Your thoughts and opinions on Osama Bin Laden: Hero or terrorist?

[Adi Shankara]

I wrote this as a response to another user, but I think it can stand alone as a thread topic:

if you look into the character created by the CIA named Osama bin Laden, you'll see that he is seen, from sea to shining sea, in many an oppressed nation, as a freedom fighter. only in America and the developed world is Osama bin Laden seen as a "terrorist". but in other parts, they see him as an almost mythical figure, Che Guevara like.

he fought against Soviet occupation. he fought against the US occupation. they bombed the Kenyan embassy in retaliation of the arrest of anti-government Islamic-anarchists in Egypt who were against the USA's puppet, Hosni Mubarak, not due to Islamic fervor or extremism.

now then, there is actually very little evidence of Osama Bin Laden being a religious extremist; there is even less evidence that he was involved in the 9/11 attacks (if you don't believe me, go to the FBI's most wanted list and show me where he is charged with that). at most, he expressed sympathy with sharia law, which is troubling, but certainly isn't the entire being of Bin Laden. he has a very loose affiliation with the Taliban, and in fact, they tried to sell him down the river in 2001, which is why he escaped to Pakistan in the first place.

most of his campaigns have been political, and very little of them were motivated directly by religion. the fact of the matter is, he is strictly political, and styles himself as a freedom fighter against western values (in favor of middle eastern ones) and capitalism (though he isn't exactly an ally of socialism).

so then, what say you? terrorist or freedom fighter?

[Sasha]

where is the "other; your an troll" button?

[bricolage]

neither

[Adi Shankara]

Note: I'm not agreeing with his many (rather strange and morally troubling) views, but to say that he hasn't been useful against imperialism is an understatement. also, you got to remember, when the NATO powers label someone a "terrorist", it should always make someone do a double take.


where is the "other; your an troll" button?

if you want you can create one :D though you have to spell "Troll" like "tro0l"

[durhamleft]

Well he's fighting a evil, corrupt and oppressive government in the name of an ideology that is evil, corrupt and oppressive, so I suppose he's neither, as fighting the US government isn't terrorism, though he certainly isn't fighting for freedom!

[Adil3tr]

Please, for the love of god, Osama Bin Laden is a little rich asshole with a 10 B dollar inheritance. He feeds on legitimate feelings of anger, but he is fucked up human being. If you honestly have any feelings other than hate for him, you really need to reevaluate the war on terror. The world is trapped between Osama's right wing, and the US's right.

[Adi Shankara]

Please, for the love of god, Osama Bin Laden is a little rich asshole with a 10 B dollar inheritance. He feeds on legitimate feelings of anger, but he is fucked up human being. If you honestly have any feelings other than hate for him, you really need to reevaluate the war on terror. The world is trapped between Osama's right wing, and the US's right.

I disagree with most of his views. I don't like his idea of what constitutes a good nation, nor do I agree with his personal life.

however, he has done some good work in the fight against empire, that can't be denied, and I guess this is reminiscent of the poll "do you support North Korea against imperialism"? where you can be both for Osama bin laden's actions while being against his politics, just like you can be for the North Korean people while against North Korean monarchy.

[RedScare]

You've got to be kidding me.

[durhamleft]

You've got to be kidding me.

Jack the Ripper? Serial Killer or liberator?

[AK]

Wtf am I reading?

Bin Laden is a reactionary - but it is still important to recognise that the creation and growth of Al Qaeda and similar/related groups are the result of imperialist meddling in the Middle East (but this is not to say that we should support them in any way, its is just an observation).

[bailey_187]

styles himself as a freedom fighter against western values (in favor of middle eastern ones)


This is buying into the other side of the "clash of civilisations" narative. Both reinforce eachother. You cant talk of a "clash of civilisations" unless the other "civilisation" is down for the clash.

[Palestine]

Osama bin Laden is an american made character. This is like the fictional character, when everything bad happens in this world they are to blame. Why?? To grow hatred against the Arab and Muslim world, and to warn the Europeans of the demographic threat that's waiting for them.

