Would you rather live in North or South Korea

[∞]

Lets see here...

I voted South btw

[Delenda Carthago]

They both fuckin SUCK.

[Crvena-Zastava]

I wont lie and say I know plenty about the two Korea's, but I am very suspicious of the North and Kimmy...

I vote South.

[Delenda Carthago]

I wont lie and say I know plenty about the two Korea's, but I am very suspicious of the North and Kimmy...

I vote South.
http://www.physorg.com/news199502199.html

think again.

[∞]

http://www.physorg.com/news199502199.html

think again.

Still seems better than NK

[Delenda Carthago]

Still seems better than NK
still looks worse than Greece.

[Crvena-Zastava]

think again.

Lol, that didn't change anything buddy.

[bricolage]

http://spaank.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/kim_jong_il_juche_obama_parody_poster-p228675647812684767tdcp_400.jpg

[Invincible Summer]

Never been to S Korea, but the S Koreans I have met are kinda douchebags.


I vote North, just because I'm adventurous.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

Definetely North.

[bricolage]

I would rather live under Khmer Rouge!
All hail Marx-Lenin-Stalin-Mao-Pol Pot-Juche thought!

[∞]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxLBywKrTf4

[ContrarianLemming]

Excuse me while I not be an authoritarian socialist: S Korea has a higher standard of living, i vote south.

[meow]

Excuse me while I not be an authoritarian socialist: S Korea has a higher standard of living, i vote south.
only valid criterian when it come to which 2 evil.

i dont speak or read korean. i have no desire to learn. i have no obsession with korean culture. i dont want to live in either.

this is troll question.

[Wanted Man]

Still seems better than NK

Yes, but you've already determined that for yourself anyway, and you just want to keep banging on about this until everyone else gets bored. HURRRRRR.

[∞]

only valid criterian when it come to which 2 evil.

i dont speak or read korean. i have no desire to learn. i have no obsession with korean culture. i dont want to live in either.

this is troll question.

Its not, I'm curious is all.

[Invincible Summer]

only valid criterian when it come to which 2 evil.

i dont speak or read korean. i have no desire to learn. i have no obsession with korean culture. i dont want to live in either.


Okay so if you had to be exiled to either N or S Korea...

[AK]

In South Korea, we might actually have a chance of organising the working class. In North Korea, a lot of the working class probably thinks they either still have socialism or what they got is an inevitable result of socialism. So I pick South.

[∞]

I hope some of you watched the vid I put up.

[AK]

Never been to S Korea, but the S Koreans I have met are kinda douchebags.
National stereotypes :lol:

[bricolage]

In South Korea, we might actually have a chance of organising the working class.

It's pretty hard there too;

http://survey09.ituc-csi.org/survey.php?IDContinent=3&IDCountry=KOR&Lang=EN
http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?id=ENGASA250072007&lang=e (although this is just a 'bourgeois' source but I wonder whether bourgeois sources are alright when they attack South Korea not North Korea...)

[AK]

I hope some of you watched the vid I put up.
Blocked in my country...

FUUUUUUUUUU-

[AK]

It's pretty hard there too
I know that, but North Korean workers aren't exactly going to jump on the socialist bandwagon again after finding they get just another ruling class.

[bricolage]

I know that, but North Korean workers aren't exactly going to jump on the socialist bandwagon again after finding they get just another ruling class.

Of course, yes.
I just think it's worth in these discussions that while we recognise North Korea as an oppressive anti-worker state, South Korea has many many problems too. There is a risk of jumping into 'South Korea is great' rhetoric.

[durhamleft]

I voted South.

[Adi Shankara]

I'm strongly anti-capitalist, but I'm not an idiot.


South Korea.

[Adi Shankara]

In South Korea, we might actually have a chance of organising the working class. In North Korea, a lot of the working class probably thinks they either still have socialism or what they got is an inevitable result of socialism. So I pick South.

In South Korea, Communism is actually illegal...but at least you won't get a prison sentence for swearing out against Kim Jong Il, and you probably wouldn't starve...

in the end, they're both capitalist states, so I'd just choose the capitalist state I'm less likely to die in from dysentery or starvation.



http://www.physorg.com/news199502199.html

think again.


Extreme anti-pedophilia? You got to be joking...is that really what strikes fear into the heart of your average RevLeftist the most?

[Sendo]

Let's state the obvious, South Korea has a much higher quality of life, and then see who places ideology and official acceptance and tolerance of leftism over that.

[Delenda Carthago]

In South Korea, Communism is actually illegal...but at least you won't get a prison sentence for swearing out against Kim Jong Il, and you probably wouldn't starve...

in the end, they're both capitalist states, so I'd just choose the capitalist state I'm less likely to die in from dysentery or starvation.





Extreme anti-pedophilia? You got to be joking...is that really what strikes fear into the heart of your average RevLeftist the most?
yeah.cause its about pedophilia.


Dude,this shit is so NOT about pedophilia!!!Its obvious!!They use pedophilia as an excuse(in which nobody can declare different)to put chips on human beeings!!Wake up!

[AK]

In South Korea, Communism is actually illegal...but at least you won't get a prison sentence for swearing out against Kim Jong Il, and you probably wouldn't starve...

in the end, they're both capitalist states, so I'd just choose the capitalist state I'm less likely to die in from dysentery or starvation.





Extreme anti-pedophilia? You got to be joking...is that really what strikes fear into the heart of your average RevLeftist the most?
Dude, seriously, you gotta stop randomly bolding shit.

[Wanted Man]

Extreme anti-pedophilia? You got to be joking...is that really what strikes fear into the heart of your average RevLeftist the most?

ffs. Get over it. There aren't paedophiles waiting to ambush you in every shrubbery, least of all on Revleft.

[Andropov]

This question is the height of inane a-political muck.
Im no chear leader for the DPRK but to compare a country partitioned into two and saying 'which is better' or such drivel is ridiculous since the context of both the DPRK and South Korea differ to such massive extents due to various economic and socio-political reasons, with many outside of their domestic control.
It is as relevant as someone asking would you rather live in East or West Berlin, completely irrelevant.

[∞]

Blocked in my country...

FUUUUUUUUUU-

Well I sure as hell don't want to live in Australia, you guys don't even get porn.

[Adi Shankara]

Dude, seriously, you gotta stop randomly bolding shit.

Lmao, my bad. I corrected/graded papers alot as a TA this last semester, and I have this nasty habit of putting things into bold that I consider key concepts, even though I'm starting to look back and realize it's all shit that I'm bolding--I get carried away with the highlighter when grading papers :P

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

http://img2.moonbuggy.org/imgstore/north-korea-is-best-korea.jpg




North Korea without a doubt.

[durhamleft]

Lmao, my bad. I corrected/graded papers alot as a TA this last semester, and I have this nasty habit of putting things into bold that I consider key concepts, even though I'm starting to look back and realize it's all shit that I'm bolding--I get carried away with the highlighter when grading papers :P

Our Youth being taught by a communist?

This is why we should have supported Vietnam!

[AK]

Well I sure as hell don't want to live in Australia, you guys don't even get porn.
Yeah we do.

[Hiero]

Gaza or Israel?
McDonalds in USA or a rice bowel in China?
Being Black(Indigenous) or White in Northern Territory?
Being a Parasite or Proleterian?

So please tell me more about how you wish to latch onto the better side of expliotation and oppression because it is so fascinating. It really shows mentally and culturally which side of the fence you reall sit on.



in the end, they're both capitalist states,


So with a once more in-depth statements that you produce on this forum (sarcasm!), how would you extend from this statement to explain the material conditions of both countries? How would you explain how one is intergrated into the imperialist system and the other is blockaded to the point where the imperialist are imposing more restrictions that will further block the trade of luxury goods in and out of the DPRK?

[bricolage]

How would you explain how one is intergrated into the imperialist system and the other is blockaded to the point where the imperialist are imposing more restrictions that will further block the trade of luxury goods in and out of the DPRK?

I don't think this really means anything, most states in the world are not fully integrated into global capitalism and are actually prevented getting full access. You can be an isolated capitalist state and still be capitalist.

Oh and North Korea is quite well integrated into the PRC economic trade system so you are wrong, even by your spurious definitions it is not blockaded from the imperial system.

North Korea is capitalist get over it, if people want to make an anti-imperialist defence then ok there can be some grounding for that but calling it socialist is just deluded.

[Adi Shankara]

Gaza or Israel?
McDonalds in USA or a rice bowel in China?
Being Black(Indigenous) or White in Northern Territory?
Being a Parasite or Proleterian?


I take the side of the proletariat, hence why I call for the destruction of the North Korean government, AND the American one, to be replaced by a future Marxist socialist republic.



How would you explain how one is intergrated into the imperialist system and the other is blockaded to the point where the imperialist are imposing more restrictions that will further block the trade of luxury goods in and out of the DPRK?

say why North Korea needs luxury goods again? are those luxury goods going to the proletariat? be honest, now :rolleyes:

[Wanted Man]

I take the side of the proletariat, hence why I call for the destruction of the North Korean government, AND the American one, to be replaced by a future Marxist socialist republic.

He's criticising the bloody poll. The poll is about personal preferences (i.e. irrelevant shit), not about which side you take.

[Hiero]

I don't think this really means anything, most states in the world are not fully integrated into global capitalism and are actually prevented getting full access. You can be an isolated capitalist state and still be capitalist.

Oh and North Korea is quite well integrated into the PRC economic trade system so you are wrong, even by your spurious definitions it is not blockaded from the imperial system.

North Korea is capitalist get over it, if people want to make an anti-imperialist defence then ok there can be some grounding for that but calling it socialist is just deluded.

...
Ok more simple then. If they are both capitalist, why the international reaction to DPRK and not ROK? If it is just an aesthetics thing, then we have alot to think about.




say why North Korea needs luxury goods again? are those luxury goods going to the proletariat? be honest, now :rolleyes:


Wow, you have no understanding of trade. I will make it simple. The Obama administration is trying to strangle the DPRK economy by inhibiting on DPRK trade.

By the way, guess who Sankara would have supported?

[bricolage]

...
Ok more simple then. If they are both capitalist, why the international reaction to DPRK and not ROK?

Because different imperial blocs have different interests.
Iran and Saudi Arabia are both capitalist, ever noticed different reactions there?

International reaction does not determine the economic system of a country.

[Adi Shankara]

...

By the way, guess who Sankara would have supported?

contrary to popular belief, I am not actually the assassinated revolutionary who led the fledging Burkinabe Republic between the years 1984 and 1987.

[Glenn Beck]

I voted South because it isn't under military and economic siege.

I know you're all really amused by the little yellow man in the sunglasses but please try to stop coming up with a lame "communist" fig leaf for your racist obsession with a poor and isolated country.

Considering that there are no avowed Jucheists among this forum's regular userbase the sheer excess of threads on North Korea is clearly a result of you all being a bunch of gullible bigoted fucks who jump on whatever dictator of the month the U.S. media decides to demonize now.

[scarletghoul]

i voted North because i HAT FREEDOM

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

What a stupid thread, in the Politics section as well.

Shall I go and make a few more? "Israel or Palestine"? "America or Columbia"?

[gorillafuck]

...
Ok more simple then. If they are both capitalist, why the international reaction to DPRK and not ROK? If it is just an aesthetics thing, then we have alot to think about.
Iran get's very negative reactions from American imperialism. Does this mean Iran is a socialist nation? No, it doesn't.

I would rather neither because one is a state-capitalist dictatorship and one is an American puppet dictatorship.

Why the hell is this forum obsessed with North Korea these days? This is getting really annoying.

[bricolage]

Considering that there are no avowed Jucheists among this forum's regular userbase the sheer excess of threads on North Korea is clearly a result of you all being a bunch of gullible bigoted fucks who jump on whatever dictator of the month the U.S. media decides to demonize now.

This thread was created in response to the other North Korea thread which was started by... a supporter of North Korea.

[bricolage]

Why the hell is this forum obsessed with North Korea these days? This is getting really annoying.

To be honest this only seems to have happened in the last week or so.

[Soviet dude]

In a realistic sense, if you were not a 'Leftist' of the anti-communist variety, you'd probably get a lot of perks in the DPRK. They'd probably give you some kind of diplomatic job, or have you teaching English to university students.

In South Korea, if you were actually doing anything resembling class struggle, you would be watched the by the government and probably arrested and killed if you openly advocated communism, especially if you were pro-DPRK in any fashion.

So, if pure self-interest is the criteria, the DPRK would be a good choice for anyone not ridiculously hostile to that country because of something they watched on Comedy Central.

[CleverTitle]

South Korea, but only for the StarCraft.

Also, I don't want to be in a country under forced isolation. I don't think many people would argue that quality of life is largely better in the South, regardless of the reasons why. I'd prefer to be where the quality of life is better. Sure, I support North Korea on an anti-imperialism line, but that doesn't mean I'd be giddy to run off and live there.

[fatpanda]

I would live in South Korea and get organised with Leftist Fractions such as the Democratic Labour Party,NPP,Socialist Party or the KCTU Labour union.

[leftace53]

I'd live in the DMZ, stradling both Koreas.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

I'd say ROK, but I don't like Starcraft..

[Weezer]

I voted North Korea so I could finally see what goes on there.

[Dr Mindbender]

I think i'd have to live and work in each for an extended period before i could make an informed decision.

The ROK may have lots of shiny buildings and men in suits but that doesnt mean you will get a slice of the pie.

Critics will say there is massive poverty in the DPRK, but the likliehood is that any of us westerners who moved there would be given the obligatory VIP propaganda treatment ala Joe Dresnok.

[Os Cangaceiros]

The DPRK, but only if I get to shack up at KJI's house.

[LimitedIdeology]

In a realistic sense, if you were not a 'Leftist' of the anti-communist variety, you'd probably get a lot of perks in the DPRK. They'd probably give you some kind of diplomatic job, or have you teaching English to university students.

In South Korea, if you were actually doing anything resembling class struggle, you would be watched the by the government and probably arrested and killed if you openly advocated communism, especially if you were pro-DPRK in any fashion.

So, if pure self-interest is the criteria, the DPRK would be a good choice for anyone not ridiculously hostile to that country because of something they watched on Comedy Central.

Until you say something remotely against the ruling regime. Then it's off to the camps with you.

[Soviet dude]

Until you say something remotely against the ruling regime. Then it's off to the camps with you.

