What S**ts Me About Working Class Right-Wingers [Archive]

Hobbitgoth

31st July 2010, 19:59

Muzk

31st July 2010, 20:14

They won't come if you don't lure them with something better, they probably reject that there even is a working class, so you must directly adress their beliefs, preferably with an insult.

Liberalism equals fascism
Ayn Rand modeled for furry porn

probably works

Hobbitgoth

31st July 2010, 20:16

lol Why didn't I think of that?:laugh:

Raúl Duke

31st July 2010, 20:18

What I want is a straight answer from a right-winger, working class preferably, as to why they don't think communism or anarchy would make their lives better? Usually, they disagree with it because they misunderstand both..

Although, if they do understand it they'll say "well I don't know if we can make it work; I doubt revolution is ever coming" or "it only works on paper (reference to the 'socialist' failure that is the USSR)."

Then, when we explain that we are actually fighting for THEIR rights and THEIR wishes they just sit there dumbfoundedWhat's with the use of 3rd person? No one really thinks a group outside a group will make life for that group better; only if it's a group within.

Hobbitgoth

31st July 2010, 20:26

What's with the use of 3rd person? No one really thinks a group outside a group will make life for that group better; only if it's a group within.

Well, I don't say it like that in conversation. It's more along the lines of, "Most, if not all, communist or anarchist groups wish to accomplish the same goals you desire. Maybe you should research it some more." Then again, there are times when I get angry and yell at them.:blushing:

Bud Struggle

31st July 2010, 20:42

What they really are are Libertarians maybe with some Primitivist tendancies.

I'm not a "worker" per se, but I sometimes feel that way--the damn government isn't doing me any favors with it's wars and welfare systems. I'd be happy to make my way in life--I earn what I earn and I don't want any other rights but those in the Constitution and no taxes to pay for government programs. I'll buy my own food and housing and healthcare--and let everyone else buy theirs.

RGacky3

31st July 2010, 20:43

"Bah, the government aint good for nuttin'!"

Fox news myth, actual statistics and polls show that the American people are overwhelmingly progressive.

Bud Struggle

31st July 2010, 20:51

Fox news myth, actual statistics and polls show that the American people are overwhelmingly progressive.

I think your stats showed they are overwelmingly free enterprise.

There's nothing "progressive" about big government anyway.

Hobbitgoth

31st July 2010, 20:55

Fox news myth, actual statistics and polls show that the American people are overwhelmingly progressive.

I'm talking about working class right-wingers specifically. No matter how small of a minority they are, I'm only addressing them and not the general populace.

RGacky3

31st July 2010, 21:11

I think your stats showed they are overwelmingly free enterprise.

There's nothing "progressive" about big government anyway.

My stats, I'm talking about issues stats, such as healthcare, social security, taxes on the rich, public services, campain finance reform, and so on.

BTW, don't give me this shit about big government, if the right wing really cares about big government we would have cut defence spending in half already, and stop getting in people's bed rooms, they don't care about big government, they care about big buisiness power.

For example http://www.ourfuture.org/files/Center-Left-Nation.pdf

Or http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/pdf/progressive_majority.pdf

I'm talking about working class right-wingers specifically. No matter how small of a minority they are, I'm only addressing them and not the general populace.

Others may disagree, but as far as I can tell they are suckers, duped.

Bud Struggle

31st July 2010, 22:45

My stats, I'm talking about issues stats, such as healthcare, social security, taxes on the rich, public services, campain finance reform, and so on.

BTW, don't give me this shit about big government, if the right wing really cares about big government we would have cut defence spending in half already, and stop getting in people's bed rooms, they don't care about big government, they care about big buisiness power.

For example http://www.ourfuture.org/files/Center-Left-Nation.pdf

Or http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/pdf/progressive_majority.pdf

Others may disagree, but as far as I can tell they are suckers, duped.

I agree about the Conservatives LOVING big government--they are worse than the Liberals. But then again that's one of the big points of the Tea Party--they actually want smaller government.

RGacky3

31st July 2010, 23:03

But then again that's one of the big points of the Tea Party--they actually want smaller government.

Really, wheres the protests against military spending? Wheres the protests against farm subsidies, wheres the protests against military government contracts, or corporate subsidies, I don't see them, so far all I hear is protests against ANYTHING that might hurt big buisinesses profit, or anything that actually benefits poor people.

The tea partiers are suckers.

(I agree with Chomsky, that the tea partieres have real problems and issues caused by capitalism, and that the right wing just channeled that discontent, but I disagree with him that we should'nt make fun of them, because what else do you do to people who are so easily duped. Maybe I'm the bad guy.)

Bud Struggle

31st July 2010, 23:19

Really, wheres the protests against military spending? Wheres the protests against farm subsidies, wheres the protests against military government contracts, or corporate subsidies, I don't see them, so far all I hear is protests against ANYTHING that might hurt big buisinesses profit, or anything that actually benefits poor people.

The tea partiers are suckers.

(I agree with Chomsky, that the tea partieres have real problems and issues caused by capitalism, and that the right wing just channeled that discontent, but I disagree with him that we should'nt make fun of them, because what else do you do to people who are so easily duped. Maybe I'm the bad guy.)

I think they have a way to go--and most of their issues are domestic so far. I think for the most part oblivious to big business. I know I am--I could care less how much big companies make, All I really care about is my own business.

But that's not to say they shouldn't care--because those people eat up large amounts of taxes. That's what things like the fair tax people and the flat tax people care about. Those things are in the works.

Like them or not they did in a very short time what Communists have been trying to do since the 30s.

Adil3tr

1st August 2010, 00:40

They are ours comrades. Deep, Deep...Deep down they are like us. They want similar things, they have just been twisted or fooled by the right and pissed off by the American "left." Insulting them will get us nowhere. A lot of them are really bad off, if we are clear, concise, and sane about how we are on their side and want to protect them from a system that is built to screw them over, they can come over eventually.

BLACKPLATES

1st August 2010, 01:05

I assume your joking about the best way to persuade? no? yes? maybe? Usually when i start an argument with an insult it never rises beyond the level of traded insults. Blue collar Workers with right wing biases (i dont think they actually have "beliefs") are just reacting emotionally. I guess thats why those responses are called reactionary.Race fear which is seared into every American from birth is probably the prime motivation of tea bagging working class right.Ive learned that having ready,true, proveable facts about Labor unions puts them off balance.Its not that they can be argued out of thier ignorance so much as as it is that they cant stand to lose (who can right?) after several schoolings many of them will look for the facts you are beating them with and discover the truth. Then they will face a crisis. They will be forced to examine their closely held prejudices, even if its only in secret, and even if they refuse to publicly admit them. Eventually some of them will have to. I belive thats how peoples beliefs grow, and are changed.

BLACKPLATES

1st August 2010, 01:08

A LOT of working class people are "pissed off" at the welfare state becasue it has failed them. That is not accidental. The Welfare state as it exists in America is all about dividing us. As you say "deep down" even the angriest, most reactionary tea bagger has probably needed help and been refused it for some reason.

