Amnesty International?

[Crvena-Zastava]

I just joined Amnesty International Australia, and I was curious on your opinions on it?

Obviously they are politically neutral and are only interested in humans rights and such, so I cant see how they can be on the receiving end of Communist Angst at all.

[bricolage]

The attempt to present every event from the impartial perspective of 'human rights' (*) means they can sometimes veer into the spurious realm of 'neutrality'. Neutrality as conceived as 'both sides of the argument' tends to support the status quo as if you are not challenge what exists you are in many ways tacitly supporting it (this is most commonly seen in coverage of the Palestinian conflict). Additionally they can sometimes view events as abstractions seperate from the material and historical conditions that gave birth to them.

I still think a lot of their reports are worth reading and while the conclusions they reach are nine times out of ten very problematic the research is normally quite good.

* I think there is also a case against the whole idea of human rights. Essentially the extension of religious notions of natural rights they exist to cement certain things as inherently 'true' and 'right' and do not accept that they, like other conceptions of 'rights', are social constructs. As such the Universal Declaration of Human Rights protects private property, something everyone here would object to, but it becomes harder to argue against something once it is a 'human right'. Of course there is also the problem of rights as a whole, rights are things that are given, granted and taken away by existing institutions of dominance (most commonly the state), in many ways they are the direct anthiseis of liberation or emancipation which comes from below not from above.

[Chimurenga.]

Here's a great article on how they've directly helped Imperialism: http://gowans.wordpress.com/2010/07/20/amnesty-international-botches-blame-for-north-korea%e2%80%99s-crumbling-healthcare/


Amnesty International and Imperialism
The United Nations Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights recognized in 1997 that sanctions “often cause significant disruptions in the distribution of food, pharmaceuticals and sanitation supplies, jeopardize the quality of food and the availability of clean drinking water, severely interfere with the functioning of basic health and educational systems, and undermine the right to work.” [27] These disruptions were evident in Iraq in the 1990s, and led to the crumbling of the country’s healthcare system, contributing to what the UN Humanitarian Coordinator in Iraq, Denis Halliday, called “a de facto genocide.” [28] Additionally, the deleterious effects of US economic warfare on the Cuban healthcare system are uncontested except by anti-Castro émigrés and the US government. [29] If we recognize that “economic sanctions are, at their core, a war against public health” and acknowledge, as a former US president has, that North Korea is “the most sanctioned nation in the world,” it is difficult not to draw the obvious conclusion: that North Korea’s crumbling healthcare system and “great leap backwards” are not due in large measure to Pyongyang’s “failed or counterproductive” policies, but to the inhumane policies of the United States, Japan and South Korea.

(http://gowans.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/ghw-bush.jpg)Amnesty International’s contributions to US imperialism are not unprecedented. In 1991 the rights organization claimed that Iraqi soldiers had thrown Kuwaiti babies from incubators, a hoax, perpetrated by the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the United States. When US President George H.W. Bush appeared on television to announce that he was readying for war on Iraq, he had a copy of the Amnesty report in his hands.

Amnesty’s failure to point to the role played by the United States and its allies in undermining the conditions that would allow Pyongyang to fulfill the healthcare and other rights of North Koreans, and its willingness to play a part in legitimizing Washington’s foreign policy agenda, is not without precedent. While Amnesty was critical of the human rights record of apartheid South Africa, it alone among human rights organizations refused to denounce apartheid itself. [30] The organization also refused to condemn the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia [31], even though it was an exercise in imperial predation that denied the rights of many innocent Yugoslavs to life, security of the person and employment. Amnesty excused its inaction on grounds that it is not an antiwar organization, as if war and human rights are not often inextricably bound. The war on Yugoslavia certainly was, at least rhetorically, since NATO invoked the language of human rights to justify its attack. But Amnesty’s most egregious service to the propaganda requirements of US foreign policy came in 1991, when the rights group released a report in the run-up to the Gulf War claiming that Iraqi soldiers had thrown Kuwaiti babies from incubators. This was a hoax, perpetrated by the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the United States, orchestrated by the public relations firm Hill & Knowlton, which had been hired to launch a propaganda campaign to galvanize public support for a US war on Iraq. When US President George H.W. Bush appeared on television to announce that he was readying for war on Iraq, he had a copy of the Amnesty report in his hands. [32]
Fuck Amnesty International.