1. You don't know this at all.

2. You believe and say things about the DPRK that have no basis in fact. This was shown on the previous thread, where the ridiculous mass-media propaganda you repeated was exposed for what it is: lies.

People who hold to anti-DPRK views without regards to anything factual, IMHO, are closest racists.

[Os Cangaceiros]

1. You don't know this at all.

2. You believe and say things about the DPRK that have no basis in fact. This was shown on the previous thread, where the ridiculous mass-media propaganda you repeated was exposed for what it is: lies.

People who hold to anti-DPRK views without regards to anything factual, IMHO, are closest racists.

There's actually mountains of evidence to suggest that DPRK authorities have engaged in behavior that would've elicited stunned outrage on this board had U.S. authorities committed them. The problem is that DPRK apologists will simply excuse away any of those reports as fabrications of "bourgeois media" and propaganda, despite the fact that plenty of N. Korean refugees have reported on what they experienced in N. Korea, including former guards in the prison camps there. These people are explained away as mere tools of imperialist capitalism, however, while the handful of people who have defected/infiltrated the DPRK and have come back with positive reports are held up and exhalted as messengers of the god's honest truth.

[∞]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxLBywKrTf4

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Crux]

Out of convenience S.Korea. I'd rather not have to work underground and there seem to be a rather sizeable anti-stalinist left and very interesting and militant union movement in S.Korea.

[scarletghoul]

Any serious revolutionary or even militant activity would have to be organised secretively or completely underground in South Korea.

Guess you'd be alright then :lol:

[Crux]

Any serious revolutionary or even militant activity would have to be organised secretively or completely underground in South Korea.

Guess you'd be alright then :lol:
WITH GUNZ! Am I riite? :lol:
Nice going in completly dismissing existing worker militancy though.

[scarletghoul]

WITH GUNZ! Am I riite? :lol:
Nice going in completly dismissing existing worker militancy though.
What ? You are the one somehow ignoring the extremely repressive government response to any worker militancy. Yes it exists, but not because the lovely strawberry southkorean democratic state allowed it to; it exists from the Korean workers' heroic struggle and resistance in the face of one of the most repressive anti-worker regimes on the planet.

I hate to soil your rosy picture of US-occupied Korea, but it's not a safehaven for revolutionary workers' movements. If it was it would have been destroyed long ago. You are deluded.

[Crux]

What ? You are the one somehow ignoring the extremely repressive government response to any worker militancy. Yes it exists, but not because the lovely strawberry southkorean democratic state allowed it to; it exists from the Korean workers' heroic struggle and resistance in the face of one of the most repressive anti-worker regimes on the planet.

I hate to soil your rosy picture of US-occupied Korea, but it's not a safehaven for revolutionary workers' movements. If it was it would have been destroyed long ago. You are deluded.
Did I say the post-fascist regime of SK is a "safe haven"? Sorry to spoil your strawman but I said no such thing. I do believe, with some justification, is more repressive. Oh and before you go build another strawman notice how I say "more repressive" not just "worse".

[LimitedIdeology]

1. You don't know this at all.

2. You believe and say things about the DPRK that have no basis in fact. This was shown on the previous thread, where the ridiculous mass-media propaganda you repeated was exposed for what it is: lies.

People who hold to anti-DPRK views without regards to anything factual, IMHO, are closest racists.

Really? As I recall, most people shared my disbelief at your portrayal of conditions in North Korea.

Unless you wanna get into an epistemological discussion, which would be fun.

Yes, but, when anyone gives you facts, you ignore them as "propaganda" or some such excuse.

[Soviet dude]

Really? As I recall, most people shared my disbelief at your portrayal of conditions in North Korea.

Disbelief isn't evidence of anything. Tons of people in America disbelieve in evolution. It doesn't mean anything.


Unless you wanna get into an epistemological discussion, which would be fun.There is no need to get into a philosophical discussion. You quoted "facts" which are literally and demonstrably made up propaganda. I showed exactly how they are. I even pointed out an example that is a complete and total lie before you even posted it as "proof". One would have to believe you literally don't even read the things you reply to, as if you are simply incapable of comprehending someone saying something that doesn't agree with the mass-media propaganda you have been fed.


Yes, but, when anyone gives you facts, you ignore them as "propaganda" or some such excuse.This is literally hysterical. I responded to every one of your completely bogus "facts" in some detail. I literally debunked one of your "facts" before you even brought it up as a "fact," which you didn't even respond. It is as if you are literally incapable of even reading what other people write.

I would submit to any rational reader here this is just how extreme the brainwashing is in some cases. LimitedIdeology is literally incapable of even reading and responding to a discussion on the sources of his "facts." He literally believes them to such an extent that they are beyond any sort of discussion, and thinks you must be in the one who is impervious to new information, when LimitedIdeology can not even engage in a dialog about these supposed "facts."

Let's go back to the claim I refuted before LimitedIdeology even used it as a "fact," namely that Kim Jong-Il drinks $650 bottles of cognac. Let's imagine for a second that there was a similar claim about Obama. The only source for this claim, is a Muslim in the Middle East, writing under a false name. He wrote a book, published by an extremely anti-American publishing company, that claims he was Obama's cook. The book also further claims that he routinely discussed issues of national security and foreign policy with Obama, and that Obama would do things like go jet-skying with him often, and he went to naked dance parties with him all the time (yes, this is what "Kenji Fujimoto" says he did all the time with Kim Jong-Il). He also claims that he escaped the country to go back to the Middle East with some hair-brained scheme about needing to fetch ingredients to cook a bad-ass meal for Obama. He also claims to miss life back in America, because of all the wild parties and shit he had in the White House.

Would anyone in their right mind believe any of this stuff?

It only becomes "believable" because people have been conditioned by mainstream media propaganda to just accept these ideas, without any sort of factual basis. It is just "known" that Kim Jong-Il is crazy, and is "So Ronery" and whatever other racist imagery can be concocted. So LimitedIdeology comes here, and does a google search to validate things he already believes about the DPRK, but hasn't even the foggiest clue where these claims actually come from. So he doesn't even bother participating on a completely legitimate question of the believability on the sources, which is a routine thing done with any sort of field of inquiry. Yet somehow I am the dogmatic person who dismisses contrary views as propaganda, without any thought given whatsoever.

I can't really believe mass media propaganda can be this effective. In fact, most normal, non-political people I've met seem quite open to alternative views about the DPRK. They acknowledge their uncertainty about where the little information that they know is coming from. They are curious to learn what other views exist, and often after being exposed to them, come to their own understanding that is very different from what the mass media is saying. Yet here of all places, on a forum inhabited by people who say they are opposed to capitalism and imperialism, you find an unshakable faith in the views and ideas promoted by the very same people (the bourgeoisie) they claim to hate and want to overthrow. How is this even possible?

The Left in America is in bad shape.

[Soviet dude]

There's actually mountains of evidence to suggest that DPRK authorities have engaged in behavior that would've elicited stunned outrage on this board had U.S. authorities committed them.

Feel free to post any of it.


The problem is that DPRK apologists will simply excuse away any of those reports as fabrications of "bourgeois media" and propagandaThen don't consider "DPRK apologists" your audience. Consider it the silent readers of this thread, who are interested in hearing both sides. If you can make the "DPRK apologists" look bad, do it. Because right now, I would think any unbiased reader of this discussion could only come to the conclusion that the other side hates the DPRK without any evidence whatsoever, they have actually been conditioned to do so by the racist capitalist mass media caricatures of Kim Jong-Il, and that they actually know next to nothing that could be considered factual about the country. Meanwhile, the views of the "DPRK apologists" are based on the work of famous scholars like Bruce Cumings and Martin Hart-Landsberg, both widely acknowledged experts in their fields.

[bie]

An interesting article about human rights abuse on Korean Peninsula by KFA (UK).


THE REAL HUMAN

RIGHTS VIOLATORS ON

THE KOREAN

PENINSULA

The Western media and some liberal groups accuse the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea of “human rights violations”. However the real violator of human rights on the Korean peninsula is the south Korean dictatorial regime which is fascist and is a creation and puppet of outside forces notably the USA.

Here are some recent examples of repression in south Korea.Recently international press agencies such as AP and AFP reported that South Korean court Wednesday jailed a college lecturer for 10 years after convicting him of spying for North Korea over almost two decades.

The 37-year-old, identified only by his family name Lee, was sentenced after breaching the national security law.

As well as the jail term, the court also fined Lee 31 million won (28,000 dollars), Yonhap news agency reported.

South Korean official data shows that more than 4.500 people have falsely accused of spying for the DPRK since 1948



The south Korean Federation of University Student Councils (Hanchongryon) issued a statement on December 31 last year at which it denounced such fascist action of the authorities as arresting the former chairperson of the organization.

Recalling that on December 30 the fascist police walked away by force Song Hyo Won, chairperson of the 13th-term Hanchongryon, who had participated in the “72-hour emergency people’s action”, the statement declared that the suppression of Hanchongryon is intolerable as it is precisely an all-out repression of justice and conscience.


It noted that the dictatorial regime should understand that it can never turn back the wheel of history advancing toward justice and progress no matter how desperately it is trying to stem the trend of the times by invoking evil laws including the “National Security Law” and mobilizing the security forces.

It demanded the authorities set free Song at once and abolish the NSL.

The south Korean puppet police on Jan. 6 arrested Kwon Ho Yong, a media man of the “Socialist Workers Newspaper”, on the charge of the violation of the notorious “Security Law”.
That day policemen in plain clothes belonging to the “Security Investigation Group” of the puppet National Police Agency broke into his office in Yongdungpho, Seoul, and arrested him before taking him to its “anti-communist section”.

The fascist police resorted to such repressive actions in October last year as forcibly searching his office and house and issuing summons to appear at the police station. They perpetrated the recent tyrannical action against him when he came out in protest against the police suppression, laying bare the injustice of the NSL.

The south Korean “national security law” and “Anti Communist Law” stipulate a minimum of 7 years imprisonment for those found guilty of “leftist pro north activities”.The maximum sentence is death.Communist parties are illegal in south Korea.

The past south Korean puppet fascist regimes murdered the leaders of the Revolutionary Party for Reunification Kim Jong Tae and Choi Yong Do. They later killed other members of the RPR leadership.In the 1st and 2nd “Peoples Revolutionary Party” incidents the south Korean regime murdered activists including 8 people in the 2nd “Peoples Revolutionary Party incident.

South Korea is occupied by US troops who regularly commit robbery, violence, arson and rape. In 2002 US troops ran over south Korean schoolgirls Sin Hyo Sun and Sim Mi Son in an armoured personnel carrier and killed them.

South Korea is a human rights desert. UK KFA calls on human rights activists to campaign against human rights violations by the south Korean regime and the US troops there.

UK KFA January 23rd 2010

[Adi Shankara]

An interesting article about human rights abuse on Korean Peninsula by KFA (UK).

yes, interesting article, but the fact the Republic of Korea commits human rights abuses doesn't make it any less true that the DPRK does as well.

[Coggeh]

Seeing as I'd be in prison if i lived in N.Korea then I'd have to pick south Korea just by general logic

[LimitedIdeology]

Disbelief isn't evidence of anything. Tons of people in America disbelieve in evolution. It doesn't mean anything.

There is no need to get into a philosophical discussion. You quoted "facts" which are literally and demonstrably made up propaganda. I showed exactly how they are. I even pointed out an example that is a complete and total lie before you even posted it as "proof". One would have to believe you literally don't even read the things you reply to, as if you are simply incapable of comprehending someone saying something that doesn't agree with the mass-media propaganda you have been fed.

This is literally hysterical. I responded to every one of your completely bogus "facts" in some detail. I literally debunked one of your "facts" before you even brought it up as a "fact," which you didn't even respond. It is as if you are literally incapable of even reading what other people write.

I would submit to any rational reader here this is just how extreme the brainwashing is in some cases. LimitedIdeology is literally incapable of even reading and responding to a discussion on the sources of his "facts." He literally believes them to such an extent that they are beyond any sort of discussion, and thinks you must be in the one who is impervious to new information, when LimitedIdeology can not even engage in a dialog about these supposed "facts."

Let's go back to the claim I refuted before LimitedIdeology even used it as a "fact," namely that Kim Jong-Il drinks $650 bottles of cognac. Let's imagine for a second that there was a similar claim about Obama. The only source for this claim, is a Muslim in the Middle East, writing under a false name. He wrote a book, published by an extremely anti-American publishing company, that claims he was Obama's cook. The book also further claims that he routinely discussed issues of national security and foreign policy with Obama, and that Obama would do things like go jet-skying with him often, and he went to naked dance parties with him all the time (yes, this is what "Kenji Fujimoto" says he did all the time with Kim Jong-Il). He also claims that he escaped the country to go back to the Middle East with some hair-brained scheme about needing to fetch ingredients to cook a bad-ass meal for Obama. He also claims to miss life back in America, because of all the wild parties and shit he had in the White House.

Would anyone in their right mind believe any of this stuff?

It only becomes "believable" because people have been conditioned by mainstream media propaganda to just accept these ideas, without any sort of factual basis. It is just "known" that Kim Jong-Il is crazy, and is "So Ronery" and whatever other racist imagery can be concocted. So LimitedIdeology comes here, and does a google search to validate things he already believes about the DPRK, but hasn't even the foggiest clue where these claims actually come from. So he doesn't even bother participating on a completely legitimate question of the believability on the sources, which is a routine thing done with any sort of field of inquiry. Yet somehow I am the dogmatic person who dismisses contrary views as propaganda, without any thought given whatsoever.

I can't really believe mass media propaganda can be this effective. In fact, most normal, non-political people I've met seem quite open to alternative views about the DPRK. They acknowledge their uncertainty about where the little information that they know is coming from. They are curious to learn what other views exist, and often after being exposed to them, come to their own understanding that is very different from what the mass media is saying. Yet here of all places, on a forum inhabited by people who say they are opposed to capitalism and imperialism, you find an unshakable faith in the views and ideas promoted by the very same people (the bourgeoisie) they claim to hate and want to overthrow. How is this even possible?

The Left in America is in bad shape.

You seem to know a lot about who I am based off an internet forum. I must have pissed you off dearly to make you write a tirade as grandiose as that.

In fact, it kinda reminds me of the speeches of Athenian demogouges used to incite the polity toward a course of action that is utterly senseless.