#FF0000

1st August 2010, 02:18

Then, when we explain that we are actually fighting for THEIR rights and THEIR wishes they just sit there dumbfounded, then go watch Glenn Beck and start the tirade over again and talk about how capitalism gets them off.

That's more the left's fault than the working class'.

Skooma Addict

1st August 2010, 04:10

Blackscare

1st August 2010, 04:42

They always complain, "Bah, the government aint good for nuttin'!"

I'm talking about working class right-wingers specifically.

Take your condescension and elitism to a coffee shop and go hang out with the rest of the liberals.

Oh, the working class isn't enlightened about Marx or socialism, lets mock them and their funny, primitive way of talking! Stupid provincials!

We'll never get anywhere whining about the working class and mocking them because WE are not effective enough to agitate amongst them.

BLACKPLATES

1st August 2010, 05:02

I am really impressed by your groundbreaking and very well thought out critique.
This coming from the author of the most one liners on the web.And 98% of those are one sentence questions.

RGacky3

1st August 2010, 08:56

I think they have a way to go--and most of their issues are domestic so far. I think for the most part oblivious to big business. I know I am--I could care less how much big companies make, All I really care about is my own business.

THey are oblivious to big buisiness because their movement is a fully owned subsidiary of big buisiness (I love anthony wiener), they should'nt be, because big buisiness controls their lives WAY more than the government ever does, they talk about death pannels, insurance companies have them, they talk about restricting choice, big buisiness does that too. They talk about destorying democracy, big buisiness has done that.

The Tea Party is OWNED by big buisiness, which is why they are suckers.

But that's not to say they shouldn't care--because those people eat up large amounts of taxes. That's what things like the fair tax people and the flat tax people care about. Those things are in the works.

What those people care about is essencially redistribution of wealth upwards, thats what the flat tax does, if they really cared about a fair tax code they'd talk about capital gains tax, which they won't. They should care about big buisiness because it crashed the economy, took their money, destroyed their democracy, and now want more of it.

Like them or not they did in a very short time what Communists have been trying to do since the 30s.

What did they do?

Blackscare

1st August 2010, 09:05

Like them or not they did in a very short time what Communists have been trying to do since the 30s.

Build a classless society? SAWEET!.

Hobbitgoth

1st August 2010, 11:27

I am really impressed by your groundbreaking and very well thought out critique.

Your sarcasm just blows my mind!:D

Hobbitgoth

1st August 2010, 11:35

Take your condescension and elitism to a coffee shop and go hang out with the rest of the liberals.

Oh, the working class isn't enlightened about Marx or socialism, lets mock them and their funny, primitive way of talking! Stupid provincials!

Dude, I'm just talking about working class right-wingers. I'm not trashing all working class people. I grew up on a farm and lived on a diet of mac and cheese and raisins (not mixed together, that'd be disgusting:lol:) for the first 10 years of my life, and my situation hasn't improved much since. I am part of "their people." By "we" I mean people who agree with communism or anarchy in its many forms. Sorry if I came off sounding like a snob.:( Plus, mac and cheese is awesome!

Bud Struggle

1st August 2010, 12:21

Build a classless society? SAWEET!.

Almost--the TPers have put together a nationl movement and have gotten media momentum.

RGacky3

3rd August 2010, 13:28

They did'nt put a national movement together, freedomworks and americans for prosperity did along with fox news, and classless society? If by that you mean do everything to support the richest people in america a the detriment of everyone else, then yes.

Dean

3rd August 2010, 15:41

Almost--the TPers have put together a nationl movement and have gotten media momentum.

Those idiots would like nothing more than a return to slavery. It's just a white privilege movement in the context of a white nationalist economy. They have no interest in a classless society.

Baseball

3rd August 2010, 18:27

I What I want is a straight answer from a right-winger, working class preferably, as to why they don't think communism or anarchy would make their lives better?

Probably because communists or anarchists have failed to make their case that it would.

Bud Struggle

3rd August 2010, 20:52

Those idiots would like nothing more than a return to slavery. It's just a white privilege movement in the context of a white nationalist economy. They have no interest in a classless society.

No. I don't think so. It's a return to American individualism. I take care of mine, you take care of yours. We provide for the national defence together and make some general rules on how to live. We build roads and bridges together--then we go our separate ways. My wife gets sick--you may want to send her flowers--not pay part of her hospital bill. Those bills would be my job.

I don't "owe" you anything. You don't "owe" me anything. If I help you out--it's as a friend. We all make our own way in life. I like to say that Communism would put an end to all of that, but big business has already finished that way of life long ago.

Dean

4th August 2010, 01:23

No. I don't think so. It's a return to American individualism. I take care of mine, you take care of yours. We provide for the national defence together and make some general rules on how to live. We build roads and bridges together--then we go our separate ways. My wife gets sick--you may want to send her flowers--not pay part of her hospital bill. Those bills would be my job.

I don't "owe" you anything. You don't "owe" me anything. If I help you out--it's as a friend. We all make our own way in life. I like to say that Communism would put an end to all of that, but big business has already finished that way of life long ago.

Too bad that they consistently endorse restrictions on immigration, ignore privacy rights, support expanded military activity, ignore the habeus corpus issue, and support expanded police privilege.

They do love to ***** about individualism, I'll give you that. But they're not only totally ignorant of the issues of individualism; when it comes up, they consistently fall on the side of big business and big government. It's absolutely pro-authority and their policy positions are reminiscent of all the past xenophobic, authoritarian ideologies.

In fact, there is a local tea party sign which decries the "7,000,000 to winterize the homes of the dead and wealthy." What is shocking about this is the apparent blame on 'socialist' policies and the government. But it is precisely the result of an advanced capitalist financial system that these homes had to be vacated and winterized.

Scary Monster

4th August 2010, 01:47

Almost--the TPers have put together a nationl movement and have gotten media momentum.

ohhhh. my. god. man, how much fox news do you watch, or are you deliberately bs-ing? Absolutely no one takes the tea partiers seriously. I keep seeing you on this site talking about the tea party as if its a major movement.

Ele'ill

4th August 2010, 03:09

Almost--the TPers have put together a nationl movement and have gotten media momentum.

Technically the kids huffing 'butt hash' did too.

Hiero

4th August 2010, 03:30

People are trench with layers of ideology. In one sentance you ask them to voluntarily disintergrate their world (in it's ideological form). Someone who doesn't post here anymore compared it to Lacan's concept of aggressivity in patients who are confronting the analyst in the clinical setting and react with aggressivity (shouting, arriving late, fiddling etc) to progress.

I think the masses can only accept the idea of such overbearing concepts as Communism when the social world is at a heighten conflict. Not just on the verge but at the pinicle of the main contradiction (between social relations and productive forces.

