State and a safe guard.

[StoneFrog]

Is there any theorists whom have talked about actions to prevent the state becoming too powerful, and making sure the people are able to dismantle the state when the time is right?
I know most Marxists don't talk much beyond the revolution and early stages of the state, and just say when the time is right the state will wither away. But to me this is too much an idealistic principle to just put all our faith into the state.

[Paulappaul]

What State? I presume you think the dictatorship of the proletariat to be a State?

[Volcanicity]

Is there any theorists whom have talked about actions to prevent the state becoming too powerful, and making sure the people are able to dismantle the state when the time is right?
I know most Marxists don't talk much beyond the revolution and early stages of the state, and just say when the time is right the state will wither away. But to me this is too much an idealistic principle to just put all our faith into the state.
We dont talk about the early stages of the state because we want to abolish the state,not build another.:confused:

[StoneFrog]

We dont talk about the early stages of the state because we want to abolish the state,not build another.:confused:

Yes, but to think that the state will just disappear without measures to safe guard so the people can dismantle it, i don't think that’s very logical. I mean, if you are to use a state you need precautions to prevent it from becoming a tool against the people, it needs to be better accountable.

Most people whom look to the state as a way to transition form capitalism to communism, often fail to realize that the state can prevent the transition as much has help it. The communists have a label now of being with a totalitarian state, this is something that has to be addressed to move forward. I was hoping someone has already talked about safe guarding the peoples control over the state. It should be addressed before we get to the stage in which we need the state.

Yes i have only recently started to see the state as some use for the proletariat, but there are issues i still feel haven't been addressed by those of whom support it.

[ComradeOm]

I know most Marxists don't talk much beyond the revolution and early stages of the state, and just say when the time is right the state will wither away. But to me this is too much an idealistic principle to just put all our faith into the state.We don't put our faith in the state; we put it in the revolutionary proletariat. Marxism is one of the few theories that doesn't ascribe supernatural powers to the state. We don't believe it acts independently of its class base and we don't believe that it automatically corrupts all it touches. Hence the relative lack of concern as to specific safeguards for a distant future


Most people whom look to the state as a way to transition form capitalism to communism, often fail to realize that the state can prevent the transition as much has help itHow? How can a state that is based on a revolutionary and class conscious proletariat suddenly turn against its support base and hinder its advancement?

In any case, what safeguards do you recommend? What solutions do you have that are not dependent on the democratic nature of the socialist state?

[StoneFrog]

How? How can a state that is based on a revolutionary and class conscious proletariat suddenly turn against its support base and hinder its advancement?

To me this is something that is heavily influenced by tendency outlook. Some will say if there is a revolution based on class conscious proletariat there is no need for a state, and i assume you have reason for the state. If i did try and answer your question, i'd more than likely be attacking straw men that don't relate to your tendency. So without being of the same tendency i don't see how i can answer this adequately for you.

But i would like to hear your view on the relationship in the transition phase between the proletariat and state. I know you've in the past said "It is not some independent body floating over the rest of society."
How is the state structured in your view?




In any case, what safeguards do you recommend? What solutions do you have that are not dependent on the democratic nature of the socialist state?

When i come up with a solid solution I’ll tell you, but this is the reason i made this thread to see if there was someone else who has already written about this.

[Volcanicity]

The state and revolution by lenin.

[StoneFrog]

The state and revolution by lenin.

It doesn't talk much on this subject, it merely repeats Engels in saying it withers away.

[ComradeOm]

It doesn't talk much on this subject, it merely repeats Engels in saying it withers away.Read the rest of it. S&R lays out the standard Marxist position on the state - product of class divisions, organ of the ruling class, obsolete in classless society, etc - and generally emphasises that the state cannot be removed or considered separately from the wider class society. Lenin's arguments were aimed at German Social Democrats (with their 'superstitious belief in the state') but also be applied to anarchist positions