Activity in the real world.

[superborys]

I know this is not strictly political in topic, but I feel it has to do with politics.

I get the feeling that most of us here are just theorists, that we aren't really people trying to further it in any quantifiable way, and you all know what I mean by 'it'.

I've made a thread before (or I at least mentioned this in a thread I made) that we shouldn't sit here and perpetually say, "Oh well this bit of news means the masses are converting! They're beginning to see what for!" Sure they may be upset, but people are quite incapable of taking their rage out when they don't understand it, or know what to take their rage out on.

If the people are seriously disquieted due to a recent political scandal, or a hint of socialism that lights the fire in the people's eye, unless riots are started or we take advantage of the opportunity, and by that I mean the vulnerable, receptive state the people are in, to further ourselves, the people will just be bribed back into the background. We have had an uncountable number of times here in America during Obama's administration to do this, but I have never heard of someone on RevLeft doing this!

If the people aren't shown what's what in their weakened state of... what's the word, bribery (?), then all that will happen is the government will do some ploy to make it seem better, and unfortunately people as a mass are vulnerable, and it solves the disquieting problem quickly.


I don't understand why people here on RevLeft don't take their best friends aside, and explain to them why socio-communism is the fairest, most equal, most productive, and most comfortable way of living. Before the summer began, literally none of my friends were open Communists. As school looms near however, I have at least 6 of my friends who would stand up to someone and proudly say, "Yes, I'm a Communist." Now, I understand that 6 people in three months sounds like a monumentous achievement :P, but I have hardly even tried. Had I spent two days out of every week to do this, I could have possibly 30 people on my side. Most of my social acquaintances that had a brain to speak of readily accepted what I said to them when I told them (using different explanatory methods for each) what Communism was.


I hope to expound upon my efforts in school, but I feel alone in my struggle, save for those people I have converted.

Why doesn't RevLeft encourage this? I've read here time and time again that we can only begin the protests and riots that are the precursors of revolution and uprising when the people are aware of their plight that is Capitalism, but I see no people here that speak of ways to increase that class consciousness! I see no one here offering organizations to do this! I see no one here who says, "Ok, I have a political warband (best word I could think of, anyone got a better one?) here, and we're going to be spreading the word of Communism openly in public on this day in this area, if you're here, help!"

Now, when I say "openly in public", I do not mean going out into the streets with signs that read 'down with Capitalism!' and 'Abolish wage-labour!' and all that other nonsense.

Let me break it to anyone who thinks that's terribly effective: It's not. Every time I walk by people with signs, I ignore them. People in their cars are not watching, and people walking somewhere do not want to be bothered if they're reduced to walking. Protesting with less than 5% of the country's population in any given country will get us nowhere.

Let me elaborate.

When I see people picketed behind fences, and corralled into small spaces yelling at passers-by, I think they're pathetic. They're misusing valuable man-hours shouting at people. I will tell you, unless you're selling something, people are not going to stop and listen. Being in an open-air environment like that in a public place implies hostility, and although most of us are hostile to Capitalist sympathizers, we do not need to advertise this!


Again, this is more of a rant about our political method, but I feel totally alone when I come here. This place feels more like an opinionated encyclopedia as opposed to a gathering ground for leftists. All I ever see on the politics branch is news put forth from a leftist's perspective. I have rarely seen threads talking about the news and actually using it well, or at all for that matter. I understand why our movement has failed and simmered to a low degree, we are not active! Just because you're in a political party that meets regularly does not mean you're active!

I would officially declare this rant over, but feel free to chastise me, mock me, prod at my ego, call me a fool, and other things for being passionate about this and caring.

[Pretty Flaco]

Where I live, there is no activity. I'm just a teenager, so the best I can do is to make socialism seem appealing to my friends. As soon as I can go on my own though, I expect to take a larger role. There's no way in hell that I'd sit on my ass for much longer.

[superborys]

As well as where I live there is no activity. I suppose I'm just more concerned about it than most teenagers. I have tried, but I plan as you do, to adopt a greater role in activism about socio-communism once I'm allowed to live alone.

[Magón]

Well for most on here, they probably haven't been brought up in a society where such action as violence or just strong activism has been something that's been done a lot in the name of a Leftist or any Ideological cause. Being born in the US, but being brought up in Mexico for the most part, has kind of given me the chance to see different places that most probably haven't seen or have the funding to see.

Every time I go somewhere, I don't always bring up Anarcho-Syndicalism with people. Sometimes I do, but sometimes it doesn't even cross my mind to do so. Sometimes too, you have to be careful at what you say. Because I can't just say at one moment, "Hey guys, become an Anarchist with me! If you're interested in fighting a Revolution, meet me at such and such." Then expect a large gathering. These kinds of things take time, and for the most part, no Leftist party is fully confident in how to handle everything that it takes to bringing Revolution, or what happens after Revolution. There's all sorts of things that need to be taken into account, but of course, there's already place in the world fighting Revolutions in some form or another: India with it's Maoists, South American Nations fighting American Imperialism for their resources, Greek Anarchists fighting against the Government and Oppression, Nepalese Maoists, etc.

But they've had years to think this stuff through, and have gathered a following. People here are either a part of some Union, Group, or nothing at all like myself, but just don't have the necessary funds or resources to start something. At least, that's how I see it.

[superborys]

Well for most on here, they probably haven't been brought up in a society where such action as violence or just strong activism has been something that's been done a lot in the name of a Leftist or any Ideological cause. Being born in the US, but being brought up in Mexico for the most part, has kind of given me the chance to see different places that most probably haven't seen or have the funding to see.

Every time I go somewhere, I don't always bring up Anarcho-Syndicalism with people. Sometimes I do, but sometimes it doesn't even cross my mind to do so. Sometimes too, you have to be careful at what you say. Because I can't just say at one moment, "Hey guys, become an Anarchist with me! If you're interested in fighting a Revolution, meet me at such and such." Then expect a large gathering. These kinds of things take time, and for the most part, no Leftist party is fully confident in how to handle everything that it takes to bringing Revolution, or what happens after Revolution. There's all sorts of things that need to be taken into account, but of course, there's already place in the world fighting Revolutions in some form or another: India with it's Maoists, South American Nations fighting American Imperialism for their resources, Greek Anarchists fighting against the Government and Oppression, Nepalese Maoists, etc.

But they've had years to think this stuff through, and have gathered a following. People here are either a part of some Union, Group, or nothing at all like myself, but just don't have the necessary funds or resources to start something. At least, that's how I see it.

Perhaps I miscommunicated myself. I did not mean to imply that we should all just interrupt conversations with poltical dribble (as funny as that could be), I was merely asking why people don't do the things I do, which is start a conversation solely about politics and the like. The reason those countries have a following is because the people that wanted to make it happen went out and proselytized for their cause.

