invader Zim etc.
Now many of these I deteseted and would be in constant debate/arguement with but that was where the enjoyment was.
Now it is just a pale reflection of its former self.
Also I have noticed that some of the other posters dont use it as much, like PRC-UTE and Pastradamus which further contributes to its degenerating.
I miss the old revleft, with the CC and the constant debate and flame wars.

[Rusty Shackleford]

lets hold a referendum to bring the CC back.

[Jazzratt]

lets hold a referendum to bring the CC back. We could do that. We could also not, not doing it is a plan too.

[Rusty Shackleford]

We could do that. We could also not, not doing it is a plan too.
fuck your opinion, were doing it anyways. this is a call to arms!

http://aes-humanities8.wikispaces.com/file/view/1917_IWW.JPG/31633063/1917_IWW.JPG



POSTERS OF REVLEFT UNITE! LET US HAVE OUR REPRESENTATION!

or dont. its cool.

[Adi Shankara]

fuck your opinion, were doing it anyways. this is a call to arms!
POSTERS OF REVLEFT UNITE! LET US HAVE OUR REPRESENTATION!


a Mutiny, you say?

http://www.posters.ws/images/395020/battleship_potemkin.jpg

lol

[synthesis]

Generally speaking Chinese workers tend to be very collectivist, altruistic and diligent. In mainland China the working class in general is pretty close to the Leninist "ideal" of the advanced industrial proletariat. [citation needed]

You don't say?

[leftist manson]

Of course its dying, its a pathetic shadow of its former self.
It can be all stemed back to the purge of the CC when some of the most active and colourfull members left the site, the likes of Pogue, Sam b, Invader Zim etc.
Now many of these I deteseted and would be in constant debate/arguement with but that was where the enjoyment was.
Now it is just a pale reflection of its former self.
Also I have noticed that some of the other posters dont use it as much, like PRC-UTE and Pastradamus which further contributes to its degenerating.
I miss the old revleft, with the CC and the constant debate and flame wars.

Yeah *shedding tears*
Don't you guys think that the numbers itself have dwindled (of the extremely active posters)..... There was a massive surge of Leftist activity (in real life i mean) after the start of the Iraq war for a couple of years.... I heard people talking of che-lives back in the day and how they had joined.... Not now.... Some of the newer lefties i've met in real life don't even know about revleft.....I know we're on che-lives.com still ...
Is there any other way to popularise it....

[leftist manson]

I'm from China and I live in the UK. My family in China is actually from a semi-working class semi-petit-bureaucrat background (using the political model that treats the Stalinist bureaucracy is essentially a "class" in its own right).

At the moment my mode of life in the UK is definitely proletarian. I worked as a teacher for a while before. Now I'm doing part-time voluntary work and a part-time student. As for socialist activism, I've worked with Trotskyist parties like the CWI and the SWP, trade unions and students.

People have somewhat different definitions of what the "proletariat" is. I consider teachers and students to be proletarian, not middle class. I also support trade unionism and party vanguardism. Maybe my political stance is not "left" enough for you, but here in England among the Trotskyists, trade unionists and students I've interacted with (what Leninists would consider as the more "vanguardist" sections of the working class), I rarely ever see any kind of personal insults or antagonisms. In fact, everyone seems to be very polite, even if debates can sometimes get intense. The only use of swear words I've seen is on one of the SWP's anti-fascist slogans: Fuck the BNP! (I don't disagree with that)

Chinese workers also do not use swear words a lot at all. Generally speaking Chinese workers tend to be very collectivist, altruistic and diligent. In mainland China the working class in general is pretty close to the Leninist "ideal" of the advanced industrial proletariat. On the other hand, the petit-bourgeois in China and the scions of the newly rich as China is turning capitalist are largely selfish and corrupt. They wouldn't think twice to backstab another person for their own benefit, and they do very little study, work or activism of any kind, all they seem to care about is hedonistic indulgence and getting lots of sex.

Your posts are sweet and have that personal observation cum theoretical analysis that made me a communist in the first place....
Love reading your posts..... jus sayin'

[Rusty Shackleford]

actually the leftists that i know that have not heard of this website have accomplished a lot... maybe theres a connection... not sure though.

