Japan and foreigners

[DragonQuestWes]

I'm sure we're all aware of the fact that there are some issues with non-Japanese ethnic groups in Japan. I don't usually talk about this on a daily basis because it's not my biggest concern.

I consider myself to be a Japanophile (but not an "otaku" or "weeaboo"). I've been there before and I thought it was a nice place and I'm currently thinking about visiting again. As of for living there, I'd like to, but I don't really know if I can be there forever considering the limitations on foreigners. I even had to get my picture taken too after showing them my passport.

But what I want to ask you guys is "What's your thoughts and opinions on Japanese discrimination?" There are a few incidents such as when American-born Japanese citizen Debito Arudou sued a bath house for having a sign saying "Japanese Only."

Personally, I think Japan is no more or less racist than any other nation out there in the world. Sure there's a lot of nationalism over there but there's nationalism everywhere. I do however would like to see them loosen up a little on foreigner restrictions. I personally found it to be ridiculous when they payed a Brazilian worker to go back to her home nation.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Debito Arudou is a pathetic dick. I'd discriminate against such an arsehole myself, simply because he is so disgusting. Him and his imported American doors for his shitty gaijin-house in Ebetsu.

It's actually true that Japanese society is rather xenophobic however, for cultural and historical reasons. I don't fancy worthless fucktards like Debito Arudou will do anything about that issue however. More like make it worse.

I remember a site he linked to which basically complained about "Japanese statism" and demanded more free market, globalisation and liberalism. It was pretty disgusting.

Doesn't many South American countries have similarly restrictive immigration policies? I think many refuse to give work permit to anyone except when there really exists no one in the country that can do a certain task.

Moving to any other country is always a terrible hassle and great difficulty, no matter where. The requirements are often absurd and the bureaucratic regulation confusing as hell.

[DragonQuestWes]

Debito Arudou is a pathetic dick. I'd discriminate against such an arsehole myself, simply because he is so disgusting. Him and his imported American doors for his shitty gaijin-house in Ebetsu.

It's actually true that Japanese society is rather xenophobic however, for cultural and historical reasons. I don't fancy worthless fucktards like Debito Arudou will do anything about that issue however. More like make it worse.

I remember a site he linked to which basically complained about "Japanese statism" and demanded more free market, globalisation and liberalism. It was pretty disgusting.

Doesn't many South American countries have similarly restrictive immigration policies? I think many refuse to give work permit to anyone except when there really exists no one in the country that can do a certain task.

Moving to any other country is always a terrible hassle and great difficulty, no matter where. The requirements are often absurd and the bureaucratic regulation confusing as hell.

Speaking of "Free Market" and "worthless fucktards," I came across a couple of YouTube users who were British and living in Japan. One of them was a Free-Market Objectivist and the other was some fundamentalist Christian who constantly preaches about how "Communism is the devil." I couldn't even get past 15 seconds of any of their videos because of how batshit insane they were.

I can agree that acting like a "Baka na Gaijin" is just asking for trouble. Just like those American soldiers who raped an Okinawan schoolgirl. Sometimes I wonder if part of the reason for the xenophobia is because of the shit America has done to Japan.

I don't know much about immigration laws in South America nor do I know much about their job market there, but I do know there's been lots of job opportunities in China last time I checked.

[scarletghoul]

Japan is a very racist society.

However discrimination against Americans and other 'westerners' is not such a concern, as they are usually disgusting imperialist pig capitalists or occupying soldiers or whatever. The Japanese have good reason to hate Americans to be honest, given the ongoing US occupation.

What is troubling is the racism against oppressed minorities, like Koreans, Ainu, Chinese, Okinawans, etc. Many of them are not considered true Japanese and are segregated from the rest of society. For example Koreans go to special Korean schools (usually aligned with DPRK) and are not allowed into Japanese universities. In other words the racism is institutionalised, aswell as being perpetuated in culture. There is also the case of the Burakumin who are not a seperate 'race' but an 'untouchable' social group like the dalits.

Racism is very accepted and casual in Japan, it seems. I remember a few years ago a Prime Minister said he wanted to make the country a place where rich Jews would like to live :lol:. There seems to be an perception that the country is only for ethnic Japanese, and all minorities are regarded as foreigners, theres not acceptance that the country can be multi-ethnic

most westerners in Japan are disgusting pigs who deserve it though tbh.