[Coggeh]

I disagree with most of his views. I don't like his idea of what constitutes a good nation, nor do I agree with his personal life.

however, he has done some good work in the fight against empire, that can't be denied, and I guess this is reminiscent of the poll "do you support North Korea against imperialism"? where you can be both for Osama bin laden's actions while being against his politics, just like you can be for the North Korean people while against North Korean monarchy.
You've got to be bloody kidding me.
Your saying that you support his "good work" against an empire? the same work that involved the slaughtering of 3000 US civilians, or the same person that orders men women and children to strap bombs to themselves in order to kill the "infidels".
He is a reactionary piece of sh*t who deserves nothing short of a gunshot wound. He was very happy to work with the CIA when it suited him.
He's nothing but a product of imperialism but that does not give him any sort of pardon to his actions or positions.

Seriously why are you still allowed post on the main forum after this type of crap

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Ahhhhh, falling into the ol' trap of "the enemy of my enemy........"

[iskrabronstein]

I considered being mature and not dignifying this shit with a response. Obviously, I failed.

Bin Laden is a reactionary piece of trash, whose "anti-imperialism" consists of impractical, uncoordinated attacks on innocent civilians, which necessarily includes the working class. His actions, beyond the indiscriminate violence which compose them, have indirectly resulted in the death and mutilation of hundreds of thousands of people through the provoking of imperialist war.

Any communist who seriously considers him an ally doesn't deserve the damn name.

[Delenda Carthago]

Bin Laden is a superhero.

[danyboy27]

bin laden is a sorry excuse for an human being, a fucked up individual who deserve to be locked up forever.

most of the people who got killed by his men/fallower where fucking civilian, all hail the anti-imperialism perpetrarted against the civilian of the bagdad market, thiose folks really deserved to be blown up into bits.

anti imperialism, fuck yea.

[Palestine]

Bin Laden is a superhero.

Just like Superman, Batman, or any other fictional character

[Tavarisch_Mike]

The Afghan people had, ofcourse, right to defend them selfes against imperialism, but that doesnt mean that the fraction of religeous fundamentalist was something to support. I mean after they defeated the soviets then the talibans got the power and i cant really say that it was some sort of progress.

Bin Laden is a spoiled billionary son, a religeous fanatic who likes to finance projects that includes murdering people that just happens to live in certain palces (9/11?).
Clearly speaking he is just fucked up and not anti-imp at all. Oh and btw i think hes hidding in Saudiarabia i mean spoiled billionaries dont tend to be tuff enough to live in mountain ares without servants and posch stuffs for so long. He also have kidney problems, and like the user Palestine menthioned above me its good for the ruling classes to never catch him, to allways have this hidden enemy that can strike whenever he wants.

[Widerstand]

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" doesn't quite work out in real life.

[maskerade]

Osama bin Laden is as much of a hero as the US government - not at all, in other words.

He was created by US imperialism and is fighting it by using the same tactics used against the people he claims to be defending - terrorism and killing of civilians.

How someone could be opposed to US terrorism and killing of civilians in Afghanistan and simultaneously support Bin laden's killing of civilians in the US I'll never understand.

Just because the American government created the circumstances for 9/11 and had it coming does not mean the American people deserved it...

he is not a hero.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

Is this a joke?
Bin Laden is a billionaire, an extremist capitalist who uses religious phrases for his perverse goals.

[Adil3tr]

I disagree with most of his views. I don't like his idea of what constitutes a good nation, nor do I agree with his personal life.

however, he has done some good work in the fight against empire, that can't be denied, and I guess this is reminiscent of the poll "do you support North Korea against imperialism"? where you can be both for Osama bin laden's actions while being against his politics, just like you can be for the North Korean people while against North Korean monarchy.