Your trying to bring someone out of what they assume is natural, to destroy their source of reference to the world.

redSHARP

4th August 2010, 05:35

I agree about the Conservatives LOVING big government--they are worse than the Liberals. But then again that's one of the big points of the Tea Party--they actually want smaller government.

once voted into power, they will either drive the economy to the ground with unrealistic ideas, or the world would laugh the US off the planet. the teaparty will sell out like all the other parties. as much as i hate what the parties do, its a shame to see anyone being lied to like that.

RGacky3

4th August 2010, 08:44

No. I don't think so. It's a return to American individualism. I take care of mine, you take care of yours. We provide for the national defence together and make some general rules on how to live. We build roads and bridges together--then we go our separate ways. My wife gets sick--you may want to send her flowers--not pay part of her hospital bill. Those bills would be my job.

I don't "owe" you anything. You don't "owe" me anything. If I help you out--it's as a friend. We all make our own way in life. I like to say that Communism would put an end to all of that, but big business has already finished that way of life long ago.

Those are great ideals, but not ideals of the tea party, maybe some of the individuals, but the movement is entirely driven by corporate interests.

But that sort of society is really impossible unless we live in some cowboy town in the wild west, even then it was impossible because the big time ranchers held a lot of power.

Big Buisiness is the nessesary outcome of Capitalism, you can break up all the big corporations now, but they'll come back unless you get rid of Capitalism.

That sort of individualist idealism might work if everyone has equal access to resources and capital, and everyone has equal opportunity to make use of them, but its not that way, and it won't be under Capitalism.

As far as the "American" individualism, theres really nothing uniquely American about it, Before WWI socialism was almost bigger in the US than it was in europe. THe first European American's were socialists.

But the tea partiers, even if they have your individualistic idealism, are suckers, and really only serve corporate interests, honestly I kind of feel bad for them.

AerodynamicOwl

12th August 2010, 14:02

Fox news myth, actual statistics and polls show that the American people are overwhelmingly progressive.

In american politics, ive discovered that most people follow the media in lieu of what they believe. this is called "The American Way"

Kayser_Soso

12th August 2010, 15:23

In american politics, ive discovered that most people follow the media in lieu of what they believe. this is called "The American Way"

Speaking of right-wingers, this is because of the general tempo and nature of right-wing media. The rise of the right-wing media correlates with something called "the backlash"- white male reaction to the identity politics movement of the 1960s and 1970s. Backlash politics consists of an endless stream of various "outrages" which might occupy the right-wing news circuit for a day, a week, or even continually for years. It really doesn't matter how trivial or false the outrage is. This is why conservatives today still joke about Al Gore claiming to have invented the internet.

If you can stomach watching or listening to conservative media, don't get so wrapped up in the content itself but notice the structure and tone. From the various news stories of the day, some of them quite trivial, commentary is created which supports the ruling class interest. Most of these news stories will be spun into outrages of the day/week. For example:

1. Clinton cheated on his wife(long-running outrage)
2. Clinton said he didn't inhale!!! He was a draft dodger, etc.
3. Clinton allowed US troops under UN/foreign command!!!!
4. Clinton is pro-abortion....

Fast forward to today:

Obama had connections to Bill Ayers, Obama might not be a citizen, Obama went to the wrong church. Obama took too long to find a church. Obama doesn't go to church often enough. Obama didn't observe national prayer day. Obama talked about the need to pray for a solution to the oil spill but he doesn't go to church often enough. Obama didn't attend a boy scout festival. Obama bowed to the emperor of Japan, he bowed to the Saudi King. Ad nauseum.

It actually gets to the point where stories that have nothing to do with Obama or even America get conservatives cursing his name. Just the other day I saw a story about a cargo ship collision off the coast of Mumbai. I clicked on the photo, and as it was Yahoo news, famous for the stupidest comments on the internet besides those on Youtube, I looked at the first comment. Some conservative attempted to associate Obama with a cargo ship collision, and added some openly racist statements to boot.

The shocking inconsistancy and hypocrisy associated with conservatives comes from the fact that their media has literally transformed the way they see the world, politics, history, and virtually anything else. Everything is divided into good and evil, and everything consists of a series of outrages caused by the "evil" side. This is why you see these people claim that Obama ruined the economy even when the economy was already in the shitter by 2008. This is why many of them think that the bailout was entirely Obama's idea.

Instead of a mural, these people are thinking with a collage made up of many outrages, rumors, memes, and random names. Just browse comments sections all over the web and you'll hear them spouting off with bullshit about Saul Alinsky, SEIU, Acorn, Community Organizers, and so on. Beck et all tell them these things are evil, and they repeat these memes endlessly, often in a hilarious-were-it-not-tragic form.

Progressive media cannot possibly counter this because A. though there are rich people with progressive views, most of the ruling class prefers the dominance of modern conservatism for obvious reasons. More importantly is B - Progressive attempts at countering the noise machine fail because they never have the initiative. One morning the memo comes in about the outrage of the day, and it is hammered upon endlessly across cable news, AM radio, and the ghost-writers might even write an entire book about it. Progressives always get caught napping and then try to counter with facts, though sometimes they can't even construct an argument because they share certain key assumptions with conservatives and are largely unaware of this. It doesn't matter how many times Keith Olberman uses facts to debunk some claim of Bill O'Reilly. Whatever the latter said has been repeated for hours, and will continue to be so, by seemingly countless voices. The people who watch and believe Bill O aren't going to care about facts, only that they came from the CRAAAAZY Keith Olberman.

Dean

12th August 2010, 16:29

The people who watch and believe Bill O aren't going to care about facts, only that they came from the CRAAAAZY Keith Olberman.

2 Problems:
-You fail to recognize that the democrats and liberal leaning outlets use the exact same model (for instance, *****ing about a few tea party creeps who hurl racist epithets without acknowledging the racism inherent in white-empowerment movements)

-Olbermann is instrumental in using the exact same model of obfuscation and petty partisan bickering. He rarely critically assesses issues.

Kayser_Soso

12th August 2010, 16:32

2 Problems:
-You fail to recognize that the democrats and liberal leaning outlets use the exact same model (for instance, *****ing about a few tea party creeps who hurl racist epithets without acknowledging the racism inherent in white-empowerment movements)

-Olbermann is instrumental in using the exact same model of obfuscation and petty partisan bickering. He rarely critically assesses issues.

Actually I would have agreed with both these points, and it seems like I did not expand on them enough. This illustrates another reason why the so-called "progressive media" fails, because it is basically just punditry without the initiative(they don't start outrages, they respond to right-wing created outrages). They do not analyze but attempt to butt heads with the right-wing media machine which is far more powerful.

They use the same "model" both in the way they construct their media counter-attack, and in the way that many liberal ideas about government, capitalism, society, and what not, are not significantly different than conservative ideas about the same.

Reznov

12th August 2010, 17:23

Right-wingers, if you're out there, please respond. I'd love to tear you guys a new cornhole.:D

Off topic but, why would you ask that question here? Wouldn't it better to ask this, oh I dont know, maybe at a right-wing website?

anticap

12th August 2010, 21:52

a return to American individualism.