EDIT: The other side of this is that Japanese are encouraged to view 'westerners' as superior and more beautiful.. Many get operations to have more 'western' eyes and so on. It's horrible. Anime for example uses some western features like big eyes and pale skin. The same is true in South Korea. This is a very interesting and troubling blog entry on racism being encouraged in South Korea - http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/2006/02/where_do_korean.html

[Hiratsuka]

most westerners in Japan are disgusting pigs who deserve it though tbh.


Tbh you need to rethink your reactionary views.

[Raúl Duke]

I've been to Japan years ago and had a nice time.

Although I wouldn't be surprised if they were racist...
I remember watching this (http://current.com/shows/vanguard/89610631_japan-robot-nation.htm) (9 minutes in they stalk about immigrants) and they had a part talking about immigrants.
While Japan is relatively open to visitors, Japan isn't very open to immigrants, they're not even that open to ethnic Koreans/Chinese that were born in Japan unless they completely and totally assimilate.


American-born Japanese citizen Debito Arudou

TBH, sometimes he complains about the most irrelevant shit (I remember reading something about some field day in Japan and he had some lame ass complaint about it; I thought it was stupid because America does the same kind of indoctrination towards the state; it's what schools usually do!) and he's quite insufferable I imagine.

[Queercommie Girl]

To be frank the Japanese are more racist towards the Chinese than towards any Western nation, even though historically much of Japanese culture was derived from that of China.

[FreeFocus]

Japan seems pretty xenophobic, although I admire what they did during the 1600s, preventing the spread of Christianity and defending themselves against European colonialism.

[The Red Next Door]

There was a point, when i wanted to move to Japan, but i cancel that Idea, after learning about the hardships i could face being an immigrant.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Certainly wouldn't stop me from visiting.

[Pavlov's House Party]

most westerners in Japan are disgusting pigs who deserve it though tbh.

So racism is OK in Japan as long as it's against white people? Fucking disgusting.

[khad]

^cry about your white privilege somewhere else.

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2010/08/02/top-10-foreigners-japanese-want-to-date/

Top 10 foreign nationalities Japanese would like to date.

1. USA – 4,194
2. Italy – 3743
3. UK – 3,467
4. France – 3,249
5. Korea – 2,706
6. Spain – 1,535
7. Russia – 1,256
8. Germany – 1,195
9. Brazil – 396
10. China – 296

[Raúl Duke]

Italy is almost 1st place yay

[DragonQuestWes]

Top 10 foreign nationalities Japanese would like to date.

1. USA – 4,194
2. Italy – 3743
3. UK – 3,467
4. France – 3,249
5. Korea – 2,706
6. Spain – 1,535
7. Russia – 1,256
8. Germany – 1,195
9. Brazil – 396
10. China – 296


I figured USA would be on the top for some reason. A lot of Japanese tend to admire Americans. At least the nice looking ones.

[Hiratsuka]

The other side of this is that Japanese are encouraged to view 'westerners' as superior and more beautiful..

I highly doubt that Asians in predominantly Asian nations teach themselves that Westerners are better. Anime is not a symptom of feeling inferior. The first anime developers were emulating American characters like Betty Boop and Bugs Bunny. Disproportionate eyes are everywhere a symbol of youth: human infants have large eyes relative to their head mass.

A lot of Japanese and Chinese youth have a fascination with American culture, and surprise, surprise, there's a huge group of American youth who are fascinated by Asian culture. It's just a fascination with what's different.

[Hiratsuka]

^cry about your white privilege somewhere else.

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2010/08/02/top-10-foreigners-japanese-want-to-date/

Top 10 foreign nationalities Japanese would like to date.

1. USA – 4,194
2. Italy – 3743
3. UK – 3,467
4. France – 3,249
5. Korea – 2,706
6. Spain – 1,535
7. Russia – 1,256
8. Germany – 1,195
9. Brazil – 396
10. China – 296


Half those nationalities aren't even commonly considered white.

I don't even know what one would call "American."