You have really lost touch in this respect. He wants the American Empire to expand. When Bush invades nations he becomes more popular. Osama Bin Laden is a fascist. A twisted and horrible right wing response to attacks against the middle east and third world. This man kills innocent civilians and gives justification to warmongers. Even the suggestion that he has done anything of value is insane. He has done nothing beneficial for the world. If you actually make the ludicrous suggestion that he is a real anti imperialist, then you scare normal people and have clearly detached from reality.

[Tifosi]

Anyone that leads a group that flys planes into buildings killing thousands of people for religion is a total hero in my book:bored:

PS you make some bat shit crazy threads Sankara.

[RadioRaheem84]

He was a tool of imperialists, only to go on his own to try to take down the hand that fed him.

He is nothing but one of many rogue characters that turned his back on the US. One could say he is a CIA rogue agent! LOL.

I look at him as nothing more than another Noriega, Saddam Hussein, and even some of the Contras that later went into drug trafficking and were hunted down by the law.

You know what pisses me off though? The US gets all huffy when a small group of people in the Middle East and South Asia hail Bin Laden as a hero, but there is not one word of condemnation toward Reagan or Bush I when they were calling the Contras and the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan heroes! They were the ones who were first calling Bin Laden and his men "freedom fighters".

The whole time THE LEFT was calling them mercenaries of ill rebuke. Now right wing nutcases like David Horowitz want to peg them with us in some anti-American alliance. FUCK THEM.

[durhamleft]

Can I also just warn people to be careful. In the UK for example it's a criminal offence to support the actions of a terrorist, so while you're free to your opinion, some opinions are now illegal...

[gorillafuck]

Fuck Bin Laden.

[TwoSevensClash]

He wants women to wear burkhas, establish an Islamic theocracy. His group fought against US imperialism in Iraq by killing Iraqi civilians. And much more. No he is not a hero. He is a murderer who killed tons of innocents around the world.

[Palestine]

Can anyone prove he even exists? aside from stupid videos, who for all i know can be from the CIA.

[Andropov]

he fought against Soviet occupation. he fought against the US occupation.
This revisionist narrative is ridiculous that somehow the USSR were indeed occupying Afghanistan.
As if the Mujahideen were somehow "liberating" Afghanistan.
The only thing the Mujahideen were doing was fighting to restore the property relations of Afghanistan where vast tracts of land held by the Landlord Mullahs were re-distributed to Peasants.
Not to mention the amount of progressive reforms sweeping Afghanistan in the area of womens rights etc.

[bailey_187]

Can anyone prove he even exists? aside from stupid videos, who for all i know can be from the CIA.

:lol:

[Palestine]

This revisionist narrative is ridiculous that somehow the USSR were indeed occupying Afghanistan.
As if the Mujahideen were somehow "liberating" Afghanistan.
The only thing the Mujahideen were doing was fighting to restore the property relations of Afghanistan where vast tracts of land held by the Landlord Mullahs were re-distributed to Peasants.
Not to mention the amount of progressive reforms sweeping Afghanistan in the area of womens rights etc.

They were fighting communism, they were a militia compiled in Arabic states to fight communism, by orders from the US government, they turned it into a holy war.

[RadioRaheem84]

The only thing the Mujahideen were doing was fighting to restore the property relations of Afghanistan where vast tracts of land held by the Landlord Mullahs were re-distributed to Peasants.
Not to mention the amount of progressive reforms sweeping Afghanistan in the area of womens rights etcThis.

Also, there was almost nothing wrong that could've been said about the regime that that the holy warriors were fighting against by comparison to what was there before or what the the reactionary killers wanted.

According to William Blum in Killing Hope, the successor to the Soviet sponsored leader of Afghanistan was said to have been a plant and a revisionist, which led to the many crimes that led the media to tarnish the image of the newly formed socialist republic.

Now, I don't advocate conspiracies, but if this was true or not is besides the point. The USSR hated the man and ousted him because he was a revisionist and committed rather horrid crimes. Crimes which are used by the imperialists to denounce the regime and claim their mercenaries to have been in the right in opposing the secular government.