I actually wasn't even really talking about interrupting conversations when you're with friends. I was more talking about (assuming we meet the people in question in real life) calling them, asking them a couple of preliminary questions to catch their attention, and then ask them to come over to talk, and then begin it. Obviously some people will be posers and tools and only do it if there's enough people to feel 'cool', and still there will be people who don't want to deal with politics, but they will come around when action is taken, when the politics of it are secondary.

What's stopping us in America from becoming one of those countries you talked about? China has our economy by the throat, and we're the most indebted nation in the world, and if China wanted to, it could call for it's payment, and we would be fucked. I think people just don't realize this. There are plenty of things that we could start riots and uprisings over right now, but besides those things, everything is pretty well in America.

Now certainly we won't all be in agreement on how things should run, but perhaps we could all come to the agreement that things have got to change, and it we would take to decide upon it. It's a gradual process, deciding on governments. A speculative statement would be that we would just have to let America roil in anarchy until (or if) we come up with a better system. People in anarchy may just spontaneously organize themselves in a communal system, such as with the syndicalist or communist branches of anarchy.

[Magón]

Perhaps I miscommunicated myself. I did not mean to imply that we should all just interrupt conversations with poltical dribble (as funny as that could be), I was merely asking why people don't do the things I do, which is start a conversation solely about politics and the like. The reason those countries have a following is because the people that wanted to make it happen went out and proselytized for their cause.

I actually wasn't even really talking about interrupting conversations when you're with friends. I was more talking about (assuming we meet the people in question in real life) calling them, asking them a couple of preliminary questions to catch their attention, and then ask them to come over to talk, and then begin it. Obviously some people will be posers and tools and only do it if there's enough people to feel 'cool', and still there will be people who don't want to deal with politics, but they will come around when action is taken, when the politics of it are secondary.

What's stopping us in America from becoming one of those countries you talked about? China has our economy by the throat, and we're the most indebted nation in the world, and if China wanted to, it could call for it's payment, and we would be fucked. I think people just don't realize this. There are plenty of things that we could start riots and uprisings over right now, but besides those things, everything is pretty well in America.

Now certainly we won't all be in agreement on how things should run, but perhaps we could all come to the agreement that things have got to change, and it we would take to decide upon it. It's a gradual process, deciding on governments. A speculative statement would be that we would just have to let America roil in anarchy until (or if) we come up with a better system. People in anarchy may just spontaneously organize themselves in a communal system, such as with the syndicalist or communist branches of anarchy.

Well for one, there's not enough Anarchists in the US to just spontaneously organize. And also, to spontaneously organize, you'd have to find every real Anarchist in the US or make it well known, that you're organizing at this point at this time, at this such and such date. Who comes, will probably be some fakes, but also more likely than none, will be the real thing.

But being that this is America, where Hot Dogs, Daytime TV, Celebrities in Rehab, Reality Shows, etc., etc. are hounding the average American, it's likely they just don't care or are interested. Nobody's talked with them enough, or nobody's put the time into. And once again, you have to be fairly organized and collected to do such a thing, or the people will just look at you like one of those street corner preachers, spouting Leftist Garbage to a crowd who hardly cares, and would rather go into that designer shop than listen to you.

There needs to be a collected spark somewhere, somehow, I don't have the answer for that one. If I did, there'd already be a Revolution. :thumbup1:

[Lolshevik]

ain't much of a workers' movement where I live. still, I've built protests, attended demonstrations, worked with the local peace movement (at times broadening its scope, at times being let down and demoralized by pacifist-hippie and liberal elements), and recruited others to the cause of socialism - some still active, some inactive but with potential.

and I'm not unique in anyway. theoretical discussion and debate is critical. but I seriously doubt revleft is populated solely by armchair revolutionaries - though we certainly do have a few. ; )

[superborys]

Well for one, there's not enough Anarchists in the US to just spontaneously organize. And also, to spontaneously organize, you'd have to find every real Anarchist in the US or make it well known, that you're organizing at this point at this time, at this such and such date. Who comes, will probably be some fakes, but also more likely than none, will be the real thing.

But being that this is America, where Hot Dogs, Daytime TV, Celebrities in Rehab, Reality Shows, etc., etc. are hounding the average American, it's likely they just don't care or are interested. Nobody's talked with them enough, or nobody's put the time into. And once again, you have to be fairly organized and collected to do such a thing, or the people will just look at you like one of those street corner preachers, spouting Leftist Garbage to a crowd who hardly cares, and would rather go into that designer shop than listen to you.

There needs to be a collected spark somewhere, somehow, I don't have the answer for that one. If I did, there'd already be a Revolution. :thumbup1:

I suppose I've miscommunicated myself again :P.

What I meant to say was for each Leftist to go out, one-on-one or however they like, and bring their friends over to our side. I said it in my OP that I thought corner-preachers were full of their own crap thinking that they would get any success. What I mean to say by the Anarchist thing is post-revolution, how you said we were unsure on how to govern ourselves, I was making a comment that Anarchists may just spontaneously organize themselves. Anarchy is technically the first form of government a human will default to, and then proto-Communism is next, so it's likely that without intervention from a group offering a structured government that the nation would regress into a group of warbands, clans, and the like, with pockets of civilization of anarchists, etc.


What you've said about the TV shows is painfully true. Americans are so deluded and content in their armchair lives that we would have to slap them in the face with a pistol and order them to defend themselves from the oncoming military before they realized it.

@Lolshevik
Certainly the theoretical debate is critical, but attending peace protests and what you've said, while honorable, is just not helpful to the movement as a whole. It's extremely appreciated that you voice your strength and devotion, but as has been said before, unless the people are in a dire situation, disquieted, or class consciousness is high, any public act will be of little consequence. The government sees us as so little a threat they haven't even begun the anti-socio-communist propaganda, nor have they arrested any dissidents. We just aren't a threat without the class consciousness, and that's what this whole thread is about, my complaint of:

Everyone here has a well-structured, planned, and thought-out schematic on how the revolution will go, the preliminary steps on what will lead up to it, the prerequisites for the people before a revolution can occur, and most of these schematics begin with 'class consciousness must be high', but that's as far as the people here on RevLeft seem to get. No one seems to try and go out and raise class consciousness!

[Os Cangaceiros]

The government sees us as so little a threat they haven't even begun the anti-socio-communist propaganda

Ruling class ideology is actually broadcasted every single day.


and most of these schematics begin with 'class consciousness must be high'

True, although some (http://nihilistcommunism.blogspot.com/) disagree.

I wouldn't be suprised if most of the people on this site happily broadcast their views to anyone who will listen, actually, so I'm not sure what your criticism is of...

[superborys]

@Explosive Situation

Then I suppose I tune it out. What I mean by that then is overt propaganda. It's not like how it was in the 70's-90's where America had posters saying "Fight Communism!"

I guess that's what I mean by propaganda.

