LGB transphobia

[Queercommie Girl]

I think recently I've been detracted somewhat from my main purpose here on RevLeft due to a series of rather unfortunate events, so now I will concentrate more on the primary issues that interest me politically.

Of course, I am a serious socialist and I am intensely concerned with worker's struggles, especially the situation in China. I'm also very interested in the serious struggle for LGBT rights.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the phenomena of LGB transphobia, namely the existence of transphobic attitudes within the LGBT community. Why do you think LGB transphobia exists? Is it possible to do a general class analysis of this social phenomena? How do you think people can fight against LGB transphobia?

I think part of the reason lies with the fact that some gay people, particularly middle-class gays, wish to integrate more with the straight "hetero-normative" population so that they can opportunistically rise up in the straight hetero-normative-dominated power structure and for them trans people and those who "dare" to challenge genderal norms are frankly somewhat of an "embarassment". Another factor is that some insecure gay people don't like the association of LGBT/Queer people with "unmanliness" which they think male-to-female trans people seem to propagate. There are also LGB feminists like Julie Bindel who think that male-to-female trans-sexuals are reactionary with respect to the feminist movement in general, since they think these trans people represent a kind of "reactionary manifestation" of feminine sexuality. Objectively female transphobes in the LGBT community don't do as much harm as male transphobes, which can be explained by the higher position men hold in the power structure of the world overall. Also, being influenced by old-style feminism myself, I don't think the concerns of people like Bindel are totally unfounded, but obviously it is in principle wrong for people like her to reject transgenderism intrinsically in general.

Any feedback is welcome, but particularly from those who consider themselves to be LGBT/Queer in some way.

Personally as I said before, I am also very concerned with the status of LGBT political activism in the Third World. Frankly, many socialists in countries like China do not support LGBT politics, and frankly this is not something that is easily changed. I don't like the complacent attitude of some LGBT socialists in the West who take things for granted. Every "human right" we have now is there because someone fought for it, nothing falls from the sky. I'm sorry if sometimes I might seem overly suspicious regarding the potential existence of homophobia and transphobia within the left camp itself, but I hope people can really understand and empathise with me here. I come from a political background where it is not in any way taken for granted that leftist people are somehow "automatically" pro-queer.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I think recently I've been detracted somewhat from my main purpose here on RevLeft due to a series of rather unfortunate events, so now I will concentrate more on the primary issues that interest me politically.
Oh fun...


Of course, I am a serious socialist and I am intensely concerned with worker's struggles, especially the situation in China. I'm also very interested in the serious struggle for LGBT rights.I am a tranarchist.


The purpose of this thread is to discuss the phenomena of LGB transphobia, namely the existence of transphobic attitudes within the LGBT community. Why do you think LGB transphobia exists? Is it possible to do a general class analysis of this social phenomena? How do you think people can fight against LGB transphobia?I know what I know about LGB transphobia from personal experience. It is a factor that LGB transphobia varies place to place. From what I've noticed, Cis-lesbians in Milwaukee are pretty trans-friendly but in Chicago there are more cis lesbians that don't like us. In Milwaukee I've noticed some gay men that are not trans friendly, and in Chicago when I snapped on a lesbian couple for calling me a man it was a gay man who was basically like "right on sister!"

I obviously go to more in Milwaukee as I live here.



I think part of the reason lies with the fact that some gay people, particularly middle-class gays, wish to integrate more with the straight "hetero-normative" population so that they can opportunistically rise up in the straight hetero-normative-dominated power structure and for them trans people and those who "dare" to challenge genderal norms are frankly somewhat of an "embarassment". Another factor is that some insecure gay people don't like the association of LGBT/Queer people with "unmanliness" which they think male-to-female trans people seem to propagate.The transphobic gay men, are transphobic f or different reasons. Some make offensive remarks that Transsexuals are just gay men in dresses (which is really weird when said to a lesbian MtF) But I was called "gay boy" by a guy who was hitting on me and I was about ready to start throwing things at him yelling "I'm a woman you asshole" but instead told him that his welcome is no longer at my place and kicking him out. I'm not a good ***** to piss off.