Ah yes, the myth of rugged cowboy individualism, which never existed.

I take care of mine, you take care of yours.

I am yours, and you are mine. We're all in this together, pal, like it or lump it.

Do you realize how fucking small this marble is that we're standing on? Go download Google Earth, zoom in on your home, then zoom out until you can see the whole planet. Grab it with your little god-like hand icon and spin it. The other side of it is right over there. -->

Shit, just think back to the globe in your elementary school classroom. Didn't it dawn on you even then?

Here, watch this:

p86BPM1GV8M

And here's a relevant quote:

Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot consider themselves nobler, better, grander, more intelligent than those living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others.

Your way of thinking is the same, but taken to an even further extreme. Reducing humanity to the atomistic "all against all" is regressive thinking (not to mention impossible nonsense). We need to take off the blinders and expand our vision of humanity to an "all for all" way of thinking.

We provide for the national defence together and make some general rules on how to live. We build roads and bridges together--then we go our separate ways.

Why? Why those things? Ah, the "nation." Go look that word up in a dictionary. It's collectivist in every sense -- not individualistic.

But why even have a nation? If it's you against the world, then you and I don't need to come together to do anything. Provide for your own defense, cowboy. Is yer six-shooter loaded?

My wife gets sick--you may want to send her flowers--not pay part of her hospital bill. Those bills would be my job.

No, they'd be her problem, according to your own demented ideology. "Sorry honey, I'd like to help out, but I'm an individualist. Good luck with your cancer. Love, Bud."

We all make our own way in life.

Utter nonsense. Robinsonade mythology. Pure, unstrained, Grade-A horseshit.

Life for our species simply does not work that way. We frail little naked apes need one another so desperately that to even countenance the idea of individualism is to betray a total lack of comprehension of the human experience.

Here, have another quote:

How ridiculous are the ideas of the individualists... who conceive society as the result of the free contract of individuals absolutely independent of one another and entering into mutual relations only because of the convention drawn up among men. As if these men had dropped from the skies, bringing with them speech, will, original thought, and as if they were alien to anything of the earth, that is, anything having social origin.

You're living in a fucking fantasy world, compadre.

Those are great ideals

No they're not, they're fucking idiotic and totally unrealistic, and not even desirable for anyone who wasn't raised by wolves or marooned on a deserted island for 20 years.

Bud Struggle

12th August 2010, 22:33

Ah yes, the myth of rugged cowboy individualism, which never existed. When you compare the US to Asian or even European societies--it is much more individualistic. There are some bad things about it, but you don't get into the kid of ethnic or religious violence you get in other places. So there is a trade off.

I am yours, and you are mine. We're all in this together, pal, like it or lump it. I rather take care of me and mine--you do the salme for yours.

Do you realize how fucking small this marble is that we're standing on? Go download Google Earth, zoom in on your home, then zoom out until you can see the whole planet. Grab it with your little god-like hand icon and spin it. The other side of it is right over there. --> All nice, but I'll stay on my land and you stay on yours...good fences make good neighbors.

Shit, just think back to the globe in your elementary school classroom. Didn't it dawn on you even then?

And here's a relevant quote: Thanks. I wrote an interesting thing on him in the "Who is your favorite Communist" thread.

Your way of thinking is the same, but taken to an even further extreme. Reducing humanity to the atomistic "all against all" is regressive thinking (not to mention impossible nonsense). We need to take off the blinders and expand our vision of humanity to an "all for all" way of thinking. Nobody's "against" anything. You are taking it to far. But I also believe "stay off of my property" unless you are invited.

Why? Why those things? Ah, the "nation." Go look that word up in a dictionary. It's collectivist in every sense -- not individualistic. We have some--maybe a lot of things in common. But in this world where there is private property and as long as there is private property--it should be respected. Change the world, change the law, then fine. But now that is the way it goes.

But why even have a nation? If it's you against the world, then you and I don't need to come together to do anything. Provide for your own defense, cowboy. Is yer six-shooter loaded? Well here in Florida we do have something similar. It's called the "Castle Law" from the phrase "everyman's/woman's home is his/her castle." So if you trespess on my property with criminal intent--I'm allowed to use deadly force to prevent you. (Not that I would--I'm a sweet, and peaceful kind of person.)

No, they'd be her problem, according to your own demented ideology. "Sorry honey, I'd like to help out, but I'm an individualist. Good luck with your cancer. Love, Bud." You are streaching on this one. I have a marriage contract with my wife--for better or worse. So I take care of her, she takes care of me. I don't have a contract with you.

Utter nonsense. Robinsonade mythology. Pure, unstrained, Grade-A horseshit. As you wish.

Life for our species simply does not work that way. We frail little naked apes need one another so desperately that to even countenance the idea of individualism is to betray a total lack of comprehension of the human experience. I understand, that's your view--and I respect that. I have a slightly different view.

You're living in a fucking fantasy world, compadre.
I don't know where you are from--but to a good extent that's how America works. :)

Peace on Earth

13th August 2010, 02:15

Bud Struggle

13th August 2010, 02:34

Bud, it seems that people love to proclaim the wonders of individualism, yet stay quiet when they use public roads, use knowledge from the public education system, or use any other institution provided by the public for the public. You have to admit that many social problems could easily be eradicated, or at least limited, by moving ideology from a "mine is mine" perspective to one that helps everyone reach a high level of life.

I agree--Communism could bring a better life. And if it REALLY did what it promised it could be wonderful. I just think that people would fuck it ou to be a horrorshow.

A good example is the Commies around here--some really present a great view of people ilving together in harmony and then on the other side you get people planning to dig up Stalin and have him rule for a thousand years.
.

RGacky3

13th August 2010, 10:03

When you compare the US to Asian or even European societies--it is much more individualistic. There are some bad things about it, but you don't get into the kid of ethnic or religious violence you get in other places. So there is a trade off.

Ask a black guy, ask a Mexican, when it comes to Asian or European societies .... ehhh, thers areguments to be made about whether it is actually more individualistic.

All nice, but I'll stay on my land and you stay on yours...good fences make good neighbors.

Everntually your gonna have to deal with other poeple, economically, the question is how its done, is it done one equal terms with mutual rights? (Socialism) or is it done tyrannically (capitalism).

I agree--Communism could bring a better life. And if it REALLY did what it promised it could be wonderful. I just think that people would fuck it ou to be a horrorshow.

A good example is the Commies around here--some really present a great view of people ilving together in harmony and then on the other side you get people planning to dig up Stalin and have him rule for a thousand years.

Communism is something that need to be worked toward, the more socialistic we make society, in the right way, its gonna get better, its not about making a paradise system right away (if thats possible).

As for those wanting to dig up Stalin, the best word is just political fetishism, they'd go for anything with a sickle and hammer, because damn, it looks so glorious.

