Castro rejects privatisation/market

[REDSOX]

Raul castro made clear today that cuba will never embrace privatisation deregulation and liberalisation of its economy and anyone who thinks it is is plain wrong. Cuba according to its constitution says that socialism in cuba is irrevocable and irreversible and there is nothing in the latest announcements which contradict that. In a world especially in latin america everyone is throwing off the failed policy of privatisation, even some of the latin american bourgeois cannot stomach this filth.

[RadioRaheem84]

Cool, but is there a link to go along with your post?

[REDSOX]

Sorry no specific link as everytime i try to do a link it seems to break might be a server problem i dont know. Anyway you only have to google cuba to find out once you see in between the bourgeois mischief making.

[Chimurenga.]

http://en.rian.ru/world/20100802/160034970.html


03:29 02/08/2010


The Cuban economy will remain planned and centralized but the government could loosen its tight control over small businesses, the Cuban economy minister said.
"It is an updating [not reforming] of the economic model where the economic categories of socialism, not the market, will take priority," Marino Murillo told reporters at a meeting of the National Assembly on Sunday.
The possibility of economic reforms has been broadly discussed among domestic and foreign experts ever since Raul Castro replaced older brother Fidel Castro as Cuban president in 2008.
However, the new Cuban leader has been reluctant so far to make any major changes in domestic economic policies.
Murillo said the Cuban government did not plan to copy the market socialism of China or Vietnam.
"I think the Cuban model is a very Cuban model, which is oriented on revolution and socialism," the minister said.
According to estimates, the government controls over 90% of the Cuban economy that has been experiencing a severe economic crisis in the past two years.
Murillo attributed the country's economic woes to economic embargo imposed on communist Cuba by the United States in 1962.
"We cannot forget that the most powerful country in the world is our enemy," the minister concluded.
HAVANA, August 2 (RIA Novosti)

[The Vegan Marxist]

I hope Raul stays true to his word. Cuba is a great country & is definitely a great ally.

[Volcanicity]

I hope Raul stays true to his word. Cuba is a great country & is definitely a great ally.
yeah me too. the Raul of today seems to be vastly different from the hardline marxist of the revolution.Its great to see Fidel looking well and out of his Nike tracksuit though

[Victory]

Lets not pretend privatisation does not already exist in Cuba. It is a reform, I don't know why the Cuban Economy minister is trying to avoid the facts.

Cuba is the closest thing to Socialism existing today in the world, to see it restore Capitalism, which is the way it is heading, would be a nightmare.

I'm afraid the Cuban Communist party lacks, and has always lacked hard-line Communists.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Lets not pretend privatisation does not already exist in Cuba. It is a reform, I don't know why the Cuban Economy minister is trying to avoid the facts.

Cuba is the closest thing to Socialism existing today in the world, to see it restore Capitalism, which is the way it is heading, would be a nightmare.

I'm afraid the Cuban Communist party lacks, and has always lacked hard-line Communists.

I wouldn't say it's heading that way. Though, I would say that Cuba has remained in the same position that it's been for a good number of years now, with a few benefits.

[Volcanicity]

Lets not pretend privatisation does not already exist in Cuba. It is a reform, I don't know why the Cuban Economy minister is trying to avoid the facts.

Cuba is the closest thing to Socialism existing today in the world, to see it restore Capitalism, which is the way it is heading, would be a nightmare.

I'm afraid the Cuban Communist party lacks, and has always lacked hard-line Communists.
I dont think cubas heading towards capitalism,but it doesnt seem to be heading anywhere.I agree it definitely needs hardline communists but the big worry is what happens when fidel and raul go,because lets face it their not getting any younger.

[REDSOX]

No privatisation in cuba is taking place or will take place period!!

[S.Artesian]

No privatisation in cuba is taking place or will take place period!!


That's just not so, and hasn't been the case since the recovery from the special period after the collapse of the fSU.

There are privately owned restaurants, bed and breakfasts, taxis; there is private land ownership; there are privately owned hotels, albeit owned by private foreigners, private foreign corporations in "partnerships" with the government.

There are or were [been 10 years since I've been there] foreign-currency only markets and stores.

There is also considerable discussion in and out of the party and government about ways to stimulate the economy with "market reforms," and in particular allowing much more private input/output into agricultural production.

So... besides never saying never, given the intense strain the economy experiences, and the people endure, further privatization is certainly not an impossibility.

[KurtFF8]

I think that folks tend to underestimate what the developments in places like Venezuela and Bolivia have done and can do for Cuba in the future. While some changes had to be made after the Special Period, Cuba did not go down the same path China did long before and I don't really see that happening right now (take some major events or shifts in the government).

There's an interesting book I just got about the relationship between Venezuela and Cuba (written about 3 years ago) that ought to lend some insight here, called Cuba and Venezuela An insight into two revolutions that may help elaborate this point.

