Just an honest question...

[Koba the Other Mugabe]

Awhile back, someone I don't respect in the slightest posted this article on Facebook. Amongst me and my political friends (and I suspect, any normal individual), it drove us into hysterical fits of laughter and many, many days worth of inside jokes. I'm sure many will have read this before, maybe some will even agree with it. But here it is, in all it's glorfy:




Eight Reasons Why Capitalists Want to Sell You Deodorant.

1. Body smells are erotic and sexual. Capitalists don't like that because they are impotent and opposed to all manifestations of sensuality and sexuality. Sexually awakened people are potentially dangerous to capitalists and their rigid, asexual system.

2. Body smells remind us that we are animals. Capitalists don't want us to be reminded of that. Animals are dirty. They eat things off the ground, not out of plastic wrappers. They are openly sexual. They don't wear suits or ties, and they don't get their hair done. They don't show up to work on time.

3. Body smells are unique. Everyone has her own body smell. Capitalists don't like individuality. There are millions of body smells but only a few deodorant smells. Capitalists like that.

4. Some deodorants are harmful. Capitalists like that because they are always looking for new illnesses to cure. Capitalists love to invent new medicines. Medicines make money for them and win them prizes; they also cause new illnesses so capitalists can invent even more new medicines.

5. Deodorants cost you money. Capitalists are especially pleased about that.

6. Deodorants hide the damage that capitalist products cause your body. Eating meat and other chemical-filled foods sold by capitalists makes you smell bad. Wearing pantyhose makes you smell bad. Capitalists don't want you to stop wearing pantyhose or eating meat.

7. Deodorant-users are insecure. Capitalists like insecure people. Insecure people don't start trouble. Insecure people also buy room fresheners, hair conditioners, makeup, and magazines with articles about dieting.

8. Deodorants are unnecessary. Capitalists are very proud of that and they win marketing awards for it.


This appeared by itself in the original link I read, but I believe it may or may not accompany a longer intro essay, which can be found here:


libcom.org/library/cleanliness-godliness-deodorant-crimethinc


My question is, when did anarchism become this?


Now, some of you may be thinking this is just a political jab at anarchists. But I am seriously curious. When did anarchism become essentially what it is today? When did it become about punk-rock, dressing like a dead hobo, eating out of dumpsters, lifestylism, and not showering and using deodorant? Did Bakunin or Kropotkin or Makhno act in any similar fashion?


I have never read anything or even heard anything to pinpoint when the anarchist movement in America even really began, let alone when it became what it is today. Whenever I have asked, all I get is usually links to a history of ideas, as if history is driven by the ideas of dead European men and them alone.


In my mind, I imagine it had to have started with some band that called themselves anarchists, and the fad caught on from there. I have no other way to explain it that makes any sense. How does someone read Bakunin and just decide "Well, I'm never using deodorant again!"? It doesn't.


So, does anyone know what modern-day anarchism is what it is?

[KurtFF8]

This is actually in a CrimeThinc book that made me realize the problems of lifestylism a few years back.

It's a pretty glaring example of the short-comings of such "politics"

As KE just mentioned: this was essentially the dominant trend of "Anarchism" in the US from about 1999 until recently, and I would argue has already reached its limits.

The ISR did an interesting article that at one point goes over this (Although it goes over the entire anarchist movement in the US pretty well too) http://www.isreview.org/issues/72/feat-anarchism.shtml

[Proletarian Ultra]

Meh. The anarchists around me smell pretty bad but they also do some good work with the unions.

I'm inclined to not get too upset about it.

[Ele'ill]

I have back-dreads- go on long adventures through cities and forests with nothing but a backpack and sometimes a bicycle- I have a bone anklet- I eat vegetables and abhor the meat industry- I don't wear deodorant- I get food from dumpsters- listen to blackbird raum- smoke cigarettes and drink 40ozers with friends that have multiple face tats- ride freight trains- busk- and love animals as much as I do humans.

I'm also an anarchist. I'm also an organizer.


The only claim that lifestylism is a method for revolution, is in the strawman insecure leftists create when referring to people who refuse to support various businesses or ideas of cool produced as marketing schemes.

"Oh well your whole lifestyle is a marketing scheme" - No it isn't- it didn't cost me a dollar towards unsavory business practices.




Hooray- another lifestylist thread is born. :lol:

[StoneFrog]

I have back-dreads- go on long adventures through cities and forests with nothing but a backpack and sometimes a bicycle- I have a bone anklet- I eat vegetables and abhor the meat industry- I don't wear deodorant- I get food from dumpsters- listen to blackbird raum- smoke cigarettes and drink 40ozers with friends that have multiple face tats- ride freight trains- busk- and love animals as much as I do humans.

I'm also an anarchist. I'm also an organizer.


The only claim that lifestylism is a method for revolution, is in the strawman insecure leftists create when referring to people who refuse to support various businesses or ideas of cool produced as marketing schemes.

"Oh well your whole lifestyle is a marketing scheme" - No it isn't- it didn't cost me a dollar towards unsavory business practices.




Hooray- another lifestylist thread is born. :lol:

Ah so in a anarchist/communist society these "lifestylists" would actually have to work instead of busk and get food from the dumpster? Because the whole lifestyle seems to be dependent on capitalism, and the throw away lifestyle of others.

[Magón]

My question is, when did anarchism become this?

