Sexism sold to children

[Meridian]

This shirt is (as far as I know) currently sold on Walmart:
http://i.imgur.com/nOcbZ.jpg

So... Yeah. The sorry thing is that these companies sell these clothes because they do make a profit. So, I don't know if it's mainly idiot parents who encourage it or just the general social climate which makes girls and boys want these kind of clothes. I also saw a t-shirt on H&M a couple of years back with the text "Boys are great, every girl should own one." There was also supposedly one about throwing rocks on boys (?), but I never saw it.

At the same time, young girls are being sold, for example, shoes with more and more heels. While I typically hear that there is nothing immoral about it as long as the buyers "want" to wear that, I think it creates a pressure and social-climate that's generally hurtful to children.

[Robocommie]

The shirt says, "Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them." That shirt is funny to me, man.

[Hiratsuka]

I smell a niche. 'Girls are stupid; throw rocks at them' shirts + ?? = profit. :D

But really I work with children and it's actually sad how many girls think it's okay to hit boys because "boys can't hit back."

[jake williams]

Yeah capital plays both sides, why wouldn't they? When your same corporation superexploits women, you need to try to pretend that you're not just blatantly misogynistic. In fact there's the argument that they're trying to engineer a divisive, reactionary response to misogyny... I could go on, but I won't.

[Wanted Man]

Oh dear, it's that time of the year again: someone sees a shirt print that has been around for years for the first time, gets offended, and starts a thread about the "sexism" inherent in this.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I'm a boy and I like to wear high heels. Does that make me sexist?

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'm a boy and I like to wear high heels. Does that make me sexist?

Yes.

[al8]

If I dip my spoon in a bowl of porridge, am I symbolically a veritably sexist **** Destroyer, since obviously a spoon is a phallus symbol and a bowl of porridge a vagina?

[9]

This is a travesty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[Invincible Summer]

If I dip my spoon in a bowl of porridge, am I symbolically a veritably sexist **** Destroyer, since obviously a spoon is a phallus symbol and a bowl of porridge a vagina?

Only if you're a post-modernist

[Il Medico]

I'm a boy and I like to wear high heels. Does that make me sexist?
Clearly.

[Telemakus]

It's interesting that "girls are better than boys" sexism is met with a string a jokes. Does this also happen when it's the other way around?

[Hiratsuka]

No.

[Il Medico]

It's interesting that "girls are better than boys" sexism is met with a string a jokes. Does this also happen when it's the other way around?
A T-shirt vs systematic institutionalized discrimination? hmm. Personal bigotry withstanding, there is no such thing as sexism against men.

[Telemakus]

A T-shirt vs systematic institutionalized discrimination? hmm.
Strawman I think, or you'll have to be more explicit. What response would a shirt which is sexist against women get?

there is no such thing as sexism against men.umm.... what? Is this supposed to be a joke?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Strawman I think, or you'll have to be more explicit. What response would a shirt which is sexist against women get?
umm.... what? Is this supposed to be a joke?

Sexism is sexism.

In this case, one reflects an institutionalised reality, and the other does not. Consequently one is irrelevant.

[Hiero]

The sexual construction is not aimed at boys, but at girls. Girls a not pigs. Ie they are cute, they don't play in the mud, they wear pig tails, sweet , innocent.

So this cultural item is infact upholding sexism towards woman, not boys. Boys are free to be pigs.

[Il Medico]

I Think the two above posters said it well.

Basically, sexism against woman is the institutionalized result of our patriarchal system. Shirts like this:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PkEIkpofWng/SgItAjj_eFI/AAAAAAAAWMs/JxR8-vPIepo/s400/sexist-thumb.gif
Only serve to back that up.

[Telemakus]

This still seems a bit absurd to me, but I won't continue the conversation in this thread.

[Adi Shankara]

Personal bigotry withstanding, there is no such thing as sexism against men.

You sir, are a fucking idiot.

I sometimes wonder if it's this callous attitude and culture of double standards that is the reason why male or boy victims who experienced sexual abuse or rape at the hands of females (which believe it or not, is more common than you think) are afraid to speak out; many of us have to deal with assholes like you who tell us that these things don't happen, that they're all in our head, and that even though we were children at the time, we should've "manned up and enjoyed it".

now read this, you ignorant fuck:

http://www.jimhopper.com/pdfs/Lisak_%281994%29_Male_Survivor_Interviews.pdf

as Takayuki said, sexism is sexism is sexism. eliminate ALL sexism. not just selectively choosing which sexism to attack. these men were raped by women. I'm sure they felt sexism first hand. you may say "lol it's funny because women can't rape men!" well what if you're a child? what if you're blackmailed? you think just because sex feels good it isn't rape? you're a jackass. and you help establish the patriarchal culture more than you bring it down.