[727Goon]

It is totally disgusting I don't understand why people think it's okay to be racist against people just because they're white. I mean you're still judging someone because of their race and not whether they're a good person

There's a lot more racist against white people than people tend to realize, like how people stereotype white people as all being racist or stupid and won't talk to you just cause you're white. Even here in Baltimore where I live there are neighborhoods where you just can't go if you're a white person, how is that okay? I remember in middle school these puerto rican kids used to steal my lunch money and call me names like "cracker" and "fucking polack" how is that any different from using the n-word?

I think people in Japan need to relax and learn that we're all the same and welcome all kinds of people to their country not just asians

Awwww ickle whitey had his feewings hurt by the big bad negroes and illegals?

[MilkmanofHumanKindness]

Awwww ickle whitey had his feewings hurt by the big bad negroes and illegals?

Shut the fuck up. That is not at all what he said. Although that doesn't make what he said correct, it doesn't give you the right to act like a dick.

[bricolage]

I remember in middle school these puerto rican kids used to steal my lunch money and call me names like "cracker" and "fucking polack" how is that any different from using the n-word?

No Puerto Ricans ever had crackers as slaves.

"Billy cried "reverse racism" when the black boy called him a 'cracker' since it was not acceptable for Billy to call the boy 'nigger'. It's hard to understand how Billy was offended since no ancestor of his had even been called a 'cracker' as he was savagely whipped by a black man who owned him."
http://reverse-racism.urbanup.com/1081178

[Raúl Duke]

Most Puerto Ricans born and raised on the island don't normally have those words in their vocabulary, especially not the polish term.

They sound like nuyericans to me, in other words American.

[x359594]

We have to careful about sweeping generalizations about the Japanese or any other nationality. I lived there for two years in the early 1990s and lived in a gaishuku with other foreign workers, two men from Kuwait, some Canadians, a couple from New Zealand, an Australian.

I made contact with my Japanese left counter-parts so I know for a fact that there is a grass roots struggle against racism.

The principal group that suffered the most acute discrimination were Japanese of Korean ancestry, i.e., ethnic Koreans who held Japanese citizenship, either naturalized or born in Japan. They were and are treated as a second class citizens.

Concerning foreign workers, treatment varies according to occupation and nationality, with white collar North American workers receiving the greatest respect. My Kuwaiti comrades didn't speak English so we could only converse in our limited Japanese. They were extremely isolated and lonely, working in semi-skilled construction and sending most of their pay back home to their families. There only pleasures were drinking and TV with an occasional visit to a brothel (where the women were Philipinas for the most part.)

So how racist is the average Japanese citizen? I don't really know, but I would imagine that he or she is no more racist then the average Yankee, the difference being that in the USA legal racism has been considerably eroded, while legal discrimination in Japan has barely been scratched.

[Invincible Summer]

I mean you're still judging someone because of their race and not whether they're a good person

Duh, that's what racism is.


There's a lot more racist against white people than people tend to realize, like how people stereotype white people as all being racist or stupid and won't talk to you just cause you're white. Even here in Baltimore where I live there are neighborhoods where you just can't go if you're a white person, how is that okay?
Well, for hundreds of years people of color could hardly even share the same air as white folk so...





I think people in Japan need to relax and learn that we're all the same and welcome all kinds of people to their country not just asians
But we're not "all the same." Race, gender, sexuality, class all create different social conditions and interact with each other differently depending on the social context.

A Hispanic lesbian working class woman is going to have different shit going on than a White lesbian working class woman... etc.

Using this pluralist discourse is reactionary and really just upholds prejudiced/racist essentialist conceptions of race and does nothing to help marginalized groups and further sub-categories within each group.

[Hiratsuka]

Awwww ickle whitey had his feewings hurt by the big bad negroes and illegals?

Don't be stupid.