[Adil3tr]

If you honestly support north Korea's phsyco state, you're unfairly giving the rest of us a bad name. I support amnesty international for helping political prisoners and further human right, that said, they could a little more.

[Chimurenga.]

If you honestly support north Korea's phsyco state, you're unfairly giving the rest of us a bad name. I support amnesty international for helping political prisoners and further human right, that said, they could a little more.

I don't give a shit about "giving you a bad name". What is this a popularity contest? I support the DPRK as a Socialist state and as an anti-Imperialist state.

The article I posted shows how hypocritical they are in their "fight for human rights".

[danyboy27]

well, amnesty is just like most of the NGO, easy to manipulate by every group that can give them evidences of an attrocity that might be fraudulent.

that being said, they have to condemn so many batshit insane things they came across that they probably dont have the time to make a deep analisys of every cause they fight.

[Adil3tr]

Is life better in North Korea or South? Or North Korea or Cuba? Come on, they don;t exactly fit the mold of socialist. I mean, mabe they should have been unified from the beginning on the soviet bloc, But Kim Jong il is crazy.

[RadioRaheem84]

Even liberal Naomi Klein easily smashes the aura of such groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty in The Shock Doctrine.

[Chimurenga.]

Is life better in North Korea or South? Or North Korea or Cuba? Come on, they don;t exactly fit the mold of socialist. I mean, mabe they should have been unified from the beginning on the soviet bloc, But Kim Jong il is crazy.

South Korea is a US Puppet state so I can imagine that life isn't all that great. I'm pretty sure they share little, if any of the social services that the DPRK has. How don't they fit a mold of Socialism? Their economy is centrally planned, their government operates on democratic centralism, their social services are always improving, they have unions and multiple parties, the largest union operates within the Supreme Peoples Assembly which is the highest organ of the state, etc. I'm not saying it's perfect, nothing is. They, like Cuba, had to introduce some reforms in order to preserve the revolutionary state.

The DPRK, since the beginning of their independence, has tried to unite with the South.

[Adil3tr]

I'm going to say this again, Kim Jong Il is like Stalin with schizophrenia and the mind of a child.

[Chimurenga.]

I'm going to say this again, Kim Jong Il is like Stalin with schizophrenia and the mind of a child.

Schizophrenia? Mind of a child? Of what grounds can you remotely prove either of these claims?

Edit: In before usage of bourgeois sources.

[scarletghoul]

I'm going to say this again, Kim Jong Il is like Stalin with schizophrenia and the mind of a child.
Uhh wow, is there even any pretence at substance or meaning in this post at all ??

I request a warning be given to this user, not for being opposed to the DPRK (there are sound debates to be had from that view), but for just posting idiotic one-liners that contribute absoloutely nothing to any discussion and only say "i dont like kim jong il he is crazy team america said so therefore north korea is bad crazy asian mass murderr". These posts really suck and we should all, both pro- and anti- DPRK comrades, oppose them in the interests of quality control. Mindless unoriginal unfunny racist caricatures have no place in a leftist discussion.

[Invincible Summer]

I'm going to say this again, Kim Jong Il is like Stalin with schizophrenia and the mind of a child.

Is this the official ISO line? :lol:


Seriously, that's some really shitty analysis and reason to not like the DPRK.



But yes, to be on topic, Amnesty International's "neutrality" is basically de facto Eurocentrism.

[gorillafuck]

I'm going to say this again, Kim Jong Il is like Stalin with schizophrenia and the mind of a child.
No, he's like a military dictator with neither of those conditions.

[bailey_187]

its always fun arguing that human rights do not exist with their volunteers when they try get donations from me at the train station :thumbup1:

[Barry Lyndon]

The attempt to present every event from the impartial perspective of 'human rights' (*) means they can sometimes veer into the spurious realm of 'neutrality'. Neutrality as conceived as 'both sides of the argument' tends to support the status quo as if you are not challenge what exists you are in many ways tacitly supporting it (this is most commonly seen in coverage of the Palestinian conflict). Additionally they can sometimes view events as abstractions seperate from the material and historical conditions that gave birth to them.