[leftist manson]

a Mutiny, you say?

http://www.posters.ws/images/395020/battleship_potemkin.jpg

lol

haha , ALL ABOARD!!!!

[Queercommie Girl]

You don't say?

I was from China. My family background is semi-working class. Now I work with Chinaworker and the Maoist Communist Party in China. So I think I am qualified to talk about what the Chinese working class is like.

Objectively the only vice among some Chinese workers (which I've got a bit of myself) is that while many are diligent, some aren't really hard-working and are a bit lazy. In the old Maoist days China used to have one of the best social welfare systems in developing countries, called the Iron Rice Bowl. (It means wages are absolutely guaranteed no matter how little work you do :)) The workload back then was less, and workers can be a bit of a "layabout" sometimes, just getting together with a few mates to have a drink, play some card games or a game of Chinese chess etc. Those days are gone. Today's Chinese workers are forced to work 12 or even 14 hours a day by their capitalist bosses.

The Chinese working class is now one of the most important proletarian forces in the entire world, that's just an objective fact. One reason I work with the CWI is that it is one of the most active Trotskyist organisations in China. No other Western Trot party has got an actual branch like CWI does. I know the leading member of Chinaworker (CWI China) quite well, he is a personal friend of mine. His background is more "firmly working class", but he is also very well-educated. He can recite poetry written by ancient Chinese poets, and have a great understanding of world history in general. He is also one of most hard-working person I've ever met. He has no girlfriend, no date, no wife, (he used to be married but now he is divorced - he never told me but I think I know the reason for the divorce - he works for socialism too much) all he ever does is socialist work. He didn't even have time to watch the world cup. Just working for socialism everyday. Some people in the CWI says he has a "Chinese sweatshop" mentality when it comes to work. When other CWI Trots go out to party, he stays in the party offices to carry on working, often into the small hours of the next morning. His entire life is literally just "work, work, work". But he does all of it completely voluntarily.

Well he is a bit of a workaholic, but traditionally Chinese vanguardist socialists have a reputation of being asexual workaholics. It's a part of our proletarian culture.

[Panda Tse Tung]

Maybe my political stance is not "left" enough for you, but here in England among the Trotskyists, trade unionists and students I've interacted with (what Leninists would consider as the more "vanguardist" sections of the working class),


Students are the vangaurd of the working class! arrr....

[Queercommie Girl]

Students are the vangaurd of the working class! arrr....

Well, some students.

The leader of Chinese Trotskyism and one of the two founding members of the Chinese Communist Party, Chen Duxiu, was an academic - he was the dean of the Beijing University.

Many early CCP members came from a student or academic background. Chinese vanguardism always had a lot of people from intellectual backgrounds. Even Mao Zedong was an intellectual.

Plus, nowadays economically speaking many students actually are workers because they continuously work in paid positions even while they are still at university.

Students do not possess a singular class nature. Some students are proletarian, while others are petit-bourgeois, bourgeois or even feudal. It varies a lot depending on who you are talking about.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Dude, stop talking about china.

[Queercommie Girl]

^

I thought anarchists support freedom of speech?

I only responded to what others have asked.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

^

I thought anarchists support freedom of speech?

I only responded to what others have asked.

It was a friendly suggestion, you don't want to be the new Thomas Sankara.

[Wanted Man]

Dude, stop talking about china.

Dude, unplug your keyboard, or better yet, slice off your fingertips.

[Queercommie Girl]

It was a friendly suggestion, you don't want to be the new Thomas Sankara.

Actually I think it's only a few people who have problems with Sankara, more people seem to have a problem with The Anarchist Tension.

Sankara and I are nothing alike. Sankara posts things which are dodgy, like saying Mongols have blonde hair, and start all kinds of random threads everywhere; I always post in a principled manner, and I don't start random threads, only responding to other people's words.

So unless you've got a problem with the Chinese people, I don't see why you dislike what I say so much. Perhaps you can at least comprehensively explain why this is the case.

[Andropov]

Dude, unplug your keyboard, or better yet, slice off your fingertips.
He could still type with his bloody stumps though so back to square one again.