[BuddhaInBabylon]

very interesting commentary....
I am married to a japanese woman. I speak, read, and write (not as good as i read) conversationally fluent japanese, and have been to Japan twice. These facts do not make me an expert on the subject but i can relate my own experiences....
Firstly let me say that i experienced racism first hand in japan but the context of the situation was exceptional and the details are not important...That said, i can tell you that for the most part, there isn't even a FRACTION of the racial tension in japan towards whites, as there is here in the states. I live in the DC area, and white people here, represent the haves, the elitist pieces of shit that pretend like they run this country, the suits, the priveledged, the homeless, the underpaid, the "white trash", the aryan, the hippy, etc etc etc. It all depends how you present yourself in this town. The same holds true with every other race of people. But i have been hassled on the streets for being white in the wrong part of town, which i can tell you wouldn't happen to me in Japan.
On this 65th anniversary of the Hiroshima bombing, i feel personally as a white american, that if any japanese person were to hold a grudge against me and my race at first sight before they got to know me, i would understand and not hate them for it. Once they got to know me, they would soon see that i don't represent that particular fraction of white people that made the decision to drop that horror of horrors. (btw i am not ignorant of the atrocities that Japanese militarism commited all across asia.) The fact that i speak though, makes ALL the difference to them. Just like here when you see a "spanish" dude on the jobsite and he opens his mouth and says "good morning" instead of "eehhhhh no ahhhh..."you feel like you can communicate if ever so little, but just enough. And if he or she is competent in english, all your trepidations vanish. It's cultural mostly. Racism and cultural anxiety are two different things, and the differences between the two could fill volumes on this board and i just don't have that kind of time....
But as far as i can tell you, even the slightest effort to understand and participate in someone elses culture/world earns you a certain amount of slack, or appreciation that makes all the difference in society. Japan in particular.
If you distrust or hate without any effort to understand, you are a racist and deserve to have the problems you will inevitably encounter in your contacts with people different than you. If you embrace other cultures with an open mind and a vigor for international/intercultural communication, the chances of you being racist are slim and your life will be enriched. that's all i know.

[The Red Next Door]

Awwww ickle whitey had his feewings hurt by the big bad negroes and illegals?

Goon, we are better than the stupid racist white conservatives, let not behave like them, Brotha.

[727Goon]

All right you know what as dumb as that kids claim that anti-white racism is anything close to as bad as regular racism, I suppose my comment was a bit dick and unnecessary, so my bad.

[DragonQuestWes]

I lived there for two years in the early 1990s and lived in a gaishuku with other foreign workers, two men from Kuwait, some Canadians, a couple from New Zealand, an Australian.

Is a "gaishuku" supposed to be some kind of apartment for foreigners? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard that there's these little apartments for foreign workers.

[x359594]

Is a "gaishuku" supposed to be some kind of apartment for foreigners? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard that there's these little apartments for foreign workers.

That's right, it's a low rent apartment for foreign workers with shared kitchen, toilet and bath.

[x359594]

...as far as i can tell you, even the slightest effort to understand and participate in someone elses culture/world earns you a certain amount of slack, or appreciation that makes all the difference in society. Japan in particular...

That's very true about Japan. My efforts to speak Japanese were always encouraged and my clumsy Japanese was usually greeted with "Oh, how skillfully you speak Japanese."

While I personally never experienced any kind of racism during the the two years I spent in Japan (except for an incident on the subway, and the guy who insulted me was a drunk) I do know that Koreans of Japanese ancestry are treated as second class citizens. And I know that there is a segment of the Japanese population that's struggling against this discrimination too.

And for the record, my companera is a sansei (third generation Japanese-American.) Because her parents were interned during WWII she actually has more resentment against hakujin (boss charlie) then any Japanese I met in Japan.

[RotStern]

All right you know what as dumb as that kids claim that anti-white racism is anything close to as bad as regular racism, I suppose my comment was a bit dick and unnecessary, so my bad.

Anti-white racism is not regular racism?
Racism is Racism, just because it happens less doesn't make it any or worse.
The poster never claimed anti-white racism to be as ''bad'' as ''regular'' racism.
The poster was simply telling us about their experience with Racism.

[Raúl Duke]

these kids grew up in maryland

I don't consider them Puerto Rican than (per se)...unless they were born in Miami where everyone always refers to their parents/ancestors country of origin.

[MarxSchmarx]

That's very true about Japan. My efforts to speak Japanese were always encouraged and my clumsy Japanese was usually greeted with "Oh, how skillfully you speak Japanese."

While I personally never experienced any kind of racism during the the two years I spent in Japan (except for an incident on the subway, and the guy who insulted me was a drunk) I do know that Koreans of Japanese ancestry are treated as second class citizens. And I know that there is a segment of the Japanese population that's struggling against this discrimination too.


