Where are the Socialist Apologists?

[BuddhaInBabylon]

I am so very new to all of this...so take this not as an affront but as it is intended, as a honest question...
We who live in a capitalist society and whom view Socialism/Anarchism/Communism/Leftism/whatever your preferred alternative may be, as a more suitable path for society, do so within the confines of our capitalist world and really have no basis for comparison other than what history tells us. Let's be frank....history does not paint a pretty picture of the process engaged in, in an effort to attain communism. My question or wonder is truly from ignorance so please direct me to the appropriate source if you know the answer to this...Where are the people who are advocating socialism in and of itself, and not as a means of opposition to capitalism directly? I really don't know how to elucidate what i'm trying to ask...i hope this is enough.

[BLACKPLATES]

I can agree with you on at least one thing "History" has painted a lot of really ugly pictures. All i can say to you about that is, its sounds to me like you havent looked at all the pictures yet.The picture of the history of American and European Imperialism is obscene. Im not trying to be facetious but If all your getting is the "Triumph of capitalism" stuff you arent looking very deep. The Media in America is saturated with that clap trap and not much else. Maybe start with a look at whats going on in the US and around the world with a slightly different perspective than you have gotten from NBC or FOX or the New York Times. Search for these journals and blogs online: "Political affairs", "counter punch" "Fire Dog Lake". "Bill Moyers Journal", "Democracy Now" Except for Political Affairs none of those are doctrinaire Marxist. If you are intersted in reading classical socialist theory and history go to one of those threads and ask, or check the FAQ page for readings. When you read, or listen, read and listen with a critical ear. Check the information against other sources. When you are sure what your hearing is true, and you are starting to see whats really going on, then YOU will be an Apologist for socialism

[BuddhaInBabylon]

Brilliant response and received well. I can assure you that the picture i see of America is indeed of imperialism, bigotry, and as evil of a landscape as one could put brush to canvas. The babylon in my name refers to the area in which i reside (DC) and it's not hard for me to see the extent to which corruption, greed, and apathy are destroying this nation of people known as americans....i see it everyday.....
But as you concede and also notice, the picture painted by history of the pursuit for communism is not pretty and i am beginning to lose hope in the notion that real reform and change can be brought about without the loss of life that i believe will be inevitable. somewhere in the hundreds of millions.....If i believed in a god i would say that i hope to it that i am wrong.....but.....Thank you once more for the references. i will do my homework.

[Rusty Shackleford]

there will be violence in all societies. the degree of violence depends on the form of society.

in a capitalist society, violence is a daily occurence be it economic of physical and always by a minority(the capitalists) against a majority(the workers). the difference is that in a capitalist society, its isolated and on an individual basis.

in a socialist society(a society before communism) violence exists to defend a revolution.

yes, there have been some major fuck ups like Pol Pot and im not here to defend him. i applaud vietnam for invading cambodia and getting rid of the khmer rouge.


also, history belongs to the victor, or at least the dominator. so long as capitalists have a strong hold on society, the point of view of the capitalists will pervade society.

[Weezer]

Brilliant response and received well. I can assure you that the picture i see of America is indeed of imperialism, bigotry, and as evil of a landscape as one could put brush to canvas. The babylon in my name refers to the area in which i reside (DC) and it's not hard for me to see the extent to which corruption, greed, and apathy are destroying this nation of people known as americans....i see it everyday.....
But as you concede and also notice, the picture painted by history of the pursuit for communism is not pretty and i am beginning to lose hope in the notion that real reform and change can be brought about without the loss of life that i believe will be inevitable. somewhere in the hundreds of millions.....If i believed in a god i would say that i hope to it that i am wrong.....but.....Thank you once more for the references. i will do my homework.

Sadly, the pursuit of communism is turned violently by those who resist. The Bolsheviks gained power quickly and with not much bloodshed. But it was when the White Russians and their American, European, and Australian bourgeois allies invaded Soviet Russia is when the real Russian Civil War started.

We don't want bloodshed, but the bourgeoisie will stop at nothing. They would give any life besides their own to protect their capital.

[BLACKPLATES]

Theres no shame in feeling the way you describe. I have often felt that way about it. I think it would be a mistake to fall for the premise that their are good guys and bad guys though. There are just guys doing good things or bad things. The whole -they bad /America sometimes bad but always better than they nonsense is just that. nonsense. its exceptionalism and i once bought into, long ago. Its hard not to when you are born here. Sometimes you have to make a complicated thing as simple as possible, for me it was this: Capital is running out of markets to easily exploit. There is no surplus value left to squeeze out of Americans at home so they have to amp up the millitarism. Soon that wont be enough and they will have to wring more out of us. That only ends one of two ways..we litteraly become slaves, or revolution. There is no stable status quo with capitalism.