Hobbitgoth

14th August 2010, 13:27

Off topic but, why would you ask that question here? Wouldn't it better to ask this, oh I dont know, maybe at a right-wing website?

Because this is in the Opposing Ideologies forum, where right-wingers are actually allowed to be in. And plus, do you not think that they troll this site, hiding in the dark corners? ;)

Jack

16th August 2010, 20:57

I've only been in the continent like 5 times

I highly doubt you have much contact with working class people.

Bud Struggle

16th August 2010, 21:04

I highly doubt you have much contact with working class people. Maybe he means "incontinent." :D

Jazzhands

16th August 2010, 21:19

Almost--the TPers have put together a nationl movement and have gotten media momentum.

It's not a national movement, despite what they and the worthless, lazy media are saying. I remember the founder of the TPs said on freedomworks to "crowd the front of the auditorium to make it look like you have a majority" or something along those lines. He said that because he knew he couldn't actually get a large amount of support. They only look big because they shout much louder than everyone else. The Tea Party population is surprisingly not all lumpenproles. They're mostly people who make $200,000 a year led by people who make much more than that. Six-figure salary people, not the masses.

Hobbitgoth

17th August 2010, 00:44

I highly doubt you have much contact with working class people.

Travel was cheap...ish a long time ago.:lol:

727Goon

18th August 2010, 05:20

Kayser_Soso

18th August 2010, 13:23

Perhaps so many working class people are right wing because the left in this country is a joke, and because there are way too many elitist motherfuckers like you on the left.

If you want a perfect example of a "leftist" intellectual validating the right-wing myth of liberal "elitism", look no further than Morris Berman of Dark Ages America.

777

20th August 2010, 13:52

I just don't get it. They always complain, "Bah, the government aint good for nuttin'!" Yet when communism or anarchy comes up, especially in the US (I wouldn't know about Europe since I've only been in the continent like 5 times) they say, "Baw! That's socialist! Do you think we wanna be Nazi Socialist Communist Maoists like Obama, even though that shit contradicts each other?" Then, when we explain that we are actually fighting for THEIR rights and THEIR wishes they just sit there dumbfounded, then go watch Glenn Beck and start the tirade over again and talk about how capitalism gets them off. What I want is a straight answer from a right-winger, working class preferably, as to why they don't think communism or anarchy would make their lives better? The only reason I can see is indoctrination and misinformation. Right-wingers, if you're out there, please respond. I'd love to tear you guys a new cornhole.:D

For me, I rejected these concepts because as Hiero said "you ask them to voluntarily disintergrate their world (in it's ideological form)."

People like their identity and it seems the left want to eliminate that, to take it away from them.

Take religion for example, many leftists are militant atheists. For them, it goes hand in hand with being a communist. They shout and bawl about how religion causes wars and all that. But my gran has never started a war. She's catholic and she's never nonced a kid or beat up a gay. Her religion gives here comfort, it's part of her identity. She doesn't impose her beliefs on others.

When immigration issues come up, the left labels anybody with legitimate concerns as racist or even fascist. Not enough is done by activists to show the alternative. Instead, people talk about how we are all "citizens of the earth" and how we are "all the same". Well, that doesn't sit right with people because they are able to observe differences. They see two cultures competing against each other for jobs. Not enough is done to educate the working class to the real issues.

Which brings me to another point. Communism is an ideology as well as a political science. It goes hand in hand with self-education, reading and learning. A lot of its ideas are quite hard to grasp for some people because they are so radical and different. There is a tendency on the left for everything to be over-intellectualized. The dialogue is in such a language that it doesn't speak to everyday people that much. That goes hand in hand with the culture of speakers and lectures that most working class people cannot afford or have no interest in. People want their immediate needs to be met, they have no time to think when they need food.

Change is scary for people. "better the devil you know" and all. Practical grass-roots activism is needed that help people to sustain themselves and see that communist ideas can work. They want to see the alternative, not be told about it.

Hobbitgoth

20th August 2010, 21:58

Perhaps so many working class people are right wing because the left in this country is a joke, and because there are way too many elitist motherfuckers like you on the left.

So you're saying that because I believe my idea is a better solution to many problems compared to theirs makes me elitist? So does that mean that everyone is elitist because they believe their ideas are better than those of others? Hell, I bet that you uphold your beliefs above those of others, or do you just go along with what everyone says and bow your head? You can believe whatever you want, and I won't attack you for it. I believe that Communism/Anarchy (in general) is a better solution to a lot of the problems that plague the world compared to full-bore corporatist takeover. I don't attack my conservative friends for believing what they do, yet I'm just wondering why working class right-wingers don't look into the whole political spectrum instead of bowing their own heads. Hell, I'll admit that I've researched fascism. I didn't like it, but I did anyway just to stay informed.
TLDR Version: If you believe that if someone thinks their idea to a problem is better compared to others means you're elitist then you need to take a step back and evaluate what being elitist truly means. If not, then we're all elitist jerks because we protest and fight (a lot of times on the internet) for what we believe in, and believe our ideals to be better than those of Fox News. And yes, I fed a troll.

Hobbitgoth

20th August 2010, 22:06

777, I can see where you're coming from. I can't tell if you're attacking me or not, but I'll defend my stance a bit just to clarify. Yes, I am an atheist, but no I don't think religion should be abolished. If it brings happiness to people, then that's good for them. I do appreciate your comments on the lack of easily available information and a real presence of Communism for right-wing people to see. You're one of the few who've actually answered my question/rant and I appreciate it.:D

Thug Lessons

20th August 2010, 22:30

It's worth noting that the lowest economic strata of first world societies are overwhelmingly left-wing within their political context. For example, in the last US election, those earning less than $15,000 voted for Obama over McCain 73%-25%, while those earning $15,000-$30,000 voted for Obama 60%-37%, (these numbers are coming from CNN's exit polls). The numbers are similar in earlier elections. I don't have any statistics for Europe, but I suspect the situation is similar.

Of course, there are good arguments that Obama is really right-wing even when compared with European leftists, let alone genuine revolutionaries, but his campaign was definitely seen as a leftist endevour by the US people.

dearest chuck

20th August 2010, 23:32

perhaps the left in this country is a joke because so many working class people are right wing.

Thug Lessons

20th August 2010, 23:52

perhaps the left in this country is a joke because so many working class people are right wing.
As I just pointed out in the post above yours, this is not the case. They aren't all Marxist-Leninist-Maoist revolutionaries that want to smash capitalism and build a classless society, but there's no reason to expect them to be since they're living fat and happy.

RGacky3

21st August 2010, 08:20

perhaps the left in this country is a joke because so many working class people are right wing.

Perhaps look at polls. No they arn't

They aren't all Marxist-Leninist-Maoist revolutionaries that want to smash capitalism and build a classless society, but there's no reason to expect them to be since they're living fat and happy.

Excpet they arn't living fat and happy.

Alos they arn't all marxist-leninist-maoists in the third world either.

