Are we slowly regressing back to the 19th century?

[Hexen]

Recently, has anyone noticed that we're actually regressing back to the 19th century/Victorian era in terms of the corporations having so much power, the lack of worker unions, the existence of child labor and exploitation, and now I'm hearing about people having much longer work hours....

Well for those who studied history can anyone find similar traits that were around during the 19th century that are happening (or making a comeback) today in the 21st century?

[Rusty Shackleford]

there is one major difference between the 19th century and the 20th century. Industrialists were the ones who ruled but now it is the finance capitalists. it will be different but there are some similarities.

After labor was crushed in the 80s and productive capital was moved out of the country unproductive financial institutions have taken over as the way to produce economic growth. Unless productive capital somehow makes its way back into the US, it will not look similar to the 19th century.

[Buffalo Souljah]

go on...

[ComradeOm]

No. History does not move in convenient cycles. Even if it did, 'regressing' back to the 19th C would imply that capitalism had returned to its dynamic and expansive youth. This is when everything around us points to the increasing stagnation and decay of the capitalist system

[RebelDog]

I think we are just seeing the negative social effects which are driven by the ruthlessness of markets and the power of corporations. The liberalisation of markets and economies in the 'developing countries' has made it easier for the corporations to exploit child workers to a sickening degree. The capitalists and their institutions are controlling the world to suit their needs. What we are seeing is the enormous social costs of the criminal policies inmposed by their institutions, (IMF, World Bank, etc). I'm sure you could find similariites throughout all of the history of class society if you looked. The powerful have the means and control to impose child labour, long hours, low wages etc, so they do so as its in their interests. This has often devestating effects on the wider population and the world in general but that is for others to worry about.

[tellyontellyon]

Since the end of the USSR the Capitalists have been more brazen in their attacks on the working class.
Even though there were real problems with the top-down bureaucratic system in the Soviet Union, it wasn't capitalist; it had a form of a planned economy that offered an alternative to capitalism.
The capitalists have made less concessions since the fall of a super-power that could have potentially been able to offer economic/military support to revolutionary movements were it to still exist.
At the moment a triumphant capitalism is clawing back any reforms that were won by the working class (so much for reformism!)...
... however, this unrestrained capitalism is now digging it's own grave even more quickly by making quite a mess of ordinary peoples lives.

[ContrarianLemming]

[QUOTE]Recently, has anyone noticed that we're actually regressing back to the 19th century/Victorian era in terms of the corporations having so much power, the lack of worker unions, the existence of child labor and exploitation, and now I'm hearing about people having much longer work hours.... none of this is true, corporations were extremely weak in the 19th century, they were powerless, corporations became powerful in the 80's.
Workers rights have also been only improving to a great extant, child labour has also been lessened to a massive degree

no one else spot this? the premise is false

[BLACKPLATES]

yes, we are.

[the last donut of the night]

No, we are not "regressing" to the 19th century. History does not work that way, as other users have said. What we are seeing is the decay of the capitalist system around us. Humanity has two choices in 2010: socialism or savagery.

[Foreigner]

My first response, looking at the OP question, was a resounding "obvious yes." But then, some excellent points were made -- the alignment of different forces within capital, the relative importance of the corporate form, the near-universality of human oppression in most recorded history, and the relative "maturity," as it were, of capitalism in those ages. And these are true, and reflect heavily upon the answer in a more literal point.

But I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, what the OP is really asking is whether we (likely meaning working Americans) are losing ground in the class struggle -- losing the gains that were made in the 20th century, such that we're reverting to a point of vulnerability and relative power of capital to ruthlessly exploit, here, that was last seen at the turn of the century.

And I think that is what most of us who, from the American point of view, are probably thinking when we immediately say "yes!" We're thinking about the loss of very specific legal concessions within the capitalist framework that were founded on an implicit power gained by the implicit threat and/or fears of popular revolution or unrest in that period.

And, as the post before mine points out, it is an incomplete analysis. But yeah, the history is rhyming. (As in the truism, the source of which I can't remember, that history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes.) Or at least that's the impression I've got.

[RebelDog]

As I said above you can look through all of the history of human class society and find similarites with today, because all these situations rely on the ruling class exploiting labour in some form and this can produce the same outcomes such as poverty, low wages, child labour, tyranny, war etc. I wonder what effect rolling back the welfare state will have on todays population. There was no welfare state in the 19th century.


No, we are not "regressing" to the 19th century. History does not work that way, as other users have said. What we are seeing is the decay of the capitalist system around us. Humanity has two choices in 2010: socialism or savagery.