[CJCM]

Osama Bin Laden: A hero against imperialism or a radical terrorist?
* Giant Sigh...*
Well atleast it gives me the oppertunity to link Michael Parenti's ''real history of Afghanistan'' article.
Link (http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2009/02/04/michael-parenti-afghanistan-another-untold-story/#more-3074)

[Chambered Word]

8/10 not a bad troll OP.

[Adi Shankara]

You guys miss it entirely. I don't like Osama Bin Laden. no where did I even say I agreed with him on anything. I just said you can't deny that he has done much to agitate empire. but no where was I fucking condoning him.

really. I don't support Osama Bin Laden. shit. all I said was that he was a product of the CIA and is seen as a hero around the world, and that he has done some good things which doesn't make him entirely bad, but if you noticed in the thread, early on I implied I thought he was a wacko. shit.

[Adi Shankara]

This revisionist narrative is ridiculous that somehow the USSR were indeed occupying Afghanistan.
As if the Mujahideen were somehow "liberating" Afghanistan.


lets be honest: the soviets were indeed occupying Afghanistan. was it a bad thing? I don't think so, seeing as the soviet Union wasn't a bunch of white russian guys, but a truly international union of races and cultures who fought in the name of communism there were afghanis were wanted to subvert the non-state in Afghanistan so as to join the USSR, and the USSR subsequently came.

there is nothing wrong about occupation if it is absolutely necessary, as it was in this instance (because Afghanistan was a former dictatorship with no real law), as was with the immediate post-war years in East Germany and Poland.

[Andropov]

lets be honest: the soviets were indeed occupying Afghanistan. was it a bad thing? I don't think so, seeing as the soviet Union wasn't a bunch of white russian guys, but a truly international union of races and cultures who fought in the name of communism there were afghanis were wanted to subvert the non-state in Afghanistan so as to join the USSR, and the USSR subsequently came
No they werent, they were begged to come and help defeat the reactionary relics that the Mullahs and the CIA were funding to try and over turn the Saur Revolution and the gains made for the Afghani working class.
It was the Afghani people that wanted them, in fact it took countless times before the Soviets finally agreed to provide direct military aid and intervention.
It wasnt an occupation.

[gorillafuck]

Can anyone prove he even exists? aside from stupid videos, who for all i know can be from the CIA.
Aside from videos? What do you need him to do to prove he's real? Walk up to you and say "Hi, I'm Bin Laden"?

[The Red Next Door]

Thomas, Comrade, Friend. Do you know that if Osama was president, the communists would be lynch on hot texas summer? Maybe the right wing that hate him so much, might join in. Seriously, he is not anti imperialist in anyway or form, this guy wanted create a fundmentalist domination of the world, with his fuck up morals and style of Islam, this guy shouldn't be consider a Muslim, let alone a freedom fighter, he is a wealthy capitalist reactionary pig, who use poor down trodden people, for his reactionary plans. He is manipulator and is part of the cappie system.

I said this before and I will say it again, The left have no fucking business what so ever to support someone who killed many of our Soviet and Afghan comrades,

If you wanted to fight against Imperialism support the motherfucking Resistance aka FARC.

[Adil3tr]

I just said you can't deny that he has done much to agitate empire

Yes, he gave them an excuse to invade two nations and go around the world arresting and torturing. HE HAS NOTHING NOTHING OF VALUE!!!

[Palestine]

Aside from videos? What do you need him to do to prove he's real? Walk up to you and say "Hi, I'm Bin Laden"?

I'm pretty sure he is fictional, or he is working with the US government, and this whole thing is just an act.

[gorillafuck]

I'm pretty sure he is fictional, or he is working with the US government, and this whole thing is just an act.
On what basis do you believe this?

[Die Rote Fahne]

Regardless if he is a fighter of Imperialism, he is a terrorist and should be brought to justice for the lives he, as the orchestrator, has taken. If he had targeted military bases and soldiers instead of civilians, then my opinion would differ.

However, he is a reactionary, he is an enemy of the working class he wishes to rule. It is the responsibility of the working class in the middle-east (Afghanistan and Pakistan most notably) to fight/resist him and the Taliban. The NATO forces in Afghanistan aren't like Cuba in Angola. They are there as a part of their imperialistic policies.