Comrade Anarchist

3rd September 2010, 02:44

I can't speak for every individual because unlike in communism capitalism encourages individualism, but for myself i despise glenn beck b/c he is a conservative and they are just about as ignorant as well communists. But to answer your question workers care about themselves and their families so they are seeking a system that allows them to work hard and achieve more. They seek a system where people are rewarded for work and mind not power. And communism and collectivist anarchism has always attacked their life and their ability to earn a living for them and their family. And government has done nothing but coercively taken away their money for nothing in return ( or at least nothing they have say in).

RGacky3

3rd September 2010, 08:55

It must of hurt you pretty bad to dig that deep up your ass to find that bullshit.

Capitalism does'nt reward people for work and mind, and it does reward people for power. Communism and collectivist anarchism NEVER attacked their life and ability to earn a living, (how could it), Capitalism did, by taking their jobs, lowering their wages, taking their homes and so on.

And the government has protected them, given social security, fire departments, sidewalks, medicare and so on, and you can VOTE for the government, (you can't vote for the CEOs).

L.A.P.

6th September 2010, 18:56

They're just easily fooled people that's why they watch Glenn Beck in the first place.:glare:

Hobbitgoth

7th September 2010, 00:02

Capitalism does'nt reward people for work and mind, and it does reward people for power. Communism and collectivist anarchism NEVER attacked their life and ability to earn a living, (how could it), Capitalism did, by taking their jobs, lowering their wages, taking their homes and so on.

And the government has protected them, given social security, fire departments, sidewalks, medicare and so on, and you can VOTE for the government, (you can't vote for the CEOs).

Damn, I was gonna say around the same thing. You got to it first though.:D

#FF0000

7th September 2010, 01:05

The thing that actually legitimately bothers me about Comrade Anarchist is that he literally has no opinions of his own or any thoughts developed beyond a few broad phrases that sound nice with a lot of profanity baked for half an hour at 400 degrees in a heavy glaze of self-righteousness.

CA, I'm not trying to flame here, but someone has to tell you and you need to listen.

You are a stupid person, and it isn't because I disagree with you.

Kayser_Soso

7th September 2010, 04:14

Bud Struggle

7th September 2010, 11:32

Whoa, anarchist who are self-righteous? No way.

Everybody's a bit self righteous on RevLeft. :)

anticap

7th September 2010, 13:23

Whoa, anarchist who are self-righteous? No way.

He's not an anarchist:

http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secFcon.html
http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/append1.html

A more accurate term for "anarcho-capitalist" is "propertarian."

ForImperium

4th October 2010, 19:16

Because this is in the Opposing Ideologies forum, where right-wingers are actually allowed to be in. And plus, do you not think that they troll this site, hiding in the dark corners? ;)

In regards to your inquiry, I guess one would identify myself as belonging to this demographic you speak of, the working class "right winger". My family is quite poor, but my father has worked hard so that I could attend university but I still have to work to afford rent etc.

You will find that those of the working class, my friends for example are usually critical of the left wing agenda, personally I feel that socialism has and continues to shatter the working man despite its' efforts to defend him. One can only look at the Working Mans' Paradise of my nation during the Revolution and during the early Soviet control and how many millions were consumed in collectivization.

From a general standpoint also, most left wing individuals; like yourself have this paternalistic, ironically I know ,attitude to the working class. Perhaps this may be to your guilt of your bourgeois up bringing or that you have this inflated opinion of yourself as you look upon the working man from your ivory tower.

See, why I like pretty much any other man whom has actually worked a proper day in his life knows, I have convictions, values which supersede me. What irks the working class if your efforts to tear the institution that define him, the family unit for example. Moreover your concern about political debate is irrelevant to the average working man or women, they seldom sit in the break room during smoko and discuss the whom their favourite Marxist is, or perhaps what really defines an *insert vague political philosophy*.

It seems like in your efforts to fight for guys like me; you guys just lost your way, I really mean that in the truest form. I'm disappointed, like pretty much every person from the working class in the political process. It seems like, like my father said, the more 'progress' we get, the more it seems we're getting crushed, financially I mean. To be honest, it is perhaps your failure to represent the poor which provokes us to do it ourselves, and it won't be under the socialist banner thats for sure.

Thats my 5 cents anyway.

Revolution starts with U

5th October 2010, 15:27

In regards to your inquiry, I guess one would identify myself as belonging to this demographic you speak of, the working class "right winger". My family is quite poor, but my father has worked hard so that I could attend university but I still have to work to afford rent etc.
So were we, so did my father. Food stamps, government aid, etc, all while my dad worked 12hrs a night, 6 days a week most weeks. (Luckily now that we're doing a little better, and I'm out on my own, we can actually see each other and get some father/son time... yay capitalism!) This is the problem with right wingers, it's an us v them attitude, and anyone who disagrees with you, obviously never had it as rough... right?

ou will find that those of the working class, my friends for example are usually critical of the left wing agenda, personally I feel that socialism has and continues to shatter the working man despite its' efforts to defend him. One can only look at the Working Mans' Paradise of my nation during the Revolution and during the early Soviet control and how many millions were consumed in collectivization.
That is true, and unfortunate.

From a general standpoint also, most left wing individuals; like yourself have this paternalistic, ironically I know ,attitude to the working class. Perhaps this may be to your guilt of your bourgeois up bringing or that you have this inflated opinion of yourself as you look upon the working man from your ivory tower.
Once again, you assume we/I didn't have it just as rough, if not rougher than you. Ever have "bring a dish" parties for no other reason than that you didn't have any food in your cupboards?

See, why I like pretty much any other man whom has actually worked a proper day in his life knows,
Don't insult me. I own a business. I don't get days off, unlike you (I assume). This ^ is what shit's me about working class right wingers. You speak insultingly out of ignorance. Never learn anything for yourself, just spit the party line.

I have convictions, values which supersede me.
Ya, me too. Like that people shouldn't be handed lives of luxury, while others scrape garbage cans to sustain themselves. What values do you have that everyone else doesn't? Get over yourself.

What irks the working class if your efforts to tear the institution that define him, the family unit for example.
^ More of a liberal thing than a socialist one. Well.. unless you fall into that camp that says "universal suffrage destroyed the family."

Moreover your concern about political debate is irrelevant to the average working man or women, they seldom sit in the break room during smoko and discuss the whom their favourite Marxist is, or perhaps what really defines an *insert vague political philosophy*.
THAT'S THE UNFORTUNATE PART!!! They rarely sit around in the break room discussing anything other than what they saw on TV last night. Why? Corporate propaganda seems to have convinced them that someone else can run their lives for you.
Here's an assumption I'm sure you're making that is way off. Anyone who claims they can/should run your life for you, is not a socialist. Socialism is about empowering workers to run their own lives.

It seems like in your efforts to fight for guys like me; you guys just lost your way, I really mean that in the truest form. I'm disappointed, like pretty much every person from the working class in the political process. It seems like, like my father said, the more 'progress' we get, the more it seems we're getting crushed, financially I mean.
That is us workers fault for taking what we're given, instead of demanding what we're owed. Don't blame an intellectual because you won't stand up for yourself.