I sound very pushy and outspoken, but I mean to be amicable and to listen well. When you say 'who will listen', that's exactly my point.
Sure, there are tons of people who are closet-socialists, but unless we go to them and give them the stimuli that activates their socialist tendencies, it won't happen. We can't wait for them to come to us, we have to at least make them aware of who we are.

[Qayin]

I used to alot more until Puente became the "voice" of the Immigrant Rights movement here in the East Valley. I still attend but apathy..

[Weezer]

Once I'm 18, I'll be in the streets. I live in a reactionary family and I can't just go to LA and attend every protest I hear about.

[AK]

I'm not active IRL, simply for the fact that I have restrictions placed on me by my parents (how stereotypical, the teenage anarchist can't protest because his parents say no) and school commitments (I wouldn't exactly call myself committed to any part of the schooling process, but oh well).

[Optiow]

I do not wish to speak to my friends about it right now for many reasons.

They wouldn't really care. None of my friends are really political, and they do not particularly like politics. They have a vague idea who Marx is and who Lenin is from school, but my friends are uninterested. They know the odd thing, but not enough to have a conversation.

I also wish to keep people in the dark about my leftist beliefs for now. I do not know enough to start 'converting' people, and I don't want to either. For now, I want to learn myself before I start teaching others.

[Invincible Summer]

@Explosive Situation

Then I suppose I tune it out. What I mean by that then is overt propaganda. It's not like how it was in the 70's-90's where America had posters saying "Fight Communism!"

Have you watched Fox "News" within the past few years?


I sound very pushy and outspoken, but I mean to be amicable and to listen well. When you say 'who will listen', that's exactly my point.
Sure, there are tons of people who are closet-socialists, but unless we go to them and give them the stimuli that activates their socialist tendencies, it won't happen. We can't wait for them to come to us, we have to at least make them aware of who we are.

I understand your intention, but really it comes off as proselytizing and pushy and no one wants to hear that. I don't think being "that guy who always calls me up randomly to talk to me about communism" is very helpful.

[death_by_semicolon]

@ the OP...

I am in complete agreement. What is most needed is active ENGAGEMENT with the very people we need to convince in order to make social revolution a reality. Not just actively cloistering ourselves in party meetings and "free speech" zones at protests. While it's nice to be among people who agree with you for the purposes of unity and theorizing, (IMO) it should always be secondary to the perpetual conversation we must have with workers in order to awaken them to their own exploitation. If we give that conversation up, all of our other pursuits are pointless and do nothing to advance any cause.

[superborys]

Have you watched Fox "News" within the past few years?



I understand your intention, but really it comes off as proselytizing and pushy and no one wants to hear that. I don't think being "that guy who always calls me up randomly to talk to me about communism" is very helpful.

I actually don't watch Fox. I don't watch any TV other than for entertainment, which is what it's useful for, and not much else. I watch shows like Mythbusters, Bones, House, other shows that are supposed to entertain me. There is something disturbing when people take information from one source without considering it themselves, without getting a second opinion, or even asking other people about it.


You guys are all very literal, and it's rather amusing at how poorly I speak. I always seem to assume I'm talking to people who know me well, and understand that I speak, although occasionally, in metaphors and examples.

When I say "call them up and talk to them about communism", it's never that unsubtle. I always call, and I steer the conversation towards politics. I'm not brash or abrasive, it's always subtle and gradual so that the conversation ends up talking about politics. It's then when I begin talking, however casually, about my beliefs, which are even then shrouded in mystery and without label or name. If they show an interest/agreement with me, then I offer for them to come over sometime and we can have a chat. Sometimes people take the offer, sometimes they don't. But I have never just called a friend and said, "Hey man I wanna talk politics with you."



For now, I want to learn myself before I start teaching others.


In my eyes, you are at no fault. I mean the so-called armchair revolutionaries that we have loafing around the forums. They are the ones that bother me the most. Guys, no matter how bad it sounds, how hurtful it may be to your social life, if you want to raise class consciousness, you have to go out there and do it! Sure, it may happen on its own, but here in America that could take decades. Things are too good, people have no real, tangible reason to look for an alternative. While things may not be great, they certainly aren't bad.



@ the OP...

I am in complete agreement. What is most needed is active ENGAGEMENT with the very people we need to convince in order to make social revolution a reality. Not just actively cloistering ourselves in party meetings and "free speech" zones at protests. While it's nice to be among people who agree with you for the purposes of unity and theorizing, (IMO) it should always be secondary to the perpetual conversation we must have with workers in order to awaken them to their own exploitation. If we give that conversation up, all of our other pursuits are pointless and do nothing to advance any cause.


And once again someone manages to completely sum up my sentiments in less than half the words. Bravo.

[9]

Guys, no matter how bad it sounds, how hurtful it may be to your social life, if you want to raise class consciousness, you have to go out there and do it! Sure, it may happen on its own, but here in America that could take decades. Things are too good, people have no real, tangible reason to look for an alternative. While things may not be great, they certainly aren't bad.

Are you shitting me? Seriously? Last month, over 133,000 more people were laid off in the US. US workers are getting the shit kicked out of them. My (step)dad lost his job almost two years ago; in October, his unemployment runs out, his health insurance runs out, he's been looking for work every day and can't find anything. He's in his sixties, and come October, he will essentially have no means to survive. There are countless, countless people in this boat who have worked their whole lives and suddenly they're thrown out with no job openings, no skills, no ability to survive. Those of us who have jobs are working harder for longer hours and less pay, and are constantly petrified of being fired. That you think the cause of low levels of class consciousness is that life for workers in the US is "too good" only demonstrates that you are guilty of exactly the things you attempt to criticize others for; it is you who is detached, it is you who is disconnected. Maybe you should take care of this, and then you will perhaps be in a position to criticize others.
Do you think someone with no conception of what life is like for working class people, going and shouting slogans about "class consciousness" at workers is going to change a damn thing?

[superborys]

@9

Watch who you're fucking talking to.
My father nearly drank himself to death multiple times. I subsisted on ramen fucking noodles for four years of my life while my mother wasted away on drugs and alcohol, and I've never lived with my father. He was a drinker and drugger. He's worked as a pipe-fitter his entire life and his hands show his 'trophies'. I've lived in constant fear of losing my house since 2001 because of this so-called 'war'. My family has lived paycheck-to-paycheck, and we are currently in debt, and my grandfather served in the military and my grandmother has worked for 40 years of her life, and both of their LIFE'S savings are depleted now because of the bullshit my parents have pulled. My grandmother just had to sell her house because her mortgage company did illegal things and charged her more than twice the house was worth. She had to sell and move to a fucking shanty in Florida, and I'll probably never see her again before she dies. I've had to leave my house because my parents couldn't find a job, and they sent me to a friend's house so they could stay home and cry. I have seen first-hand the problems of the working-class, and what you say is short-sighted and wrong. I have friends who struggle under the constraints of this society, still brainwashed by the monotony and bullshit spouted by the mass media. I know what it means to hate your family because none of them see what the fuck is up with the country. It's not bad because no one thinks it is. Anyone that cannot see this is blind to the truth.

