Tony Benn calls for active resistance to savage public spending cuts.

[Hit The North]

Veteran democratic socialist, Tony Benn, has called for "ordinary people" to actively resist the "government of millionaires" campaign of savage public spending cuts:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/aug/04/tony-benn-coalition-cuts-campaign

[welshexile1963]

Good old Tony we could have done with a few more like him in The Labour Party!

[The Vegan Marxist]

I loved watching Tony Benn speak out on what he feels is the need-to-know truth openly to everybody who watches him. I quite enjoyed when he put John Bolton in his seat during an open-debate meeting on the war [occupation] in Iraq.

[Red Commissar]

All around Europe there are moves to dismantle social services and ultimately the once-prized welfare states. To me this represents a failure on behalf of the social democrats to think it could withstand conditions in capitalism.

What Benn is doing is admirable even with his political inclinations in mind, and hopefully people of the UK won't be too numb to these changes coated as attempts to work towards solving a debt.

What are the socialist groups doing in the midst of all this?

[RadioRaheem84]

If there was a serious effort to dismantle the many provisions embedded in the welfare state, would there be a huge outcry from the working classes in the EU?

[Devrim]

Veteran democratic socialist, Tony Benn,


Good old Tony we could have done with a few more like him in The Labour Party!


I loved watching Tony Benn speak out on what he feels is the need-to-know truth openly to everybody who watches him. I quite enjoyed when he put John Bolton in his seat during an open-debate meeting on the war [occupation] in Iraq.

The sort of 'democratic socialist' who organised to use troops against the power workers strikes when he was a minister.

I am not sure who 'could have done with a few more like him in The Labour Party'. The bosses maybe?

Devrim

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

^ At least people aren't talking about sacking NHS nurses being a good thing or I don't know, British politicians standing in parliament, or what about George Galloway dividing Tower into Bengali and English, oh and on the flipside, queen victoria being a goddess.

Yes, I must say, this site scares me a little bit when it comes to British politics; most people seem to have very reactionary opinions.

[RebelDog]

Tony Benn aside, a national campaign against the cuts is essential.

[The Vegan Marxist]

The sort of 'democratic socialist' who organised to use troops against the power workers strikes when he was a minister.

I am not sure who 'could have done with a few more like him in The Labour Party'. The bosses maybe?

Devrim

I would agree when it comes to when he was Minister, though you seem to only cherry-pick certain times of his long-lasting voice within the labor movement. By the end of the 1970's, he ended up going towards the left-wing side of the labor movement, in which he states that this transition was because of his personal experiences as Minister:


As a minister, I experienced the power of industrialists and bankers to get their way by use of the crudest form of economic pressure, even blackmail, against a Labour Government. Compared to this, the pressure brought to bear in industrial disputes is minuscule. This power was revealed even more clearly in 1976 when the IMF secured cuts in our public expenditure. These lessons led me to the conclusion that the UK is only superficially governed by MPs and the voters who elect them. Parliamentary democracy is, in truth, little more than a means of securing a periodical change in the management team, which is then allowed to preside over a system that remains in essence intact. If the British people were ever to ask themselves what power they truly enjoyed under our political system they would be amazed to discover how little it is, and some new Chartist agitation might be born and might quickly gather momentum.

This can be found in "Out of the Wilderness: Diaries, 1963-67 (http://www.amazon.com/Out-Wilderness-Diaries-Tony-Benn/dp/0099586703)" on page xiii.

So it really doesn't matter where he stood at one time as Minister, for it's completely irrelevant to where he stands today.

[Devrim]

So it really doesn't matter where he stood at one time as Minister, for it's completely irrelevant to where he stands today.

Where he stands now is as a member of an imperialist, racist, anti-working class party, which has been in government and attacking workers for the last thirteen years, not to mention the people that it has murdered in its imperial adventures abroad.

By the way ,how do you square your support with armed movements in the so-called 'third world' with support for the left wing of the Labour party in the UK?

Devrim

[Red Commissar]

I would have really liked to've seen a socialist or communist movement latch on to the sentiment, but the most I've seen in way of this is the usual statement/declarations.

The worst thing that can happen is to have this sentiment coopted by the opposition party, much like the Democrats did in the United States.

[Serge's Fist]

It is just a mini-version of the SWP's 'Right to Work' campaign, the likes of Benn and Caroline Lucas will sign these statements whether written by the Counterfire, the SWP or the Church of England. The conference it is calling is in direct competition with the National Shop Stewards Network and Right to Work who will all be saying the same thing within weeks of each other.