Well I'm not sure that is Anarchism, because I'm an Anarchist and I use deodorant. So I guess to them, that makes me some kind of twisted bastard, but I think it's the other way around. I'm not sure Anarchism ever really expressed (if ever) the matter of deodorant.

As for their attitude, it sounds like some teenager who's just gushing with Teen Angst or someone who just has something against Deodorant? Whether they're an Anarchist, I don't think it matters because Anarchists are free to think and live as they see fit, no matter who says otherwise. If an Anarchist doesn't want to wear deodorant, fine, just don't be sweaty and have a weeks old smell around me.

Most Anarchists aren't like what you showed. At least by the example you gave, those who could really be claimed as Anarchists are more oriented in the Working Class struggle than who how to combat Capitalism through deodorant.


Now, some of you may be thinking this is just a political jab at anarchists. But I am seriously curious. When did anarchism become essentially what it is today? When did it become about punk-rock, dressing like a dead hobo, eating out of dumpsters, lifestylism, and not showering and using deodorant? Did Bakunin or Kropotkin or Makhno act in any similar fashion?

Well most Punks from the late 70s onward, kinda took a liking to Anarchism. So as they gained liking from the Punk scene, so did those that followed them I guess. I wasn't around in the US to really know, so it's just what I've heard. I'm not sure Anarchism for most real Anarchists, has become about Punk Rock, dressing like a dead hobo, eating from dumpsters, lifestylism, and not showering and using deodorant. I know for one, I don't think to myself each time I wake up, "Oh, guess I should wear my dirty jeans and tattered brown jacket that's got that pee smell." It's probably just someone who claims Anarchism that does something like that. Like I already said, Anarchists are more oriented with Working Class struggle than anything else. Actual Anarchists, in the US, who don't just say it to sound cool or anti-authoritarianist.

I think this person, whoever they are, has done that. Kinda just taken Anarchism as if it was just a word to fling around, and say what they wanted about deodorant, while hiding behind the curtain of Anarchism.


I have never read anything or even heard anything to pinpoint when the anarchist movement in America even really began, let alone when it became what it is today. Whenever I have asked, all I get is usually links to a history of ideas, as if history is driven by the ideas of dead European men and them alone.

I'm not really sure about any major Anarchist Movements in the US, that didn't have something to do with Emma Goldman. Not to say she's the one who started Anarchism in America, but she's obviously the most well known from the US on the matter. Before then, and like it is now, Anarchists were just a very small group of people who shared the same ideas. I'm not sure they had any intention of Revolution or anything, before Emma Goldman, but Anarchists, whether in the US, Europe, South America, Asia, where ever they may be, have always been a small minority group. Only so often as to actually come together for something a large enough of them could support or actually decided to be outspoken about. Like Emma Goldman against WW1, and Women's Rights. Along with the CNT-FAI in Spain during the civil war there, fighting against Fascism.

What Anarchism has become today in America, is kinda hard to define. Anarchists have always been a minority group, and still are. Because like I said already, most who say they're Anarchists probably aren't Anarchists, but say it for the "shock" or "awe" factor that people sometimes have when they hear it. I'm an Anarchist, because I truly think that Anarchism is the best way to have a good meaningful life, and that economically it might not be the most sound (why I'm an Anarcho-Syndicalist/Socialist) it's probably the best, in my eyes, way for people to truly be free and self governing from oppression of a hierarchy or any other form of government that would try to enforce man made laws and regulations on me.

A good source to look into what real Anarchism is in the US anyway, is a woman by the name of Cindy Milstein who's more or less, what she calls and has deemed herself as: Anarcho-Communist. I think you can find some videos of her on YouTube.



In my mind, I imagine it had to have started with some band that called themselves anarchists, and the fad caught on from there. I have no other way to explain it that makes any sense. How does someone read Bakunin and just decide "Well, I'm never using deodorant again!"? It doesn't.


So, does anyone know what modern-day anarchism is what it is?

Well modern-day Anarchism, is really just Anarchism what it was 100 years ago, but obviously evolved and morphed to fit the struggles of today, rather than 50-60-100 years ago. Anarchism nowadays, is obviously to stand up against oppression, states, etc. that are happening now, rather than in the last 100 years. We can't stop Reagan from doing what he did in the 80s, but we can try to stop anyone nowadays that might try and act like him (or anyone else pro-State, etc.) and further cause problems for the Working Class and the ultimate struggle we as Anarchists see.

[Ele'ill]

Ah so in a anarchist/communist society these "lifestylists" would actually have to work instead of busk and get food from the dumpster? Because the whole lifestyle seems to be dependent on capitalism, and the throw away lifestyle of others.


We play bucket drums and banjos for fun- and get paid for it- We're a pretty talented bunch at times. The dumpsters offer free food- why not?

Some of my friends travel- others have jobs- others incorporate the two.

I don't see the problem with living a certain way- I've never met travelin' folk who were claiming to be the answer to Capitalism. It seems as though that would be a lie spread by leftists who still want to be able to pick on people and since these asshole's main focus is 'social justice' they can't pick on just anyone so they use the excuse that 'these bands of lifestylists.....'. etc

I've met a lot of active, good people that were also squatters- travelers- buskers etc..

[Proletarian Ultra]

Some of us authoritarians get bothered by lifestylism because anarchists get more ass.