I have absolutely nothing to prove here. You are a fool for chastising me on a board where we're supposed to unite ourselves. I have posed a theory of helping to accelerate our progress, to perhaps see our struggles solved, to help feed the poor, i.e. our families!

Go out and see what people think can be done! Go find people who say "oh yeah we need to have communism. it's the cureall!" There aren't those people!

I have asked all 120 people in my workplace if they have even the slightest idea of what socialism really is, and they're all completely in the dark. Class consciousness is not high. Discomfort and poverty is high. You evidently do not know the difference. When the people go into the streets and workplaces saying, "You cannot oppress us just because we work for you!" Then I will cede defeat. Right now, you are wrong. You are just wrong. People are upset, and there's nothing that they can do about it because it's in the laws of our nation to allow for corporations to exploit and drain the life out of its citizens. They have no say in it. When people 'live in fear of being fired', they have nothing else on their minds but keeping their jobs. People aren't going to risk their families for some bullshit idea they haven't heard of, and those who have heard of it think it's bad. Until the ideology can provide for those people, prove to them that being aware of their plight and fighting for it won't see their family perish, we are nothing but armchair fools, and I will have no part in it. Call me a slanderer and a liar all you like. I will be out there showing people what's wrong while you sit online insulting people who actually are trying to do things. Today, my best friends father was re-diagnosed with cancer, and he's going to be living with us unless he goes back into remission, and if he does, that's another burden on our family.

I have made many people socialists, and I will not tire just because you tell me some falsehoods. I am not disconnected, a hypocrite, detached.

I cannot understand why you are so vicious towards someone who, for right now, gets to enjoy their life, and maybe even advance our cause, and perhaps someone like you will enjoy life when you deserve it the most, when you've worked your whole life. I cannot understand why you would undermine your future by damaging the morale of the youth, of the people who it lies upon to bring the revolution to bear.

I have worked, and I've worked long hours and weekends. Do not assume just because I am young that I am unlearned. I understand what it's like to take shit from people.

Mods, ban me for a rant, because if this forum has this little unity I want nothing to do with it. If I can't voice my opinion to one who berates me, none of you are worth the time to argue with.




Rant over. Feel free to call me immature for exploding, but I'm here trying to help, perhaps trying to be constructive, and all I get for thanks, or even as acknowledgement is a verbal beating?!

[svenne]

This thread feels kinda sectarian. The only way, in my experience, to get people involved (besides the subcultural kids, nothing bad said about them... yet) is to get involved and doing practical stuff in the day to day class struggle.

The organization i'm in seems to get a minor boost in member recruitment each time we skip the regular routine of doing some propaganda-thing and instead distribute scanned litterature for the university students, stand in picket lines together with the syndicalist union in Sweden or other stuff, which does a practical impact on the word.

I have spoken with people hundred of times about how good socialism/communism/anarchism/syndicalism is, but people isn't really interested in discussion clubs; they are interested in the class struggle. Several of my friends from earlier has joined the organized autonomist (the left of the left, outside of the small parties) here in Sweden after attending picket lines and such. While that doesn't keep us from having study circles and such, it's pretty much the practical work which works, all the way.

This also means that people outside the punk/alternative scene suddenly begins showing up, which from my point of view is great - socialism as a force to be reckoned with, and not some stupid lifestyleist subculture. We also eat meat :lol:

[superborys]

This thread feels kinda sectarian. The only way, in my experience, to get people involved (besides the subcultural kids, nothing bad said about them... yet) is to get involved and doing practical stuff in the day to day class struggle.

The organization i'm in seems to get a minor boost in member recruitment each time we skip the regular routine of doing some propaganda-thing and instead distribute scanned litterature for the university students, stand in picket lines together with the syndicalist union in Sweden or other stuff, which does a practical impact on the word.

I have spoken with people hundred of times about how good socialism/communism/anarchism/syndicalism is, but people isn't really interested in discussion clubs; they are interested in the class struggle. Several of my friends from earlier has joined the organized autonomist (the left of the left, outside of the small parties) here in Sweden after attending picket lines and such. While that doesn't keep us from having study circles and such, it's pretty much the practical work which works, all the way.

This also means that people outside the punk/alternative scene suddenly begins showing up, which from my point of view is great - socialism as a force to be reckoned with, and not some stupid lifestyleist subculture. We also eat meat :lol:

Well then perhaps I was partially wrong about picketing and peaceful demonstrations not doing much, at least in some parts of the world it seems to help. It just appears that Americans are too absorbed in their routine, in their lifestyle, to care about what the 'crazy people on the corner' are protesting about. I wouldn't be too keen to listen if someone were just shouting phrases at me which denounced my way of life. Perhaps Swedes are more receptive than us.

[svenne]

Well then perhaps I was partially wrong about picketing and peaceful demonstrations not doing much, at least in some parts of the world it seems to help. It just appears that Americans are too absorbed in their routine, in their lifestyle, to care about what the 'crazy people on the corner' are protesting about. I wouldn't be too keen to listen if someone were just shouting phrases at me which denounced my way of life. Perhaps Swedes are more receptive than us.

Demonstrations are pretty worthless, unless its a specific target, like a local store doing bad stuff and such. Picket lines, them i've been to at least, hasn't denounced peoples lifestyles. Well, the bourgoesies, maybe.

[Optiow]

In my eyes, you are at no fault. I mean the so-called armchair revolutionaries that we have loafing around the forums. They are the ones that bother me the most. Guys, no matter how bad it sounds, how hurtful it may be to your social life, if you want to raise class consciousness, you have to go out there and do it! Sure, it may happen on its own, but here in America that could take decades. Things are too good, people have no real, tangible reason to look for an alternative. While things may not be great, they certainly aren't bad.

I agree with that. It is good and useful to discuss theory with other leftists, but that is only half of the battle. If you are only talking with other leftists, where will it lead for recruitment? No where.

Some find their way to leftists by themselves, but the majority need to be told and made conscious of these things. And I do believe that people need to be raising consciousness at least to some degree.

However, you can not force people to do such things. For many it is difficult to tell others they are communist, let alone why they want others to become communists also.

[9]

I cannot understand why you are so vicious towards someone who, for right now, gets to enjoy their life, and maybe even advance our cause, and perhaps someone like you will enjoy life when you deserve it the most, when you've worked your whole life. I cannot understand why you would undermine your future by damaging the morale of the youth, of the people who it lies upon to bring the revolution to bear.