Politically the statement is weak and vague, anyone from the Labour Party going leftwards could sign it. It is as useful as the People's Charter, a list of trade union demands with little or no focus on class struggle.

[Hit The North]

Originally posted by Serge's Fist
It is just a mini-version of the SWP's 'Right to Work' campaign, the likes of Benn and Caroline Lucas will sign these statements whether written by the Counterfire, the SWP or the Church of England...


Yes, I notice it contains signatories who are also signatories of the Hands Off the People of Iran campaign group which you link to in your signature. So you might want to add the CPGB to your list, alongside the Church of England.


Politically the statement is weak and vague, anyone from the Labour Party going leftwards could sign it. It is as useful as the People's Charter, a list of trade union demands with little or no focus on class struggle.

At this point, a broad-based affiliation which includes social democrats, trade union bureaucrats and soft-lefts is not necessarily a bad thing. The resistance against the bosses cuts will nevertheless remain still-born until workers themselves begin to resist. At that point we can call on the worthy signatories to back up their rhetoric with something more substantial or allow them to discredit themselves in the minds of the most militant workers.

[Queercommie Girl]

Bob,

Are you a Trotskyist based in the UK?

[bricolage]

The sort of 'democratic socialist' who organised to use troops against the power workers strikes when he was a minister.

When did this happen?

[Red Commissar]

When did this happen?

He's referring to his stint as the Minister of Energy during the Labor government in the late 1970s. At some point then there was a strike in a nuclear power plant led to the him ordering a police intervention against the stirkers (whether it was wildcat or union, I can't say), arguing that there was a security concern (something along the lines of having to continue operating the plant to prevent a meltdown or something stupid like that). This was part of the "Winter of Discontent" which contributed significantly to the Labour government's defeat at the general election and the victory of conservatives led by Thatcher.

How that changes the context of what he is doing now over 30 years after the fact I can't quite say. At any rate Benn is at best a democratic socialist, but considering his reputation it's probably expected he would lead a drive such as the one the op mentioned. Is it something the real socialists can get behind? That's up to the guys in the UK, but preferably they should be leading one of their own, not follow bourgeoisie drives. But of course that's far easier said than done...

At any rate ignoring this aspect, the spending cuts in the UK present a serious problem that we all should be looking at.

[Serge's Fist]

Yes, I notice it contains signatories who are also signatories of the Hands Off the People of Iran campaign group which you link to in your signature. So you might want to add the CPGB to your list, alongside the Church of England.

I would add HOPI to a list of organisations that people like Lucas will always sign up to, I don't think we could get Tony Benn to back the CPGB's draft programme though ;)


At this point, a broad-based affiliation which includes social democrats, trade union bureaucrats and soft-lefts is not necessarily a bad thing. The resistance against the bosses cuts will nevertheless remain still-born until workers themselves begin to resist. At that point we can call on the worthy signatories to back up their rhetoric with something more substantial or allow them to discredit themselves in the minds of the most militant workers.

I never said it is a bad thing to get trade unionists, socialists and local anti-cuts campaign into one place to discuss united action. But is this going to do that? No, it will be a conference comparable to the the ones happening within weeks of the Counterfire one, with the same bunch of lefties with the same trade union leaders saying the same disengenuous rhetoric.

[Devrim]

At this point, a broad-based affiliation which includes social democrats, trade union bureaucrats and soft-lefts is not necessarily a bad thing. The resistance against the bosses cuts will nevertheless remain still-born until workers themselves begin to resist. At that point we can call on the worthy signatories to back up their rhetoric with something more substantial or allow them to discredit themselves in the minds of the most militant workers.

I think that this misses the point. It is not that struggle will be 'still born' without the activity of workers, but that there will be no struggle without the activity of workers.

Nor does 'calling on the worthy signatories to back up their rhetoric with something more substantial' have much to offer. There is nothing 'substantial' that they can back it up with.

Nor does it 'allow them to discredit themselves'. Rather the whole approach builds illusions in these type of people.

Devrim

[Hit The North]

I think that this misses the point. It is not that struggle will be 'still born' without the activity of workers, but that there will be no struggle without the activity of workers.


A semantic difference.