Srsly. Think about it after a fulfilling night with someone you care about and then see if it bothers you so much. I guarantee you it will not.

[Ele'ill]

Some of us authoritarians get bothered by lifestylism because anarchists get more ass.

Srsly. Think about it after a fulfilling night with someone you care about and then see if it bothers you so much. I guarantee you it will not.


Thanks.























I think...

[Rusty Shackleford]

its fucking deoderant. all societies had some form of scent obscurers.
im honestly blown away that such an article was even written.

[Chimurenga.]

When it comes to Crimethinc, nothing they write surprises me.

[Nuvem]

I hate to inject some orthodox Marxist interpretation of this, not being a Marxist personally, but it seems to me that Anarchist lifestylists are essentially intentional members of the "lumpenproletariat", the ultra-poor, non-productive subsection of the proletariat proper which often resorts to illegal methods of survival such as squatting, theft, and the like.
Taking the egalitarianism of Leftists to an absurd extreme, they willingly subject themselves to baseness and poverty, sometimes out of some ideological drive and more often for a fashionable lifestyle which appeals to their social unit...which just happens to consider itself Anarchist. Their overall contribution to anything really significant is minimal, as they alienate most "regular" people (and bear in mind, those are the hearts and minds we need to succeed) with their gross disregard for social norms and mores. For each one who follows this lifestyle out of some misguided, self-defeating ideological crusade, three just follow suit to fit in and "fight the power".

[Tablo]

Anarchism is entirely about class struggle to me. I wear deodorant cause I don't want to smell like shit. I do my best to dress nice despite the fact I can't afford designer shit because I like fashion. I couldn't care less about animal liberation because I value humans first and foremost and see animal liberation as misdirected energy. Besides, fuck animals we are superior. I am not sure how anarchism turned into this lifestylist punk bs, but I still call myself an anarchist and when I hear the term I immediately connect it to class warfare.

[Ele'ill]

I couldn't care less about animal liberation because I value humans first and foremost and see animal liberation as misdirected energy.

But the liberation of humans (animals) under the same conditions is considered a superior struggle. :rolleyes:





Besides, fuck animals we are superior.

So it's about superiority?




I am not sure how anarchism turned into this lifestylist punk bs, but I still call myself an anarchist and when I hear the term I immediately connect it to class warfare.

I've said this before in other threads but I'll mention it again anyway- There are people that look and live differently than you that are more 'anarchist' than you will ever be.



I think your post was one of the more foolish I've seen...

[fa2991]

I don't think it's fair to consider this article or the Crimethinc. organization to be at all related to anarchism, politics, or the left.

Talking about smelly "anarchist" rich suburban white kids as if they were really anarchists is kinda like talking about "gangsta" rich suburban white kids as if they were really gang members.

They're just a bunch of sorry little children who want to play dress up. Their articles and ideas have no place on RevLeft and only serve to confuse what anarchism really is - kind of like what the RCP does to Marxism.

[fa2991]

When did anarchism become essentially what it is today? When did it become about punk-rock, dressing like a dead hobo, eating out of dumpsters, lifestylism, and not showering and using deodorant?

The 60's, when a bunch of perpetually stoned drop-outs misinterpreted "Walden" and "The Conquest of Bread" as a reaction to their parents and the Vietnam War.

[Ele'ill]

I don't think it's fair to consider this article or the Crimethinc. organization to be at all related to anarchism, politics, or the left.

Talking about smelly "anarchist" rich suburban white kids as if they were really anarchists is kinda like talking about "gangsta" rich suburban white kids as if they were really gang members.

They're just a bunch of sorry little children who want to play dress up. Their articles and ideas have no place on RevLeft and only serve to confuse what anarchism really is - kind of like what the RCP does to Marxism.


I find the idea of anti-authoritarians and leftists declaring what people are or are not- based upon how the person is dressed- or their economic background- extremely untrustworthy and distasteful.


If they're not a big deal, and if they're not a threat, leave them alone.


Otherwise you come across as being an asshole bully.

[Magón]

I find the idea of anti-authoritarians and leftists declaring what people are or are not- based upon how the person is dressed- or their economic background- extremely untrustworthy and distasteful.


If they're not a big deal, and if they're not a threat, leave them alone.


Otherwise you come across as being an asshole bully.

I do agree, but you can't really discount the countless White Suburban American Teen who has money, parents have good high financed jobs, a big Escalade, etc. that make a Bourgeois lifestyle in America, but claim to be an Anarchist. Sure it may sound like I'm being an asshole or bully, but they're the ones who really screw up what Anarchy is for the most part of those who want to learn about it at a young age.

If I was some teen interested in Anarchy, walked up to one of these fake Anarchists, asked them what Anarchy was, they'd probably give me some half-ass, what I could have just thought up myself while thinking kind of answers. They don't help anything, and I'm sure if you took away their stuff, they'd be crying and hating you for doing so. They mainly focus the ideology (any, not just Anarchy) to how their lifestyle is. Kinda like Evangelical Christians with the Bible. "Sure I have a 50 Million dollar four story house, with a twin 30x30 pools, and a whole bunch of other things. But God wanted me to have it, don't you understand? To show people what life can be like, when truly following the word of the Lord and the Bible."

Capitalism says the same thing, and so do these teens who just use it for a word to sound anti-authoritarian, but really, if they were in trouble would go to the first sight of a Cop nearby.