Look, I didn't mean to be 'vicious'. But there is an attitude that I encounter some places, mostly among University leftists in Seattle, that is also really prevalent on this board, that completely makes my blood boil; this attitude that the working class in the US is weak because US workers live in the lap of luxury, and I just find it insulting. Not only because it is wrong, but because it is ignorant. And so I assumed you were "disconnected" when you made this argument, because I don't understand how anyone who isn't can suggest - now, of all times - that there is any truth to it. But I apologize for being rude; I probably could have addressed it in a more amiable way, and I'm sure it was counterproductive.


Class consciousness is not high. Discomfort and poverty is high. You evidently do not know the difference. When the people go into the streets and workplaces saying, "You cannot oppress us just because we work for you!" Then I will cede defeat. Right now, you are wrong. You are just wrong. People are upset, and there's nothing that they can do about it because it's in the laws of our nation to allow for corporations to exploit and drain the life out of its citizens. They have no say in it. When people 'live in fear of being fired', they have nothing else on their minds but keeping their jobs. People aren't going to risk their families for some bullshit idea they haven't heard of, and those who have heard of it think it's bad. Until the ideology can provide for those people, prove to them that being aware of their plight and fighting for it won't see their family perish, we are nothingI do know the difference. I have never expressed the view that class struggle is high right now; I am quite aware that it is very low. Class struggle internationally is at a relatively low level - higher than it was fifteen-twenty years ago maybe, but still quite low. But I also don't think class struggle is the product of proselytes who have to deliver the gospel of communism to the backward masses or whatever. I think workers begin to become more class conscious, not by hearing good arguments from communists operating a stall somewhere, but by beginning to struggle for themselves and reaching more radical conclusions on their own, through these struggles. However, I absolutely think communists have to participate in these struggles and put forward a communist perspective. I go to protests, I help on picket lines, I talk with workers at my workplace, I participate in a discussion group with local radicals with the goal of reaching general political agreement and forming a chapter of an organization; but I don't have any illusions that my doing these things is going to cause workers to become class conscious. This is an idealist perspective. Workers will only reach communist conclusions through their own struggles. And in periods of low class struggle, you will simply not have a lot of workers open to communist ideas.


Mods, ban me for a rant, because if this forum has this little unity I want nothing to do with it. If I can't voice my opinion to one who berates me, none of you are worth the time to argue withNo one is going to ban you for a rant, lol; I'd have been banned a long time ago.

[superborys]

Look, I didn't mean to be 'vicious'. But there is an attitude that I encounter some places, mostly among University leftists in Seattle, that is also really prevalent on this board, that completely makes my blood boil; this attitude that the working class in the US is weak because US workers live in the lap of luxury, and I just find it insulting. Not only because it is wrong, but because it is ignorant. And so I assumed you were "disconnected" when you made this argument, because I don't understand how anyone who isn't can suggest - now, of all times - that there is any truth to it. But I apologize for being rude; I probably could have addressed it in a more amiable way, and I'm sure it was counterproductive.

I do know the difference. I have never expressed the view that class struggle is high right now; I am quite aware that it is very low. Class struggle internationally is at a relatively low level - higher than it was fifteen-twenty years ago maybe, but still quite low. But I also don't think class struggle is the product of proselytes who have to deliver the gospel of communism to the backward masses or whatever. I think workers begin to become more class conscious, not by hearing good arguments from communists operating a stall somewhere, but by beginning to struggle for themselves and reaching more radical conclusions on their own, through these struggles. However, I absolutely think communists have to participate in these struggles and put forward a communist perspective. I go to protests, I help on picket lines, I talk with workers at my workplace, I participate in a discussion group with local radicals with the goal of reaching general political agreement and forming a chapter of an organization; but I don't have any illusions that my doing these things is going to cause workers to become class conscious. This is an idealist perspective. Workers will only reach communist conclusions through their own struggles. And in periods of low class struggle, you will simply not have a lot of workers open to communist ideas.

No one is going to ban you for a rant, lol; I'd have been banned a long time ago.


I am very, very glad that we could come to a close on this disagreement.

I live in probably one of the poorest places in America, Memphis. Everywhere I go I see children who can't even buy a full lunch because there's not a job for their parents to do (not that these human filth would do them). I was really going to be disheartened if a simple disagreement were enough to shake the unity of the left.

I do not mean to say that now is good either. I mean to say that yes, the country is in a slum, we're sinking into economic depression, we're in a war we have no goal in, but compared to the rest of the world (or at least most of it), we are well. From the perspective of a cradled American who thinks the world is under his thumb, he thinks that Greece is consumed in riots, Russia's economy is worse than ours, the Mideast is still rampant with 'terrorism', Israel is still fighting the good fight versus the Palestinians, China's still our friend, etc. To this American life seems ok, or, tentatively, good.

I would attend these protests, pickets, and such if they were here to attend, actually, and if I had the resources/legal requirements. I'm still only 16, and that imposes plenty of legal restrictions (oh woe) upon me. I can't even join the nearest branch of SPUSA. Right now the only thing I can do is spread the gospel of communism.

I feel here I must disagree with you, however. Sure, the people will have to find out communism for themselves, but in my eyes there's no reason that we can't be a little angel on their shoulders nudging and prodding them in this direction, sort of as if to say 'you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink'. It takes far longer for the horse to find the water than it does for the horse to decide whether or not it wants to drink. If we at least point the horse in the right direction we can know much faster if this horse will or will not drink. And then we can find other horses who will perhaps drink from our water of communism.

And what harm can it do to increase the size of a group? There is a social theory that I call 'mob/mass theory', and that's that things are more impressive and tempting as the number of people participating in them increases. If our following in City X is 100, and we hold a picketing or other protest, it will seem impressive to some people, but to most jaded Americans, meaning most of them, this will seem like one fish in the ocean. However, if we allow our numbers to grow to perhaps 1,000 before doing this protest, the number of people that our protest impresses increases dramatically, and some people may wonder (hopefully), "What could so many people be protesting about?", and that's where our bread and butter is. I have not yet met anyone (save for one person), who did not agree with at least some of socio-communist theory. All we have to do is make people curious, and then we teach them about it. As you said, when class struggling is low, people aren't receptive to new political ideas. However, humans are all curious, and regardless of condition they will respond to their curiosity.

What I'm about to suggest is underhanded, maybe even devious, but I pose that while people have to struggle for themselves to become conscious, there's no reason we cannot also be the little devil on their shoulders and make it apparent to them some problems they have. In this scenario the devil is not evil, but he merely subverts the rationale that the person has. In my experience I've met that most people have a lot of workplace problems that could easily lead them to realize their class standing, but they all think, correctly, that this is how it's supposed to be in this system, which is all they know, and due to this conditioning that all these things that are wrong is normal, they never really see anything wrong. I suppose what I'm suggesting is have a logical argument without arguing. Bring the problems to their attention, and then maybe we will see them become class conscious.

I'm aware that there is only so much we can to do expedite the process of revolution and liberation (I'm going to be zealous about this forever, get used to the romantic descriptions), but not doing what we can is just as bad as being bourgeoisie.