Marx thought capitalism was in decay in the 19th century.

[Magón]

Well besides the Amish, I haven't seen anyone taking a Horse-n-Buggie on the highway. (Seriously, they do that stuff, and they almost get killed doing it!) As for just social and economic standards, no.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Well on foreigner's point of lost gains for labor we did lose the Employees Free Choice(we never had it, but we lost the chance to have it) act which would have made union organizing much easier.

That coupled with the destruction of labor in the 80s like i said has caused the american proletariat to be in an incredibly weakened state.


this is a new situation were finance capitalism is stubbing its toe everywhere and imperialism is on the verge of being defeated in afghanistan.

in the 1800s, financial capital was growing, and imperialism was going strong. capitalism was growing. now it is decaying.

[ComradeOm]

Marx thought capitalism was in decay in the 19th century.If he did, and I don't recall reading that before, then he was wrong. I may well be wrong when I say that capitalism today is decaying. Either way, for the purpose of this thread, the important point is that 19th C capitalism and 20th C capitalism are two very different beasts and one is not 'regressing' into the other

[japagow1]

Western Europe doesn't stuff its small children up chimneys anymore but children die of starvation, serial rape, and malnutrition in 21st century Britain.

The problems still exist and the Spectacle has no way of disguising it.

[Zanthorus]

Marx thought capitalism was in decay in the 19th century.

At the risk of being branded an "academic" by the ICC, Marx never had a theory of the "decay" of capitalism comparable to the modern theories held by Trots and such about the "epoch of imperialist decay". The idea of a strict periodisation between two kinds of capitalism, one "ascendent" and "progressive" and the other "decadent" was brought in by the second international. It is true that he held to a theory of the increasing accumulation of misery under capitalism and it is true that capitalism, but there's no strict objective line of demarcation as to when capitalism is or isn't "in decay".

[ContrarianLemming]

[QUOTE]none of this is true, corporations were extremely weak in the 19th century, they were powerless, corporations became powerful in the 80's.
Workers rights have also been only improving to a great extant, child labour has also been lessened to a massive degree

no one else spot this? the premise is false

I can't amphasize this enough, I don't mean to be so blunt but stop giving stupid answers, this is rediculious and demonstratably false if you get your head out of "common perceptions" and have a look at some statistics which show the opposite is the case.

[RadioRaheem84]

I can see why people think we're regressing. I mean even mainstream economists say that the income disparity in this country is closer to the early 1900s than the even the 1960s.

It just means we're losing the class struggle. But the system is running out of steam unlike back then when the system changed face.

[Foreigner]

[QUOTE=ContrarianLemming;1821594]

I can't amphasize this enough, I don't mean to be so blunt but stop giving stupid answers, this is rediculious and demonstratably false if you get your head out of "common perceptions" and have a look at some statistics which show the opposite is the case.

No, I don't see it. At all.

I don't see how the strengthening of the corporate form within the framework of capital, or any of the arguments thus far made, somehow indicate that capital's power over American society as a whole has lessened, with worker's rights/progress/concessions increasing relative to it. Which is what your argument seems to imply.

But you do notice that -- well, I'll just speak for myself -- I and anyone else in the same mindset are recognizing the specific framework of the question, and at the same time recognizing it as a very incomplete and flawed framing of the overall world question? But within its limited sphere, it's a valid observation: the American working class and its liberal allies of convenience sold their souls to capital for the New Deal concessions, and these concessions have been under constant attack, and are virtually withdrawn. In that sense, it is most definitely regress. But in other senses, yes, this continuum itself exists in such a changed landscape (both globally and locally to the U.S.) that this more traditional analysis of it fails to hold much water.

But, it seems to me, it's how your average educated liberal/nonradical/politically-coming-of-age American, in the course of radicalizing and freeing herself from the traditional narrative, is likely to interrogate the issue at first. I know there was a stage at which the question was poignant to me, and, ironically, I just had this exact question brought up by another parent at my child's school during casual conversation.



Well besides the Amish, I haven't seen anyone taking a Horse-n-Buggie on the highway. (Seriously, they do that stuff, and they almost get killed doing it!)

Lancaster supermarkets even have parking for them. I have to confess, though, they're pretty fucking annoying to get stuck behind on a one-lane road.

[28350]

Time, as far as I have observed, doesn't work that way.

[durhamleft]

The anti trade union laws in the UK are going to mean wildcat strike action is the only way to resist the ConDem cuts

[stella2010]

Recently, has anyone noticed that we're actually regressing back to the 19th century/Victorian era in terms of the corporations having so much power, the lack of worker unions, the existence of child labor and exploitation, and now I'm hearing about people having much longer work hours....