[Ele'ill]

In regards to a comment made once on here that went something like "Yeah you can dress how ever you want but it isn't anarchism" My first thought was what the fuck is this person so terrified of that they would spend 45 minutes in a thread belittling people that dress differently...

It's a perverse xenophobic response from adolescents with a theory fetish.

Had any one of you actually met these people you're so angry at you'd likely make friends with them and realize they have the same exact anarchist beliefs that you do. The difference is while they were traveling the country by freight train from the age of thirteen years old you were attending easter egg hunts and going to church.

:laugh:

[Raúl Duke]

Leave the "lifestylists" alone, they don't really do much harm and even if one thought they do there will always be "lifestylists" and it's a ridiculous idea to consider "dealing" (what is meant by that anyway? You're going to beat them up? Why, what they ever do to you?) with them.

Most lifestylists, I assume, don't pretend that their lifestyle will change the world per se.

Complaining about lifestylists or "doing something about them" will not solve the left's current problems regarding agitating the working class.

[Ele'ill]

I do agree, but you can't really discount the countless White Suburban American Teen who has money, parents have good high financed jobs, a big Escalade, etc. that make a Bourgeois lifestyle in America, but claim to be an Anarchist. Sure it may sound like I'm being an asshole or bully, but they're the ones who really screw up what Anarchy is for the most part of those who want to learn about it at a young age.

I don't like these people- I don't know much about CrimeThinc but I'd have to say these are not the people being talked about.





If I was some teen interested in Anarchy, walked up to one of these fake Anarchists, asked them what Anarchy was, they'd probably give me some half-ass, what I could have just thought up myself while thinking kind of answers. They don't help anything, and I'm sure if you took away their stuff, they'd be crying and hating you for doing so. They mainly focus the ideology (any, not just Anarchy) to how their lifestyle is. Kinda like Evangelical Christians with the Bible. "Sure I have a 50 Million dollar four story house, with a twin 30x30 pools, and a whole bunch of other things. But God wanted me to have it, don't you understand? To show people what life can be like, when truly following the word of the Lord and the Bible."

Capitalism says the same thing, and so do these teens who just use it for a word to sound anti-authoritarian, but really, if they were in trouble would go to the first sight of a Cop nearby.

You and I are not talking about the same people.


Perhaps people are confusing rich white kids for genuine 'wanderers'.

[fa2991]

I find the idea of anti-authoritarians and leftists declaring what people are or are not- based upon how the person is dressed- or their economic background- extremely untrustworthy and distasteful.

There's a difference between disliking that someone intentionally dresses and acts like a hobo (we're all guilty of that at some point, after all :)) and disliking that they think dressing and acting like a hobo will usher in socialism.


If they're not a big deal, and if they're not a threat, leave them alone.

Otherwise you come across as being an asshole bully.I'll just copy what Nin said:


I do agree, but you can't really discount the countless White Suburban American Teen who has money, parents have good high financed jobs, a big Escalade, etc. that make a Bourgeois lifestyle in America, but claim to be an Anarchist. Sure it may sound like I'm being an asshole or bully, but they're the ones who really screw up what Anarchy is for the most part of those who want to learn about it at a young age.

If I was some teen interested in Anarchy, walked up to one of these fake Anarchists, asked them what Anarchy was, they'd probably give me some half-ass, what I could have just thought up myself while thinking kind of answers. They don't help anything, and I'm sure if you took away their stuff, they'd be crying and hating you for doing so. They mainly focus the ideology (any, not just Anarchy) to how their lifestyle is. Kinda like Evangelical Christians with the Bible. "Sure I have a 50 Million dollar four story house, with a twin 30x30 pools, and a whole bunch of other things. But God wanted me to have it, don't you understand? To show people what life can be like, when truly following the word of the Lord and the Bible."

Capitalism says the same thing, and so do these teens who just use it for a word to sound anti-authoritarian, but really, if they were in trouble would go to the first sight of a Cop nearby. I'd co-sign that. He just said it much more politely than I would have. Crimethinc anarchism is a dead weight pulling the whole movement down.


Perhaps people are confusing rich white kids for genuine 'wanderers'. How are "genuine wanderers" preferrable? Christopher McCandless was one hell of a wanderer, but made as much impact for the better as anyone else in his privileged family.


Most lifestylists, I assume, don't pretend that their lifestyle will change the world per se.

Complaining about lifestylists or "doing something about them" will not solve the left's current problems regarding agitating the working class.

I'd argue that they are a serious barrier to anarchism becoming a viable solution in the eyes of the working class.

[Ele'ill]

There's a difference between disliking that someone intentionally dresses and acts like a hobo (we're all guilty of that at some point, after all :)) and disliking that they think dressing and acting like a hobo will usher in socialism.

They likely dress 'like a hobo' because they've been on the road for a very long time- as it's common to run into new travelers that don't appear that way.

Not a single one of them thinks that 'dressing and acting like a hobo will usher in socialism'.

That's complete rubbish.





I'll just copy what Nin said:



I'd co-sign that. He just said it much more politely than I would have. Crimethinc anarchism is a dead weight pulling the whole movement down.

If a bunch of kids dressing like hobos is 'pulling the whole movement down' you might want to reconsider how affective those 'competent' people in the movement actually are- and how competent the movement was to begin with.