[McCroskey]

Hi Superborys! Good evening.

I sympathise with you, a lot. Mainly because you remind me an awful lot how I was when I was 16. I am in my 30s now, with a family to support and a lot of "adult" worries. Just one piece of advice, if you don´t mind, and I don´t mean to be pedant or anything: Don´t let anyone dismiss you or what you think just because you are a teenager. And don´t let anyone make you feel less valued just because you don´t recite "das capital" in every conversation in your life.

You are right when you say that we should be acting, and not just discussing politics in public left wing forums. That is the problem with today´s socialist left in the world. We waste valuable time and resources arguing over subtle philosophic issues and questions on method, before we can even agree that something needs to be done. I also agree with you that going up at speakers´corner in Hyde Park with a loudspeaker and try to agitate the masses with radical messages is not going to get us anywhere. If you ask me, every historical moment demands its own techniques, and it´s not a question of convincing the working class, but of getting the working class organised and prepared to make advances towards justice. Talking to your friends is not going to help our straggle significantly, after all, they are your friends, and they don´t see you as someone who may have the answers they are looking for, they see you as someone they like to be with and have fun with. When I was at high school, at your age, I was a member of the students´ union and organised the students around local issues, but, as you say, there is a set back: your age. When I moved to university, that was gone, I was an adult and responsible for my own actions, so, even if I had lived in a reactionary family, which I didn´t, I would have had the option of doing political work. I was in a progressive students´union, and we weren´t very fond of meetings, speeches, etc. We wanted change and we wanted it now. We went on to organise activities which reflected our socialist views, and we didn´t even need to explain anything about socialism. We just build initiatives that were socialists in essence. We managed to build a campaign and have representatives in the university´s board, and I was one of them. We organised a massive collection of textbooks and material and organised a public "bookshop" where every student that had been given a grant due to economic hardship could get their books for free, without having to buy them at the overpriced bookstores, we denounced and challenged successfully some teachers that insisted in students´compulsory attendance to the lessons in order to get their exams marked, which obviously affected students who had to work, we organised a weekly information leaflet of issues affecting the students and the admin staff, and a monthly students newspaper. We organised the resistance in coordination with all universities in Spain against the goverments plans to move to an "american" and "british" system of student loans, with massive demos and blocking of the main cities´broadways. We also mobilised people against cuts in several departments, which meant that only technical degrees useful for market profits were subsidised by the goverment. In a nutshell, we organised a resistance in the university, without trying to talk to anyone about socialism, communism, or politics. People are not dumb. They saw that as a very desirable state of affairs, it just happened to be named "socialism", but labels and appearances were not important.

Then I left university, and moved to a different country. I couldn´t finish my university degree, for reasons that have nothing to do with what it´s being discussed here. I moved on to organise in the trade unions, as well as cooperating with a political party. I´ve had it up to here with so-called "socialists" telling me that i´m reactionary because my union work towards improvements of working conditions was not questioning the wage system. Well, I have always believed that these "socialists" are very lucky if they don´t have to worry about having a job in three months time, or are happy having to work compulsory overtime at flat rate pay, or living confortably by themselves without having a family to look after. We DO question the wage system, we DO question the capitalist system, but it seems to me, and it looks like that Superborys agrees with me, that lots of "revolutionaries" limit themselves to argue about dialectical materialism and disregard any attemps to fix real and current problems as "reformist". They want revolution now, by means of loudspeaker activity and writing in internet forums about, say, the status of mice in a future communist society, or dreaming about how they would solve all problems if they were in the shoes of Fidel Castro.

I totally understand what you mean about the internet, and the amount of people who seem to enjoy the fact that there is a capitalist enemy to fight, and would be very dissapointed if there was a communist society, as their reason to live, the revolutionary way of life, would dissapear.But don´t despair. There are plenty of things to do. Organise in your city, neighbourhood, street. Think of what you believe will bring justice to the society you live in, put into practice the socialist practices you would like to see happening in the world. Local libraries, newspapers, popular tenants´associations to ensure poor families know their rights and have access to legal representation against their landlords, for example. Defend your town against especulation, against job destruction. There are millions of things you can do, and you don´t need to hold the hammer and sickle banner while you do them. People will then realise that it´s just and needed. Socialism is not a football team to support, or a religion to blindly accept, it means REAL change.

Keep up the good work. You younger generations are the future.

[AK]

Look at all the blocks of text...
http://files.sharenator.com/FUUUU_RE_FFFFFUUUU_Pizza-s508x387-44250.jpg

[Wanted Man]

This kind of thing is very two-sided. On one hand, what the OP says applies to lots of people on Revleft. Some posters on Revleft do give off the idea that Revleft is essentially made up of spammers and trolls (see the post above, for instance).

On the other hand, threads like these also give me the urge to say, "Speak for yourself!" and "Do something about it!" There are plenty of people who post here a lot and are very active. It's just that a lot of people are aware that this is completely irrelevant on Revleft, therefore, they don't really bother exchanging practical experiences as much, at least not in the most frequently visited forums like this Politics one. What's the point when the vast majority of the responses don't add any value?

[AK]

This kind of thing is very two-sided. On one hand, what the OP says applies to lots of people on Revleft. Some posters on Revleft do give off the idea that Revleft is essentially made up of spammers and trolls (see the post above, for instance).

See previous post:

I'm not active IRL, simply for the fact that I have restrictions placed on me by my parents (how stereotypical, the teenage anarchist can't protest because his parents say no) and school commitments (I wouldn't exactly call myself committed to any part of the schooling process, but oh well).

But you're probably right.

[Delenda Carthago]

US citizens:Patiently explaining...Dont be disapointed.Disapointment is the children's dicease of the revolutionary.

[Coggeh]

Well then perhaps I was partially wrong about picketing and peaceful demonstrations not doing much, at least in some parts of the world it seems to help. It just appears that Americans are too absorbed in their routine, in their lifestyle, to care about what the 'crazy people on the corner' are protesting about. I wouldn't be too keen to listen if someone were just shouting phrases at me which denounced my way of life. Perhaps Swedes are more receptive than us.
This is possibly the worst attitude a leftist especially in America can have. The conception that European countries are full of revolutionaries is utter crap. The same thing would happen in Europe. You don't win people over by just protesting outside stores who profit from exploitation(they all do). You get involved in community campaigns build up a base with the local residents, show that your organisation is committed to fighting for their rights and you will receive the support you warrant. By operating separate to the community you are affectively cutting yourself off. Regardless if they agree with you or not they won't show you much real support.

Being in an organisation doesn't mean meetings and fun protests. It means the shitty day in day out work, door to door community paper sales/ petitions. Organizing community meetings, doing stalls/minor protests in city centre on real issues (bail-out, minimum wage, trade union rights which would be especially good for the US, anti-obama stall etc etc) and thats just one week.