It concerns me greatly that you posses the views that you do? How you froth at the mouth at me for saying that North Korea isn't some great bastion for socialism holding out against imperialism. How the State tortures political prisoners, executes dissenters, reserves luxury items for the elite. It isn't the mass media who spew this. It's something that has been documented by journalists who have visited North Korea, on fucking video praising KJI as some sort of God, how everyone in the world bows to his glory.

It hate to say this, but I worry for people like you. So adamant in holding onto your ideology that you would probably kill to keep it.

[Adi Shankara]

That's another thing: if you're a homosexual comrade, you'd have to choose South Korea, for your sexual orientation in North Korea can land you a "Rehabilitation" sentence, which doesn't sound very good at all.

[Soviet dude]

You seem to know a lot about who I am based off an internet forum.

I never claimed I know anything about you as a person, just made some observations based on how you choose to have a dialog on this forum.


I must have pissed you off dearly to make you write a tirade as grandiose as that.In fact, that is not the case. The point of what I wrote was to point out to other people just how warped the sense of reality of others can be. You turn trying to have a dialog about "facts" you present into somehow other people closed-minded and unwilling to consider new information. Any rational person reading the exchange would have to wonder who is actually unwilling to entertain new ideas and have a rational, reasonable discussion about the source of various claims presented.


In fact, it kinda reminds me of the speeches of Athenian demogouges used to incite the polity toward a course of action that is utterly senseless. This is quite bizarre, as an am not inciting anyone to anything. The only thing I have done is question the mass-media propaganda that is propagated as "facts."


It concerns me greatly that you posses the views that you do?It concerns me greatly anyone claiming to be opposed to capitalism can be so willing to get behind literally anything the imperialist press says, no matter how far-fetched an unbelievable. The only comparison I can think of is the Birthers.


How you froth at the mouth at me for saying that North Korea isn't some great bastion for socialism holding out against imperialism.I never attacked you in any fashion for any such thing. What I did was very thoroughly demonstrate no rational person could expected to be persuaded by the "facts" you presented, even with a cursory examination.


How the State tortures political prisoners, executes dissenters, reserves luxury items for the elite.Again, I ask the readers to note how LimitedIdeology simply does not even acknowledge the possibility the mass-media propaganda he has presented to us can be a subject open to discussion. It is taken literally on faith, as an axiom from we are to have a discussion. It literally can't even be questioned in his mind, and he doesn't even bother to offer the slightest shred of evidence for these charges anymore. He merely repeats them, like some kind of bot.


It isn't the mass media who spew this.Yes, it is. That you could claim otherwise is literally astounding to me. The "facts" you presented earlier literally all came from mass media sources, quoting completely and utterly unreliable, even anonymous, sources.


It's something that has been documented by journalists who have visited North Korea1. Journalists work for the mass media. The are their primary, on the ground agents.

2. No journalist ever documented even a single on of the "facts" you presented. If you had bothered to even read your own sources (which I highly doubt), you would know this.


on fucking video praising KJI as some sort of God, how everyone in the world bows to his glory.The readers should notice how LimitedIdeology is now shifting claims around. He will, for instance, never even bother to defend his belief that Kim Jong-Il drinks $650 bottles of cognac. He will never actually discuss the completely and utterly bogus source of information behind this claim, yet LimitedIdeology will no doubt continue repeating this claim for a very, very long time, acting completely oblivious to the fact that this claim is a total fraud. This shows LimitedIdeology is not only not open to actually having a dialog about the DPRK, but is completely unwilling to even reconsider anything he actually presently believes about this country. The only people I've ever run into who have a mindset like this online are Young Earth Creationists.


It hate to say this, but I worry for people like you.I worry for people like you who claim to represent the Left, yet in practice have a seemingly unshakable faith in any and all pronouncements of the capitalist mass media. To think that most of the Left in this country have a mindset similar to yours, that is just so impenetrable to information that doesn't fit within the imperialist narratives, is a frightening aspect to me, and tells me revolution is not going to happen here anytime soon.


So adamant in holding onto your ideology that you would probably kill to keep it.Now this is just outright bizarre. How could anything I have said possibly be construed as wanting to kill you or anyone else? Are you insane?

[Soviet dude]

That's another thing: if you're a homosexual comrade, you'd have to choose South Korea, for your sexual orientation in North Korea can land you a "Rehabilitation" sentence, which doesn't sound very good at all.

This is not true at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_North_Korea

Here is the DPRK's stance on it, briefly summed up:

"Due to tradition in Korean culture, it is not customary for individuals of any sexual orientation to engage in public displays of affection. As a country that has embraced science and rationalism, the DPRK recognizes that many individuals are born with homosexuality as a genetic trait and treats them with due respect. Homosexuals in the DPRK have never been subject to repression, as in many capitalist regimes around the world. However, North Koreans also place a lot of emphasis on social harmony and morals. Therefore, the DPRK rejects many characteristics of the popular gay culture in the West, which many perceive to embrace consumerism, classism and promiscuity."

[Jolly Red Giant]

Bad and all as SK is, you would want to be seriously masochistic to want to live in NK.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

I'd live in the DMZ, stradling both Koreas.

Rather on a land mine ;)
I would choose to live in reunified Korea.

[bie]

yes, interesting article, but the fact the Republic of Korea commits human rights abuses doesn't make it any less true that the DPRK does as well.
I don't think that imperialist propaganda on "human rights" has anything to do with the reality. It is almost entirely based on statements of very suspicious individuals like Sun-Ok Lee (http://www.northkoreanrefugees.com/christians.htm). Lets ask a question - should we believe in all of this?

I would submit to any rational reader here this is just how extreme the brainwashing is in some cases.
Your are right. The problem is that many people in capitalist countries did not bother to challenge the anti-communists outlooks that have been imposed by imperialists through mass media, pseudo-leftist intellectuals etc. They simply accept with no doubt what they are told, mainly about socialist countries. While being critical towards capitalism (that its faults are impossible to hide) they are also opposed to socialism (that is the solution for the problems of capitalism). This strange situation gives birth to all sort of tendencies like trotskyism, anarchism, anarcho-syndicalism etc. etc. What is common for all of that ultra-leftist current is the almost common position on socialist states. With few exceptions they accept the imperialist propaganda on real socialism, they leave it unchallenged. The bourgeioise version of history of XX century socialism and the ultraleft is one and the same. In some cases ultraleftism is not only reinforcing bourgeoisie propaganda, but is one of its active wings.

This is a little bit off topic, but it is a commentary to the "communists" opposing communism.

[Zanthorus]

This strange situation gives birth to all sort of tendencies like trotskyism, anarchism, anarcho-syndicalism etc.

Anarchism has been around since the mid-1800's and Anarcho-Syndicalism existed in embryonic form during the first international, well before "actually existing socialism" came about. The assault on "Trotskyism" by Stalin, Zinoviev and Kamenev began while Trotsky remained solidly within the USSR's borders and he would remain so for the next five years. I find it unlikely that the motivation behind either tendency was some sort of capitulation to "imperialist propaganda".


ultra-leftist

We were well aware of this term being meaningless slander without you reminding everyone.

[robbo203]

Any serious revolutionary or even militant activity would have to be organised secretively or completely underground in South Korea.

Guess you'd be alright then :lol:

Any serious revolutionary operating in the disgusting capitalist regime that is North Korea would quite likely be executed on the spot without further ado judging by evdience such as this (from the other thread)

Originally Posted by durhamleft http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1815992#post1815992)
I don't support them at all. They have no respect for human life. In October 2007, a South Pyongan province factory chief convicted of making international phone calls from 13 phones he installed in his factory basement was executed by firing squad in front of a crowd of 150,000 people in a stadium. In another instance, 15 people were publicly executed for crossing into China

[bie]

Anarchism has been around since the mid-1800's and Anarcho-Syndicalism existed in embryonic form during the first international, well before "actually existing socialism" came about. The assault on "Trotskyism" by Stalin, Zinoviev and Kamenev began while Trotsky remained solidly within the USSR's borders and he would remain so for the next five years. I find it unlikely that the motivation behind either tendency was some sort of capitulation to "imperialist propaganda".
I didn't really mean the origins of that tendencies, but I wanted to share my observation on the relevant part of current movements, that is the attitude toward socialist countries and their history. I think we all agree that some of them are more susceptible and open towards imperialist propaganda than the others. Sometimes I have impression that some part of, lets take an example - trotskyism - is nothing but adopted bourgeoisie vision of the socialism in Russia. Both Trotsky and Conquest create false image of the existing socialist societies.

Therefore I think we agree that the imperialist propaganda penetrated deeply into most of the anticapitalist thought and ideology. I think we also agree that it is necessary to get rid of that- to challenge the lies against communism and workers movement. Now the question is what is left in some tendencies, if we subtract the imperialist ideology. Will they lose their raison d'etre if they stop attacking socialism and instead concentrate on solving problems of capitalism?

[Uppercut]

I'd go with the North. I'm unsure of the extent to which they are actually socialist, but it'd be better than the South, I'm guessing. At least they operate in accordance to soviet democracy, where average workers and whatnot can run for local assemblies.

I'm not at all convinced that the North is a "disgusting capitalist state", especially when you have rallies like this:
http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2010/06/01/mass-meeting-held-to-condemn-anti-dprk-smear-campaign/
http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2010/06/03/more-mass-rallies-in-democratic-korea-as-crisis-deepens/
http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2010/06/08/hands-off-korea/
http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2010/06/29/korean-peoples-army-accuses-u-s-of-introducing-heavy-weapons-in-panmunjom/
http://marxistleninist.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/60thannivkoreanwar-dprk-25june2010.jpg

http://marxistleninist.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/dprk-rally1.jpg
http://marxistleninist.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/2010may30-dprk1.jpg

http://marxistleninist.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/2010may30-dprk3.jpg


I sure as hell would love to be there.

[Hiratsuka]

South, without a second thought.

[Hiratsuka]

1. You don't know this at all.

2. You believe and say things about the DPRK that have no basis in fact. This was shown on the previous thread, where the ridiculous mass-media propaganda you repeated was exposed for what it is: lies.

People who hold to anti-DPRK views without regards to anything factual, IMHO, are closest racists.

Throwing out the racist card at people who hold a different opinion. Classy.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Feel free to post any of it.

How about instead of flooding the thread with reports from the usual NGO's and news organizations that will simply be disregarded by your ilk as quislings for the capitalist superstructure, I'll instead pick out one aspect of North Korean society: the court system (http://www.nyulawglobal.org/globalex/North_Korea.htm).


Legal consultants and representatives receive State salaries and are assigned clients by the local lawyers' committee. On the whole, they represent the interest of the State, rather than the client whom they are expected to educate and persuade to confess.

Of course, the resident board sociopaths such as yourself see absolutely nothing objectionable about having legal defense councils in service of a state that is only interested in your confession and "re-education". :rolleyes:


Then don't consider "DPRK apologists" your audience. Consider it the silent readers of this thread, who are interested in hearing both sides.

I'm afraid it's your side that's fighting the uphill battle. The vast majority of people (including leftists who may defend it against imperialism) see North Korea as the hellhole that it is. It is only the truly deranged who see North Korea as anything other than a hideous caricature of socialism. Those hypocrites see nothing wrong with the total media blackout which enshroudes North Korea, yet believe every single act of torture that comes out of another media-blackout hellhole called Guantanamo Bay.


If you can make the "DPRK apologists" look bad, do it. Because right now, I would think any unbiased reader of this discussion could only come to the conclusion that the other side hates the DPRK without any evidence whatsoever

Yes, I'm sure that any "unbiased reader" (LOL!) would come to that exact conclusion.


they have actually been conditioned to do so by the racist capitalist mass media caricatures of Kim Jong-Il, and that they actually know next to nothing that could be considered factual about the country. Meanwhile, the views of the "DPRK apologists" are based on the work of famous scholars like Bruce Cumings and Martin Hart-Landsberg, both widely acknowledged experts in their fields.

Bruce Cumings? The same Bruce Cumings who said "I have no sympathy for the North, which is the author of most of its own troubles"? And I actually recognize MHL...his work on China is pretty good. Of course, the fact that he's a lefty academic with his feet firmly planted on the side of intellectual Marxism doesn't exactly do wonders for the claim that he's any kind of "objective source"...it would be like me posting an article from National Review about N. Korea and then pointing at it and exclaiming wildly, "LOOK! It really is a hellhole, guys!" Most sensible leftists will only defend N. Korea in the mealy mouthed language of anti-imperialism...I continue to be amazed that anyone doesn't see the actual government for what it is, though, and that's a hodgepodge of the worst aspects of Stalinism, Korean nationalism and military junta.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'd go with the North. I'm unsure of the extent to which they are actually socialist, but it'd be better than the South, I'm guessing. At least they operate in accordance to soviet democracy, where average workers and whatnot can run for local assemblies.

I'm not at all convinced that the North is a "disgusting capitalist state", especially when you have rallies like this:

I sure as hell would love to be there.

Whoa! Rallies, you say?

That changes the entire argument!

[bie]

Whoa! Rallies, you say?

That changes the entire argument!
I am sure that you better know what is good for the Korean workers than workers themselves. Maybe just leave them alone?

[LimitedIdeology]

I have to admit, to me, someone saying that North Korea is anything but a hellhole ranks right up there with saying "You know Auschwitz was not so bad"

That's where my apparently wandering around in argumentation has been. I can't believe that someone would put forth it using North Korean government sources to show how much of a standup place it is.

To be honest, I think I'm just getting trolled now.

[Uppercut]

Whoa! Rallies, you say?

That changes the entire argument!

These are workers, farmers, teachers, public service workers, intellectuals, and people from all walks of life coming together for a common cause. I don't know what your problem is with that.

[LimitedIdeology]

These are workers, farmers, teachers, public service workers, intellectuals, and people from all walks of life coming together for a common cause. I don't know what your problem is with that.
I guess one of my own personal issues is: What happens if they don't agree with that cause?

[Os Cangaceiros]

These are workers, farmers, teachers, public service workers, intellectuals, and people from all walks of life coming together for a common cause.

That sounds oddly familiar...

http://www.brownerteam.com/images/obama_rally.jpg

[scarletghoul]

Yes, there clearly is a huge revolutionary sentiment among the populace, despite what you may think of the top government officials. And this sentiment is not just allowed, unlike in South Korea, it is actively encouraged. This is undeniable.