Give me a break. :rolleyes:











How are "genuine wanderers" preferrable? Christopher McCandless was one hell of a wanderer, but made as much impact for the better as anyone else in his privileged family.

I'm sure you'd agree that he copied what thousands had done before him. From my experience a lot of the travelin' folk come from extremely shitty backgrounds. It's often the only thing they can do.


None of this makes them non-anarchist- in fact- to say otherwise implies that lifestylism does make an impact on politics.

[Proletarian Ultra]

True story: back in the day, PLP members had to keep their hair short, dress conservatively and swear off dope so as not to alienate the working class. This was a big problem when they took working-class jobs in the 70's. Workers wouldn't talk to them because they looked like narcs.

The working class is a lot more broad-minded about lifestyle than many of us would think.

[Ele'ill]

Without a breach in security culture I'll say that many people have been traveling and living off the grid for a very very long time- and from a young age as well. There are towns and villages in certain places-There are babies born in camps- and there are a lot of things that many of you would consider to be extremely rad. Upon talking to the people there you'd find that they understand- so well- how the world needs to change and they would refute the idea of them being lifestylists- and they would reject the idea that how they live is creating social change. That is how they choose to live- many of them do other things as well- they agitate, educate, demonstrate and so on.

To say they're a bunch of privileged white kids is asinine and insulting- because they are not the people I think you're referring to- but at the same time I see it going that direction.

I don't know a whole lot about CrimeThinc as I already said- perhaps CrimeThinc has hijacked their ideas- maybe not. I'd have to read more of CT's articles.

[this is an invasion]

There's a difference between disliking that someone intentionally dresses and acts like a hobo (we're all guilty of that at some point, after all :)) and disliking that they think dressing and acting like a hobo will usher in socialism.


No one thinks this....

I seriously have yet to meet one "lifestylist" that thinks their lifestyle is inherently revolutionary. Most are just kids that are bored with the whole go to school, get a job, settle down bullshit and decide to do something different with their lives.

[this is an invasion]

And really guys? Really? Ya'll are gonna put all the blame for anarchism having a bad name on CrimeThInc? Talk about generational chauvinism. Anarchism has a bad name since Proudhon. I think the reason anarchism "having a bad name" is more to do with the whole bourgeoisie thing than it does with anything else.

[this is an invasion]

I do agree, but you can't really discount the countless White Suburban American Teen who has money, parents have good high financed jobs, a big Escalade, etc. that make a Bourgeois lifestyle in America, but claim to be an Anarchist. Sure it may sound like I'm being an asshole or bully, but they're the ones who really screw up what Anarchy is for the most part of those who want to learn about it at a young age.

If I was some teen interested in Anarchy, walked up to one of these fake Anarchists, asked them what Anarchy was, they'd probably give me some half-ass, what I could have just thought up myself while thinking kind of answers. They don't help anything, and I'm sure if you took away their stuff, they'd be crying and hating you for doing so. They mainly focus the ideology (any, not just Anarchy) to how their lifestyle is. Kinda like Evangelical Christians with the Bible. "Sure I have a 50 Million dollar four story house, with a twin 30x30 pools, and a whole bunch of other things. But God wanted me to have it, don't you understand? To show people what life can be like, when truly following the word of the Lord and the Bible."

Capitalism says the same thing, and so do these teens who just use it for a word to sound anti-authoritarian, but really, if they were in trouble would go to the first sight of a Cop nearby.

This is a really ridiculous generalization, and quite frankly leads me to believe you have either never met real traveler kids, or you have only met a few.

Yes there are some "rich kids" out there that want to play adventure before returning to their trust funds. But a lot of traveler kids are just regular ass people.

[fa2991]

I don't know a whole lot about CrimeThinc as I already said- perhaps CrimeThinc has hijacked their ideas- maybe not. I'd have to read more of CT's articles.

This may be the problem to begin with. You're talking about the broader culture of drifters who may happen to be political radicals. I'm talking about drifters - the subset of the anarchist movement who are "drifters" for the sake of being political radicals. There is a marked difference, as you have made clear in your lengthy replies.

I'd like to point out that the OP posted a Crimethinc. article. That's what I'm responding to, and I am talking about such buffoonish "anarcho-drifters," not about the alternative subculture you're talking about. Crimethinc kids actually believe and act upon all the stupid shit I've written that you've been misinterpreting as an attack on the broader subculture of people who live in camps or in freight trains or on the road, etc. You would probably have to be familiar with Crimethinc propaganda, actions, and members to know what and whom I'm referring to in my posts, and why I'm so very dismissive of it and them.


True story: back in the day the PLP members had to keep their hair short, dress conservatively and swear off dope so as not to alienate the working class. This was a big problem when they took working-class jobs in the 70's. Workers wouldn't talk to them because they looked like narcs.

:D I've heard of Trotskyists doing that in the 60s. A lot of unfortunate leftists missed out on Woodstock and the Beatles trying to be as bland and inoffensive to the proletariat as possible.

[fa2991]

And really guys? Really? Ya'll are gonna put all the blame for anarchism having a bad name on CrimeThInc? Talk about generational chauvinism. Anarchism has a bad name since Proudhon. I think the reason anarchism "having a bad name" is more to do with the whole bourgeoisie thing than it does with anything else.

Crimethinc is one part of a bigger problem.