There are also LGB feminists like Julie Bindel who think that male-to-female trans-sexuals are reactionary with respect to the feminist movement in general, since they think these trans people represent a kind of "reactionary manifestation" of feminine sexuality.Really? because I have many friends here within the trans community in Milwaukee with many different "kinds" of "manifestations" of female sexuality. can that many different "kinds" be so "reactionary"?


Objectively female transphobes in the LGBT community don't do as much harm as male transphobes, which can be explained by the higher position men hold in the power structure of the world overall.If someone with more arm strength decks you in the face, is that any more malintentioned than someone with less arm strength doing the same thing.

The two types are both manifestations of the same shit. The only difference is that under the current power structure one has more ability to push their transphobia. Same shit different asshole.


Also, being influenced by old-style feminism myself, I don't think the concerns of people like Bindel are totally unfounded, but obviously it is in principle wrong for people like her to reject transgenderism intrinsically in general.How are the concerns not totally unfounded? Also, what gives GG's more of a right to womanhood than a Transsexual woman like me?




Any feedback is welcome, but particularly from those who consider themselves to be LGBT/Queer in some way.Well you now have a response from a 'B', 'T' and Queer in one!
You are very welcome!


Personally as I said before, I am also very concerned with the status of LGBT political activism in the Third World. Frankly, many socialists in countries like China do not support LGBT politics, and frankly this is not something that is easily changed. I don't like the complacent attitude of some LGBT socialists in the West who take things for granted. Every "human right" we have now is there because someone fought for it, nothing falls from the sky. I'm sorry if sometimes I might seem overly suspicious regarding the potential existence of homophobia and transphobia within the left camp itself, but I hope people can really understand and empathise with me here. I come from a political background where it is not in any way taken for granted that leftist people are somehow "automatically" pro-queer.The Authoritarian left doesn't have a very good history on LGBTQI(O/P)(GQ) [alphabet soup] issues. That is a fact

[Blackscare]

LGBTQI(O/P)(GQ)

Shit I was president of my GSA and went to all the NYC pride parades through HS, never seen the acronym get that long! :D

We sexual minorities sure love our acronyms.

[Queercommie Girl]

Shit I was president of my GSA and went to all the NYC pride parades through HS, never seen the acronym get that long! :D

We sexual minorities sure love our acronyms.

Which is one reason why just shortening it to "queer" might be a good idea.

[Invincible Summer]

The Authoritarian left doesn't have a very good history on LGBTQI(O/P)(GQ) [alphabet soup] issues. That is a fact

You forgot "2S" for Two-Spirited

[Queercommie Girl]

How are the concerns not totally unfounded? Also, what gives GG's more of a right to womanhood than a Transsexual woman like me?


The idea is that certain forms of femininity are somewhat reactionary (e.g. that of the female prostitute) because they propagate a negative and reactionary image of women in general.

This I think is true to some extent, and people like Julie Bindel certainly would not apply a "double standard" here, because she would equally reject the same kind of manifested femininity among cis-women.

However, Bindel is transphobic in the sense that she doesn't recognise the intrinsic genuine-ness of transgenderism, and that the stereotypical idea that trans-women tend to propagate these negative images of women more is not really correct, and often not due to the actual choices of trans-women.

[Queercommie Girl]

The transphobic gay men, are transphobic f or different reasons. Some make offensive remarks that Transsexuals are just gay men in dresses (which is really weird when said to a lesbian MtF) But I was called "gay boy" by a guy who was hitting on me and I was about ready to start throwing things at him yelling "I'm a woman you asshole" but instead told him that his welcome is no longer at my place and kicking him out. I'm not a good ***** to piss off.


Well being genderqueer/female myself I have the flexibility to date both ends. :cool:

[theblackmask]

I know what I know about LGB transphobia from personal experience. It is a factor that LGB transphobia varies place to place. From what I've noticed, Cis-lesbians in Milwaukee are pretty trans-friendly but in Chicago there are more cis lesbians that don't like us. In Milwaukee I've noticed some gay men that are not trans friendly, and in Chicago when I snapped on a lesbian couple for calling me a man it was a gay man who was basically like "right on sister!"

I obviously go to more in Milwaukee as I live here.