I have to admit, to me, someone saying that North Korea is anything but a hellhole ranks right up there with saying "You know Auschwitz was not so bad"

That's where my apparently wandering around in argumentation has been. I can't believe that someone would put forth it using North Korean government sources to show how much of a standup place it is.

To be honest, I think I'm just getting trolled now.

The horrors of Auschwitz are well documented. There's not a lot of evidence of North Korea being a 'hellhole'. Everything you think about North Korea is based on hearsay. Is that so hard to grasp ? Think about it. The only reason you and most of these others think the DPRK sucks is because that is what you have been told. And it is still the Cold War in Korea, so do you think you would be told anything other than stuff about DPRK being a hellhole ?

Try actually thinking for a change, instead of just taking for granted things because they are the dominant narrative in your country.

[scarletghoul]

That sounds oddly familiar...

http://www.brownerteam.com/images/obama_rally.jpg
Yeahh I dont see any of them raising their fists and calling for the defeat of global capitalism

[Uppercut]

I guess one of my own personal issues is: What happens if they don't agree with that cause?

You mean what if they don't agree with fending of imperialism? Well shit, I think they're in the country then. But why would you use your personal experience (whatever it may be) as justification to denounce mass mobilization against foreign aggression in the DPRK?


That sounds oddly familiar...

You need to take into account that politics, production relations, elections, ideology etc. are very different in the DPRK. Of course Americans grouped together around Obama because he promised "change" and appeared to be a serious progressive, as far as capitalism goes. However, we're not seeing any of that, obviously.

But yeah, an imperialist bourgeoise rally is exactly the same as an anti-imperialist, socialist rally. They're two different countries, two different systems, fighting for two different ideologies.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Yeahh I dont see any of them raising their fists and calling for the defeat of global capitalism

That's cuz their demands aren't cloaked under the glorious flag of Juche. Anything can and will be accomplished as long as you make some cursory references to imperialism and Marxism-Leninism (while at the same time publicly calling the theories dated and not useful to the national enigma that is North Korea).

[Lenin II]

North, certainly. They are very progressive and the most anti-imperialist state right now.

[Os Cangaceiros]

They are very progressive.

Hilarious, considering your user title.

[NGNM85]

Niether, ideally.

[John "Eh" MacDonald]

Is it just me or is this the most idiotic post on RevLeft?

...well other than my first post Nihilism Vs Atheism. The only place I want to live is in a world where the state is abolished.:lol:

[Soviet dude]

How about instead of flooding the thread with reports from the usual NGO's and news organizations that will simply be disregarded by your ilk as quislings for the capitalist superstructure, I'll instead pick out one aspect of North Korean society: the court system.

“Legal consultants and representatives receive State salaries and are assigned clients by the local lawyers' committee. On the whole, they represent the interest of the State, rather than the client whom they are expected to educate and persuade to confess.”

Of course, the resident board sociopaths such as yourself see absolutely nothing objectionable about having legal defense councils in service of a state that is only interested in your confession and "re-education".1.Name calling isn't warranted, and if anything, shows the weakness of your position.

2.What other salaries besides state salaries would they receive in a socialist society? Do you expect them to own law firms?

3.This article cites no evidence that defense lawyers don't properly represent their clients.

4.Even though this article is clearly hostile to the DPRK, I think it contains enough accurate information that if people read through the bias, the legal system of the DPRK comes off looking much better than our own. Take for instance, this part:


Upon liberation of Korea in 1945, the North Korean leadership abrogated all existing Japanese laws but had to reinstate the same laws to maintain public order until new laws could be promulgated. The new law code of 1946 included revised Japanese provisions and a Soviet-based judicial structure. Soviet advisors in North Korea had a heavy role in drafting the 1948 DPRK Constitution along with numerous reform laws and ordinances. As leaders in the Soviet Civil Administration, these consultants were sensitive to North Korean aspirations, using a populist tone and emphasizing land reform in the Constitution. North Korean judicial practice started to follow a Soviet pattern in terms of court structure and the procuracy. For example, the courts exercised not only punitive powers but also had the duty to educate criminals and the public about being faithful to the law and the party. Similar to other Communist States, ordinary citizens served as people's assessors on the bench alongside the judge.This all sounds pretty progress to me. Do you object to ordinary people serving on the bench alongside judges?

5. The National Lawers Guild also made several comments about the legal system in their 2003 report. Allow me to quote them:


C. The Legal System

We were told that the legal system is based on the Napoleonic Code, but it appears to be more in line with the German Civil code, as introduced by the Japanese. There is a structured court system in both the criminal and civil fields, and that there is a system of family and tort law as well. In our short trip we could not learn the details of the DPRK legal system and we need to go back to learn more. We asked to be taken to courts and law faculties to speak to professors and students, but due to the short nature of the trip, and a misunderstanding about our arrival date, it was not possible to arrange. We have also asked to visit courts, but it was not possible on this trip.

Through discussions and research we discovered that the law of criminal procedure provides that court proceedings shall be open, but also contains a clause that allows a hearing to be closed if “there is a fear of exercising a bad effect on society.” Such a provision could lead to abuses and to better understand it we need a sense as to how many proceedings are really open. Is it used more broadly than some of the privacy and national security claims made in the U.S., or the current military tribunals for alleged terrorists, to justify closed or secret hearings? However, our hosts assured those of us from the delegation who plan to return, that our future delegations would include visits to the courts and meetings with more lawyers and judges.

We were struck by the design of the DPRK criminal justice system. We even found in a bookstore the Criminal Procedures Act of the DPRK in English. Several principles seem quite progressive and reflect more of restorative justice, than retributive justice. The prime objective of the criminal justice system is rehabilitation or setting an example, not punishment,. There is an element of the latter, as there are jail terms for crimes, but this is not the major thrust of their system. In fact, they have codified a process by which those affected by the decision or the conduct of the accused have a real role in the process and those that contributed to the delinquent act or were involved in educating the person (i.e. a parent or friend) have to be available in the process to receive a “lecture” from the court. Penalties include submitting the accused to “social” or “public education.” Those arrested are required to have their families notified within 48 hours. A defense counsel is to be provided to represent the rights of the accused.

We were told that there was no death penalty and that the maximum penalty for any crime is 12 years, with the objective being to try to determine why the person committed the crime and to help that person become a productive member of society. A lack of a death penalty was seen by the delegation as a sign of a civilized nation. There appear to be labor camps where people work out their sentences. No effort was made to hide the presence of these camps. The U.S. media’s recent reports on the poor conditions, high mortality rate and lack of proper care or food, in the camps requires further investigation. In light of the false and exaggerated claims about starvation in the country in general, these reports must be viewed with a grain of salt. We will ask to visit these camps on future delegations.

We asked about the penalties for crimes against the state and whether there was a separate system for those crimes. There is not, but provisions are made for crimes that present a “social danger.” This seems consistent with a socialist society organized around the “common good,” but very general and could be subject to abuse. How it is applied remains to be discovered. However, the North Koreans we met with seemed professed to not understanding how someone would really formally challenge the decisions of the collective, as there is, according to them, an elaborate mechanisms for participation and input at various levels off society.All in all, it seems to me the claim the courts of the DPRK don't represent the people, which is apparently based on the fact they receive state salaries (what other salaries would they receive) seems trifling.


I'm afraid it's your side that's fighting the uphill battle.Indeed, that is true, as our side is fighting a multi-billion dollar propaganda apparatus that has conditioned even people who should be the most skeptical of their claims into accepting their racist imagery of the DPRK as axiomatic. Communists, however, do not shy away from tough battles.


The vast majority of people (including leftists who may defend it against imperialism) see North Korea as the hellhole that it is.The vast majority of people's 'knowledge' of the DPRK consists of racist cartoon caricatures propagated by the mass media.


It is only the truly deranged who see North Korea as anything other than a hideous caricature of socialism.This is, in fact, not true at all, unless you think millions of people in the DPRK are “truly deranged.” The pictures presented by one of the posters more than adequately demonstrate the DPRK, despite what the imperialist mass media tries to convey, does actually have a large amount of popular support.


Those hypocrites see nothing wrong with the total media blackout which enshroudes North Korea, yet believe every single act of torture that comes out of another media-blackout hellhole called Guantanamo Bay.1.There is nothing to believe or disbelieve about Guantanamo Bay. Even the imperialist press and the White House is perfectly open and upfront about what goes on there. Most of our information sources about what goes on there isn't based on anonymous rumors, but from documents obtained from and acknowledged as authentic by the US government. In short, there is no controversy (that I am aware of) about anything that actually goes on there. It is rather debated about as a moral question, about what should the US be doing, not what it is doing.
2.This statement is bizarre and it's hard for me to even understand how this statement has anything to do with any of your other statements. It's as if you're accusing people who support the DPRK of being hypocritical regarding some “freedom of the press” issue, which has never even entered the discussion. My personal opinion on that question is that there is no such thing as “freedom of the press” to begin with, but that is an entirely separate discussion and one which I fail to see the relevance of here.


Yes, I'm sure that any "unbiased reader" (LOL!) would come to that exact conclusion.I certainly think they would. Anyone open to viewpoints that challenge the dominate narratives of society I think would see the defending of the imperialist mass-media narrative regarding the DPRK that is going on here as rather poor. It is as if the people who hate the DPRK are just literally amazed anyone would even question this mass-media narrative at all, yet they show the most superficial understanding of anything involving the DPRK. I think the contrast between the two sides is startling.


Bruce Cumings? The same Bruce Cumings who said "I have no sympathy for the North, which is the author of most of its own troubles"?Indeed, one and the same. Bruce Cumings also makes all sorts of other statements, such as this one:


Predicting the behavior of crazy people is by definition impossible, and American officials constantly harp on Pyongyang’s unpredictability. I would argue, to the contrary, that North Korean behavior has been quite predictable and that an irresponsible American media, almost bereft of good investigative reporters, often (but by no means always) egged on by government officials, obscures the real nature of the United States-Korean conflict. The media has had the wrong stories in the wrong place at the wrong time; the absurd result is that often one has to read North Korea’s tightly controlled press to figure out what is actually going on between Washington and Pyongyang. Because of this severe and often state-induced media bias, it is exceedingly difficult to figure out the real stakes in this conflict.Here Cumings is literally saying the DPRK press is actually more reliable when it comes to anything about the relations between Washington and Pyongyang. Cumings goes further and basically says the picture painted by the Western media is essentially a racist one.


And I actually recognize MHL...his work on China is pretty good. Of course, the fact that he's a lefty academic with his feet firmly planted on the side of intellectual Marxism doesn't exactly do wonders for the claim that he's any kind of "objective source"...it would be like me posting an article from National Review about N. Korea and then pointing at it and exclaiming wildly, "LOOK! It really is a hellhole, guys!"MHL is actually more hostile to the DPRK than Cumings, and Cumings does not even claim to be a Marxist. The difference is that MHL bases his analysis from a pretty thorough understanding of history, and much of what he has to say about the DPRK is, in fact, positive, even though MHL himself is not pro-DPRK. Again, if people actually want to seek truth from facts, these two scholars are the best places to begin. I didn't say there were the end-all-and-be-all of views about the DPRK.


Most sensible leftists will only defend N. Korea in the mealy mouthed language of anti-imperialism...Most of the Left in America is, frankly, terrible. Most of the Left globally does support the DPRK. Cuba, China, Vietnam, Laos, the KKE, the Nepalese Maoists, the Philippine Maoists, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and hundreds of Marxist-Leninist parties all over the world, and most importantly, the millions of people in the DPRK, whose Left-credentials are probably far better than most of the so-called Left in America. So if you want to play numbers games on the Left, the KKE alone probably dwarfs all the anarchist, Trotskyist, “Left Communist,” etc, groups alone. It is actually your position that is the minority position among the global Left, and a majority only amongst the most backward, weak, and foolish Left in the world, the American Left.


I continue to be amazed that anyone doesn't see the actual government for what it is, though, and that's a hodgepodge of the worst aspects of Stalinism, Korean nationalism and military junta. I am amazed that people who claim to be anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist have a literally unshakable faith in racist caricatures painted by the imperialist mass media of a country they want to destroy. What is worse, this unshakable faith is literally based on nothing at all. It is as if the bourgeoisie just had to snap their fingers to get the 'Left' in America to hate the DPRK with a passion you could only find on FreeRepublic.

[Chambered Word]

None, I like living in Australia.

:rolleyes:

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Is it even a question?

Oh forgot where I was for a second.

[Lenin II]

Hilarious, considering your user title.

It depends on the political situation. Not all revisionists are created equal, and certainly a state of 22 million people standing up to nuclear threats cannot be compared to, say, the Obama-supporting CPUSA.

In this case, it would be more accurate to have a title saying, "Death to revisionists within our own movement who undermine and kill the will of the people" or some such thing, but obviously that wouldn't fit.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I think I'd rather live in the south then the north.Higher standered of living plus unlike in the north I wouldn't starve to death.

The threat of constant war however doesn't help.

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

Is it just me or is this the most idiotic post on RevLeft?

...well other than my first post Nihilism Vs Atheism. The only place I want to live is in a world where the state is abolished.:lol:

Nah, I just stumbled onto a whole RevLeft thread titled "Poll: Osama Bin Laden: A hero against imperialism or a radical terrorist? (http://www.revleft.com/vb/your-thoughts-and-t139375/index.html)"

[MortyMingledon]

I think it is essential for all persons answering this survey to first watch the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwoSFQb5HVk&feature=player_embedded

You cannot make an informed decision about whether North or South Korea is superior without first having watched a mash-up of the North Korean mass-parades set to funk music.

[Zanthorus]

I'm just wondering what exactly the DPRK defenders here would consider as an impartial source. What source would I hypothetically have to quote from to get some of the people here to reconsider their views of North Korea as some kind of glorious people's democracy?

[bie]

I'm just wondering what exactly the DPRK defenders here would consider as an impartial source. What source would I hypothetically have to quote from to get some of the people here to reconsider their views of North Korea as some kind of glorious people's democracy?
There are no "impartial" sources in politics. You may listen to one or the other side. And if you are intellectually independent enough as you claim, you may find an interest in looking at DPRK news website. (http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm) It is a excellent source of information. Of course if you don't want to limit yourself only to institutional anti-DPRK sources.