See: "Social Anarchism or Lifestlye Anarchism: an Unbridgeable Chasm" (http://libcom.org/library/social-anarchism--lifestyle-anarchism-murray-bookchin)by Murray Bookchin

[Proletarian Ultra]

Crimethinc is one part of a bigger problem.

See: "Social Anarchism or Lifestlye Anarchism: an Unbridgeable Chasm" (http://libcom.org/library/social-anarchism--lifestyle-anarchism-murray-bookchin)by Murray Bookchin

The more I learn about Bookchin, the less convincing that article gets.

[fa2991]

The more I learn about Bookchin, the less convincing that article gets.

Is that in reference to his own occasional lifestylist leanings?

[Ele'ill]

This may be the problem to begin with. You're talking about the broader culture of drifters who may happen to be political radicals. I'm talking about drifters - the subset of the anarchist movement who are "drifters" for the sake of being political radicals. There is a marked difference, as you have made clear in your lengthy replies.

I'd like to point out that the OP posted a Crimethinc. article. That's what I'm responding to, and I am talking about such buffoonish "anarcho-drifters," not about the alternative subculture you're talking about. Crimethinc kids actually believe and act upon all the stupid shit I've written that you've been misinterpreting as an attack on the broader subculture of people who live in camps or in freight trains or on the road, etc. You would probably have to be familiar with Crimethinc propaganda, actions, and members to know what and whom I'm referring to in my posts, and why I'm so very dismissive of it and them.


I know of CrimeThinc, I know of their propaganda- I've read various communiques and essays and zine type stuff. I was simply seperating myself- and what I was talking about from them- in order to clarify what exactly was being attacked.

Who cares if kids want to be drifters? I think it's pretty cool. :thumbup1:



I'll read that article you just posted later.

[Proletarian Ultra]

Is that in reference to his own occasional lifestylist leanings?

No, it's in reference to social ecology. I mean, it hasn't exactly sent workers to the barricades, either.

[fa2991]

No, it's in reference to social ecology. I mean, it hasn't exactly sent workers to the barricades, either.

Well, at least social ecology has helped highlight the previously ignored issue of capitalism's disastrous environmental impact. That's been key to helping many people see the light.

[this is an invasion]

Crimethinc is one part of a bigger problem.

See: "Social Anarchism or Lifestlye Anarchism: an Unbridgeable Chasm" (http://libcom.org/library/social-anarchism--lifestyle-anarchism-murray-bookchin)by Murray Bookchin

bookchin is to anarchism what hilary clinton is to anarchism

[Magón]

This is a really ridiculous generalization, and quite frankly leads me to believe you have either never met real traveler kids, or you have only met a few.

Yes there are some "rich kids" out there that want to play adventure before returning to their trust funds. But a lot of traveler kids are just regular ass people.

It's not ridiculous at all. They are ridiculous, but my observation that seems generalized is not. I'm pinpointing a certain group of people who happen to be Caucasian White, Suburbanites, Rich Parents, and find that during their Teenage years with angst running through them, that Anarchy is the way to go. Some actually become what could be considered a REAL Anarchist, and others just stop acting as Anarchists and do go back to their money. It's not a generalization all of Suburbia, I'm talking about a specific group who happen to be the majority (or minority in some cases,) in White Suburbia.

And just to make things clear, I was a traveling kid. I still travel to some places, for months at a time when I build up the money. I don't think anyone wants a life story here, but ever since my years in Mexico growing up, I've traveled from various countries and villages/towns across Mexico, Venezuela, and Cuba. All of which had no trace of these Rich Kids with trust funds, acting adventurous explorer. (Especially Cuba.) All those who I met, were genuine travelers, just like myself when I was older and traveled to those places time and again. I'm not sure you've actually met real "traveler kids"?

[Ele'ill]

It's not ridiculous at all. They are ridiculous, but my observation that seems generalized is not. I'm pinpointing a certain group of people who happen to be Caucasian White, Suburbanites, Rich Parents, and find that during their Teenage years with angst running through them, that Anarchy is the way to go. Some actually become what could be considered a REAL Anarchist, and others just stop acting as Anarchists and do go back to their money. It's not a generalization all of Suburbia, I'm talking about a specific group who happen to be the majority (or minority in some cases,) in White Suburbia.

And just to make things clear, I was a traveling kid. I still travel to some places, for months at a time when I build up the money. I don't think anyone wants a life story here, but ever since my years in Mexico growing up, I've traveled from various countries and villages/towns across Mexico, Venezuela, and Cuba. All of which had no trace of these Rich Kids with trust funds, acting adventurous explorer. (Especially Cuba.) All those who I met, were genuine travelers, just like myself when I was older and traveled to those places time and again. I'm not sure you've actually met real "traveler kids"?

STP


I know of a lot of people that are genuine whom like aspects of CrimeThinc's 'productions'. The manner in which this thread was started and routed was in a way that didn't just include 'rich white kid minorities with trust funds that dress like hobos'- it was very much an attack against a very broad demographic.

With that said- I'd like to point out that I haven't met many- if any- rich white kids that dressed like traveler kids. Most of the traveler kids (and adults) look that way because they've been riding in a grainer or on a gon for eight hours- you simply do not see this trend amongst hipsters.

I know of people in the PNW that dress 'edgy' or 'different' for lack of better words but they go to school and travel in their free time. Never the less there is a difference.