To be honest, it is perhaps your failure to represent the poor which provokes us to do it ourselves, and it won't be under the socialist banner thats for sure.
Once again, if the working class "does it itself," it's socialism, no matter what flag they carry.

Thats my 5 cents anyway.
I'd give you a penny, nothing more. And even that is generous.:thumbup1:

#FF0000

5th October 2010, 16:39

The folks on this site that are active in real life are pretty much all the epitome of working class, it seems. I think it's just the kids on the internet that have no affiliation that are all paternalistic and dumb.

Lt. Ferret

6th October 2010, 21:15

revolution starts with u owns a business? oh i cant wait to line him up against the wall when the working class takes control.

#FF0000

6th October 2010, 21:36

Cool worthless post

Lt. Ferret

6th October 2010, 22:13

:laugh: but its cool when i get called an imperialist 24/7 :laugh:

Revolution starts with U

6th October 2010, 22:44

Better than working for some boss. Plus it's a self-proprietorship, I have no employees.
I knew quite early I wasn't cut out for wage slavery, I'm an abolitionist. :thumbup1:
(And we said you "work for" imperialists, regardless of if you are or not. Don't fret, I buy coffee, it's no better, considering how that coffee got to me. The first step to becoming a revolutionary is to admit to yourself what horrors people go through to provide you the comfortable life you live.)

this is an invasion

6th October 2010, 23:07

Who do ya'll think is more (potentially) revolutionary: the post-grad philosophy student that's read all of Marx and understands it really well, or the racist, right-wing truck driver or longshoreman?

Lt. Ferret

7th October 2010, 05:05

the truck driver is better for the conflict the post grad is better for ruining it after the dust settles.

#FF0000

7th October 2010, 08:38

:laugh: but its cool when i get called an imperialist 24/7 :laugh:

Yeah

RGacky3

7th October 2010, 09:16

or the racist, right-wing truck driver or longshoreman?

Well, not morons that make uninformed generalizations.

this is an invasion

7th October 2010, 09:20

Well, not morons that make uninformed generalizations.

My point ---->

Your head ---->

RGacky3

7th October 2010, 09:25

Its not longshore men and truck drivers that make uninformed generalizations (well some do), but in this case its you.

this is an invasion

7th October 2010, 09:31

Its not longshore men and truck drivers that make uninformed generalizations (well some do), but in this case its you.

Again you totally missed my point.

Luckily, I will break it down for you.

I think it's safe to assume that there are racist, right-wing truck drivers and longshoreman out there. I think it's also safe to assume that the aforementioned workers have NOTHING to do with Marx, Bakunin, the Left, etc. One may even say that this particular group is the opposite (politically) to the Left.

My question is: Who is more potentially revolutionary, the group I just talked about, or someone who has a good understanding of Leftist theory?

RGacky3

7th October 2010, 09:41

Revolution starts with U

7th October 2010, 13:49

How can you be more revolutionary than anyone?

Lt. Ferret

7th October 2010, 16:38

Yeah

being petty is awesome :thumbup1:

this is an invasion

7th October 2010, 21:25

obviously the latter, but whats the point, I could ask whos more revolutionary, a racist college student, or a longshoreman union activist.

the longsoreman or collage student label has nothing to do with it.

You might as well have asked whos more revolutionary, a right ring racist guy or a marxist.

Its a stupid question.
It's not a stupid question. There is a large portion of the Left that thinks what ideology you subscribe to makes you more revolutionary.

You prove this by saying this "You might as well have asked whos more revolutionary, a right ring racist guy or a marxist."

727Goon

8th October 2010, 00:36

this is an invasion

8th October 2010, 05:02

Whats the point of this question?

I explained it...

RGacky3

8th October 2010, 09:31

There is a large portion of the Left that thinks what ideology you subscribe to makes you more revolutionary.

What? I don't follow, does your ideology not make you more or less likely to take part in revolution?

Klaatu

10th October 2010, 22:02

I think the original question in this thread was "why do working-class people support conservative agenda?" I assume you mean tax cuts for the wealthy, for huge corporations, etc. IMHO, a lot of the attraction is that the right wing politicians have skillfully hi-jacked most of the religious people with whatever values they have, the most powerful (and divisive) happens to be abortion. All a right wing politician has to do is campaign on the anti-abortion ticket, and he will get millions of votes from the religious flock. Never mind that most of that flock is working class - they will sell their soul to the rich man (complete with tax cuts) if they will only just outlaw abortion...

That's why the right is so powerful in America. Take away that religious support, and the right crumbles to ashes.

Bud Struggle

10th October 2010, 22:12

What? I don't follow, does your ideology not make you more or less likely to take part in revolution?

FYI: there no "Revolution." Not a clue of it. Not a chance beyond a wet dream of some 16 yo. Stalinist RevLefters. So there are no people out there to ever dream of taking part in it.

Time for another worldview.

Revolution starts with U

11th October 2010, 01:57

Look up "squat in your own home" Bud. There is a revolution happening, the media just doesn't show it.
I do agree that a lot of internet warriors would rather ***** to some 16yr old then get out in the streets tho.

anticap

11th October 2010, 03:29

Take away that religious support, and the right crumbles to ashes.

I disagree. The religious Right is certainly powerful, but the level of indoctrination to pro-capitalist thinking is extremely high, especially in the US where the masses are inundated from cradle to grave with the message that the free market equals freedom. That message took root a long time ago and can stand on its own.

That's why I believe that as long as other issues don't present an immanent danger, we need to stay focused and strike at the root. We need to explain to people why capitalism is a negative system, not a positive one.

Likewise, when we attack capitalism we need to strike at its root, which is bourgeois private property, as opposed to flailing away at the outgrowths of capitalism for eternity. That isn't to say that anti-racism, anti-sexism, etc., aren't important, but that there is a bulls-eye in the center of our target and that whenever possible we should aim there rather than at the outer rings.

RGacky3

11th October 2010, 10:31

So there are no people out there to ever dream of taking part in it.

Time for another worldview.

Do yourself a favor and travel outside Florida, or read international news, people are getting uppidy all the time.

Time for you to get your head out of the sand.

Bud Struggle

11th October 2010, 22:10

Likewise, when we attack capitalism we need to strike at its root, which is bourgeois private property,...

I think the Capitalists have been smarter than that--the real root is PROLETARIAN PRIVATE PROPERTY. For a mortgaged up to the hilt shack on a 50x50 lot with a rusty Chevy in front up on cinderblocks and a broken clothesline in back--the Revolution will be betrayed.

anticap

11th October 2010, 23:50

I think the Capitalists have been smarter than that--the real root is PROLETARIAN PRIVATE PROPERTY. For a mortgaged up to the hilt shack on a 50x50 lot with a rusty Chevy in front up on cinderblocks and a broken clothesline in back--the Revolution will be betrayed.