[AK]

You sir, are a fucking idiot.

I sometimes wonder if it's this callous attitude and culture of double standards that is the reason why male or boy victims who experienced sexual abuse or rape at the hands of females (which believe it or not, is more common than you think) are afraid to speak out; many of us have to deal with assholes like you who tell us that these things don't happen, that they're all in our head, and that even though we were children at the time, we should've "manned up and enjoyed it".

now read this, you ignorant fool:

http://www.jimhopper.com/pdfs/Lisak_%281994%29_Male_Survivor_Interviews.pdf




as Takayuki said, sexism is sexism is sexism. eliminate ALL sexism. not just selectively choosing which sexism to attack.
Of course select females have personal prejudices against males - but this is far less common compared to the opposite. What people are saying when they claim there is no anti-male sexism is that anti-male sexism does not come in institutionalised form (for example, we don't exactly live in a matriarchal society that portrays females as the superior sex) like anti-female sexism does (we live in a patriarchal society which reinforces negative stereotypes of women and systematically objectifies them).

[Adi Shankara]

Of course there are personal prejudices of select females against men. What people are saying when they claim there is no anti-male sexism is that anti-male sexism does not come in institutionalised form (for example, we don't exactly live in a matriarchal society) like anti-female sexism does (we live in a patriarchal society).

I understand that and agree with that, but he said point blank "sexism against males doesn't exist." it'd be one thing if he said Institutionalized sexism didn't exist, but he said "sexism against males does not exist".

[Proletarian Ultra]

It is stupid to read this shirt as anti-male sexism. The very idea of anti-male sexism is rather stupid; stricto sensu so is anti-female sexism.

"Hear O Capitalism: Patriarchy Thy Biopolitics Is One!"

Sexism is one sexism or it is no sexism. Otherwise it is mere sentiment. Necessarily a real sexism will impinge in various ways against the several biopolitical gender-fractions. If you want to be simple minded you can read one of these impingements as 'anti-male' just like you could call an elephant a rope or a brick wall. You know, if you're some kind of legendary Indic blind hobo.

The print says that girls are smiley little things with pretty hair and boys are pure greedy appetitive id. It perfectly reproduces the ideological undergirding of rape qua social practice, on a kids shirt.

[Kayser_Soso]

Forget the t-shirt, if you want to know what is selling sexism to young children I've got two words for you- Disney movies.

[Il Medico]

You sir, are a fucking idiot.

I sometimes wonder if it's this callous attitude and culture of double standards that is the reason why male or boy victims who experienced sexual abuse or rape at the hands of females (which believe it or not, is more common than you think) are afraid to speak out; many of us have to deal with assholes like you who tell us that these things don't happen, that they're all in our head, and that even though we were children at the time, we should've "manned up and enjoyed it".

now read this, you ignorant fuck:

http://www.jimhopper.com/pdfs/Lisak_%281994%29_Male_Survivor_Interviews.pdf

as Takayuki said, sexism is sexism is sexism. eliminate ALL sexism. not just selectively choosing which sexism to attack. these men were raped by women. I'm sure they felt sexism first hand. you may say "lol it's funny because women can't rape men!" well what if you're a child? what if you're blackmailed? you think just because sex feels good it isn't rape? you're a jackass. and you help establish the patriarchal culture more than you bring it down.
Are you quite done?

Well, going on a tirade accusing me of things I never said isn't excatly helping your "The Doctor is the fucking idiot" argument. Nor is your seeming inability to read.
Here's a quote from you:

I understand that and agree with that,
This is what you said in response to Alpha Kappa explaining the difference between personal prejudice (which can be against whoever) and Institutional Discrimination.
So, I quote myself:


Personal bigotry withstanding, there is no such thing as sexism against men.
Did you see it? Lets try again.


Personal bigotry withstanding, there is no such thing as sexism against men.No? How bout now:

Personal bigotry withstanding, there is no such thing as sexism against men.Then again,perhaps you would like me to insert the magic word, though it would seem obvious at this point:

Personal bigotry withstanding, there is no such thing as [Institutionalized] sexism against men.There, better? Now scurry along and learn to read before you post any more idiotic rants.