Not once in the 5 years I've been an active member of the CWI have I ever thought it be to the one bit fun. the work to product ratio is extremely low and the commitment one needs has to be intense but their is product in the end, whether thats getting more members, getting reps elected forming new branches, winning campaigns etc etc. And with this you must be constantly learning too, theory is nearly as important as activity.

Anyway, Im not putting anyone off being active, people should be encouraged to get active and I do, but be prepared for it, don't go in with an idealistic idea of you being held up in the air leading thousands of people lol.

More and more their seems to be less and less people on this site who are involved with an organisation on the left, and i don't buy most of the excuses on this for it. If your parents are weary of it, do it behind their back say your going out with friends and eventually you can let it out in the light that your in one when your 1 or 2 years older.

If you live to far away from an organisation you really like, sign up regardless, most orgs will send reps from time to time to try and organize other people around you to build a new branch.

If your wondering which org you should join maybe you like 2 or 3, join one, check it out see what its like ask about ideas, arrange a one on one meeting with the rep and see what you like.

[Communist Guy]

Well, I'm just a teenager, so I cant do much.

But I still do my best, on the Internet(like here) and in school 'converting' people.

I agree, most people here seem to be just theorists. However, there are a huge a mount of leftist organizations around the globe spreading the word about communism etc.

[Arlekino]

I found very very hard to spread socialism in Lithuania, the media so brainwashed entire population seems impossible to educate them. Most of even called me crazy and I don't understand world democracy. All media telling such silly and stupid ideas it make me really sick.

[Communist Guy]

I found very very hard to spread socialism in Lithuania, the media so brainwashed entire population seems impossible to educate them. Most of even called me crazy and I don't understand world democracy. All media telling such silly and stupid ideas it make me really sick.

I agree, everyone is brainwashed into thinking communism is evil and anarchism is chaos etc.

Its hard to make people understand.

[superborys]

@McCroskey (no way I'm quoting that wall of text)

Your story is inspirational and fully representative of what I think the left should be, however, as you said, there will be people who disagree with you, and will call you a number of insults, even though you helped advance socialism far more than these purists.

I would do what you have done, but alas I don't live in Memphis as I used to. I moved to Germantown, and while I can get to Memphis, where I live everything is ok. Unemployment, while on the rise, is not yet rampant, people live comfortable, if not secure, lives, and there isn't really anything we hate about here. It's almost like a kind of awe set up here. People here feel like they're in some sort of haven, isolated from the crisis outside the city. Just recently the high school I attend was rated one of the best in the country. A new high school was just built last year, and it's full of new things, and it's supposedly great.

I would lead, or at least help lead, the socialist movement here, but there isn't anything to move toward. People aren't disquieted here enough for anything I do or say to be effective, though I'm sure that will change unless that pseudo-socialist in the White House manages to pull a miracle out of his lying ass.

[Saorsa]

Revleft is not irrelevant. Revleft is not seperate from the real world. You can combine plenty of revolutionary activity away from your keyboard with constructive revolutionary activism on your keyboard.

I try to do both.

[Communist Guy]

Revleft is not irrelevant. Revleft is not seperate from the real world. You can combine plenty of revolutionary activity away from your keyboard with constructive revolutionary activism on your keyboard.

I try to do both.

Thats true, you can do a lot from your computer.

[Hoggy_RS]

I don't understand this "what can i do i'm only a teenager/i live at home" attitude.

Yer parents obviously have way too much control over ye!

[Communist Guy]

I don't understand this "what can i do i'm only a teenager/i live at home" attitude.

Yer parents obviously have way too much control over ye!

how is a tenager going to lead a reveloution??

Be real

[Across The Street]

Look, I lived through the 90's and I never saw any propaganda telling me to fight communism. All of my life I've talked to people about politics and everyone is fed up with how shit is now. I started working at about 14 but of course I did other work before then cleaning up yards, housework, etc. My point is all of us are looking for a solution. Most people know capitalism won't last, but our imaginations just need that extra kick to envision what else is possible. Nearly everyone I've met in my life the topic of politics always comes up, regardless of the phrase 'don't talk about politics or religion'. I'm an anarchist and when I bring this up to other people they aren't surprised, just in need of some clarification on what it is and what it means, and it's not hard to clarify and correct misconceptions. Anyway, when everything reaches the boiling point, people will know what to do, regardless of how much sense and reason you try to talk with them, and imagining that they don't listen.

[Wanted Man]

how is a tenager going to lead a reveloution??

Be real

Nobody is telling you to "lead a revolution". Obviously, there is a lot of room between "doing nothing" and "leading a revolution".

[Quail]

I don't understand this "what can i do i'm only a teenager/i live at home" attitude.

Yer parents obviously have way too much control over ye!

I was thinking that. My parents disapprove greatly of me going to protests, but I either go anyway or lie.

There are loads of things young people can do in the community such as giving out literature. If you live near a city there is likely to be a group of likeminded people that you can get involved with.

[Communist Guy]

And another thing. A teenager has a very developing ideology. You can be a something one day, and something completely different the next.

I think the attitude is understandable. I still try to do as much as I can, but there is a limit to what we can do.

[superborys]

I'm actually glad that you guys have kept this alive without me posing the ideas. I enjoy it when I can observe that I make content that can at least stay alive on its own merit.

Guys, like I said, I used to live in the bubbling cauldron that's Memphis, but I moved. There are a very large number of laws in Germantown that prohibit loitering and the like.

If I were to pass out literature I'd probably be arrested and held in hail for a day or two, and then released to 'teach me a lesson'.

There are multiple reasons that I don't attend protests and other active, real-life things currently, a few being:
1. There are no protests/events in my area to speak of, nor are they present in Memphis. The only socialist political party in Memphis I'm aware of is SPUSA, and I've heard discussion of their 'antics' being less than admirable, but I've also heard from here that they do good work.
2. I respect my parents. I am under no illusion that I raised myself. I didn't. I owe them an enormous debt; they've paid for my food, clothes, transportation, all of it. I have paid probably for less than 5% of the things in my life, if that. The least I can do is give them the respect they deserve and not be blatantly disobedient in their house.

Communist Guy, I think your statement that teenage ideology changes frequently and without much notice. I have a habit of finding out a new field with varying, conflicting perspectives (such as the political left) and then attaching myself to the one I know the most about, and jumping from one point to the other absorbing as much information as I can, and then once I know a rather decent amount of information I begin to think critically and decide which one fits me best. I think currently I would be more of an anarcho-syndicalist or an anarcho-communist, as I have realized and have been told that there's an overlap of great proportions with council communism and anarchism. I actually want anarchism with just permanent structure. I want utter democracy with just a framework to hang the anarchy on, so to speak.

[Wanted Man]

And another thing. A teenager has a very developing ideology. You can be a something one day, and something completely different the next.

I think the attitude is understandable. I still try to do as much as I can, but there is a limit to what we can do.