While it may be true that mortgages make for poor revolutionaries, as the saying goes, you seem to have misunderstood what I meant by "bourgeoisie private property." I don't mean the personal property (house, car, etc.) of the bourgeoisie; I mean private property in the means of production. I stick "bourgeois" in front of it specifically to avoid this misunderstanding.

The root of capitalism is bourgeois private property, upon which it depends for its very existence. Proletarian personal property is non-exploitative property; it is not, therefore, the root of capitalism.

Bud Struggle

12th October 2010, 01:08

While it may be true that mortgages make for poor revolutionaries, as the saying goes, you seem to have misunderstood what I meant by "bourgeoisie private property." I don't mean the personal property (house, car, etc.) of the bourgeoisie; I mean private property in the means of production. I stick "bourgeois" in front of it specifically to avoid this misunderstanding.

The root of capitalism is bourgeois private property, upon which it depends for its very existence. Proletarian personal property is non-exploitative property; it is not, therefore, the root of capitalism.

Oh, I understood what you meant. But I think the way that Capitalists unversalized ownership of private property--though not of the means of production--has made Revolution vertually impossible.

The Bourgeoise has given the Proletariat all of the responsibilities of property ownership with out any of the sources of wealth. As long as people can own something they will never revolt.

GreenCommunism

12th October 2010, 01:10

Oh, I understood what you meant. But I think the way that Capitalists unversalized ownership of private property--though not of the means of production--has made Revolution vertually impossible.

The Bourgeoise has given the Proletariat all of the responsibilities of property ownership with out any of the sources of wealth. As long as people can own something they will never revolt.

third worldist scum. oh wait, you're a capitalist no?

Bud Struggle

12th October 2010, 01:15

third worldist scum. oh wait, you're a capitalist no?

I'm Capitalist scum. :)

RGacky3

12th October 2010, 09:22

Oh, I understood what you meant. But I think the way that Capitalists unversalized ownership of private property

THey hav'nt universalized actualy ownership, they've universalized debt as a way of control.

Bud Struggle

12th October 2010, 12:20

THey hav'nt universalized actualy ownership, they've universalized debt as a way of control.

You have debt all right--but you have actual ownership also. This is something fairly new in the annals of property--and I think that sort of ownership makes actual revolution difficult to impossible.

There aren't many posters on RevLeft that have a mortgage and a kid or two.

Revolution starts with U

12th October 2010, 15:05

There aren't many in America who have paid off their mortgage. They don't own those homes until they do.

Bud Struggle

12th October 2010, 15:39

There aren't many in America who have paid off their mortgage. They don't own those homes until they do.

Welll technically that's not the way it goes--but lets stick to the larger point--as long as people feel they have some piece of the action they are not going to revolt.

That's not to say that mortgages aren't a scam of a sort. You buy a house for 120 grand, lets say. You get to live in it--pay all of the expenses for it but you have to borrow 100 grand for that opportunity. Over 30 years you pay back the 100 grand, but also pay the bank 200 grand in interest. (Rough numbers here, of course.) You sell your house after that get you 120 grand back--and you are out 200 grand. Yippie!

(Now in time the selling price of the house will go up--but not the real value so you may get 150 for the house, but the value in origional dollars will still be the 120.)

Lt. Ferret

12th October 2010, 19:30

thats why ill only buy a house with straight cash (homie), if not ill pay the rent game until i die. its a ripoff but i hate interest.

Revolution starts with U

12th October 2010, 21:22

Ya, I was just listening to NPR the other day and they mentioned that over the last 40 years mortgage prices, adjusted for inflation, remained relatively flat. It wasn't generating any real equity at all.
I really look at a piece of property and don't see at all how it could cost so much. It's all overhead and beuaracracy.

Amphictyonis

12th October 2010, 21:26

Klaatu

13th October 2010, 02:28

I disagree.

I forgot guns. The right wing uses and abuses the 2nd amendment.

I have nothing against guns, par se, but I do have something against those who use the gun issue for political gain (American conservatives)

Klaatu

13th October 2010, 02:39

I disagree. The religious Right is certainly powerful, but the level of indoctrination to pro-capitalist thinking is extremely high, especially in the US where the masses are inundated from cradle to grave with the message that the free market equals freedom. That message took root a long time ago and can stand on its own.

You've got that right, comrade. That religious indoctrination carrys over into the belief that capitalism is "the best system..." and all of that. We must teach our children to consider the alternatives. Educate them about this early 21st century - how banksters and wall street gangsters have managed to acquire humongous amounts of wealth - while the less-powerful have been forced out of their homes, as their jobs have been taken by other countries that pay wages less than 1/10 of ours... Get the next generation completely pissed off at the self-serving capitalist - it's not like we're making all of this up. It is actually happening folks!!!

Hobbitgoth

13th October 2010, 16:31

Try explaining to them that the end goal of Marxism is to abolish the state ;)

I have, but they don't believe me. They're like, "Nuh-uh! Communists want to create a Maoist-Nazi state where nobody has freedoms!" I get angry and just walk away.:D

spice756

14th October 2010, 20:31

I just don't get it. They always complain, "Bah, the government aint good for nuttin'!" Yet when communism or anarchy comes up, especially in the US (I wouldn't know about Europe since I've only been in the continent like 5 times) they say, "Baw! That's socialist! Do you think we wanna be Nazi Socialist Communist Maoists like Obama, even though that shit contradicts each other?" Then, when we explain that we are actually fighting for THEIR rights and THEIR wishes they just sit there dumbfounded, then go watch Glenn Beck and start the tirade over again and talk about how capitalism gets them off. What I want is a straight answer from a right-winger, working class preferably, as to why they don't think communism or anarchy would make their lives better? The only reason I can see is indoctrination and misinformation. Right-wingers, if you're out there, please respond. I'd love to tear you guys a new cornhole.:D

The reason why people in the US are like that is media (magazines ,articles ,blogs ,news ,books ,colleges ,universities ,school text books, media,TV ,talk radio so on ) They do not see any problems with capitalism or understand if there was a problem ever in history .They pro-free market, pro-capitalism becuse no one talks about any problems with free market or capitalism .

They do not understand how communism got started and how labor unions got started and why.They do not understand what really is left and what they are doing.Again they are pro-free market, pro-capitalism (They do not see any problems with capitalism or understand if there was a problem ) do to the media..

They see the only option is liberal and conservative and we must have a free market and pro market with no laws or restrictions.No one in US understand what really is a socialist other than they think a bad guy taking power giving out free stuff or taking money from the poor and turning the country into a poor country.They look every where to see if he or she is a socialist has they really do not understand what is a socialist other thab bad guy and guys from USSR.

There no NDP or socialist in US has they are viewed has bad guy that want power and turn a country into a poor country.And free stuff ( social programs ) are USSR idea. And well USSR is bad guy in cold war we cannot be like them at all.That is what they think.