Again- this conversation was never about rich white kids- that was a strawman used to describe anarchists or other anti-authoritarians that dress differently and live differently.

My question is- If the same percentage of them are organizing as is the 'regular' anarchist demographic or marxist demographic what's the fucking issue?

The issue is that they look and live differently- anybody trying to control that can fuck off.

[Animal Farm Pig]

A lot of these "lifestylists" sound like bums to me. Not working, not having a place of residence, dumpster diving, busking, wandering around, not using deodorant...

How do they intend to organize workplaces when they don't work? How can they organize neighborhoods when they have no roots? How are they going to organize anyone when nobody wants to come near due to smelliness and the possibility that they're gonna try to bum some cigarettes or change off you?

It's probably a personal prejudice, but the whole damn thing seems like an excuse to do little productive and feel superior.

By, the way, David Rovics has a good song about these folk:
Tx18x_uiA2A

[fa2991]

Tx18x_uiA2A

"I don't eat meat
I just live on moldy chives
Or the donuts that I found
In last week's dumpster dives
Look at you people in that restaurant
I think you are so sad
When you coulda been eating bagels
Like the ones that I just had"

:laugh::thumbup1:

[Ele'ill]

How do they intend to organize workplaces when they don't work?

They have worked- many end up working in various jobs- dishwashers- landscaping- they just prefer the road.

I'd make the point that right now- at least in the United States- anarchist organizing in the work place isn't. There is none. It's not the 'lifestylist's' fault- that's the fault of people using fail tactics.




How can they organize neighborhoods when they have no roots?

I view the homeless and temporary transients as part of my community because they are. They often know things about the community that the average blue collar workers do not. It's a street view and it's valuable. To say they don't have 'roots' is incorrect.






How are they going to organize anyone when nobody wants to come near due to smelliness and the possibility that they're gonna try to bum some cigarettes or change off you?

Most travelers adhere to a stricter etiquette than most 'regular normal working non traveling' people. Maybe they don't want to organize when they're traveling- but instead want to organize when they settle at a camp.

The possibilities are endless and this shouldn't even be a discussion.



It's probably a personal prejudice, but the whole damn thing seems like an excuse to do little productive and feel superior.

The fact that you're accusing them of feeling superior despite everyone who is or has been a traveler telling you that it isn't like that- sort of comes off as if your own superiority complex has taken over.







By, the way, David Rovics has a good song about these folk:
Tx18x_uiA2A

Please. :rolleyes:








The bottom line here is that people are trying to say 'if you're an anarchist then you have to prove yourself to us by doing this this and this' when they themselves have also done- fuck all- for movement.

Anarchism is a set of beliefs- If I go walk in a park right now I'm still an anarchist- if I go to a pub and drink I'm still an anarchist- If I go ride my bicycle across the country- I am still an anarchist.

Stop attacking people's personal life choices- it's extremely authoritarian and dickishly judgmental. Just knock it off.



So it's ok to assume the lifestyle of a song writer performer- to wear a hat and give off those self-vibes, in order to critique people who are supposedly 'lifestylists'.


I want to propose that various issues start being addressed by posters presenting rebuttals- otherwise this thread becomes trollish. There are a few people that have quite a few questions to answer.

[fa2991]

I'd make the point that right now- at least in the United States- anarchist organizing in the work place isn't. There is none.

That's not entirely true.

http://www.starbucksunion.org/

[Os Cangaceiros]

I have back-dreads- go on long adventures through cities and forests with nothing but a backpack and sometimes a bicycle- I have a bone anklet- I eat vegetables and abhor the meat industry- I don't wear deodorant- I get food from dumpsters- listen to blackbird raum- smoke cigarettes and drink 40ozers with friends that have multiple face tats- ride freight trains- busk- and love animals as much as I do humans.

I'm also an anarchist. I'm also an organizer.


The only claim that lifestylism is a method for revolution, is in the strawman insecure leftists create when referring to people who refuse to support various businesses or ideas of cool produced as marketing schemes.

"Oh well your whole lifestyle is a marketing scheme" - No it isn't- it didn't cost me a dollar towards unsavory business practices.




Hooray- another lifestylist thread is born. :lol:

I don't have dreads or tattoos, have never dumpster-dived or rode on freight trains. I also wear deodorant (humans have actually tried to create various deodorant substances since the Babylonian era...it's not an evil capitalist creation, Crimethinc. The only thing that's different is capitalist marketing techniques.) I've also killed a lot of animals. A LOT of animals.

WHY CAN'T EVERYBODY BE LIKE ME!?!? :mad:

Just kidding. I like diversity.

[Ele'ill]

That's not entirely true.

http://www.starbucksunion.org/


Sorry, but it's pretty close to it.

[Ele'ill]

I don't have dreads or tattoos, have never dumpster-dived or rode on freight trains. I also wear deodorant (humans have actually tried to create various deodorant substances since the Babylonian era...it's not an evil capitalist creation, Crimethinc. The only thing that's different is capitalist marketing techniques.) I've also killed a lot of animals. A LOT of animals.

WHY CAN'T EVERYBODY BE LIKE ME!?!? :mad:

Just kidding. I like diversity.


You do realize that nobody has said that you have to be like them?

I don't know if I should thank your post or engage in debate- is the "I like diversity" a sleight?

[Os Cangaceiros]

You do realize that nobody has said that you have to be like them?