Well for those who studied history can anyone find similar traits that were around during the 19th century that are happening (or making a comeback) today in the 21st century?


Yes we HEXEN

We are more "inept".

[ComradeOm]

Time, as far as I have observed, doesn't work that way.God, I wish it did at times :)

[Rusty Shackleford]

so it looks like some companies are actually bringing productive capital back into the US. just heard about it on NPR.

[Raúl Duke]

so it looks like some companies are actually bringing productive capital back into the US. just heard about it on NPR.
I think this is happening in some industries and not in others plus the change of landscape, these re-established industries will probably not have unions when they're started yet during the past before they were dismantled they were probably unionized.

For example, I remembering reading that when it comes to book printing/publishing it's now a better idea to get books (for the US, etc) market printed in the US instead of in China due to rising costs in China (for that particular industry, although as a whole perhaps China is increasing in cost).

[Rusty Shackleford]

one of the industries mentioned was Ford. the UAW will be all over that hopefully.

ah here we go. something from USA today.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2010-08-06-manufacturing04_CV_N.htm

Faced with rising costs, General Electric (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Organizations/Companies/Manufacturing,+Construction/General+Electric) is moving production of its new energy-efficient water heater halfway around the world. The country it's leaving? China (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Countries/China). The one it's bringing 400 jobs and a newly renovated factory? The United States (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Countries/United+States).
A small but growing band of U.S. manufacturers — including giants such as General Electric (GE) (http://stocks.usatoday.com/custom/usatoday-com/html-quote.asp?symb=ge), NCR (NCR) (http://stocks.usatoday.com/custom/usatoday-com/html-quote.asp?symb=ncr) and Caterpillar (CAT) (http://stocks.usatoday.com/custom/usatoday-com/html-quote.asp?symb=cat)— are turning the seemingly inexorable offshoring movement on its head, bringing some production to the U.S. from far-flung locations such as China. Others that were buying components overseas are switching to U.S. suppliers.
Ford Motor said Wednesday that it's bringing nearly 2,000 jobs to its U.S. plants by 2012 from suppliers, including those in Japan (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Countries/Japan), Mexico (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Countries/Mexico) and India (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Countries/India).
Experts say the initiatives could moderate job losses that have dramatically shrunk the U.S. manufacturing industry. "I think we're going to start to see a slowing of lost jobs, and we'll see some jobs coming back," says Simon Ellis, an analyst for IDC Manufacturing Insights. "At some point, it will balance out, and we'll reach an equilibrium."
There are myriad reasons for the shifts, often called "onshoring" or "reshoring." Chinese wages and shipping costs have risen sharply in the past few years while U.S. salaries have stayed flat, or in some cases, fallen in the recession. Meanwhile, U.S. manufacturers have been frustrated by the sometimes poor quality of goods made by foreign contractors, theft of their intellectual property and long product-delivery cycles that make them less responsive to customer demand.