[Barry Lyndon]

Sadly, the pursuit of communism is turned violently by those who resist. The Bolsheviks gained power quickly and with not much bloodshed. But it was when the White Russians and their American, European, and Australian bourgeois allies invaded Soviet Russia is when the real Russian Civil War started.

We don't want bloodshed, but the bourgeoisie will stop at nothing. They would give any life besides their own to protect their capital.

One of my favorite anecdotes is about when Lenin was holding a press conference with the Western press, and he was asked a question about Bolshevik political repression. He answered 'Who wants to know? The gentlemen who just murdered 10 million people in Europe?"[Referring to World War I]

[Invincible Summer]

Where are the people who are advocating socialism in and of itself, and not as a means of opposition to capitalism directly?

Are you referring to self-sustaining communes and the like? People who try and build "free societies" within capitalism?

[BuddhaInBabylon]

I'm not sure what i'm referring to actually...what i envision perhaps does not even exist yet.

[Q]

Where are the people who are advocating socialism in and of itself, and not as a means of opposition to capitalism directly?
This is actually a very good question. Much of the socialist movement today purely presents socialism from the angle of opposing "miserable, corrupt and bankrupt" capitalism. This is a very negative way to approach the matter I think and one clearly distinct from the Marxist movement of the late 19th century that tried to convey the "good news" of socialism, the bright future of a society transcending the dark pit of capitalism, we just need to grab for that!

Maybe the underlying difference between the two approaches is that the first focuses on daily, economistic, struggle (wages, jobs, cuts, war, etc), while the latter focuses more on fighting for a political alternative to this system and the fact that for that we need to organise as a class and grab for it.

[bie]

Where are the people who are advocating socialism in and of itself, and not as a means of opposition to capitalism directly?
I am advocating socialism in its real, historical form. I was living in the socialist society for few years, before the capitalist counterrevolution. If you want to know, what ordinary people think about real socialism in Easter Europe, try go go through this thread (http://translate.google.ie/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.interia.pl%2Fwatek-chronologicznie%2Fjak-bylo-za-komuny-dobrze-czy-zle%2C1003%2C1037327%2C%2Cc%2C1%2C94%2C0%2C0)(2010 ). It is originally in Polish, but the google translator can give an impression. Consider that this forum not connected to any leftist group. Have in mind also 20 years of vulgar, constant, institutional anticommunist propaganda.

This is the voice of the people.

[Q]

I am advocating socialism in its real, historical form. I was living in the socialist society for few years, before the capitalist counterrevolution. If you want to know, what ordinary people think about real socialism in Easter Europe, try go go through this thread (http://translate.google.ie/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.interia.pl%2Fwatek-chronologicznie%2Fjak-bylo-za-komuny-dobrze-czy-zle%2C1003%2C1037327%2C%2Cc%2C1%2C94%2C0%2C0)(2010 ). It is originally in Polish, but the google translator can give an impression. Consider that this forum not connected to any leftist group. Have in mind also 20 years of vulgar, constant, institutional anticommunist propaganda.

This is the voice of the people.

Indeed, this forum is not connected to any group and there are many tendencies represented here, from anarchists to Hoxhaists. I for one disagree that socialism ever existed in Eastern Europe (or anywhere else) and argue that "real existing socialism" was a counter-revolutionary regime run by a bureaucratic clergy in its own interests.

Just making this point clear for the OP.

[bie]

Indeed, this forum is not connected to any group and there are many tendencies represented here, from anarchists to Hoxhaists.
Sorry, I meant the different forum - this (http://translate.google.ie/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http://forum.interia.pl/watek-chronologicznie/jak-bylo-za-komuny-dobrze-czy-zle,1003,1037327,,c,1,94,0,0).

I for one disagree that socialism ever existed in Eastern Europe (or anywhere else) and argue that "real existing socialism" was a counter-revolutionary regime run by a bureaucratic clergy in its own interests.

Just making this point clear for the OP.
Of course you have a right to think what you want, but it is nothing but a sectarian approach that has nothing to do with reality. Eastern European countries as well as USSR were obviously socialist. If you have any other, idealized definition of that term, it is sufficient to say that it was something different that capitalism you all know very well.

[Q]

Of course you have a right to think what you want, but it is nothing but a sectarian approach that has nothing to do with reality. Eastern European countries as well as USSR were obviously socialist. If you have any other, idealized definition of that term, it is sufficient to say that it was something different that capitalism you all know very well.

For the sake of keeping this on topic, I propose an agreement to disagree ;)