[AK]

I think it should be mentioned at this point that we communists generally tend to only refer to sexism as sexism when it is institutionalised.

[Widerstand]

I think it should be mentioned at this point that we communists generally tend to only refer to sexism as sexism when it is institutionalised.

Do you? I don't. =/

[AK]

Do you? I don't. =/
Well, neither do I. But generally that is how communists talk about sexism.

[Telemakus]

Well, neither do I. But generally that is how communists talk about sexism.
Well, in this way it is consistent to say that sexism can only go one way. However, do you (not necessarily you in particular) really think anti-female sexism still is institutionalised (in the west)? I think that really the main thing institutions are after is profit - they'll adopt sexist appearance if it sells. From what I hear of Muslim nations (parts of them any way) there certainly is institutionalised anti-female sexism, but I don't think there's that much left of it in the west. There is still work to be done with respect to views of gender, but I haven't really seen much serious anti-whatevergender in the mainstream (not to say there's not a lot of stereotyping, but that's not anti() sexism).

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Well, in this way it is consistent to say that sexism can only go one way. However, do you (not necessarily you in particular) really think anti-female sexism still is institutionalised (in the west)? I think that really the main thing institutions are after is profit - they'll adopt sexist appearance if it sells. From what I hear of Muslim nations (parts of them any way) there certainly is institutionalised anti-female sexism, but I don't think there's that much left of it in the west. There is still work to be done with respect to views of gender, but I haven't really seen much serious anti-whatevergender in the mainstream (not to say there's not a lot of stereotyping, but that's not anti() sexism).

You got to be kidding me.

Expressive and direct subjugation of women isn't all there is to sexism. It operates frequently on the level of subtle social currents.

[Telemakus]

You got to be kidding me.

Expressive and direct subjugation of women isn't all there is to sexism. It operates frequently on the level of subtle social currents.
I just can't quite see what subtle elements there could be to anti() sexism. Can you give me some examples?

[revolution inaction]

I think it should be mentioned at this point that we communists generally tend to only refer to sexism as sexism when it is institutionalised.

i don't think this is true at all.
i think that some people on this thread are confusing patriarchy and sexism.

[Widerstand]

i don't think this is true at all.
i think that some people on this thread are confusing patriarchy and sexism.

Sexism is the belief that one sex is inferior to another, patriarchy is male domination. I don't see how they are not strongly related?

[Telemakus]

Sexism is the belief that one sex is inferior to another, patriarchy is male domination. I don't see how they are not strongly related?It was never implied that they were not related. The argument is that the term sexism does not simply mean patriarchy. As your definitions show, they are indeed distinct terms.

[GreenCommunism]

Forget the t-shirt, if you want to know what is selling sexism to young children I've got two words for you- Disney movies.
damn right i wish i could double thank your post.


However, do you (not necessarily you in particular) really think anti-female sexism still is institutionalised (in the west)? I think that really the main thing institutions are after is profit - they'll adopt sexist appearance if it sells. From what I hear of Muslim nations (parts of them any way) there certainly is institutionalised anti-female sexism, but I don't think there's that much left of it in the west.

i think i agree with this, there isn't double standards in the laws anymore. i think what is left of institutionalized sexism or patriarchy is remnant of old attitudes, individual behavior rather than laws biased against woman. also, i remember always seeing smart girl telling dumb guy what to do in educational videos, was that to empower woman? i don't know but it always pissed me off, i think when you see a dumb woman in a movie(which is for some reason often blond), there is always a smart/nerdish woman to counterpart this just like in scoobydoo.

then again, the dumb against smart character in educational video always pissed me off, so i guess if i was a woman i wouldn't be happy if the role were reversed.

i was about to argue that sexist t-shirt against boys are more acceptable, but i am clearly wrong and there probably is alot more sexist t-shirt against girls.

[Widerstand]

Right, but as I see it patriarchy is a form of, or if you want an application of, sexism.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I'm a boy and I like to wear high heels. Does that make me sexist?

No, but it could make you sexy. Nice new avatar, BTW.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Back to the sexist T shirt discussion. Young girls and young boys go though a "bonding phase" while they more or less figure out who they are. During this time they stay aloof from members of the opposite gender. There's a lot of semi-derogatory bantering that goes on during this period. Boys say girls "have cooties", girls say boys are "gross and disgusting". Hey, they're probably both right. Traditional or tribal cultures have same sex "lodges" or groups where a lot of this is worked out.We don't have this so the tension gets expressed in sexist T shirts.