[Hiratsuka]

Heroes, in my book, don't target civilians.

[bailey_187]

On what basis do you believe this?

just a hunch

[bailey_187]

I'm pretty sure he is fictional, or he is working with the US government, and this whole thing is just an act.

lol, you know theres mutliple biographies about him, people know about his family etc

[gorillafuck]

The Bin Ladens are a huge and influential family, it's not like the CIA could just make up a new member as notorious as Osama.

[Adi Shankara]

Thomas, Comrade, Friend. Do you know that if Osama was president, the communists would be lynch on hot texas summer? Maybe the right wing that hate him so much, might join in. Seriously, he is not anti imperialist in anyway or form, they guy wanted create a fundmentalist domination of the world, with his fuck up morals and style of Islam, this guy shouldn't be consider a Muslim, let alone a freedom fighter, he is a wealthy capitalist reactionary pig, who use poor down trodden people, for his reactionary plans. He is manipulator and his part of the cappie system.

I said this before and I will say it again, The left have no fucking business what so ever to support someone who killed many of our Soviet and Afghan comrades,

If you wanted to fight against Imperialism support the motherfucking Resistance aka FARC.

I can agree with this entirely.

[LimitedIdeology]

On what basis do you believe this?

Because if something is said remotely resembling what could be reported in Western Media, it is automatically lies and imperialist. amirite?

[Tavarisch_Mike]

@Thomas _Sankara; Sorry for missunderstanding you, i did really belive that you supported him. But you say that he has done some good things, wich do you mean?

[it_ain't_me]

the real thomas sankara is probably rolling (his eyes) in his grave every time this thomas sankara posts

[RadioRaheem84]

The Bin Ladens are a huge and influential family, it's not like the CIA could just make up a new member as notorious as Osama.

Osama was a rich member of a Saudi oligarch family who found religion and with some connections was able to enter Afghanistan and command a rag tag group of Arab "Afghan" fighters against the Soviets.

No way could he be a creation of the CIA, but the CIA did create a monster in Laden by massively funding his campaigns.

If you study nearly every single terrorist attack that has rocked the world, it has some connection to training in Afghanistan due to the funding of the CIA (or as how they like to distance themselves by blaming it all on the Saudis and Pakistani intelligence).

[Qayin]

Whoever votes hero belongs in the loony bin

[Chambered Word]

lets be honest: the soviets were indeed occupying Afghanistan. was it a bad thing? I don't think so, seeing as the soviet Union wasn't a bunch of white russian guys, but a truly international union of races and cultures who fought in the name of communism there were afghanis were wanted to subvert the non-state in Afghanistan so as to join the USSR, and the USSR subsequently came.

there is nothing wrong about occupation if it is absolutely necessary, as it was in this instance (because Afghanistan was a former dictatorship with no real law), as was with the immediate post-war years in East Germany and Poland.

You're a Brezhnevite? :confused:

The same argument about 'absolutely necessary' occupation has been used by apologists for the US side in numerous conflicts, including the ongoing ones in Iraq and Afghanistan. Just saying.

[Adi Shankara]

You're a Brezhnevite? :confused:

The same argument about 'absolutely necessary' occupation has been used by apologists for the US side in numerous conflicts, including the ongoing ones in Iraq and Afghanistan. Just saying.

It wasn't a bad thing if Marxist Afghanis called upon the Soviet Union to invade.

[Adi Shankara]

the real thomas sankara is probably rolling (his eyes) in his grave every time this thomas sankara posts

and why is that? where did I say I agreed with Osama bin Laden on any of his beliefs at all? I was taking schadenfreude in his actions against the USA, that was all.

there are just certain users who always follow my posts to leave shit like this, but you know what?


...


haters gonna hate. <3

[Wanted Man]

What an embarrassing thread. I don't know what's worse; the original post, or all the replies.