Yeah, Chicago and the surrounding burbs seem to have a bit of a problem with this. There was some action opposing a local nightclub changing its ID rules last year, though, and I really hope to see more of it.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I have a transgender friend (m to f, presenting as female) who was sexually assaulted in a gay bar in a small town in New Hampshire. A gay man and a lesbian lifted my friend up, pinned her to a wall, pulled down her trousers to see what was there, and when they found what they were looking for they gave it a good yank. This was very traumatic to my friend.

There is some fear or resentment against m to fs from some lesbians. At a "club accepting diversity" I used to go to the establishment (after a long campaign from some lesbian patrons) banned some of the bathrooms to pre-op m to fs. For a long time there were very aggressive looking "bathroom police", women who would spend 4 or 5 hours every evening sitting in front of the lady's room to make sure trannies did not use it.

I found out later this behavior was a reaction to a small number of hetero cross-dressers, who, drunk and in a state of CD induced sexual excitement, would aggressively hit on lesbian women while in the bathroom.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I used to live in Boston. As strange as this may sound, much of the "mainstream" transgender community and/or organizations has a large far right wing element. At an informal get together at what used to be the main TG hangout the main topic of conversation was how much everyone hated George Bush. Okay, so far so good, but the reason they hated Bush is because he was too much of a wimp; he didn't want to nuke Iran. This group of people were mostly M to F transsexuals. I'm not making this up.

A large number of trannies are right wing libertarians. I dropped out of the Boston TG scene before the Tea Party movement started but I have no doubt these people are enthusiastic supporters.

There is a large element of racism, classism , and even homophobia in the "official" TG community. People give up male and cisgender privilege but they don't want to give up white or class privilege This is changing and younger people are ignoring and bypassing the older organizations.

Boston, BTW, is a horrible place to be transgendered and not have a car. Bostonians may be among the most intolerant in the US. I've been to New York, Minneapolis, Seattle, as well as many cities in Europe and a few in Asia. No place comes close to the intolerance and bigotry of Boston

[Queercommie Girl]

I have a transgender friend (m to f, presenting as female) who was sexually assaulted in a gay bar in a small town in New Hampshire. A gay man and a lesbian lifted my friend up, pinned her to a wall, pulled down her trousers to see what was there, and when they found what they were looking for they gave it a good yank. This was very traumatic to my friend.

There is some fear or resentment against m to fs from some lesbians. At a "club accepting diversity" I used to go to the establishment (after a long campaign from some lesbian patrons) banned some of the bathrooms to pre-op m to fs. For a long time there were very aggressive looking "bathroom police", women who would spend 4 or 5 hours every evening sitting in front of the lady's room to make sure trannies did not use it.

I found out later this behavior was a reaction to a small number of hetero cross-dressers, who, drunk and in a state of CD induced sexual excitement, would aggressively hit on lesbian women while in the bathroom.

Wow I think that kind of thing is probably more likely to happen in the US than in the UK actually.

In China transphobia is probably more common - unless one is really high profile like Jin Xing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Xing

But serious crimes like murder are significantly less frequent. This is largely due to the fact that serious crimes like murder, rape and pedophilia are less common in general in East Asian countries.

However, in China the biggest problem is that it is really difficult to make your own family and friends accept you, never mind society at large. Again, this is somewhat different if you are extremely successful. The Chinese have a very meritocratic culture based on success-worship, we can accept any kind of "weirdness" provided that it is accompanied by power and wealth.

Also, in China unlike in the UK there are no anti-discrimination laws for LGBT people. One might argue that in the West the anti-discrimination laws (especially for transgendered people) are largely ineffective, but it's better than nothing certainly. Recently someone who murdered a trans-woman here in the UK was sentenced by the court:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10237293

Maybe it's not the right word, but I do have more "sympathies" for female transphobia against MtFs than male transphobia against MtFs. Virtually all of the serious crimes against transgendered people, such as murder and rape, are conducted by males. And although female transphobes can be just as prejudiced, in some cases there is a bit of justification for their concerns, like you mentioned about the drunk CDs in the lesbian toilets. I don't like trans people who don't take any responsibility for being a woman when they are in their female form or whatever.

What do you think is the best way to tackle this kind of issues?