Lets change the subject slighly and concentrate on the ones that select "South Korea" as the better place to live. I have the question to those lads: are you aware that the leftist activity (like on this forum, lets suppose) is strictly forbidden under the sanction of minimum 7 years in prison up to the capital punishment? Here is the text about South Korea:


Time to Campaign against South Korea-Puppets of the US The UK Korean Friendship Association is calling on progressive organisations to mount a campaign to fully expose south Korea as a puppet fascist regime and to give full support to the DPRK. We need a campaign against south Korea along the lines of the campaigns against Pinochets Chile,Apartheid South Africa and Zionist Israel. South Korea is not an independent state it is a puppet regime rigged by the US imperialists. In 1945 US troops landed in south Korea 2 weeks after Korea’s liberation.They forcibly dissolved the peoples committees and set up a puppet regime.They installed Syngham Rhee an Americanised Korean as their puppet.Rhee ’s rule was absolutist despotism and fascism.Uprisings in Jeju island and Ryosu were put down by brutal force US domination of south Korea is institutionalised through various legal mechanisms.Today 30,000 US troops and 1,000 nuclear weapons remain .US forces committ robbery,rape and murder with total impunity. The south Korean economy is dominated by US and Japanese multinationals and controlled by the IMF.American culture stifles Korean culture. The present ruler of south Korea Lee Myung Bak was born in Japan and is half Japanese. South Korea is also built on the repression of leftist and patriotic forces.The leaders of the Revolutionary Party for Reunification Kim Jong Tae and Choi Young Do were murdered by the puppet regime in 1969 and the leaders of the Strategic Liberation Party and Peoples Revolutionary Party were murdered.Today in south Korea the “National Security Law” is still in force which punishes leftist and communist activities with minimum 7 years in jail.Lee Myung Bak has arrested scores of pro reunification patriots and south Korean leftists. South Korea maintains close relations with other reactionary and obnoxious regimes.In the last few days zionist Israeli president Simon Peres visited south Korea.South Korea in the past funded the former UK National Front(forerunner to the BNP) until their American overlords told them it was bad PR. It is time to push aside illusions about south Korea,it is a puppet nazi style regime! Support our campaign against the south Korean puppets and support the DPRK the independent sovereign state on the Korean peninsula

[Zanthorus]

Phrased that sort of wrong. I mean what would you consider a legitimate (Not necessarily impartial) source on the DPRK. I don't doubt that most of the mass media is distorting the truth on a number of issues (Hell I know they are) but that doesn't necessarily mean that all the information or sources they provide are wrong or that on certain issues they don't, or simply don't need, to distort reality.

Basically, who what or where would we have to quote from to get you to reconsider your position on the DPRK as a workers state?

[bie]

I don't think that I am going to reconsider my position on the DPRK as a workers state as long as the communists are in power in that country. But if you have any reliable information that is not the mass media lies and distortions, they are very welcome. Of course, the special emphasis should be given to official of pro-DPRK sources, that they are more unlikely to produce anti-DPRK crap.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

It's kind of hard to decide... on the one hand, South Korea:

http://i32.tinypic.com/pxg8l.jpg

Quite some lovely blocks.

http://i26.tinypic.com/2vjzur7.jpg

I quite prefer the North Korean designs though. They have more of a unique flair to them and are more spacious. They're so lovely. :wub:

I think this is about the level of this thread anyway. Deciding on basis of housing estates. ;D

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Lets change the subject slighly and concentrate on the ones that select "South Korea" as the better place to live. I have the question to those lads: are you aware that the leftist activity (like on this forum, lets suppose) is strictly forbidden under the sanction of minimum 7 years in prison up to the capital punishment?

As opposed to North Korea where you would be sure to get shot on the spot? Still sounds better to me.

South Korea actually has protests, so dissenters obviously don't have as extreme consequences to worry about. Although I'm sure you'll try to tell me it's because everyone is perfectly happy in the communist utopia of NK.

[Zanthorus]

I don't think that I am going to reconsider my position on the DPRK as a workers state as long as the communists are in power in that country.

Having a communist party in power does not make a country a workers state. That's substitutionism.


But if you have any reliable information that is not the mass media lies and distortions, they are very welcome. Of course, the special emphasis should be given to official of pro-DPRK sources, that they are more unlikely to produce anti-DPRK crap.

So what you are basically saying is that you automatically assume that anything anti-DPRK is inherently suspect?

[bie]

As opposed to North Korea where you would be sure to get shot on the spot? Still sounds better to me.Yes I am sure that thousands of people get "shot on a spot" in North Korea every day. Only Western media and its emigree informers do not hesitate to inform us that. There is no other explanation, than they have to cooperate with this "ruthless regime"! :lol:

Having a communist party in power does not make a country a workers state. That's substitutionism
I did not say communist party - I said communists. Communist Party can degenarate and lose its working class character.

automatically assume that anything anti-DPRK is inherently suspect? Yes. I am suspicious to the all the information that is anti-DPRK.

[DragonQuestWes]

I wouldn't mind living in either one of them. To me, they're the same kind of nation.

Although I don't like how the Imperialists are always badmouthing the North even more than the South does.

[Lumpen Bourgeois]

Of course, the special emphasis should be given to official of pro-DPRK sources, that they are more unlikely to produce anti-DPRK crap.

But official DPRK sources are subject to "conflict of interest" biases. Why not be skeptical of all claims made by parties who have a stake in either the demonization or the exaltation of the DPRK?

Given the uncertainty of the situation in North Korea, I think the best course of action would be to view the totality of evidence on the country thoroughly and with a critical eye. Anybody who claims certitude about what goes on in North Korea should be subject to circumspection. This applies to both those who claim that North Korea is "undoubtedly a hell hole" and those who claim it's "most certainly a workers' democracy".

[Zanthorus]

I did not say communist party - I said communists. Communist Party can degenarate and lose its working class character.

And it's still substitutionism. Communists are not necessarily the working class and vice versa.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Yes I am sure that thousands of people get "shot on a spot" in North Korea every day. Only Western media and its emigree informers do not hesitate to inform us that. There is no other explanation, than they have to cooperate with this "ruthless regime"! :lol:

Uhm, I didn't say that. I was talking about active leftists. I thought that was the topic.

If, for example, I lived in North Korea I would obviously not last a single day before being executed seeing as how I am an anti-statist.

Obviously nobody in North Korea would dare be an outspoken leftist so such political executions are probably rare.

[punisa]

If I had to choose, I'd choose North Korea.
No billboard advertising, no brands and "incentives to buy".
No internet or mobile phones, no +400 TV channels to choose from...

I'd probably get married to a lovely Korean girl and get a job in factory.
I would go to work each day by bus and enjoy working.
When I get home I'd have lunch and then spend the rest of the day walking the streets of Pyongyang or studying Juche ideology :lol:

[bie]

But official DPRK sources are subject to "conflict of interest" biases. Why not be skeptical of all claims made by parties who have a stake in either the demonization or the exaltation of the DPRK?

Given the uncertainty of the situation in North Korea, I think the best course of action would be to view the totality of evidence on the country thoroughly and with a critical eye. Anybody who claims certitude about what goes on in North Korea should be subject to circumspection. This applies to both those who claim that North Korea is "undoubtedly a hell hole" and those who claim it's "most certainly a workers' democracy".
There is nothing wrong in that, of course. But I encourage a least to know what communist sources are trying to tell us.

And it's still substitutionism. Communists are not necessarily the working class and vice versa.
Oh come on, read again Communist Manifesto or stop claiming that you are a Marxist:

Communist Manifesto[/I]"]
In what relation do the Communists stand to the proletarians as a whole? The Communists do not form a separate party opposed to the other working-class parties.

They have no interests separate and apart from those of the proletariat as a whole.

They do not set up any sectarian principles of their own, by which to shape and mold the proletarian movement.

The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only:

(1) In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality.
(2) In the various stages of development which the struggle of the working class against the bourgeoisie has to pass through, they always and everywhere represent the interests of the movement as a whole.

The Communists, therefore, are on the one hand practically, the most advanced and resolute section of the working-class parties of every country, that section which pushes forward all others; on the other hand, theoretically, they have over the great mass of the proletariat the advantage of clearly understanding the lines of march, the conditions, and the ultimate general results of the proletarian movement.

The immediate aim of the Communists is the same as that of all other proletarian parties: Formation of the proletariat into a class, overthrow of the bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power by the proletariat.
The theoretical conclusions of the Communists are in no way based on ideas or principles that have been invented, or discovered, by this or that would-be universal reformer.

They merely express, in general terms, actual relations springing from an existing class struggle, from a historical movement going on under our very eyes. The abolition of existing property relations is not at all a distinctive feature of communism.
(...)
The distinguishing feature of communism is not the abolition of property generally, but the abolition of bourgeois property. But modern bourgeois private property is the final and most complete expression of the system of producing and appropriating products that is based on class antagonisms, on the exploitation of the many by the few.

In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.


Uhm, I didn't say that. I was talking about active leftists. I thought that was the topic.

If, for example, I lived in North Korea I would obviously not last a single day before being executed seeing as how I am an anti-statist.

Obviously nobody in North Korea would dare be an outspoken leftist so such political executions are probably rare.
I don't think that "anti-statism" is more reactionary that institutional Buddhism that is allowed as in any other country. You may not have problems for being "anti-statist" but concerning the difficult situation on the verge of war, refusal for the conscription, breaking morale in the army or spying for the Americans would not be well seen I suppose.

[bie]

I'd probably get married to a lovely Korean girl and get a job in factory.
I would go to work each day by bus and enjoy working.
When I get home I'd have lunch and then spend the rest of the day walking the streets of Pyongyang or studying Juche ideology ..or to make progress at one of the higher education institutions:

"Because of the emphasis on the continued education of all members of society, adult or work-study education is actively supported. Practically everyone in the country participates in some educational activity, usually in the form of "small study groups." In the 1980s, the adult literacy rate was estimated at 99 percent.

In the early 1990s, people in rural areas were organized into "five-family teams." These teams have educational and surveillance functions; the teams are the responsibility of a schoolteacher or other intellectual, each one being in charge of several such teams. Office and factory workers have two-hour "study sessions" after work each day on both political and technical subjects.

Adult education institutions in the early 1990s include "factory colleges," which teach workers new skills and techniques without forcing them to quit their jobs. Students work part-time, study in the evening, or take short intensive courses, leaving their workplaces for only a month or so. There also are "farm colleges," where rural workers can study to become engineers and assistant engineers, and a system of correspondence courses. For workers and peasants who are unable to receive regular school education, there are "laborers' schools" and "laborers' senior middle schools," although in the early 1990s these had become less important with the introduction of compulsory eleven-year education."

Source (http://www.mongabay.com/history/north_korea/north_korea-adult_education.html)

It is not the worst way of spending free time, isn't it?

[Charles Xavier]

North Korea had a higher standard of living than South Korea up until the late 1970s. It wasn't until democratic struggles in South Korea happened that the standard of living increased there. South Korea doesn't have blockades, sanctions, and embargos and has a higher population than north korea. South Korea doesn't have acts of sabotages and doesn't even need to rely on its own military alone for national defense. And South Korea wasn't bombed to the stone age when the Korea War took place when US troops were ordered to bomb every factory, school, village and city in North Korea. By no means in North Korea perfect, but it was never given a chance to develop peacefully in its whole existence. The degeneracies in North Korea are not the product of some crazy leader, but due to war and imperial intrigues. It developed the way it has out of necessity. There is a lot good going on in North Korea despite its problems.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

You may not have problems for being "anti-statist"

Of course I would. Don't be naive. As soon as I said the word "anarchist" I would have a gun to the back of my head.

[KC]

It developed the way it has out of necessity.

History always develops "out of necessity". Defending the North Korean government by saying it has done what it has done "out of necessity" is just silly.

China restored capitalism "out of necessity" as well. So did the Soviet Union.

[Charles Xavier]

History always develops "out of necessity". Defending the North Korean government by saying it has done what it has done "out of necessity" is just silly.

China restored capitalism "out of necessity" as well. So did the Soviet Union.


You misunderstood what I said. The Soviet Union because of the great war had suspended democratic norms, out of nessicity. This lead to opportunists and revisionists to gain power and influence in the CPUSA, leading to capitalist reforms, which led to economic crisises and stagnation, which lead to bureaucratic and short sighted reforms to address those crisises which lead to overthrow.

[KC]

You misunderstood what I said. The Soviet Union because of the great war had suspended democratic norms, out of nessicity. This lead to opportunists and revisionists to gain power and influence in the CPUSA, leading to capitalist reforms, which led to economic crisises and stagnation, which lead to bureaucratic and short sighted reforms to address those crisises which lead to overthrow.

Yes, which all happened "out of necessity".

[∞]

I'd go with the North. I'm unsure of the extent to which they are actually socialist, but it'd be better than the South, I'm guessing. At least they operate in accordance to soviet democracy, where average workers and whatnot can run for local assemblies.

I'm not at all convinced that the North is a "disgusting capitalist state", especially when you have rallies like this:
http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2010/06/01/mass-meeting-held-to-condemn-anti-dprk-smear-campaign/
http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2010/06/03/more-mass-rallies-in-democratic-korea-as-crisis-deepens/
http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2010/06/08/hands-off-korea/
http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2010/06/29/korean-peoples-army-accuses-u-s-of-introducing-heavy-weapons-in-panmunjom/
http://marxistleninist.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/60thannivkoreanwar-dprk-25june2010.jpg

http://marxistleninist.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/dprk-rally1.jpg
http://marxistleninist.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/2010may30-dprk1.jpg

http://marxistleninist.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/2010may30-dprk3.jpg


I sure as hell would love to be there.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Chinese_and_North_Korean_POWs_at_camp_in_Pusan_HD-SN-99-03155.JPEG

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/dprk/images/dg-dprk-camp22_1.jpg

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/img_dir/2009/05/01/2009050100326_0.jpg

Maybe democracy for those who agree with Kim Jong Il...

[-Strelok]

South Korea.

Why the heck would anyone want to live in the psuedo-communist dictatorship that is North Korea which can barely feed it's own people, oppresses civil liberties to the max, worships a malevolent dictator and :blushing:'s with tourists?


I'm not at all convinced that the North is a "disgusting capitalist state", especially when you have rallies like thisOf course they aren't capitalist. It's a dictatorship that can mostly be in accordance with Stalinism but overall mixes different forms of Communist ideologies but has failed with a fragile economy unable to achieve the original Communist goals.