This. I was a active in both my high school chapter of Amnesty International and for the first two years of college. But one thing that increasingly bothered me, especially as I became more and more explicitly Marxist in my views, was the way that in so many of its reports AI simply equated the violence of repressive oligarchic right-wing governments and that of revolutionary left-wing organizations fighting those governments(the Nepalese and Indian Maoists, Colombian FARC, the Tamil Tigers), while at the same time ignoring the horrific inequality and poverty that produced such groups in the first place.

Similarly with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict- the title of their report on Israel's 2008-09 assault on Gaza said 'both sides' were guilty of 'war crimes', after 100 Palestinians had been slaughtered for every Israeli that had died. Their striving to be 'nuetral' leads them to live in denial of reality.

The thing that is really fucked up about this whole situation is that AI, and liberalish groups like it generally, appeal to 'international law' and the 'international community' to protect human rights. To virtually any sentient being, it is clear that international law is not worth the paper its written on when it comes to protecting the workers and peasants of the Third World from the violence of local oligarchs and foreign imperialists. But when the victims of such violence take up arms to protect themselves, they are condemned for not having the patience for Western human rights groups to save them by writing letters of protest to those who torture and kill them. It recalls how for many years the main tactic of the abolitionists in the United States was 'moral suasion'-writing letters to slaveowners presenting moral arguments as to why they should give up their human chattel. Needless to say, it didn't work.

Francis Boyle, a professor of international law at the University of Urbana-Champaign and former active member of AI, put it this way:

"Amnesty International is primarily motivated not by human rights but by publicity. Second comes money. Third comes getting more members. Fourth, internal turf battles. And then finally, human rights, genuine human rights concerns. To be sure, if you are dealing with a human rights situation in a country that is at odds with the United States or Britain, it gets an awful lot of attention, resources, man and womanpower, publicity, you name it, they can throw whatever they want at that. But if it's dealing with violations of human rights by the United States, Britain, Israel, then it's like pulling teeth to get them to really do something on the situation. They might, very reluctantly and after an enormous amount of internal fightings and battles and pressures, you name it. But you know, it's not like the official enemies list."

[RadioRaheem84]

What about Human Rights Watch?

[ContrarianLemming]

Even liberal Naomi Klein easily smashes the aura of such groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty in The Shock Doctrine.

shes a socialist.

[ContrarianLemming]

I support the DPRK as a Socialist state and as an anti-Imperialist state.


Why arn't people like this in OI?

[Barry Lyndon]

What about Human Rights Watch?

Even worse. Put out the longest human rights report in their entire history(218 pages!)against 'human rights violations' in Venezuela under Hugo Chavez(nearly all of its sources were from the right-wing political opposition), but at the same time refused to issue a report for over six months addressing the human rights abuses of the coup government in Honduras. Never mind Colombia.
If AI equivocates, HRW flat out propagandizes.

[RadioRaheem84]

shes a socialist.

This is one area where I really want to be wrong. Most of the stuff Ive read from her points to her being a left Keynesian.

[ContrarianLemming]

This is one area where I really want to be wrong. Most of the stuff Ive read from her points to her being a left Keynesian.

In No Logo she explciitly says anti capitalist things, I think I can point to her saying shes a socialist, but sadly I get the feeling she a wishy washy kind of socialist.

[Raúl Duke]

I recall that AI usually does campaigns about political prisoners in China...
yet to my knowledge I'm unaware of any campaign they do for potentially political prisoners in the U.S.

Also, I recall once that there were these Serbian anarcho-syndicalists who were indicted and arrested on charges of International Terrorism for some grafitti and other things, things which there was no proof they even did (nor are worthy of charges of "terrorism"), in some location (A Greek embassy?) in Belgrade and while some anarchist websites mentioned it AI did not mention it even so to me these anarcho-syndicalists are obvious political prisoners.


Amnesty International's "neutrality" is basically de facto Eurocentrism. This reminds me on how almost everything AI covers these days are outside Europe/North America even though there are political prisoners in some cases within Europe/North America (for example, the Serbian anarcho-syndicalists put to jail on trump-up charges).

[Chimurenga.]

Why arn't people like this in OI?