[Queercommie Girl]

I used to live in Boston. As strange as this may sound, much of the "mainstream" transgender community and/or organizations has a large far right wing element. At an informal get together at what used to be the main TG hangout the main topic of conversation was how much everyone hated George Bush. Okay, so far so good, but the reason they hated Bush is because he was too much of a wimp; he didn't want to nuke Iran. This group of people were mostly M to F transsexuals. I'm not making this up.

A large number of trannies are right wing libertarians. I dropped out of the Boston TG scene before the Tea Party movement started but I have no doubt these people are enthusiastic supporters.

There is a large element of racism, classism , and even homophobia in the "official" TG community. People give up male and cisgender privilege but they don't want to give up white or class privilege This is changing and younger people are ignoring and bypassing the older organizations.

Boston, BTW, is a horrible place to be transgendered and not have a car. Bostonians may be among the most intolerant in the US. I've been to New York, Minneapolis, Seattle, as well as many cities in Europe and a few in Asia. No place comes close to the intolerance and bigotry of Boston

Yes I mentioned LGB transphobia here but actually there is also trans homophobia, for instance in countries like Iran where actually the government pays for transgendered people to have SRS but homosexuals are punishable by death. Of course this is not such a great example as the severe discrimination against homosexuals in Iran isn't something that's endorsed or promoted by trans people, but by the government.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I truely am baffled by transphobia on the part of LGB community members.Seriously have these people forgotten the way in which the have been treated? Not to mention the fact that many on the right still make it their life purpose to treat homosexuals like second class citizens-so it's not as if life for gay individuals is 100% better.

As a proud queer (Gay) man,I firmly believe that we all need to make each other feel welcomed and accepted.Only then can we fight together for our rights.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I used to live in Boston. As strange as this may sound, much of the "mainstream" transgender community and/or organizations has a large far right wing element. At an informal get together at what used to be the main TG hangout the main topic of conversation was how much everyone hated George Bush. Okay, so far so good, but the reason they hated Bush is because he was too much of a wimp; he didn't want to nuke Iran. This group of people were mostly M to F transsexuals. I'm not making this up.

A large number of trannies are right wing libertarians. I dropped out of the Boston TG scene before the Tea Party movement started but I have no doubt these people are enthusiastic supporters.

I've had similar experiences as well, with the prevalence of far-right ideas. ;c

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

You forgot "2S" for Two-Spirited

yes. Sorry I have a bad memory.:blushing:

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

The idea is that certain forms of femininity are somewhat reactionary (e.g. that of the female prostitute) because they propagate a negative and reactionary image of women in general.
Not all transwomen are prostitutes, plenty of ciswomen are. Saying prostitutes are reactionary is actually extremely fucked up as seeing that prostitution is often survival sex. Pimps are reactionary, it could be argued johns are too but prostitutes are often victims of circumstance.



This I think is true to some extent, and people like Julie Bindel certainly would not apply a "double standard" here, because she would equally reject the same kind of manifested femininity among cis-women.
But it is still idiotic to say that transwomen all do that. And she is classist and bourgeois.


However, Bindel is transphobic in the sense that she doesn't recognise the intrinsic genuine-ness of transgenderism, and that the stereotypical idea that trans-women tend to propagate these negative images of women more is not really correct, and often not due to the actual choices of trans-women.
She is just full of shit.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Well being genderqueer/female myself I have the flexibility to date both ends. :cool:

I identify as a woman, if someone were to hit on me as a man I would turn them down. I pass pretty well, so that doesn't happen much these days.

[Il Medico]

As for transphobia from the L and the G, the attitude I hear most is that "trans people are queers who are just trying to get around being gay." or other such similar nonsense. As for the B, I can really see no conceivable reason for such, besides of course feeling that trans people threaten their concept of gender and such. But yeah, the fact that LGB transphobia even exist is an absolute disgrace.

As for acronyms, I say to hell with them! (they are a pain to say/remember and I usually resort to just saying queer anyways.)

[Adi Shankara]

I am a tranarchist.

The trendy terms...what will they think of next? heterofascist? homosocialist?


lol, don't worry, I'm only teasing you :P

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

The trendy terms...what will they think of next? heterofascist? homosocialist?


lol, don't worry, I'm only teasing you :P

A ciscapitalist... :rolleyes:

[Blackscare]

As for acronyms, I say to hell with them! (they are a pain to say/remember and I usually resort to just saying queer anyways.)


I just go with fag :D