This still sounds like a bit of a cop-out. I mean, it's understandable when there are restrictions, such as having absolutely zilch activity in your area, or having parents who absolutely forbid you to do anything. If that's the case, then this doesn't apply.

However, I don't understand why some kids here simply refuse to get active for some reason. Of course teenagers' ideologies are developing, but so are those of other people. It is a constant process. Nobody here will ever know 100% or be completely inflexible in practice.

When I became active at 15, I was not even close to fully understanding what the organisation that I literally stumbled upon was all about. I only accepted its basic premises, and I knew that I wanted to be part of it for reasons that seem completely irrational now. Actually learning everything behind it only came later, and even 20 years from now, I still won't somehow be "complete".

The thing about getting active is that it really accelerates everything you're learning now, or at least it should. Being bold is the best thing to do. It just won't do to avoid opportunities to get active because you read somewhere on the internet that the organisation that is working near you is somehow "bad". Why not call them up and find out for yourself? Nobody is demanding you to commit yourself to them for the rest of your life. Given the state of the left in many western countries, they're probably desperate for young people who know what they want.

I'm not saying this to chastise anyone, and I realise that there are not always as many possibilities. It's just that people should stop being so scared. If you're active, you can do something. If you just sit on Revleft hating the world, nobody will mind.

[McCroskey]

@McCroskey (no way I'm quoting that wall of text)

Your story is inspirational and fully representative of what I think the left should be, however, as you said, there will be people who disagree with you, and will call you a number of insults, even though you helped advance socialism far more than these purists.

I would do what you have done, but alas I don't live in Memphis as I used to. I moved to Germantown, and while I can get to Memphis, where I live everything is ok. Unemployment, while on the rise, is not yet rampant, people live comfortable, if not secure, lives, and there isn't really anything we hate about here. It's almost like a kind of awe set up here. People here feel like they're in some sort of haven, isolated from the crisis outside the city. Just recently the high school I attend was rated one of the best in the country. A new high school was just built last year, and it's full of new things, and it's supposedly great.

I would lead, or at least help lead, the socialist movement here, but there isn't anything to move toward. People aren't disquieted here enough for anything I do or say to be effective, though I'm sure that will change unless that pseudo-socialist in the White House manages to pull a miracle out of his lying ass.

Thanks, Superborys. I think there is a lot of aesthetics and mythology around the socialist movement. What we don´t seem to grasp is that the historical moment is not the correct one, say, in the UK or USA, for agitating masses of workers who are deep inside the social practice of capitalism. Signs and slogans are not going to get the message across. The working class in the developed countries, since the post-war years, have been living under the welfare system, which has become their ideal of living standards. We cannot start telling millions of people about planned economy, social responsibility, and common ownership when they have had private property drilled in their minds for decades. Ideas come from the social practice, and in a practice of private enterprise, the average citizen cannot comprehend that rich entrepreneurs looking for profits don´t need to be the only source of wealth and jobs. And if they get a glimpse of the possibility, they are reluctant to change. When they get to a point where they, little by little, realise that those ideas are actually real and achievable, they look towards the organisations that hold these points of view, and what do they see? They see a million different political groups divided on the grounds of historical and ancient disagreements on obscure theories who use strange and alien names (maoists, trotskyts, etc) whose symbols they associate with dark ages long gone. Once these groups are dismissed as not serious or dogmatics, they turn to the only thing they see as capable of representing their interests: parliamentary democracy.

So workers in Europe and USA are not even looking towards groups that seem to hold endless meetings and forums talking about things they don´t understand. They look to groups that are actually involved in organising real activities that can change their conditions in a tangible way. When I was at university, me and another colleague had to propose banning political discussions during our meetings, because we used to spent hours arguing about history, theory, etc, and nothing was being done.

So you cannot organise anything in the place to live, ok, there will be other places where people need involvement because they need to be defended. At your age the world seems probably bigger than it really is. But once you get involved, don´t start looking just for groups with the word "socialist" in their name. Just think of what the problems are and start working with a socialist method. And run away from people who start arguing whose family is more working class or who had the poorest background, they are usually trying to fit in the scene as a cool pose and trying to define their persona through rebellion, not seeking real change.

And remember, it´s not about educating people on socialism, it´s about having the chance of giving a voice to people that need it, and helping them organise, not organising them. People would run away if you start enlightening them about marxism, but if they see marxism in action, with no dogma attached, but real work, then their perception of their social practice starts to get a wider perspective and see other possibilities.

I posted these links in another thread. These people didn´t decide to take action under one political theory, or because socialist education. They became a communist comunity because they were helped to organise by a communist, basing in real problems and real solutions. They just happen to be socialist solutions.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinaleda,_Spain

http://www.marinaleda.com/inicio.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/24/world/europe/24iht-spain.html

The wikipedia reference is in English, as well as the New York Times article. Unfortunately, the Marinaleda council website is in Spanish. There are several documentaries in Youtube, all of them in Spanish, I´m afraid. By the way, to avoid confusion, in the New Yor Times article, when they talk about Mr. Hipolito Aires, a "socialist" councillor, please note that when they say "socialist" they mean that he belongs to the PSOE, the "Spanish Socialist Workers´Party", which is everything but "socialist" and "workers´". It´s the current goverment´s party, the Spanish equivalent to New Labour.



Sorry for the long posts. I get carried away... :)

[Buffalo Souljah]

I get the feeling that most of us here are just theorists, that we aren't really people trying to further it in any quantifiable way, Keep in mind, you have a certain prejudice as far as regqards what it means to be a "theorist" in the first place. What does a revolutionary "theorist" seek? Revolution. So, if the means to engage in collective activity arise, what would keep such a "theorist" from participating in that process? In the meantime, of course, he will work to create the adequate conditions for such activity to arise, by and by. I think you have a skewed understanding of what it means to be a "theorist" of revolution.

[Wanted Man]

I'd say that a real "theorist" would actually do research, make an analysis, develop a theory, etc. On Revleft, we mostly just try out ideas and talk out of our arses. Big difference.

[Ravachol]

Keep in mind, you have a certain prejudice as far as regqards what it means to be a "theorist" in the first place. What does a revolutionary "theorist" seek? Revolution. So, if the means to engage in collective activity arise, what would keep such a "theorist" from participating in that process? In the meantime, of course, he will work to create the adequate conditions for such activity to arise, by and by. I think you have a skewed understanding of what it means to be a "theorist" of revolution.

Theory cannot be developed in a 'bubble' seperate from 'real' activity. The theory-practice dichtomy is not only incorrect, it smothers opportunities with a lot of potential all too often. Theory is self-reflective practice which serves to adjust and re-direct practice, it's a constantly evolving, dynamic process. Aufheben made some pretty good comments regarding this topic... (http://libcom.org/files/Theory%20and%20practice%20-%20recent%20struggles%20in%20Brighton.pdf)