[S.Artesian]

I think that folks tend to underestimate what the developments in places like Venezuela and Bolivia have done and can do for Cuba in the future. While some changes had to be made after the Special Period, Cuba did not go down the same path China did long before and I don't really see that happening right now (take some major events or shifts in the government).

There's an interesting book I just got about the relationship between Venezuela and Cuba (written about 3 years ago) that ought to lend some insight here, called Cuba and Venezuela An insight into two revolutions that may help elaborate this point.

Well, given the condition of Venezuela's economy, I don't think there's very much at all it can do for Cuba without making its own condition worse. As for Bolivia, sorry, it's still the poorest, or next poorest country in Latin America, and I don't think it can do much for Cuba.

And I hope it doesn't do 'for' Cuba what it, Bolivia, did 'for' Haiti, like supplying military troops to the US/UN occupation. Of course Bolivia isn't alone in that-- Chile, China, Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina, Canada, France, the US, etc etc are all joined at the hip when it comes to occupying the home of, and maintaining punishment for, the first successful slave revolt and slave-led revolution

[KurtFF8]

Well one thing I had in mind was the oil for doctors agreement between Cuba and Venezuela that has helped both countries out quite a bit actually.

[S.Artesian]

Well one thing I had in mind was the oil for doctors agreement between Cuba and Venezuela that has helped both countries out quite a bit actually.

Yes... and it hasn't changed anything fundamentally. The world market will dictate those changes. It's happening in Venezuela right now, and without an expropriation of the bourgeoisie, the economy will crumble, just as it did under Allende in Chile in 1972-1973, and with similar results for the workers, the rural and urban poor. I'm sure it will be bloodier fight, but without destroying the economic basis for capitalism, without expropriating the bourgeoisie, capitalism wins. Plain and simple.

It took 2 years in Chile, it might take longer in Venezuela, and/or Bolivia but you can't do these things half-way.

[REDSOX]

After the great revolutionary offensive in 1968 small and medium sized businesses were all but nationalised indeed. If the government wants to hand these back and rent them out to a petit bourgeois class so fucking what as long as they are regulated and dont speculate with price rises or hoard goods. Elsewhere in the economy amongst the banks the land and state factories the government has not privatised anything although it has allowed joint ventures with foreign capital as a result of the special period. As long as a parvenu/bourgeois class does not emerge i coudlnt give a fuck if dog groom services, small restaurants, shoe shiners, and ice cream vendors are in the private sector. They will play no independent role in society and have no power to speak of, and although there is debate in cuba about how to improve the economy(which in itself is healthy) between the chinese advocates and the purists i have seen nothing to indicate that they are moving down the former road at least not with fidel and raul there and the 59 generation. When they die what will be interesting is to see if the next generation is as ideological committed to socialism as this generation is or whether they go down the market road but as things are concerned now no worries. So to the ultras and the wingers i say calm down and keep the dream alive!!

[S.Artesian]

After the great revolutionary offensive in 1968 small and medium sized businesses were all but nationalised indeed. If the government wants to hand these back and rent them out to a petit bourgeois class so fucking what as long as they are regulated and dont speculate with price rises or hoard goods. Elsewhere in the economy amongst the banks the land and state factories the government has not privatised anything although it has allowed joint ventures with foreign capital as a result of the special period. As long as a parvenu/bourgeois class does not emerge i coudlnt give a fuck if dog groom services, small restaurants, shoe shiners, and ice cream vendors are in the private sector. They will play no independent role in society and have no power to speak of, and although there is debate in cuba about how to improve the economy(which in itself is healthy) between the chinese advocates and the purists i have seen nothing to indicate that they are moving down the former road at least not with fidel and raul there and the 59 generation. When they die what will be interesting is to see if the next generation is as ideological committed to socialism as this generation is or whether they go down the market road but as things are concerned now no worries. So to the ultras and the wingers i say calm down and keep the dream alive!!


That's a wonderful rant, but not very good Marxist analysis. We're not talking dreams of would-be socialists, or dreams of wannabe capitalists. We're talking about what sort of social relations of production are going to be developed.

Private accumulation is private accumulation-- it develops social significance when it can command the labor of others. If the Cuban economy can neither provide the products, socially, that the population wants, nor the means to obtain those products, but a private economy can provide access to fruits, vegetables, foods, shirts, CDs, software programs; and the private economy can provide the means to purchase those things, money then we begin to get differentiation along class lines, and the government's control of the "commanding heights" won't amount to shit as it is eroded from below. This process was partially at work in the collapse of the fSU.

If the Cuban government is going to meet the needs of development, it needs access to advanced production techniques, advanced machinery, advanced 'command and control' programs. Absent an international revolution, the only place to get those things is the world markets. Cuba has to have something to sell to participate in those markets. Exactly what are those things?