Nor does 'calling on the worthy signatories to back up their rhetoric with something more substantial' have much to offer. There is nothing 'substantial' that they can back it up with.

Nor does it 'allow them to discredit themselves'. Rather the whole approach builds illusions in these type of people.


Except that the call is for "ordinary people" to mount "active resistance" to the cuts. It is not, therefore, an appeal to a top-down solution in the form of "we the signatories will do it for you." So at the most the illusion is that these individuals have the influence to start the ball rolling.

In the UK when all the mainstream parties agree that the workers will have to pay for the bosses crisis and the only disagreement is the time-scale for this, then this it is a welcome, if small, step forward for a publicly visible call for some alternative - particularly one which is based on a call for "active resistance".

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I support the intent of Tony Benn's statement, it's just a shame that it sems as though it will not turn into something which has mass support within the left and the Unions or left-Labour MPs.

[Devrim]

A semantic difference.

Normally, I would say it was. Here though I imagine that we see it very differently. I suspect that you see these sort of calls as a part of any struggle that may develop. I don't.


Except that the call is for "ordinary people" to mount "active resistance" to the cuts. It is not, therefore, an appeal to a top-down solution in the form of "we the signatories will do it for you." So at the most the illusion is that these individuals have the influence to start the ball rolling.

An illusion that you seem happy perpetuating. Struggle against attacks on working conditions and wages can only be class based, not based upon public pronouncements of bourgeois MPs and trade union General Secretaries, who almost certainly if people on the ground were organising action, would be there to call it off and if necessary condemn it, alongside a few leftist intellectuals.



In the UK when all the mainstream parties agree that the workers will have to pay for the bosses crisis and the only disagreement is the time-scale for this, then this it is a welcome, if small, step forward for a publicly visible call for some alternative - particularly one which is based on a call for "active resistance".

If anything it creates illusions, nothing more.

Devrim

[Hit The North]

Normally, I would say it was. Here though I imagine that we see it very differently. I suspect that you see these sort of calls as a part of any struggle that may develop. I don't.


Imagine what you like. The fact is that it takes two to struggle and the Con-Dem government' s austerity package signals that the struggle has begun, at least as far as our class enemies are concerned. So far, the battle lines have been drawn and now we wait for the first fusillade from the enemy to strike. Until the cuts hit and the public sector attempts to enforce redundancies we have no way of knowing what depth the resistance will have.

It's clear that resistance is already happening in small pockets but this needs deepening and generalising. This initiative is merely a small articulation of that. It would be disingenuous of you to suggest I've argued for a greater significance to it.

An illusion that you seem happy perpetuating.Why, because I posted news of this report? That doesn't endorse anything! Really, my intention was to inform only.


Struggle against attacks on working conditions and wages can only be class based, not based upon public pronouncements of bourgeois MPs and trade union General Secretaries, who almost certainly if people on the ground were organising action, would be there to call it off and if necessary condemn it, alongside a few leftist intellectuals.

Well put and true. Although I think a number of those signatories would remain supporters of resistance when it finally catches its breath. Obviously, that might not amount to much: Extemporised Kitchen-sink Theatre Against the Cuts with Mike Leigh, anyone?

Perhaps I need to be chastised for my cheerful but unwarranted optimism.

Anyway, for those who remain interested (and I think it is at least interesting), here is a link to the so-called Coalition of Resistance: http://coalitionofresistance.wordpress.com/

[bailey_187]

yo is there a demo tomorow in london? i think i heard this somewhere

[Devrim]

It's clear that resistance is already happening in small pockets but this needs deepening and generalising. This initiative is merely a small articulation of that.

If people are already struggling against these cuts surely it would be better to publicise that rather than this statement. This statement is not an articulation of struggle though, even a small one. At best it is merely diversionary. At worst it provides a left cover for union leaders who will later be involved in calling off strikes and actively sabotaging them.


It would be disingenuous of you to suggest I've argued for a greater significance to it.

I think that you are pushing this as if it is a part of a workers' struggle. It isn't.


Perhaps I need to be chastised for my cheerful but unwarranted optimism.

It is not about optimism. It is about realising what class struggle is and what it isn't.

[Hit The North]

I think that you are pushing this as if it is a part of a workers' struggle. It isn't.


If that was the case, I would have placed it in the Worker Struggles forum, so "think" again. Still, feel free to quote where I argue this.


It is not about optimism. It is about realising what class struggle is and what it isn't.


No shit. :glare: