James Madison Agrees With Marx & Lenin?

[Rakhmetov]

I added this to my signature.

But the most common and durable source of factions has been the various and unequal distribution of property. The protection of these [unequal] faculties [of acquiring property] is the first object of Government. James Madison, Federalist No. 10

The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles. Karl Marx, Communist Manifesto

Democracy is a state, an organization for the systematic use of violence by one class against another. Lenin, State and Revolution

[RadioRaheem84]

Every figure of that time period "agreed" with Marx. It's just that Marx turned everything on it's head by saying that this outlook was morally wrong and unjustified.

[Zanthorus]

Marx himself acknowledged that the basic idea of class struggle as a motive force in history was not all that original:


Now as for myself, I do not claim to have discovered either the existence of classes in modern society or the struggle between them. Long before me, bourgeois historians had described the historical development of this struggle between the classes, as had bourgeois economists their economic anatomy.http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/letters/52_03_05.htm

[Rusty Shackleford]

Had socialism been as developed as it were by the late 1800s but in the mid 1700s. the us would have had a communist revolution.
the american revolutionaries were progressives of their time. had they been even more progressive, well, the US could have been red by now.

classical liberalism comes before socialism and therefore some ideas are interchangable. some abstract and some concrete.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force.

^That's another quote that has always reminded me of some people on this board...

[RadioRaheem84]

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force.


Well if right libertarian, or classical lliberals know this. Then why do they spend so much time denying this as a bad thing if it serves their interests (as their ideological forefathers knew all too well).

[Sturzo]

Had socialism been as developed as it were by the late 1800s but in the mid 1700s. the us would have had a communist revolution.
the american revolutionaries were progressives of their time. had they been even more progressive, well, the US could have been red by now.

classical liberalism comes before socialism and therefore some ideas are interchangable. some abstract and some concrete.

I think that's a serious stretch to make. You should remember many of the founding fathers were apart of the owning class and had slaves - I don't think they hardly believed in the greater emancipation of the lower classes.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I think that's a serious stretch to make. You should remember many of the founding fathers were apart of the owning class and had slaves - I don't think they hardly believed in the greater emancipation of the lower classes.
they were bourgeois. therefore in relation to feudalism they were progressive. the discussion about the american revolution on revleft leads to a conclusion that the north's victory over the south was the completion of the revolution because it finally led to the illegality of slavery and an extension of constitutional rights to blacks in america(but still no rights to natives). a near 100 year political and ideological battle.

[FreeFocus]

I think that's a serious stretch to make. You should remember many of the founding fathers were apart of the owning class and had slaves - I don't think they hardly believed in the greater emancipation of the lower classes.

Not to fucking mention, they established a settler state and several of them imagined the US as an "infant empire," even back then.

Hardly progressive - maybe progressive for white settlers or the European world which was largely stuck in despotism, but that's about it.

[RadioRaheem84]

Yeah I would say the US Founding Fathers intended for a sort of imperialist Republic. Heck some of them wanted outright monarchy!

[~Spectre]

It's simply an example of why the phrase "speaking truth to power", is so flawed. Power is perfectly aware of the truth.

[Adil3tr]

Had socialism been as developed as it were by the late 1800s but in the mid 1700s. the us would have had a communist revolution.
the american revolutionaries were progressives of their time. had they been even more progressive, well, the US could have been red by now.

classical liberalism comes before socialism and therefore some ideas are interchangable. some abstract and some concrete.

Not as much as you would think, a lot of revolutionary sentiment was furthered by the rich and the colonial leaders who wanted to control the colonies for themselves and spread west. If there had been a communist movement, it would have been suppressed by the colonial leadership. Even if it had still been successful, the founding fathers wouldn't have helped it at all, except perhaps Tom Paine. That being said, even Marx saw the revolution as important for progress.

[scarletghoul]

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force.
Haha, it's like 2 Mao quotes rolled into one.