When people get older there is a certain tension implicit in the "battle of the sexes". This would probably exist in any society. Like related sexual tensions, a society has to find a way of defusing and incorporating this in healthy ways.

[Jazzratt]

This is a total outrage!

[Kayser_Soso]

I'm not going to get deep into the debate here, but I would suggest that reverse sexism is kind of like reverse racism. Yes, racism is wrong regardless of who adheres to it, but racism without power is impotent. There may be a lot of non-white people in the US who harbor negative feelings against white folks, but the power is in the hands of white people, and thus it rarely harms anyone. But racist feelings in the minds who hold power over people's lives, for example, an HR manager, a loan officer, a police officer, etc., is a LOT more dangerous to society. This is what Tim Wise says and I repeat this argument any time I see some right-wing dork whining about why this or that group doesn't say anything about the NBPP or Nation of Islam or whatever. The fact is that these groups may be racist, and yes that is a problem, but they have absolutely no power. Not the NBPP, not NOI, not the Black Israelites. The problem is white supremacy, which in fact led to the creation of such groups in the first place.

Sexism is the same way. There may be some feminists out there who hate men, but what are they going to do about it? Patriarchy creates those feminists, and the patriarchy has all the power.

[Hiero]

I'm not going to get deep into the debate here, but I would suggest that reverse sexism is kind of like reverse racism. Yes, racism is wrong regardless of who adheres to it, but racism without power is impotent. There may be a lot of non-white people in the US who harbor negative feelings against white folks, but the power is in the hands of white people, and thus it rarely harms anyone. But racist feelings in the minds who hold power over people's lives, for example, an HR manager, a loan officer, a police officer, etc., is a LOT more dangerous to society. This is what Tim Wise says and I repeat this argument any time I see some right-wing dork whining about why this or that group doesn't say anything about the NBPP or Nation of Islam or whatever. The fact is that these groups may be racist, and yes that is a problem, but they have absolutely no power. Not the NBPP, not NOI, not the Black Israelites. The problem is white supremacy, which in fact led to the creation of such groups in the first place.

Sexism is the same way. There may be some feminists out there who hate men, but what are they going to do about it? Patriarchy creates those feminists, and the patriarchy has all the power.

Basically the power to descrimante in many fields, symbolically, structurally, culturally or economically based on racist or sexist attitude is not held by all.

It would be interesting to talk about his in regards to Korean shop owners and the antagonism between the shop owners and African-American customers. East Asians in the USA have their own history of being discriminated against by Whites (dominant power structure). Yet in the later half of the centuary when some Korean's consolidated economic capital and thus power to enforce their own racist attitude against another dominanted ethnic group. Lets say some African Americans generated racist attitudes against Korean shop owners, there is nothing they can do about it. Their racist attitude does not translate into power to discriminate.

Just putting your words into my own vocabulary to empahsis this idea. My description of the history of Koreans and African-American's may not be completly correct, so any corrections will help.

[Kayser_Soso]

Basically the power to descrimante in many fields, symbolically, structurally, culturally or economically based on racist or sexist attitude is not held by all.

It would be interesting to talk about his in regards to Korean shop owners and the antagonism between the shop owners and African-American customers. East Asians in the USA have their own history of being discriminated against by Whites (dominant power structure). Yet in the later half of the centuary when some Korean's consolidated economic capital and thus power to enforce their own racist attitude against another dominanted ethnic group. Lets say some African Americans generated racist attitudes against Korean shop owners, there is nothing they can do about it. Their racist attitude does not translate into power to discriminate.

Just putting your words into my own vocabulary to empahsis this idea. My description of the history of Koreans and African-American's may not be completly correct, so any corrections will help.

I have become convinced that the system in the US is intent on keeping black Americans at the bottom of the social ladder, so as to compensate and neutralize other minorities. Each works its way up to the next rung on the ladder, and even as they face ongoing discrimination, they let their resentment out against the black population. This is not only the case with East Asians; it has been true about the Irish, Italians, and Eastern European immigrants. Of course in recent years the black middle class has made some advances, which probably explains the shift of focus to illegal immigrants.

[28350]

Urg.

There is no reverse sexism. Sexism is sexism.
Sexism (and racism, for that matter) is a double-edged sword.
Sexism does not single out one gender to attack, it divides and dehumanizes people.
Saying "Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them" is sexist.
Saying "Girls are stupid, throw rocks at them" is sexist.
What we need to take into account is socioeconomic context.
Sexism has been institutionalized in such a way that it economically oppresses women.
When you're economically oppressed, shit goes down from there.

This example is trivial compared to other things, but it's not something that should be dismissed.

Advocating the disenfranchisement of men is no more acceptable than advocating the disenfranchisement of women, but one has a much stronger historical precedent. Women are economically oppressed. Oppression of women is something that should be more immediately fought, because it is more dire and widespread.

ya dig?
ps. pardon my relative incoherence

[Meridian]

Couldn't agree more:

You sir, are a fucking idiot.

I sometimes wonder if it's this callous attitude and culture of double standards that is the reason why male or boy victims who experienced sexual abuse or rape at the hands of females (which believe it or not, is more common than you think) are afraid to speak out; many of us have to deal with assholes like you who tell us that these things don't happen, that they're all in our head, and that even though we were children at the time, we should've "manned up and enjoyed it".

now read this, you ignorant fuck:

http://www.jimhopper.com/pdfs/Lisak_%281994%29_Male_Survivor_Interviews.pdf

as Takayuki said, sexism is sexism is sexism. eliminate ALL sexism. not just selectively choosing which sexism to attack. these men were raped by women. I'm sure they felt sexism first hand. you may say "lol it's funny because women can't rape men!" well what if you're a child? what if you're blackmailed? you think just because sex feels good it isn't rape? you're a jackass. and you help establish the patriarchal culture more than you bring it down.

The point is not that sexism against men is somehow worse or more frequent than that against women. Obviously it is not.

The point is that "sexism against men can't exist" is a fucking horrible political and moral stance. Its a metaphysical argument, it basically trying to dictate what the word "sexism" means without looking at the way it is used. There are people clearly saying they have been discriminated against, and feeling that way, including children in my family, and by all means would otherwise be considered to have been so, but its ridiculed by the left because they happen to have outward pointing genitalia. Why the fuck? Why make a distinction? Pointing out this double standard doesn't say or imply anything about sexism against women. That categorical distinction seems itself sexist, but worse of all it is ignoring real issues like the ones posed by Thomas Sankara I quoted.

Be against all discrimination or be against none. You people laughing at those t-shirts, in addition to having a really crappy sense of humor, don't realize what sexism actually is. Sexism is about real incidents, real instances where people are abused or unfairly treated, not some theoretical idea that applies nowhere outside your university. There may be a lot more such instances involving girls and women, no one is denying that. But I know for a fact that those sort of t-shirts have a bad impact in terms of self-identity and confidence among kids.

Peace out.

[9]

Back to the sexist T shirt discussion. Young girls and young boys go though a "bonding phase" while they more or less figure out who they are. During this time they stay aloof from members of the opposite gender. There's a lot of semi-derogatory bantering that goes on during this period. Boys say girls "have cooties", girls say boys are "gross and disgusting".

Yes, this seems really apparent to me, and it is a bit mind-boggling that people are still going on like this is an example of anti-male sexual oppression. It is a t-shirt for 7-year-old girls who run around on the playground shrieking "ew, boyzz, gross!!!" while little boys are off doing the same thing.

The outrage over it is really completely absurd.

[Ele'ill]

This shirt is (as far as I know) currently sold on Walmart:
http://i.imgur.com/nOcbZ.jpg

So... Yeah. The sorry thing is that these companies sell these clothes because they do make a profit. So, I don't know if it's mainly idiot parents who encourage it or just the general social climate which makes girls and boys want these kind of clothes. I also saw a t-shirt on H&M a couple of years back with the text "Boys are great, every girl should own one." There was also supposedly one about throwing rocks on boys (?), but I never saw it.

At the same time, young girls are being sold, for example, shoes with more and more heels. While I typically hear that there is nothing immoral about it as long as the buyers "want" to wear that, I think it creates a pressure and social-climate that's generally hurtful to children.


These clothes are offensive and sexist.

[Kayser_Soso]

These clothes are offensive and sexist.

But look at that PRICE!! It really is UNBEATABLE!!!

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Sexism sold to kids?

How much are they paying for it?



Seriously, I find most of the T-shirts mentioned are just not interesting (well, maybe the one about throwing rocks at boys is) I think it's mostly petty tears here.