If I had to choose, I'd choose North Korea.
No billboard advertising, no brands and "incentives to buy".
No internet or mobile phones, no +400 TV channels to choose from...Great. Devoid of factors that would help an otherwise fragile economy. Top it off with terrible standards of living and virtually zero civil liberties.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

North Korea had a higher standard of living than South Korea up until the late 1970s. It wasn't until democratic struggles in South Korea happened that the standard of living increased there. South Korea doesn't have blockades, sanctions, and embargos and has a higher population than north korea. South Korea doesn't have acts of sabotages and doesn't even need to rely on its own military alone for national defense. And South Korea wasn't bombed to the stone age when the Korea War took place when US troops were ordered to bomb every factory, school, village and city in North Korea. By no means in North Korea perfect, but it was never given a chance to develop peacefully in its whole existence. The degeneracies in North Korea are not the product of some crazy leader, but due to war and imperial intrigues. It developed the way it has out of necessity. There is a lot good going on in North Korea despite its problems.

This is a simple and good explenation of why things got mad.

The demonisation of North Korea has been very effective, i have heard of many people (also leftis) saying that the best thing for the people would probably be if someone invaded the country and liberated them. I know many on the left will be extra harsch on NK because they are tired of hearing frome others that this is wa all attempts of reaching communism will end with, and what they stand for. But this has gone to far just because we dont support the brandy-drinking leaders of the country doesnt mean that we should throw away our materialistic and critical analysis. Life is hard there, like in all developing countries but even none-socialist people frome the UN have said that the distribuation of few resources they have is good. Many people seems to belive that this is hell on earth and the worst place to live in, when i can think of a lot of places/situations that i know is more terrible then being an average citizen in NK, like being an outcasted prostitute in India ore being a refuge in Darfur.

[Sendo]

um South Korea because I don't want to be poor and cut off from friends in the USA adn in South Korea. I support NK's right to self-determination, but I don't see how choosing to live there or anywhere else makes a difference.

Jeez, it's like some people think that South Koreans are the anti-matter to North Korea's matter or something. Notice no one debates over whether to move to Belarus or France; it makes the same amount of sense.

[Sendo]

They both fuckin SUCK.

Travel to at least one of them or shut the fuck up.

[Charles Xavier]

Yes, which all happened "out of necessity".
No but it explains why things happened when socialism is undersiege. There was fightbacks in the Soviet Union but they ultimately didn't win in the end. Its about look at things as a materialist, looking at the dynamic and complex relations that exist in society. Its easy to blame everything on a person or the government but you need to see what influences those decisions and how successfully they are carried out.

[Konstantine]

That fool Kim-Jong Il is as big an oaf as Stalin. Lenin would be ashamed.

In this case, capitalism is the lesser of two evils.

[KC]

No but it explains why things happened when socialism is undersiege. There was fightbacks in the Soviet Union but they ultimately didn't win in the end. Its about look at things as a materialist, looking at the dynamic and complex relations that exist in society. Its easy to blame everything on a person or the government but you need to see what influences those decisions and how successfully they are carried out.

You're the one that's trying to ex post facto defend the North Korean regime, not me.

[Obs]

If I had to choose, I'd choose North Korea.
No billboard advertising, no brands and "incentives to buy".
No internet or mobile phones, no +400 TV channels to choose from.
You realise you're posting this online?

[AK]

I'm just wondering what exactly the DPRK defenders here would consider as an impartial source. What source would I hypothetically have to quote from to get some of the people here to reconsider their views of North Korea as some kind of glorious people's democracy?
I'm pretty sure someone who has claimed to be upholding the ideological line of Marx-Engels-Lenin-Stalin(-Mao?) has, at one point, dismissed Kim as an evil revisionist.

Yeahh I dont see any of them raising their fists and calling for the defeat of global capitalism
http://patdollard.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/obamarxist.jpg
Obama is a communist so stfu.

[human strike]

I like not starving to death so I voted South.

[Wanted Man]

You realise you're posting this online?

So?

[Obs]

So?
You don't see a certain conflict in lamenting the existence of the Internet, while purposefully being on the Internet?

EDIT: What a way to start a new page.

[Wanted Man]

Not necessarily. It would be a conflict if he were a raging internet addict, but otherwise... I can kind of sympathise with what he's saying (although his conception of NK is probably way too utopian). When on vacation, one of the greatest joys is not having to worry about the hundreds of e-mails from people who want something from you.

Now, I wouldn't want to be in that state of affairs permanently, and living in NK is probably not much like a vacation, but I can see what he means.

[Charles Xavier]

Living in any country in the developing world is no vacation, life is quite hard, but in North Korea you may not have the opulence and wealth you see in many developing country you also don't see the extreme poverty. Everyone has a home, food, and clothing provided to them by the state. They certainly don't have as much as a developed imperialist country.

[Chimurenga.]

Maybe democracy for those who agree with Kim Jong Il...

LOL. That first picture says "Chinese and North Korean POW's in Pusan".

Pusan is in South Korea, you fool. These were prisoners during the Korean War. Really has nothing to do with the EVIL NORTH KOREA :laugh:

[Lenin Cat]

Its iilegal to be Pro-North, not communist.

[punisa]

You realise you're posting this online?

Lol :lol:
This reminds me of one interview of Slavoj Zizek. Well, basically the journalist asked him: "how come you support communism when basically you speak freely, sell your books and enjoy western way of life overall? You are a free thinker, why in the world would you allow someone to take that away?"

Zizek: "You don't get it my friend - I don't want it, I want the party to think for me, so I don't" :laugh:

So yeah, I'm posting online, but fuck the internet.
I'm also buying my food in the huge supermarket, so what? Fuck them too.

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

Its iilegal to be Pro-North, not communist.

Dare you to prove the difference in a South Korean court. :D

[The Author]

Well, let me see. If I had to pick between North and South Korea, I'd pick North Korea.

In South Korea, I'd have the freedom to express myself (of course, the South Korean government would start to run a surveillance net on me once I showed up on the streets of Seoul or Busan, so this "freedom" really is a construct in the minds of liberals), I could write whatever I want, do whatever I want, be wherever I want. That's the real reasons why most of you picked South Korea. Fear of losing the "freedoms" I mentioned above.

Then I'd also have to worry about a place to live in, how to acquire food and other necessities, where to find decent health facilities, some places of sport and culture to broaden myself individually. Also finding a job, competing with other unemployed workers for work, and then once acquiring a job, fighting hard to keep that job and maintaining the fear of losing that job. Or getting into serious debt, and feeling like a slave to a bank or creditors and worrying about prices and costs for everything. Not getting to enjoy life really, just living on the edge. Yep, South Korea sounds like fun.

On the other hand, in North Korea, I'd have a guaranteed job- even if only a job on an assembly line it beats the shit out of begging for change in the streets- a roof over my head, food, and other basic necessities and free health care. No, I wouldn't have the freedom to write what I want, say what I want, do what I want- although with my basic needs pretty much satisfied I see no material reason to "protest," as was/is the case with millions of people living in socialist countries- and I'd feel pretty restricted without a car or the "luxuries" you find in the opulence of capitalism with all its sham splendors, such as cellphones, Ipods, Iphones, and the scores of other neat little gadgets that we fetish over but really don't need because they serve as distractions- greater opiates than anything Marx ever imagined. I'd also have to worry about shortages, but then I'd have to remind myself constantly that North Korea is encircled by capitalist countries and this is a natural consequence of the political tensions in the efforts of world imperialism to restore capitalist relations in this country. I'd also have to remind myself that life under socialism- the first phase of communism- is a tough cell fraught with difficulties, and that no serious Marxist ever believed that this would be easy, or some kind of utopia or paradise right off the bat. Yep, I'd feel restricted, but at least I would feel alive.

[robbo203]

Well, let me see. If I had to pick between North and South Korea, I'd pick North Korea.

In South Korea, I'd have the freedom to express myself (of course, the South Korean government would start to run a surveillance net on me once I showed up on the streets of Seoul or Busan, so this "freedom" really is a construct in the minds of liberals), I could write whatever I want, do whatever I want, be wherever I want. That's the real reasons why most of you picked South Korea. Fear of losing the "freedoms" I mentioned above.

Then I'd also have to worry about a place to live in, how to acquire food and other necessities, where to find decent health facilities, some places of sport and culture to broaden myself individually. Also finding a job, competing with other unemployed workers for work, and then once acquiring a job, fighting hard to keep that job and maintaining the fear of losing that job. Or getting into serious debt, and feeling like a slave to a bank or creditors and worrying about prices and costs for everything. Not getting to enjoy life really, just living on the edge. Yep, South Korea sounds like fun.

On the other hand, in North Korea, I'd have a guaranteed job- even if only a job on an assembly line it beats the shit out of begging for change in the streets- a roof over my head, food, and other basic necessities and free health care. No, I wouldn't have the freedom to write what I want, say what I want, do what I want- although with my basic needs pretty much satisfied I see no material reason to "protest," as was/is the case with millions of people living in socialist countries- and I'd feel pretty restricted without a car or the "luxuries" you find in the opulence of capitalism with all its sham splendors, such as cellphones, Ipods, Iphones, and the scores of other neat little gadgets that we fetish over but really don't need because they serve as distractions- greater opiates than anything Marx ever imagined. I'd also have to worry about shortages, but then I'd have to remind myself constantly that North Korea is encircled by capitalist countries and this is a natural consequence of the political tensions in the efforts of world imperialism to restore capitalist relations in this country. I'd also have to remind myself that life under socialism- the first phase of communism- is a tough cell fraught with difficulties, and that no serious Marxist ever believed that this would be easy, or some kind of utopia or paradise right off the bat. Yep, I'd feel restricted, but at least I would feel alive.


...Or possibly on the way to dying from starvation http://www.petersoninstitute.org/publications/wp/wp08-9.pdf

Oh and the bit about world imperialism trying to restore capitalist relations in North Korea, well sorry to disillusion you, but capitalist relations are fully entrenched in North Korea in the form of generalised wage labour. No "serious marxist" would deny that. Indeed, the regime itself set up special economic zones with their pliantly exploitable and cheap labour force, touting for business from the very imperialists it claims to oppose. http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/09/23/nkorea.economic/

As for NK being in the first phase of communism, well if this a reference to Marx's notes in the Critique of the Gotha Programme then you are clearly utterly misinformed. Marx advocated for this phase non-circulating labour vouchers and common (not state) ownership of the means of production. I see no evidence of that in NK. Nor did Marx distinguish between socialism and communism - this was a distinction introduced by Lenin. What exists in North Korea is nothing more than dead-end state capitalism

Though Im no fan of South Korea either anyone with their feet on the ground would probably recognise that on balance it is preferable to the North. At least you are not likely to be executed for being a revolutionary communist critic of that vile regime. People have apparently been summarily executed in the North for much lesser "crimes" (see the earlier post by DurhamLeft). Quite disgusting really

[Tablo]

The main reason is that South Korea is simply the better place to live as far as standard of living goes. Yes, it is nice to express ourselves, but food is more important than freedom.

[Charles Xavier]

So North Korea sucks because its poor and has embargos on it from the United States and other Imperialist countries? Some socialists you guys are.

[Social-Murphy]

I voted North because it seems alot more interesting then the South. Though the South is more technologicaly advanced and higher standard of living.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

And over 70% vote for the fascist southern puppet shithole. Why am I completely unsurprised? Buncha sad bastards...

[Sir Comradical]

Objectively I'd have to say the North. I say this because they sell better fishing rods there.

[Forward Union]

Re: the 42 who voted for the North - Better start eating your carrots.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/dprk/images/dprk-dmsp-dark.jpg

[Forward Union]

I voted North because it seems alot more interesting then the South

Yea, I agree. Much more interesting. I'd be particularly looking forward to the feeling of morbid starvation - although I have to admit, I'd be tempted to eat some dry grass to survive a bit longer I dunno if it tastes good but the girl in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh4CtTGAzKw) certainly seems to like it. I mean, I know she was found dead in a cornfield a couple of months later [1] (http://www.asiapress.org/rimjingang/english/20110208_homeless_woman001/index.html) but that must have been pretty "interesting" for her and her friends. I know I'd like to live there, to get to see things like this and maybe even experience it myself. All those nights sleeping outside with dying peasants, I'm excited just thinking about it!. Might even get to eat some of the famous N.Korean cuisine; boiled clay and wood to try and stop my stomach digesting itself or even other corpses! I can't wait!



a male guard who could not bear his hunger killed his colleague using an ax, ate some of the human flesh and sold the remainder in the market by disguising it as mutton, the report said,

now THAT (http://rokdrop.com/2011/06/21/smuggled-document-confirms-cannibalism-in-north-korea/) is interesting.

I mean the south is so boring with all it's technology bla bla bla.

[Social-Murphy]

I just think the culture of the North would be more interesting because its been secluded for so long while the South has potential to loose some of the culture. And the culture shock id see in the North would be worth going through i think. I do feel, though, that Kim should take a gander at his people and see the suffering and give aid to his fellow human beings, whether they are in the military or not. I dont promote whats happening there, but if i had a chance to go see one of the Koreas, it would be the North.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I'd rather live in a liberal capitalist society, than a backward pseudo-theocracy.

[Agent Blazkowicz]

I voted for the DPRK, I think it'd be interesting to experience the fruits of this Juche.

[Kiev Communard]

I would rather live in the Korean People's Association if the latter had not been destroyed by Japanese troops and Stalinist intrigues. Something tells me it would have been superior both to modern North and South:


Among the two million Koreans in Manchuria the KAF in Manchuria was able to sink deep roots immediately after its formation in 1929. The Federation's main organiser, Kim Jong-Jin, drew up a plan which he put to the anti-Japanese guerillas. It covered voluntary collectives for farmers, free education up to age 18 with adult education for those older and arms training for all responsible adults. Discussions followed and eventually an anarchist plan was agreed which was described as being “according to the free federation principle based upon the spontaneous free will of man”.

The difficulty that was not really addressed was how to deal with the Stalinists who were also organising in this region and were slandering the anarchists and others as “tyrants”. The young anarchists around Yu-Rim wanted to fight ideology with ideology and demonstrate the superiority of their ideas. The older anti-Japanese guerillas around Kim Jwa-Jin (sometimes called the Korean Makhno) thought it was enough to state their support for anarchism but that they could ignore the Stalinists until national independence was won because only then would real politics come to the forefront. Not a lot different from the stages theory put forward by elements in Sinn Fein!