WHERE ARE THE JOBS? Latest forecast for 384 metro areas and all 50 states (http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2009-02-06-new-jobs-growth-graphic_N.htm)
RECOVERY WATCH: Tracking the economy; index shows slowing growth (http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/economic-outlook.htm)
Several cite the drawbacks of tying up valuable capital in huge overseas shipments, and want to bring assembly closer to engineers, suppliers and customers, concerns that mounted as makers slashed costs in the downturn. Others are simply weary of midnight phone calls — and multiple annual trips — to Asia.
"A lot of companies who have gone there to take advantage of cheap labor are starting to tell us that if you (calculate) total ... cost and don't just look at wages, it's actually not worth it," says Jeremy Leonard, consultant for Manufacturers Alliance/MAPI, an industry-funded research group.
To be sure, examples of companies moving production to the U.S. are dwarfed by the many more still shuttering U.S. plants and moving to China, India or elsewhere. No one tracks such data, but one glaring, if imprecise, barometer is the U.S. trade deficit, which hit an 18-month high of $42.3 billion in May.
Onshoring "is a trickle; it's not a flood," says Scott Paul, executive director of the Alliance for American Manufacturing, a trade group. "There's still more going out than coming in."
Products that are labor-intensive and churned out in high volumes, such as apparel, textiles and TVs, will likely continue to be made overseas. So will those that are relatively inexpensive to ship but high-priced, such as laptops and cellphones, Ellis says. Goods are increasingly being made near customers, a trend that's driving U.S. makers to build factories in fast-growing China.
Still, says Jim Campbell, CEO of GE's appliance unit: "The biggest difference is the U.S. is in the game now."
Rethinking options
In a June survey by MFG.com, 21% of North American manufacturers said they'd brought production into, or closer to, the continent in the past three months, up from 12% in the first quarter; 38% planned to research such a move in the next three months.
"More companies are looking at their options," says Sean Correll, senior director of consulting firm Emptoris.
He says most of his firm's clients, which include 250 of the Fortune 1,000, are weighing onshoring, up from a handful 18 months ago.
Meanwhile, many U.S. makers that were planning to move abroad are rethinking their strategies, says Craig Giffi, vice chairman of consulting firm Deloitte (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Organizations/Companies/Banking,+Financial,+Insurance,+Law/Deloitte+Touche+Tohmatsu).
For decades, offshoring has dominated, driven by Chinese factory wages that were a tenth of U.S. pay. Imports make up about a third of all goods purchased in the USA, up from 10% in the early 1970s, according to the National Association of Manufacturers (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/National+Association+of+Manufacturers).
U.S. manufacturing employment, after peaking at 19.4 million in 1978, is 11.6 million, though automation also contributed to sizable job losses. More than 2 million factory jobs were cut in the recession alone. Yet, the U.S. still had 21% of global manufacturing in 2008, more than any other nation.
The tide may be easing, if not quite turning. Wages for Chinese factory workers, bolstered by recent strikes, have jumped 15% a year the past decade, Ellis says, but they're still a fraction of U.S. pay. Shipping costs are up about 71% the past four years as a result of higher oil prices and cutbacks in ships and containers in the slump, says IHS Global Insight (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Organizations/International+Agencies,+Alliances,+Cartels/Global+Insight).
With the cost gap between the U.S. and other countries narrowing for other expenses, such as class-action lawsuits, making products in the USA is now about 22% higher than the average of nine of its largest trading partners, down from 32% in 2006, according to a study by Leonard.
For GE, the increase in foreign costs tipped scales already shifting to the U.S. for certain products. The industrial giant announced last year that it will move assembly of its energy-efficient water heater from Chinese contractors to its own factory in Louisville in 2011. The company took advantage of a 2005 labor contract under which employees at the new plant in Louisville will be paid an average of $13 an hour, down from $22 prior to the agreement.
GE also got state and local tax credits of $25 million over 10 years, and federal incentives that encourage the manufacture of energy-saving products.
At the same time, the year-old water heater is a high-tech, high-growth model — it can delay heating if electric rates are high — and "something we would like to control," Campbell says. "We don't want to just park that with another company to build. When you have it in your plant, the cycle time (is) faster, and you can do launches quicker."
For example, he says, making the device in Louisville already has allowed engineers to work closely with production managers and assembly-line workers to perfect the product's design via prototypes. The approach has helped the company eliminate redundant parts and trim per-unit costs by $20.
By contrast, he says, with the heater made in China, "You ship it abroad, guys make it, and if there's a problem, it's not going to be fixed initially." The company, he says, also worries that China's recent decision to let its currency rise against the dollar will "drive our costs up."
GE plans to make other advanced products in the U.S., noting a 30% Chinese cost advantage likely has tilted to roughly a 6% U.S. edge when figuring lower inventory expenses and fewer delivery snafus.
Within five years, he says, GE plans to move a "significant piece" of overseas appliance production to the U.S., creating hundreds more jobs.
NCR was similarly motivated by a more nuanced view of costs when it decided to move manufacturing of ATMs sold in the U.S. from China, India and Hungary to a new 260-employee plant in Columbus, Ga., last October. The ATMs scan checks, providing an image receipt, and let customers put cash and checks into them without an envelope.