You mean Japanese of Korean ancestry? From what I understand, almost all Japanese who were in Korea left long ago (unlike say China or the Philippines).

The descrimination against Koreans and okinawans (and ainu and buraku), while painful and real, is no longer as bad as it was several decades ago. Many Koreans now choose not to naturalize, for example, even though the laws were relaxed.

Also in response to BIB as well, although it is true that almost universally caucasians don't experience racism (in the sense of institutionalized oppression based on one's ethnic background) or much ill will for that matter (unlike "other Asians" like Chinese or Pakistanis). However, I've heard that kind of response to attempts to speak a language characterized as "racism with a smile" and for the most part it rings true. For fluent white speakers or those Japanese who grew up/spent a lot of time abroad, the problem isn't so much derision as the impossibility of assimilation. This doesn't bother a lot of people - for example there are a lot of very successful people of white parentage in Japan. Poverty and social dysfunction are essentially unheard of among whites who have settled in Japan. And generally if they follow certain cultural conventions people very quickly get over racial differences. But for others, it is like having to wear a permanent mark that you are somehow "not one of us", and what is meant as generosity and good will can in fact come across as somewhat disrespectful to the person on the receiving end.

Now to be sure, this happens everywhere - especially in the Anglo-Saxon countries where there is a very patronizing attitude towards visible minorities (especially blacks) who "succeed" in the eyes of white people. Even people with, say, Italian names in Germany are somehow regarded as not being "fully German" or some such. And the racism experienced by say Turkish Germans is much more severe and brutal. But that doesn't make considering someone with an Italian last name somehow "not entirely German" is, however benign, not a basically xenophobic and racist response.

[727Goon]

Anti-white racism is not regular racism?
Racism is Racism, just because it happens less doesn't make it any or worse.
The poster never claimed anti-white racism to be as ''bad'' as ''regular'' racism.
The poster was simply telling us about their experience with Racism.


By regular racism I meant institutional racism, I probably could have worded that better. And theres no anti-white institutional racism, so anti-white racism is just racism on a personal level while racism against people who arent white supports an oppressive system.

[progressive_lefty]

I always thought that I would go to Korea for maybe 6 months, but after doing a bit of research and getting some perspective from Korean friends, I became aware of the fact that Korea is quite a conservative country, and almost backward. I've heard stories about racial discrimination or even attacks on other races in Korea, and as a result I am hoping to go to Japan instead. But I guess there is some things to consider before I go to Japan as well. Especially in relation to the old-conservative movements and radical fascist movements that still identify with WW2 Japan.

In my experiences, I've found young Japanese to be quite liberal minded with good intentions.

[Raúl Duke]

My efforts to speak Japanese were always encouraged and my clumsy Japanese was usually greeted with "Oh, how skillfully you speak Japanese."

This reminds me when Chinese exchange students thought I was very skillful with languages (and than used this as an opening statement for arguments on why I should go and try to learn Chinese; which I find an immensely difficult language).

[gorillafuck]

There's a lot more racist against white people than people tend to realize, like how people stereotype white people as all being racist or stupid and won't talk to you just cause you're white.There's a lot more racism towards minorities than people think and when there is prejudice against whites it's usually not on the same level as racism against minorities.


Even here in Baltimore where I live there are neighborhoods where you just can't go if you're a white person, how is that okay? If that's true then it's not okay. Keep in mind that for a lot of ethnic minorities being distrusted and unwanted like that is common in many places (like cops following in malls or stores).


I remember in middle school these puerto rican kids used to steal my lunch money and call me names like "cracker" and "fucking polack" how is that any different from using the n-word?It's much much different from using the "N word" because white people were never brought on ships over from Africa and made to be slaves while black people raped and tortured them, among other atrocities.

[LC89]

I highly doubt that Asians in predominantly Asian nations teach themselves that Westerners are better. Anime is not a symptom of feeling inferior. The first anime developers were emulating American characters like Betty Boop and Bugs Bunny. Disproportionate eyes are everywhere a symbol of youth: human infants have large eyes relative to their head mass.

A lot of Japanese and Chinese youth have a fascination with American culture, and surprise, surprise, there's a huge group of American youth who are fascinated by Asian culture. It's just a fascination with what's different.