By August 1929 the anarchists had formed an administration in Shinmin (one of the three Manchurian provinces). Whether this was a government is still a point of contention among anarchists. Organised as the Korean People's Association in Manchuria it declared its aim as “an independent self-governing cooperative system of the Korean people who assembled their full power to save our nation by struggling against Japan”. The structure was federal going from village meetings to district and area conferences. The general association was composed of delegates from the districts and areas.

The general association set up executive departments to deal with agriculture, education, propaganda, finance, military affairs, social health, youth and general affairs. The staff of the departments received no more than the average wage.

We would expect that the organisation would start at village level and then federate upwards. However the EAPM believed that the war situation made this impossible to apply the principle immediately. In the interim they appointed the staffs and appointed them from the top down. Organisation and propaganda teams were then sent out to agitate for support and for the creation of village assemblies and committees. In one village a rice mill capable of milling over 1 million bushels was built to allow the local co-op to break from reliance on merchants. Seemingly all these teams reported a good response and were made welcome wherever they went.

The local administration of the anti-Japanese fighters in Shimin voluntarily dissolved itself and lent its support to KAPM. As the anarchists grew in numbers and support the Stalinists and the pro-Japanese elements in Manchuria felt their own power bases threatened.

http://theanarchistlibrary.org/HTML/Alan_MacSimoin__The_Korean_Anarchist_Movement.html



Obviously it was far closer to the model of "democratic dictatorship of the proletariat and poor peasantry" than "Democratic People's" Kim Il-song's theocracy.

[Prairie Fire]

DPRK= 53
ROK=140

Anyone who voted for the ROK is someone who would bail on socialism as soon as it wasn't immediately prosperous. The first snag in the road, they would defect.

Learn from the DPRK. Whether you agree with the official ideology or not, this is exactly what would happen to any country that has a government that is even moderately defiant to free markets, let alone socialist. For those who haven't learned from Cuba and the DPRK, an embargo is usually in the cards, as well as a military intervention.

Any absence of food taking place in the North is not by design. Which regime, even an "authoritarian" one, would purposely de-stabilize themselves? Which regime would consciously create the conditions among the population to necesitate their own removal?

[Tim Finnegan]

Anyone who voted for the ROK is someone who would bail on socialism as soon as it wasn't immediately prosperous. The first snag in the road, they would defect.
You cannot assume a priori that the DPRK represents socialism. Setting aside any discussion of whether or not this is the case, such an assumption is fundamentally un-Marxist, as indicated by the fact that such a discussion is actually possible. (Nobody, for example, would feel the need to discuss whether or the USA was a capitalist country.) This renders your criticism fundamentally invalid.

[Reznov]

Neither.

Oh no im kidding with that awesome one word response.

Anyways, most probably SK, unless I knew there was some way I could be born into the Military "Juche" Class of North Korea. (Oh and, pissing that one guy who called SK "fascist" oh and with the stalin avatar, which is pretty cool imo.)

[Revy]

DPRK= 53
ROK=140

Anyone who voted for the ROK is someone who would bail on socialism as soon as it wasn't immediately prosperous. The first snag in the road, they would defect.

Learn from the DPRK. Whether you agree with the official ideology or not, this is exactly what would happen to any country that has a government that is even moderately defiant to free markets, let alone socialist. For those who haven't learned from Cuba and the DPRK, an embargo is usually in the cards, as well as a military intervention.

Any absence of food taking place in the North is not by design. Which regime, even an "authoritarian" one, would purposely de-stabilize themselves? Which regime would consciously create the conditions among the population to necesitate their own removal?

What a joke.

Nothing socialist about the DPRK and it has set back the cause of genuine socialism for the North Korean people. "Snag in the road"? the DPRK wasn't founded by a socialist revolution. It was one of many Soviet puppet states that came into existence after the end of World War II.

When the DPRK falls, the North Korean people will simply want "democracy". The Korean revolutionary left will have to work hard to re-define socialism so people recognize it for it genuinely is, rather than what they experienced under Kim Jong-il.

Socialism has a better chance under a unified Korea where the revolutionary left can actually organize, not under the DPRK.

[Das war einmal]

I voted NK for the lulz. It's all that this topic is good for.

[Metacomet]

North Korea.

Better website.



http://www.korea-dpr.com/

The people engage in hiking AND bowling for recreation! How can you beat that! You certainly can't do that down south.

And they have "many" popular sports!

[Kamos]

South Korea. Now if Kim Jong Il was a communist and tried to create a communist society... then I would probably choose North.

[Ingraham Effingham]

I vote South, because I love Korean food.

In the North, they dont have any.

[Prairie Fire]

You cannot assume a priori that the DPRK represents socialism. Setting aside any discussion of whether or not this is the case, such an assumption is fundamentally un-Marxist, as indicated by the fact that such a discussion is actually possible. (Nobody, for example, would feel the need to discuss whether or the USA was a capitalist country.) This renders your criticism fundamentally invalid.


Did you read my whole comment? C'mon, it's one paragraph; make an effort.

I specifically said "...this is exactly what would happen to any country that has a government that is even moderately defiant to free markets, let alone socialist."

My argument was not predicated on the DPRK being socialist.

DPRK,Cuba, Vietnam prior to 1995... overall, none of these states have achieved the overall socio-economic features of socialism ( some more than others, though,). That said, they all have a feature in common: Embargo by the United States.

I don't think that there is a persyn on this board who would argue that Iraq under Hussien was a socialist state. Still, it was Iraq under Hussien that was the target of particularly draconian sanctions during the 90's (resulting in a million deaths).

Since sanctions/full scale embargo seem to be standard operating procedure in response to upstarts in opposition to imperialism, does it stand to reason that perhaps this would be the response to a fledgling socialist state as well?

Many of the people who voted ROK in this poll explicitly rationalized their vote on the grounds of "higher standard of living". This is troubling.

No analysis of the socio-economic conditions that prevail in the ROK, no discussion of why there is a disparity... they simply gravitate towards whichever society will give them a better deal.

This sort of shameless mercenary opportunism would translate into their conduct in a hypothetical socialist state as well. As I said, as soon as they were not immediately prosperous in a socialist state, they would defect to where-ever they could get a better deal, regardless of whether or not this better deal came at the cost of exploitation.

People on this board are just deluding themselves by assuming that their current standard of living will experience no dip what-so-ever in a post revolution situation.
Sanctions, embargos, the logical cost of ending imperialist exploitation of other countries...all of these things, and the transition to a self reliant economy would make a lot of excess evaporate.

I would keep an eye open for anyone who is willing to put aside politics in exchange for a higher standard of living, because their motives are always suspect. If you establish the principle that an individual should always seek maximum standard of living, where do you draw the line? Inevitably, this leads anyone back to capitalism, aspiring to be a part of the bourgeoisie itself( who have the highest standard of living).

[Os Cangaceiros]

^c'mon now. You're essentially laying the entirety of the blame on the feet of the evil imperialists. The fact is that the DPRK's regime bears a LOT of responsibility for what's happened. They're not isolated from the world; their trade with China actually increased after the recent flare-up with South Korea. European business interests (http://www.eba-pyongyang.org/index.php) also have a presence in the DPRK; and I seem to recall Coca Cola and KFC starting up in the country? The list goes on.

The sanctions on the DPRK are ostensibly related to their weapons program. The USA is involved in sending non-military aid to the DPRK. See here (http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PCAAB894.pdf).

The USA doesn't seek to obliterate any country with "moderate defiance to free markets". That's crazy talk, because 1) "free markets" aren't really a primary functioning point of capitalism anyway, as evident by (to use just one of many examples) the USA's restrictions on business during the so-called "progressive era", reforms that were actually pushed for by many in the business community, and 2) the good ol' days of socialist Bonapartism during the Cold War, with everyone from Peru to Tanzania joining in, didn't result in the same level of disaster that the DPRK enjoys...although they all ended in failure, of course...that's to be expected whenever a benevolent military clique decides to give all the little people socialism. If anything the repression should've been incredibly harsh then, as the USA was doing battle with another economic titan, the USSR.

[Apoi_Viitor]

DPRK,Cuba, Vietnam prior to 1995... overall, none of these states have achieved the overall socio-economic features of socialism ( some more than others, though,). That said, they all have a feature in common: Embargo by the United States.

I made a comment on this a while back:


Regardless of whether or not North Korea is a communist/socialist state, its attempts to create one has only brought misery to its citizens. Sure it doesn't ask for blockades and embargoes - nor does it desire to spend huge sums of money on military spending, thus limiting its spending in key areas... however, its existence forces it to.

I'd agree with your point about "shameless mercenary opportunism" in the context of say... East Germany vs. West Germany, but North Korea's strive to build socialism in one country has led to major famines and an underdeveloped and isolated economy...

[AnonymousOne]

South Korea! They have amazingly fast internet! :D

[Apoi_Viitor]

the good ol' days of socialist Bonapartism during the Cold War, with everyone from Peru to Tanzania joining in, didn't result in the same level of disaster that the DPRK enjoys...although they all ended in failure, of course...that's to be expected whenever a benevolent military clique decides to give all the little people socialism. If anything the repression should've been incredibly harsh then, as the USA was doing battle with another economic titan, the USSR.

There's one flaw in this argument, which is: that during the Cold War, there was a giant communist trading bloc. For example, (To the best of my knowledge) North Korea didn't face any economic crisis before the collapse of the USSR, which is when the era of "socialist bonapartism" you are referring to existed. So it's clear that comparing present day North Korea to some cold war socialist regime is dishonest. I bet that if you were to take any socialist economy from the cold war era, and hit them with the economic embargoes that North Korea has been struck with, it's more than likely they would be facing a similar economic disaster. Maybe not to the same extent, but that's only because North Korea lacks the available resources to maintain its population.

[Ocean Seal]

I voted North because Kim's got the ill sunglasses.

[Rêve Rouge]

Never been to S Korea, but the S Koreans I have met are kinda douchebags.


I vote North, just because I'm adventurous.

They're very...nationalistic. Let's put it that way. Not too surprising given that they're one of the top homogeneous nations. I've heard non ethnic Koreans face much discrimination, especially Japanese people(probably because of the annexation).

[Tenka]

North if they relaxed the restrictions on hair length and dress and I could get an indoor job to avoid a tan.

[Prairie Fire]

1) "free markets" aren't really a primary functioning point of capitalism anyway, as evident by (to use just one of many examples) the USA's restrictions on business during the so-called "progressive era", reforms that were actually pushed for by many in the business community,


"Free Markets"= Slang for the proliferation of American buisness interests on the world scale. In the literal sense of the term, you are correct.

[Dr Mindbender]

The problem with living in North Korea is that once you're there, you're stuck.

Maybe I'm a dirty capitalist imperialist pig but i love the internet and playstation too much.

[Metacomet]

The problem with living in North Korea is that once you're there, you're stuck.

Maybe I'm a dirty capitalist imperialist pig but i love the internet and playstation too much.


At least you'll have coke and KFC.

[Bardo]

South.

I suspect most of those who chose North are trolling. I don't understand why anyone would actually want to live in the DPRK.

[Triple A]

DPRK= 53
ROK=140

Anyone who voted for the ROK is someone who would bail on socialism as soon as it wasn't immediately prosperous. The first snag in the road, they would defect.

Learn from the DPRK. Whether you agree with the official ideology or not, this is exactly what would happen to any country that has a government that is even moderately defiant to free markets, let alone socialist. For those who haven't learned from Cuba and the DPRK, an embargo is usually in the cards, as well as a military intervention.

Any absence of food taking place in the North is not by design. Which regime, even an "authoritarian" one, would purposely de-stabilize themselves? Which regime would consciously create the conditions among the population to necesitate their own removal?


You would chose a nazi government as long as they oposed free market.

If a call myself a vegetarian and eat meat I am no vegetarian.
If i call myself socialist and fuck the workers so my family keeps on power like in a monarchy I am no socialist.



Sometimes I get the feeling if fascist Italy had call themselfs communists some people would support them.

[punisa]

If I knew that I would not be starving or being accused as a spy I would definitely choose North Korea. Pyongyang seems as a pretty nice city and if we discard all the nasty things we hear about Kim's regime I think many of you would agree.

For one I would really enjoy walking down the street without hundreds of billboards screaming at me to buy some new crap.
Also there are very few cars and I consider this to be an advantage.
There are other elements that I saw in various films from Pjongjang, such as that people all come out of the buildings in the morning and collectively exercise while huge speakers are blasting revolutionary songs - this seems like fun to me :)
And yeah... those NK revolutionary songs are actually amazing :cool:

If there were no food shortages and paranoia, I believe NK would be a nice place to live.
South Korea on the other hand is a typical capitalist dog-eat-dog hellhole just as the US and Europe. One bad move and you end up jobless and homeless.

Also, from what I've heard crime rate in North Korea is virtually non existent. A major plus in my book.

[punisa]

This sort of shameless mercenary opportunism would translate into their conduct in a hypothetical socialist state as well. As I said, as soon as they were not immediately prosperous in a socialist state, they would defect to where-ever they could get a better deal, regardless of whether or not this better deal came at the cost of exploitation.

This is probably one of the best comments in the whole thread.
Spot on and unfortunately very true.
It's sad to see that many so called leftists simply dismiss the fact that "stuff" they would enjoy in South Korea is a product of exploitation. They are aware of it, but choose not to care.

Let's imagine this... What if NK was indeed a genuine communist state, but living there would necessitate giving up on certain things? Western products, internet connectivity or even an abundance of food.
Would you then choose the north? Unlikely.
Many would simply say - screw their ideological rants, I'm staying in Seul where I can always get a juice fat hamburger.

[x359594]

Personally, I'd prefer to live in a singled unified socialist Korea.

[Dr Mindbender]

Personally, I'd prefer to live in a singled unified socialist Korea.

How much would it really differ from the current isolationist North?

I'm guessing not significantly.

Besides unification will never play out that way, if by unified socialist you mean united under Pyongyang rule. China and the USA wont allow it. Unification will eventually come but its going to be a unified capitalist Korea ruled from Seoul, under the ROK's terms.

[Sendo]

Unless you've studied Korea quite extensively or have visited either or both parts of Korea, then shut the fuck up. I am so fucking sick of these South vs North things.