Well, there's pretty much no market for selling ownership of the means of production for sugar in Cuba. There's markets for the economically and ecologically destructive tourist industry, with all it's wonderful detritus-- restricted hotels, clubs, restaurants, and of course prostitution etc.

There's a market for nickel, but despite the high prices of metals right now, Cuba needs more than what it can earn in those markets to revitalize its aging systems. It, Cuba, is going to have to sell access to minerals, sell its property, sell its control of Cuban labor power to entice the bourgeoisie with the prospect of value.

This is not about dog-grooming. It starts with agriculture, and consumer goods, as that's what state production always ignores. State accumulation is inevitably so far, built on the isolation of the revolution from international economic support. It lacks of access to the new technology and so accumulation takes place at the expense of consumption-- by holding down the consumption levels of the rural and urban workers. Now if a private economy starts to deliver those consumption goods-- and how will it be able to do that? because the state winds up subsidizing these private enterprises, the state absorbs the fixed costs of transportation systems, communication systems, often provides subsidized fertilizer and fuel, etc.-- well it doesn't take a Marx to see where that's going to go.

[REDSOX]

Look cuba is not in a revolutionary offensive position as of now it is in a defensive position trying to survive in a sea of capitalism and that my friend means making some limited temporary concessions to the devil(capitalism) that are necessary to keep afloat. Of course cuba its not perfect and purist like you want it to be but thats life comrade!!!!!. As for the aside about ranting and not having a marxist analysis well so what, the answers to problems and analysis of those problems does not always require some formulaic marxian dogmatic solutions all the time. And i repeat i dont care less about privately owned shoe shiners, and dog groomers. Dont you realise that cuba's survival and its strategy for its survival has saved socialist ideas worldwide and now they are spreading to countries like venezuela. Viva fucking cuba thats what i say!!!

[RadioRaheem84]

I thought Marxists were more interested in controlling the commanding heights of the economy. Like Lenin said, 1,000 small businesses count for nothing against 10 big ones, or something to that nature, I am paraphrasing. They're like squirrels dancing among elephants.

[S.Artesian]

Look cuba is not in a revolutionary offensive position as of now it is in a defensive position trying to survive in a sea of capitalism and that my friend means making some limited temporary concessions to the devil(capitalism) that are necessary to keep afloat. Of course cuba its not perfect and purist like you want it to be but thats life comrade!!!!!. As for the aside about ranting and not having a marxist analysis well so what, the answers to problems and analysis of those problems does not always require some formulaic marxian dogmatic solutions all the time. And i repeat i dont care less about privately owned shoe shiners, and dog groomers. Dont you realise that cuba's survival and its strategy for its survival has saved socialist ideas worldwide and now they are spreading to countries like venezuela. Viva fucking cuba thats what i say!!!


Then you're ignoring the issue-- the issue is what forces are working inside and upon the Cuban economy and what are the prospects, the possible results of those forces.

I'm not condemning concessions. I'm pointing out the conflicts, the hazards, the contradictions latent and manifest within the Cuban economy and that economy's position in the world markets.

You're the one who said privatization will never happen. Right, and I'm sure in 1972, nobody thought in 7 measly years a disgraced Deng would announce "4 reforms" and the CCP would initiate the enshrinement of private property. Just goes to show you how little history gives a fuck about saying "never." And about saying "viva."

If you want to just stand on a table and say "viva fucking Cuba," well that's great, and it's meaningless.

I've spent some time there, did a little work with the Cubans and would love to do more, but revolution, defense of a revolution even, never got anywhere ignoring what is going deep within, and outside, it.

You think it's heresy to point that out? To actually examine what goes on? OK, put your head back in the sand. Tough to hear you say "viva fucking Cuba," though when your head is in the sand. Unless of course viva fucking Cuba means viva whatever Raul and Fidel tell you to viva.

And I'm hardly a purist. I'm about as impure a person, in mind, body, spirit as you can find. My personal tasted is for equal amounts of debauchery and Marxism, and shaken not stirred.

[REDSOX]

Of course there are problems in the cuban economy but ultra left ranters like you only offer empty slogans not practical solutions. How about comming up with some solutions and not just engaging in a sectarian rant

[S.Artesian]

Love the verbiage. The only one ranting around here is you. The only one offering slogans in place of analysis is you with your "viva Cuba" and "your don't ask don't tell" admonitions about economic questions.

I may, or may not be an ultra-left. Recognizing conflicts and problems in an economy does not exactly define one's politics. But we know what you are: you're a poser. I've actually worked with the Cubans, provided them with something they needed, some "solutions" as you would phrase it. And you, you've provided what, besides pom-poms and cheerleading? And ignorance?

So try this slogan-- fuck yourself. And I mean that with my most sincere wishes for your future success, moron.