I don't know if I should thank your post or engage in debate- is the "I like diversity" a sleight?

No.

"Lifestylists" don't really bother me. They do their thing, I do my thing. The world continues to turn.

[Ele'ill]

No.

"Lifestylists" don't really bother me. They do their thing, I do my thing. The world continues to turn.

No to which part?


Sometimes, you probably both do the same things.

Solidarity forever! Solidarity forever!....


kYiKdJoSsb8

[Os Cangaceiros]

No to which part?


The part concerning what I said about liking diversity being a slight.

[Qayin]

People who would rather see the world, be in nature, and live adventurously because the idea of school,work,and home puts them off isn't a fucking threat.

My close friend left recently and became a drifter, I believe he is in Cali by now. He is as much a revolutionary as any of us, but refuses to live in the Society of the Spectacle and be a cog in the machine.

Fuck sweat fetishism

[Soviet dude]

I don't have dreads or tattoos, have never dumpster-dived or rode on freight trains. I also wear deodorant (humans have actually tried to create various deodorant substances since the Babylonian era...it's not an evil capitalist creation, Crimethinc. The only thing that's different is capitalist marketing techniques.) I've also killed a lot of animals. A LOT of animals.

WHY CAN'T EVERYBODY BE LIKE ME!?!? :mad:

Just kidding. I like diversity.

Do you participate in any fashion with any anarchist group? Generally, my experience is the only people who claim they don't fit the stereotype is because they are completely isolated from the anarchist movement as a whole. They are generally young people who have little practical experience with the Left, or much of anything else.

Because if you don't fit the stereotype, you will be ostracized and basically not allowed to participate in an anarchist group in any meaningful way.

[bricolage]

Ok I’m just speaking from the perspective of living in the UK here (which I would imagine is pretty similar to the perspective of living in the US - seeing as these two countries seem to be the only ones ‘lifestylists’ are ever brought up in regards to though maybe this is quite fitting).

'Lifestylism' (if such a thing can even be said to exist) is an irrelevance. People like to think it's not because it means they can blame it for their failures; 'oh we'd have revolution now if it weren't for those damn lifestylists turning people off communism!'. Sorry to break it for you but there are bigger factors than that... like the complete detachment of revolutionary politics from most working class people, and the complete historical and present failure of all left attempts to challenge capitalism.

And people aren't turned away from anarchism/communism/marxism because they think its just kids delving through bins and growing dreads it's because they either disagree with the politics of it completely or have never even heard of it in the first place. And I would add I'd imagine more people are wary of communism because they associate it solely with Stalinist repression and all that goes with it than because they associate it 'lifestylists' (not that the way people on here go about it helps that in any way but hey getting shit wrong has never stopped the 'left'...)

[Across The Street]

The first article that was linked pretty much nailed it when it was mentioned that you're unlikely to find two people who even agree on what anarchism is, including two anarchists. Great article, answered some of my questions.

[synthesis]

No one thinks this....

I seriously have yet to meet one "lifestylist" that thinks their lifestyle is inherently revolutionary.

Hippies do that all the fucking time, in my experience. I was at a hippie-ass wedding the other day, and I seriously heard some guy use "revolutionary" in the same sentence as "composting toilet."

Of course, the line isn't exactly clearly drawn. I think the principal difference is that one is primarily urban and the other is rural, but I could be wrong.

[Amphictyonis]

Not participating in this immoral system is noble. It reminds me of some of the early socialists and it's all well and good so long as organizing and revolution are on the mind. The "lifstylists" I cant stand are the fashion hounds who know fuck all of anarchism while being consumed with social scenes.

[La Comédie Noire]

Some anarchists smell funky, besides that they have great ideas.

[AK]

Why did someone necro this obscure thread?

[ContrarianLemming]

Awhile back, someone I don't respect in the slightest posted this article on Facebook. Amongst me and my political friends (and I suspect, any normal individual), it drove us into hysterical fits of laughter and many, many days worth of inside jokes. I'm sure many will have read this before, maybe some will even agree with it. But here it is, in all it's glorfy:




This appeared by itself in the original link I read, but I believe it may or may not accompany a longer intro essay, which can be found here:


libcom.org/library/cleanliness-godliness-deodorant-crimethinc


My question is, when did anarchism become this?


Now, some of you may be thinking this is just a political jab at anarchists. But I am seriously curious. When did anarchism become essentially what it is today? When did it become about punk-rock, dressing like a dead hobo, eating out of dumpsters, lifestylism, and not showering and using deodorant? Did Bakunin or Kropotkin or Makhno act in any similar fashion?


I have never read anything or even heard anything to pinpoint when the anarchist movement in America even really began, let alone when it became what it is today. Whenever I have asked, all I get is usually links to a history of ideas, as if history is driven by the ideas of dead European men and them alone.


In my mind, I imagine it had to have started with some band that called themselves anarchists, and the fad caught on from there. I have no other way to explain it that makes any sense. How does someone read Bakunin and just decide "Well, I'm never using deodorant again!"? It doesn't.


So, does anyone know what modern-day anarchism is what it is?

One article doesn't convince of anything and I am not going to be taken into this "anarchists are a bunch of lifestylists now" fad that Bookchin started.

[ContrarianLemming]

fuck this thread is old, who the fuck...

[synthesis]

That was me. I don't know how it happened. My bad.