Why aren't people like you who contribute absolutely nothing insightful to this forum except ignorant one-liners and trolling outright banned altogether?

[ContrarianLemming]

I recall that AI usually does campaigns about political prisoners in China...
yet to my knowledge I'm unaware of any campaign they do for potentially political prisoners in the U.S.

Also, I recall once that there were these Serbian anarcho-syndicalists who were indicted and arrested on charges of International Terrorism for some grafitti and other things, things which there was no proof they even did, in some location (A Greek embassy?) in Belgrade and while some anarchist websites mentioned it AI did not mention it even so to me these anarcho-syndicalists are obvious political prisoners.



This reminds me on how almost everything AI covers these days are outside Europe/North America even though there are political prisoners in some cases within Europe/North America (for example, the Serbian anarcho-syndicalists put to jail on trump-up charges).

thanks for mentioning this, they're called the "Belgrade 6" and thankfully anarchists have anarchist black cross, which is like the anti AI.

[Adil3tr]

I'm going to say this again, Kim Jong Il is like Stalin with schizophrenia and the mind of a child.

Okay... I see where many of you are coming from but let me provide a little list of things that he may or may not do, but you might want to take into consideration,


1
According to North Korean historical literature, Kim Jong Il was born in a log cabin inside a secret base on Korea’s most sacred mountain, Mt. Paekdu. At the moment of his birth, a bright star lit up the sky, the seasons spontaneously changed from winter to spring, and rainbows appeared. This contradicts way less interesting Western accounts of his birth,which state the dictator was born in a guerilla camp in Russia, while his father was on the run from the Japanese.




(http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/100310-kim-jong-il-north-korea.jpg)
2
According to North Korea’s state newspaper Rodong Sinmun, Kim Jong Il’s iconic style has become a global phenomenon. The inspired look of his zipped up khaki tunics with matching pants has been spreading across the world, an obvious testament to his outstanding image and influence. The paper didn’t mention the popularity of the 4 inch platform shoes Kim wears, but his oversized shades definitely seem to be a big hit with the women of Hollywood.


(http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/kim_jong-il_heart_throb1.jpg)
3
According to state-run media, Kimg Jong Il is the most prominent statesman in the present world, and people in countries the whole planet over celebrate his birthday with films and festivals. In reality, most nations are confused by his erratic foreign policy decisions on important issues such as N. Korea’s nuclear program



4
Since any American influences have long since been banned in his tiny communist country, Kim Jong Il had no choice but to create some new non-Western food by himself. North Korean newspaper Minju Joson reported that Kim Jong Il invented a new sandwich called “double bread with meat” in an attempt to provide “quality” food to university students. He then built a plant capable of mass hamburger production to feed his students and teachers, despite the fact that the majority of his citizens battle famine on a daily basis.



5In 1994, it was reported by Pyongyang media outlets that Kim Jong Il shot 38 under par on a regulation 18-hole golf, including 5 holes in one! That score is 25 shots better than the best round in history, and is made even more amazing by the fact that it was his first time playing the sport. It’s said Kim Jong Il would routinely sink 3 or 4 holes in one per round of golf, and – lucky for the PGA – he has since given it up.




6
According to a book written by one of Kim Jong Il’s ex-staff members, he was once injured by falling off his horse when it slipped on loose rocks. He was afraid of becoming addicted to the painkillers that his doctors prescribed him, so he had members of his administrative staff injected daily with the same dosages he had to take. He did this so he wouldn’t be the only one hooked on the drug.


(http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/pulgasari4801.jpg)
7
Shin Sang-ok, a South Korean filmmaker, was kidnapped by Kim Jong Il, sent to prison, and eventually forced to make a film called Pulgasari that was basically a communist propaganda version of Godzilla. After Shin and his wife managed to escape North Korea while location scouting in Austria, Kim Jong Il shelved Pulgasari and all of Shin’s other work. Kim Jong Il has since given specific instruction to his ministry of Culture and his communist filmmakers: “Make more cartoons.”




(http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/kim_jong-il_280x450_11384a.jpg)
8
In preparation for the World Festival of Youth and Students in 1989, Kim Jong Il had disabled residents removed from Pyongyang. The government also distributed pamphlets advertising a wonder drug that would increase the height of short people. Those who responded to the pamphlets were sent away to different uninhabited islands along with the disabled in an attempt to rid the next generation of their supposedly substandard genes.