South Korea is not a hell-hole filled of capitalist pig-dogs. It's a state whose foreign policy will be under a watchful and armed US, sadly. The people are a mixed group and the Gwangju and Jeju massacres serve to show that the people are no more of one mind than Americans are. The right wing party in power is on the downswing and most parties left of the centrist Democratic Party (excepting the Socialist Party) are working out a new party unified on the principle of recognizing NORTH KOREA AS A LEGITIMATE STATE.

North Korea is not the cartoonish land of evil, either. I have not been there, but the Associated Press was able to open an office in Pyongyang.

And I found that out those last two tidbits from reading a left-leaning newspaper from South Korea.

The best thing and most likely route towards unification would be a PRC/ROK relationship of trade and tourism as soon as possible.

So unless you've been on the peninsula or have some specialized knowledge on the place, shut up. No more phony-communists taking pot shots at the North, and no more delusional communists denying the Kims' mismanagement.

South Korea, unlike America, spends money on infrastructure and job creation, and doesn't tax the workers to pay for the world's greatest war machine. It is a far more promising place to be than the West right now. Enjoy the debt crises and austerity!

[Libertador]

From what I've read North Korea is effectively a totalitarian military junta while the south at least has some form of democratic representation (albeit highly nationalist, capitalist, and undemocratic in many ways*).


* It is a capital punishment to hold leftist views, for instance.

[General Lud]

As someone who has lived in South Korea for the past year, I must say this thread is absurd. Perhaps I have an affinity for anthropology, but it’s a sad statement that not in 7 pages did anyone bring up the culture of the people we are making hasty generalizations about, into question. I understand this is a message board based on certain economic principles, but as rational thinking people, we should at least be able to comprehend there is other factors which determine a given people value to our planet beside the economic paradigm held by their elite...

As they say,
'To a man with a hammer (and sickle I suppose)
Everything looks like a nail'

[x359594]

As someone who has lived in South Korea for the past year, I must say this thread is absurd. Perhaps I have an affinity for anthropology, but it’s a sad statement that not in 7 pages did anyone bring up the culture of the people we are making hasty generalizations about, into question...

One people, one language, one common history. That was my experience of residing in the ROK and a 10 day visit to the DPRK

However, there are ancient regional differences, and in a unified socialist country, these differences have the potential to develop into the creation of autonomous regions.

[x359594]

How much would it really differ from the current isolationist North?...I'm guessing not significantly...

We don't share the same understanding about the politico-economic system of the DPRK.

So as far as I'm concerned, a socialist Korea would look much different from the state capitalist North and the monopoly capitalist South

The DPRK is, in my view, a state capitalist family despotism. Surplus value is extracted from the working class and mulcted and re-invested, with the state serving as owner of the means of production. Sole prerogative of production remains in the hands of a salaried manager class in the employ of the state. This is not socialism by a long shot.

[Apoi_Viitor]

Let's imagine this... What if NK was indeed a genuine communist state, but living there would necessitate giving up on certain things? Western products, internet connectivity or even an abundance of food.
Would you then choose the north? Unlikely.

If "genuine communism" were to bring underdevelopment and food shortages then I would cease being a communist.

[Rss]

If "genuine communism" were to bring underdevelopment and food shortages then I would cease being a communist.

Yes, because in times of immense crisis and siege socialism is able to procure supplies and food stuffs out of thin air.

Naive notion of young socialist nation being left alone by imperialist countries is dangerous and depressingly widespread in leftist community. Of course they are going to use every available ploy, trick, military intervention and embargo in their arsenal to crush the revolution. History has proved it again and again.

[Tim Finnegan]

Yes, because in times of immense crisis and siege socialism is able to procure supplies and food stuffs out of thin air.

Naive notion of young socialist nation being left alone by imperialist countries is dangerous and depressingly widespread in leftist community. Of course they are going to use every available ploy, trick, military intervention and embargo in their arsenal to crush the revolution. History has proved it again and again.
[email protected] In One Country

[Rss]

[email protected] In One Country

Because revolutions go off with precise timing.

[DarkPast]

Gotta love the people who fantasize about having all the benefits of a self-sufficient socialist system together with all the consumer goods of the West (most of them produced in sweatshops).

This is exactly what the Western media pitched to the people in Eastern Europe, especially from the 80's onwards. And we all know how it turned out.

So I completely agree with Rss on this one. Revolutions have to start somewhere - the capitalist nations won't just disappear overnight. And you can bet that one of the first thing the reactionary elites will try to do is isolate any successful revolutionary movement from the global economic system.

[twenty percent tip]

id rather live inyour moms basement. dwweenb. whats afucked question.id rather live in commonisme:confused:

[bcbm]

* It is a capital punishment to hold leftist views, for instance.

i don't think this is true...

[twenty percent tip]

booksby Marx arebanned in both countries.fuck em. fuck countreis. id rather live on earth a s areal person. internet clebrity

[Tablo]

From what I've read North Korea is effectively a totalitarian military junta while the south at least has some form of democratic representation (albeit highly nationalist, capitalist, and undemocratic in many ways*).


* It is a capital punishment to hold leftist views, for instance.
Not true at all. They can target leftists for certain activities, but they do not execute people for being leftist.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

From what I've read North Korea is effectively a totalitarian military junta while the south at least has some form of democratic representation (albeit highly nationalist, capitalist, and undemocratic in many ways*).


* It is a capital punishment to hold leftist views, for instance.

I didn't know we recognised bourgeoisie representative democracy as being of any value; not to mention, that DPRK also has its own silly pretend-"democratic representation".

Both North and South can essentially be considered to be "police states", however.

[GPDP]

Yeah, both are pretty shitty places to live. Obviously I understand many of the DPRK's problems come from its economic isolation, and of course its southern neighbor is fully capitalist and has its own authoritarian tendencies.

But I understand the thread's purpose to be whether I would prefer to live in either country as they currently are, and frankly, I don't see how South Korea isn't the better place at the moment. Yeah I know, this makes me an opportunist consumerist blah blah blah, but it's not really something that can be disputed.

Plus, I'm a huge fan of Starcraft. SK loves its Starcraft. :)

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

* It is a capital punishment to hold leftist views, for instance.

That's not true.

I picked up a paper from South Korea's version of the ISO just this year. Two young female students were tabling for them in Seoul.

From Wikipedia's article on the National Security Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Act_%28South_Korea%29):


The National Security Law is a South Korean law which has the avowed purpose "to restrict anti-state acts that endanger national security and to protect [the] nation's safety and its people's life and freedom."

Based on the Law for Maintenance of the Public Security of the Japanese Korea, it was passed in 1948, and made illegal both communism and recognition of North Korea as a political entity. It has been reformed and strengthened with the passing of the times. The Anti-communism Law was merged into the National Security Law during the 1980s.

This law is acknowledged by some South Korean politicians and activists as a symbol of the anti-communism of South Korea's First Republic and its dictatorial period of 1964-1987. In 2004, legislators of the Uri Party, then with a majority, made a gesture as to annul the law, but failed owing to Grand National Party opposition. Many recent poll results from Chojoongdong, which is biased toward the Korean legal profession (lawyers, judges, public prosecutors and legal professors, etc.) and conservative political parties, allegedly show that more than half of the Korean people are against the abolition of the act, and the dispute continues.

This law has been regularly blamed for restricting freedom of speech:

- Citizens may not join an organization with aims to overthrow the government;
- Citizens may not create, distribute or possess materials that promote anti-government ideas;
- Citizens may not neglect to report others who violate this law.

...

The easiest to violate are Article 7 Clause 3 (Creation, Importation, Copying, Possession, Transportation, Distribution, and Selling of "Enemy's Expressions") and Article 10. (Knowingly not reporting violations to some articles). The South Korean High Court has a ruling history since 1978 that has classified 1,220 books and print material as "Enemy's Expressions" by force of precedence.

Two state-established Research Institutes decide what books and print material meet the criteria of "Enemy's Expressions": the Democratic Ideology Institute, established in 1997 and under the direct orders of the Chief Prosecutor, and the Public Safety Affairs Institute of the Korea National Police University.

However, since early 1990s, the Public Prosecutor's Office has chosen not to bring any citizens (or publishers) to the courts for what's deemed by common sense as not risky. Courts still invoke the law when increasing fines or years in prison for political charges against what the South Korean State deems subversive groups.

South Korea is a pretty repressive place, but that can be said of capitalist rule worldwide.

[o well this is ok I guess]

The South, obviously.
I can't dumpster dive in the north.

[General Lud]

booksby Marx arebanned in both countries.fuck em. fuck countreis. id rather live on earth a s areal person. internet clebrity

False, I bought Capital here.

Did you spill Pepsi on your keyboard?

[DarkPast]

I think that Marxist writings are only banned within military bases in SK (or to soldiers - something like that). I do know that sites at all sympathetic to DPRK are blocked, though. You can also get arrested for praising DPRK or its leaders.

[Sam Varriano]

I have a friend who lives in Hong Kong, he got to go visit North Korea and said he enjoyed it. I don't have much to base this on but out of pure curiosity I'll go with North Korea, just because.

[black magick hustla]

lol people who chose dprk are lying. south korea is a more prosperous place where you probably find a better standard of living. is like choosing between cuba and the united states. good god

[black magick hustla]

besides south koreans have an honorable rioting tradition, have you ever seen south korean riot porn. may day videos? jesus

[Sendo]

I didn't know we recognised bourgeoisie representative democracy as being of any value; not to mention, that DPRK also has its own silly pretend-"democratic representation".

Both North and South can essentially be considered to be "police states", however.

This thread is full Of teh lulz. Let me know when south korea has the same police cctv per capita as the uk or allows cops to harass for not carrying my papers at all times. Nothing human and x359594 are some of the few who have a clue. Gdpd had nice remark about the whole peninsula being a crap place to live...from someone living in a country where 1/6 are malnourished. Get over to korea or read up some more. Its not 1980 anymore

I dont know where these tales of rok death squads are from. Its been a civilian government for nearly two decades. Explicitly supporting the dprk is shamefully illegal but not a capital offense and rarely a jailable one. Technically theyre still at civil war what do you expect? You can hope for socialist reunification but praising the kims on your website or newspaper is illegal, granted

There is oppression and free speech is not respected too well but criticism is open and widespread. Its also a sign that the korean labor movements and leftists and social dems present a credible threat. Compare the ssangyong strike to the gm strikes.... Oh wait


Next time you go shopping for a car or tv or ship think about how poor korea is. If anyone cares by the way the seoul metro is by far the most advanced and most extensive metro in the world. The state provides it at $1 a ride ( up to $3 if you travel like 60km ) and provides cheaper and free rides to school children and seniors respectively. Look at the college graduation ratesand literacy.

It pisses me off how backwards people think it is. Its transport infrastructure and electrification and cell phone and internet coverage puts the uk and the usa to fucking shame

I listen to people talk about london and new york and think about what ive seen. I think about overpriced they are. I think about the expenses of us colleges. I dont see a superior system in place

This whole thing is stupid. All but a few posters from the prc, etc are writing from capitalist countries but i dont hear them saying live in germany or cuba. The culture as pointed is a factor. To those who fear the poverty of the north: there is more to living in korea or anywhere than being able to buy western comforts. I hate how this treated as some awful dilemma--as in whats worse? As if no one would consider living here unless it was a hypothetical or asked at gunpoint. Brilliant. This is revleft right? Not fucking stormfront then? The people living here have independent ideas and arent part of the terrain. Youre like househunters deciding between a house next to a dormant volcano or by a creek that gets flooded a lot.

Nobody thought to ask what people do for fun? Does that count? Ever gonna befriend any of the saps? People in wando go fishing and people in hongdae go to art shows. I dont know much about the north? Do they like hiking? What does comrade joe (the defector) do with his family on a sunday? What do russian exchange students think of campus life and sports?

No. Fuck that.

[Sendo]

Too many know it all opinions and not questions. Make sure your ill-informed two cents in. I for one am genuinely curious what the average week is like for a north korean. Those who have been there, whats your impression?

[Geiseric]

Aren't there pictures online that show what NK looks like? I mean aren't those enough to show that it isn't a very pleasent place to raise kids in?

[pax et aequalitas]

South Korea, because that one is easier to leave.

[Love Happiness]

I have not heard good things about North Korea. Isn't the country a dictatorship with the worst human rights abuses on Earth?

[Tablo]

Sendo knows what he's talking about. I've never been to Korea, but I've studied it extensively and my best friend is from the country. Also got a penpal from the ROK. Hopefully I will be studying in Seoul next year(I'm a Korean student).

[HanDoJin]

Let me think.

a) One of the safest, most modern, well-organised and tech-savvy countries on the planet?

or

b) a country where this very conversation would be both near impossible and punishable by death?

Having spent 5 days in the DPRK last year I can't pretend I'm in much of a hurry to return to a place that has utterly extinguished even the remotest semblance of critical thought. They've some really interesting ideas and some entirely legitimate grievances, but the leaders are raw morons to a man.

[Imposter Marxist]

How old is this thread? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JphWi_GOIao

[Decommissioner]

South.

One thing to consider, though, is ironically if you are an american and defect to nk you just might turn into a celebrity. Saw a documentary about some american defectors that became movie stars in nk films.

I just don't see the appeal in nk, or why someone would want to live in a repressive and impoverished country. Not to say sk isn't repressive, but there are degrees, and in a world without absolutes I would say sk is far less repressive.

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

Both

[Jose Gracchus]

Everyone who said DPRK is a lying sack of shit. Those FRSO-FB/WWP/PSL poseurs need a reality check.

[Imposter Marxist]

calm down, Makhno

[∞]

You guys are stilling posting here?

[The Stalinator]

I have not heard good things about North Korea. Isn't the country a dictatorship with the worst human rights abuses on Earth?

From what I've heard Kim removed a lot, if not all mentions of socialism from the constitution and there's a lot of propaganda about "racial purity", and the superiority of the Korean race, all that bullshit.

So I have no idea why anyone on here would sympathize with that country.

[tanklv]

This is a joke question, right. North Korea? Seriously?

Yeah, I want to live in a totalitarian, shit hole run by a crazy dictator grandchild of the original batshit insane dictator who made it the shithole it is today.

Unless this was presented as a opportunity to go to some shithole, work real hard, and try to make it better, then I guess the joke is on us...