Besides uniting engineers with assembly-line workers, NCR wanted designers to be close to suppliers, customers and universities that quickly trained employees, says Peter Dorsman, head of global operations. Large bank customers, he says, came up with the idea for the ATMs.
"You're including suppliers and customers in the design activity so when it gets to the marketplace, you go from one or two units to mass production quickly," Dorsman says.
Quality issues
Others have grown frustrated by the spotty quality of foreign goods. Sleek Audio, which makes high-end earphones, has moved most manufacturing from Chinese contractors to its plant in Manatee County, Fla., in the past year. Contractors have turned out poorly soldered cables, defective connectors and torn flanges, says CEO Mark Krywko. The start-up once had to scrap several hundred thousand dollars' worth of earphones due to a bad cable, and production mistakes have cost it millions of dollars in retail sales.
"You would have batches that were good and batches that were bad," Krywko says, adding that he had to hire four employees to inspect shipments.
Meanwhile, he says, Chinese labor and raw-material costs have risen even as U.S. suppliers cut their prices in the slump. Although making the earphones in China is still 20% cheaper, "Dad got a few more gray hairs," says Krywko's son, Jason, the firm's vice president.
The Krywkos also tired of making six two-week trips a year to China. And with China 12 hours ahead of the East Coast, Jason had to call contractors almost daily at about 11 p.m. "My wife loves that," he says.
The company has hired five employees at its Florida plant and plans to add another 15.
No shipping headaches
Other reasons manufacturers are switching to the U.S.:
•Lower inventory costs and fewer shipping hassles. Diagnostic Devices, which makes blood-glucose testing strips and monitors for diabetics, has to ship about 20% more product than it needs because of the month-long trek ships take to the U.S. from contractors in China and Taiwan, says Chief Operating Officer Rick Admani Abulhaj.
The company also keeps about $4 million of extra goods in the warehouse in case of delays, forcing it to tie up a total $6.5 million in inventory compared with about $1 million if products are made in the U.S.
If products are defective, replacing them takes five months after figuring squabbles with contractors, shipments of raw materials back to Asia and reviews of new samples, he says.
In September, the company plans to move production of the strips to a new factory in Charlotte, where most of the manufacturing process will be automated to cut labor costs. Monitor-making is scheduled to move to Charlotte by the end of 2011. The firm is hiring 20 employees.
•Protection of intellectual property. With intellectual-property laws often enforced less vigorously in Asia, many manufacturers complain about counterfeiting. Farouk Systems, a top maker of hair irons and hair dryers, has spent $500,000 a month battling counterfeiters who put the company's trademark on copies of Farouk's products, says CEO Farouk Shami.
"Counterfeiting is killing us," he says.
To remedy the problem and whittle inventory costs to $50 millionfrom $120 million, Farouk last July moved some assembly of its irons and dryers from South Korea and China to a Houston factory that employs 1,000. Manufacturing costs in China are still about 30% lower. But Farouk believes the appliances' "Made in the USA" stamp will increase sales to hair salons.
•Ease of meeting customer demand. The Outdoor GreatRoom Co. had to order products such as fire pits nine months in advance to fit into its Chinese contractors' production schedule and account for shipping lags. Most sales are in the fall, forcing the firm to forecast customer design preferences and sales volumes well in advance.
"You're locked in," says CEO Dan Shimek. "You might buy the wrong inventory that moves slower than you'd like."
By moving manufacturing of fire pits and some outdoor shelters to the U.S. the past year, the company now can place orders just three months in advance.
Onshoring also has been a boon for suppliers. Three supplier trade groups joined forces last year for a marketing campaign to push manufacturers to bring production back to the U.S.
"I'd like to reduce the amount that's offshored by 30% to 40%," says Harry Moser, a former machine tool executive who conceived the effort. At a May trade fair in Irvine, Calif., 18 of 28 manufacturers that attended asked suppliers for quotes on purchases they would like to switch to U.S. sources.
Sales for vehicle gear supplier Morey are up 70% over last year as makers and fleet managers shift purchases to the U.S., says Vice President Taymur Ahmad.
Morey, which makes devices that track vehicle location, speed and maintenance data, has hired 110 employees at its Woodridge, Ill., plant since October.
"I'm getting business that's unprecedented," Ahmad says. "And it's all from customers that are looking to buy locally."

[Ele'ill]

Further than that I hope.










Oh, fucking relax- I'm kidding.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Most people on this site like to pretend that we're still living in the late-19th/early-20th century, so that would be a wish come true!

[AK]

Marx thought capitalism was in decay in the 19th century.
But it continues to this day.

[Raúl Duke]

Marx thought capitalism was in decay in the 19th century.

People have noticed this phenonmenon, of revolutionary leftists being of the opinion that the revolution (or collapse, in some cases, if nothing is done) is right around the corner.

I don't know if revolution is "right around the corner," whether it will happen in my lifetime, or if it would happen at all this century. There's also lesser known inverse version were people (like Lenin) say the revolution will happen "far into the future" and than occurs a few months after saying that. We just don't know really.

Although I will agree that some economic developments look pretty bad and worrisome, but it certainly is not regressing back to the 19th century; it's something new.

[RadioRaheem84]

Damn all this back and forth with this idiot system! Now some companies are finding it profitible to bring business back to the US? Let's just revolt now! Lol