(http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/kimjongii.jpg)
9
For a few years in the early 1990s, it was confirmed by Hennessy that Kim Jong Il was it’s best customer, spending about $600,000 to $850,000 annually on the liquor. He is partial to the Paradis cognac, which can sell for over $700 per bottle. In comparison, the average North Korean makes about $1000 per year.



10
(http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/400px-northkorea_kijongdong-jpg.jpeg)
He maintains a city that was built just to be looked at
Kijong-Dong is a propaganda city that was originally built in the 1950s by Kim Jong Il’s father right on the border, this was to display the North’s superiority to the South and also to encourage people to defect. It has no actual residents, but an extensive effort has been put forth to simulate a functioning city, including lights on set timers, and street sweepers to create an illusion of activity. The use of modern telescopes has revealed that the units lack window glass, and some buildings are just concrete shells that don’t even have interior rooms. The city also houses the world’s largest flagpole, complete with a 300lb. North Korean flag.

[Invincible Summer]

Source? Also, it doesn't prove anything about Kim Jong-Il being crazy since there are shitloads of lies out there. It's almost a "fact" that he's crazy, so people just seem to make shit up.

He's like god, there's no proof that he actually does any of this stuff, so isn't it more rational to say that he doesn't?



EDIT: Yes, I did just say that Kim Jong-Il is like god.

[Chimurenga.]

Okay... I see where many of you are coming from but let me provide a little list of things that he may or may not do, but you might want to take into consideration,

...Jesus Horatio Christ.

Because where he was born, what he wears, and a slew of obvious bullshit, is a reflection on his mental state and the economic system of the DPRK... :rolleyes:

People on this forum will fucking believe anything.

[ContrarianLemming]

Why aren't people like you who contribute absolutely nothing insightful to this forum except ignorant one-liners and trolling outright banned altogether?

If you had any balls you'd report me in the members section as a troll, see what happens. otherwise you can show some respect.

[Chimurenga.]

If you had any balls you'd report me in the members section as a troll, see what happens. otherwise you can show some respect.

Wow, you're a total bad ass, aren't you?

[RadioRaheem84]

In No Logo she explciitly says anti capitalist things, I think I can point to her saying shes a socialist, but sadly I get the feeling she a wishy washy kind of socialist.

Really? I've never heard her say that. That's great.

[Adil3tr]

This is the one issue where I'm not going to give a single inch. Most of my posts aren't one liners, I read and study extensively,but this is north korea. Come on, besides the fact that human rights abuses are happening there, and besides the fact that you would sound insane defending them in the outside world, kim jong il isn't some misunderstood or misrepresented savior of the proletariat. These stories in the press have more than a grain of truth.

[Tatarin]

I wonder what they have to say about the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan now when all those documents have been leaked.

But instead of joining them, why not join a local (or national) organization and fight for justice that way?

[ContrarianLemming]

Really? I've never heard her say that. That's great.

dont get your hopes up, like I said, shes a wishy washy socialist, ie: one who stays a fair distance away from anything about "class war".

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

This is the one issue where I'm not going to give a single inch. Most of my posts aren't one liners, I read and study extensively,but this is north korea. Come on, besides the fact that human rights abuses are happening there, and besides the fact that you would sound insane defending them in the outside world, kim jong il isn't some misunderstood or misrepresented savior of the proletariat. These stories in the press have more than a grain of truth.

Media says something about North Korea? Oh, it must be true! I mean... why wouldn't it be? They can't have some other motives, no way!

[Chimurenga.]

Most of my posts aren't one liners,

No but they are equally as useless. At least, they are in this thread.


I read and study extensively,but this is north korea.

Evidently, you don't read and study enough.


Come on, besides the fact that human rights abuses are happening there,

Sure, if you only read pro-imperialist sources and fake "human rights" organizations.


and besides the fact that you would sound insane defending them in the outside world,

What is it with you and being worried about what people think of you?


kim jong il isn't some misunderstood or misrepresented savior of the proletariat. These stories in the press have more than a grain of truth.

:laugh:

Wow.

[ContrarianLemming]

You shouldn't feel like you have to debate with cranks adil3tr.