I think it has alots to do with Asian Inferior Complex.


You mean Japanese of Korean ancestry? From what I understand, almost all Japanese who were in Korea left long ago (unlike say China or the Philippines).

The descrimination against Koreans and okinawans (and ainu and buraku), while painful and real, is no longer as bad as it was several decades ago. Many Koreans now choose not to naturalize, for example, even though the laws were relaxed.

Also in response to BIB as well, although it is true that almost universally caucasians don't experience racism (in the sense of institutionalized oppression based on one's ethnic background) or much ill will for that matter (unlike "other Asians" like Chinese or Pakistanis). However, I've heard that kind of response to attempts to speak a language characterized as "racism with a smile" and for the most part it rings true. For fluent white speakers or those Japanese who grew up/spent a lot of time abroad, the problem isn't so much derision as the impossibility of assimilation. This doesn't bother a lot of people - for example there are a lot of very successful people of white parentage in Japan. Poverty and social dysfunction are essentially unheard of among whites who have settled in Japan. And generally if they follow certain cultural conventions people very quickly get over racial differences. But for others, it is like having to wear a permanent mark that you are somehow "not one of us", and what is meant as generosity and good will can in fact come across as somewhat disrespectful to the person on the receiving end.

Now to be sure, this happens everywhere - especially in the Anglo-Saxon countries where there is a very patronizing attitude towards visible minorities (especially blacks) who "succeed" in the eyes of white people. Even people with, say, Italian names in Germany are somehow regarded as not being "fully German" or some such. And the racism experienced by say Turkish Germans is much more severe and brutal. But that doesn't make considering someone with an Italian last name somehow "not entirely German" is, however benign, not a basically xenophobic and racist response.
The Okinawan language is dying. So the discrimination isn't as bad as before is due to assimilation. They hide their identity to avoid being treated differently.


This reminds me when Chinese exchange students thought I was very skillful with languages (and than used this as an opening statement for arguments on why I should go and try to learn Chinese; which I find an immensely difficult language).
Do you learn Mandarin or Cantonese? Cantonese is much harder.

[Bright Banana Beard]

I think it has alots to do with Asian Inferior Complex.
Care to explain more about this?

[Raúl Duke]

Do you learn Mandarin or Cantonese? Cantonese is much harder.

They want me to learn Mandarin...

The only person who may have suggested me to learn Cantonese is an Australian woman who was raised in Hong Kong.

[Adi Shankara]

No Puerto Ricans ever had crackers as slaves.]

to be honest, no Russian, Ukranian, Polish, or Armenian had slaves either, seeing as most of us descended from slaves ourselves.

[Autumn Red]

I've heard of ethnic Koreans in Japan being forced to take Japanese names. Also, if you take a look at Japanese maps, they place Japan in the center of the world.

National Narcissism? Probably.

[Adi Shankara]

I've heard of ethnic Koreans in Japan being forced to take Japanese names. Also, if you take a look at Japanese maps, they place Japan in the center of the world.

National Narcissism? Probably.

so, have you ever looked at a Western map? Europe is in the center of the earth.

[Queercommie Girl]

They want me to learn Mandarin...

The only person who may have suggested me to learn Cantonese is an Australian woman who was raised in Hong Kong.

You should learn Mandarin. More and more HK people are learning to speak Mandarin anyway, it is by far the largest and most important Chinese language, the lingua franca of the ethnic Chinese world across the globe.

[Rainsborough]

most westerners in Japan are disgusting pigs who deserve it though tbh.


Scratch an international socialist and find the national socialist lurking beneath. :laugh:

[LC89]

Care to explain more about this?
Asia are alike to many parts of the Latin America, natives are once consider uncivilized and being feed about this idea. So people would worship white people and married to them in better that they are better or at least their offspring will be. Pretty much like Mulatto... The media globally hype mixed-race people are look better and smarter. In fact, White and half-white are being given the priorities for education and occupation. Western facial feature are consider as beauty standard.

When I was little, I'm not allow to go to kindergarten until I get a English/Christian name. I'm not allow to speak my native language at school. I'm also indirectly force to attend a Catholic school that force us to pray 3 times a day. To many other their pride of their enthicity usually slow chip away.