[Adi Shankara]

What an embarrassing thread. I don't know what's worse; the original post, or all the replies.

You take shit too seriously sometimes.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

He is a terrorist.Plain and simple.

[IllicitPopsicle]

Oh, if this doesn't get revleft on an FBI watchlist, nothing will.:laugh:

[CJCM]

You guys miss it entirely. I don't like Osama Bin Laden. no where did I even say I agreed with him on anything. I just said you can't deny that he has done much to agitate empire. but no where was I fucking condoning him.

really. I don't support Osama Bin Laden. shit. all I said was that he was a product of the CIA and is seen as a hero around the world, and that he has done some good things which doesn't make him entirely bad, but if you noticed in the thread, early on I implied I thought he was a wacko. shit.

Osama antagonized empire?
What do you mean, radical capitalism is attacked by radical rightwing Muslims, who intended to wipe the branches of Islam out, is suddenly anti imperialist?
It is just capitalism fighting among itself, middle eastern oil conglomerates against US oil conglomerates.
In this way you could say that Mexico is fighting an anti-imperialist war because of the drug cartels….

[Chambered Word]

Oh, if this doesn't get revleft on an FBI watchlist, nothing will.:laugh:

You're a bit late. Cops have probably been watching RL for a while now.

[Widerstand]

Oh, if this doesn't get revleft on an FBI watchlist, nothing will.:laugh:

*off

We agreed with them.

[Wanted Man]

You take shit too seriously sometimes.

Coming from the person who makes 20 posts a day calling people paedophiles.

[soyonstout]

however, he has done some good work in the fight against empire, that can't be denied,
It can be denied and is easily denied by most serious people from revolutionaries to reformists to the imperialist bourgeoisie. Osama bin Ladens provide the justification for intensifying imperialist ambitions and thus creates pretext after pretext for neverending war--whether this is his intention is beside the point. Politics is not about intentions, nor is marxism. Osama bin Laden is a murderous imperialist gangster urging the killing of workers and workers-in-uniform as revenge for their exploiters' crimes. Killing people who live under a leader imperialist power doesn't make you anti-imperialist anymore than Wendy's employees murdering McDonalds employees would make them anti-globalization heros.

Osama bin Laden began his political career as a tool of US imperialism and the CIA and despite his formal independence from them today, he continues to serve their interests by playing their game and being the enemy to justify everything the US does.

-soyons tout

[IllicitPopsicle]

You're a bit late. Cops have probably been watching RL for a while now.

I meant with any definitive interest.

[Uppercut]

The guy's a mofo who promotes a theocratic system that oppresses women, beheads dissenters, promotes anti-semetism, and blows up buildings. He's anti-imperialist, I suppose, but that doesn't make up for Islamic extremism. Fuck him.

[gorillafuck]

You guys miss it entirely. I don't like Osama Bin Laden. no where did I even say I agreed with him on anything. I just said you can't deny that he has done much to agitate empire. but no where was I fucking condoning him.

really. I don't support Osama Bin Laden. shit. all I said was that he was a product of the CIA and is seen as a hero around the world, and that he has done some good things which doesn't make him entirely bad, but if you noticed in the thread, early on I implied I thought he was a wacko. shit.
Such as?

[empiredestoryer]

hes a terrorist just like most of the world leaders are

[DragonQuestWes]

CIA-puppet is how I would describe him. I mean if they know where he is, why don't they go get him? The US military just wants excuses to stay in Afghanistan.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

He is a terrorist. He has killed and brought terror to thousands of civilians and I won't do anything but condemn that totally. His actions are anti-imperialistic only to the most pathetic of third-worldists.

I'd not kill innocent people, just because they are from developed nations, in the name of anti-imperialism.

[Jazzratt]

I don't think his actions have been in the interests of the international working class in even the loosest and most tangentital senses. His soi-dissant anti-imperialism amounts to nothing concrete in the actual destruction of imperialist structure (as with most anti0imperialist 'heroes'). I agree with most people here who have said "fuck him" because, really, fuck him.