[RadioRaheem84]

:(
dont get your hopes up, like I said, shes a wishy washy socialist, ie: one who stays a fair distance away from anything about "class war".

[ContrarianLemming]

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/267214

[RadioRaheem84]

IDK. Bigger than LA? The camp would be bigger than the capital. And the BBC said that was nothing like it human history? A bit much, no? Not appologizing for NK but they're really laying thick.

[ContrarianLemming]

IDK. Bigger than LA? The camp would be bigger than the capital. And the BBC said that was nothing like it human history? A bit much, no? Not appologizing for NK but they're really laying thick.

I dont care bout the size, just looking at google earth shows beyond refute that there is human rights abuse, gas chambers are visible upon closer inspection apperantly.

[Chimurenga.]

I love how a firm pro-DPRK stance gets under the skin of so many so-called "Leftists". :laugh:


http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/267214

Whoa. Crazy. An article that talks about a prison and relies on "defector" stories from the BBC and Washington Post... Groundbreaking information here. Judging by the titles of the related articles, they serve the same purpose as the aforementioned news outlets.

Another "Leftist" posting with pro-imperialist sources...Why am I not surprised?

Next.

[Adil3tr]

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/267214

hahaha :D
High five

Do any of you honestly beleive every thing anyone says about kim jong il ommiting atrocities is a lie?

[ContrarianLemming]

hahaha :D
High five

Do any of you honestly beleive every thing anyone says about kim jong il ommiting atrocities is a lie?

Only cranks.
And for some reason, only the least pleasant members are like this, I have yet to meet a NK fan who was friendly, I can only surmise that anti social behavior is corrolated with authoritaranism.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Only cranks.
And for some reason, only the least pleasant members are like this, I have yet to meet a NK fan who was friendly, I can only surmise that anti social behavior is corrolated with authoritaranism.

Then why are you not an authoritarian? You're quite unpleasant. :rolleyes:

[Invincible Summer]

This is the one issue where I'm not going to give a single inch. Most of my posts aren't one liners, I read and study extensively,but this is north korea. Come on, besides the fact that human rights abuses are happening there, and besides the fact that you would sound insane defending them in the outside world, kim jong il isn't some misunderstood or misrepresented savior of the proletariat. These stories in the press have more than a grain of truth.

Basically you're saying "Cmon guys... EVERYONE knows that N Korea is craaaaaaazy!!!"

It would serve everyone better to actually get facts rather than basing things on "common knowledge."


http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/267214


"There are reports of inhuman experiments carried out on men, women, children, and even infants sent there. "
Oh noes! Not infants!


"The BBC reports (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/this_world/3436701.stm) that North Korea’s system of spying, thought-control, isolation, and terror may have no equal in human history."
The BBC should learn about this other terrible system of spying, thought-control, and terror: it's called capitalism.

[Invincible Summer]

hahaha :D
High five

Do any of you honestly beleive every thing anyone says about kim jong il ommiting atrocities is a lie?

Do you honestly believe every thing [sic] anyone says about kim jong il is true?

[gorillafuck]

hahaha :D
High five

Do any of you honestly beleive every thing anyone says about kim jong il ommiting atrocities is a lie?
Kim Jong Il's government does commit atrocities, yeah. But that definitely doesn't mean he's an insane crazy lunatic. He is a dictator and the DPRK is not socialist, but caricatures of him as a crazy lunatic with the mind of a child are ridiculous and unfounded.

[ContrarianLemming]

Kim Jong Il's government does commit atrocities, yeah. But that definitely doesn't mean he's an insane crazy lunatic. He is a dictator and the DPRK is not socialist, but caricatures of him as a crazy lunatic with the mind of a child are ridiculous and unfounded.

this^ thank you

[727Goon]

I don't give a shit about "giving you a bad name". What is this a popularity contest? I support the DPRK as a Socialist state and as an anti-Imperialist state.

The article I posted shows how hypocritical they are in their "fight for human rights".

If that's what you call socialism, then you're no comrade of mine.

[RadioRaheem84]

this^ thank you

Than why post stuff like the article. I am sure there are socialist sources that are critical of NK but don't lay on the thick.

[ContrarianLemming]

Than why post stuff like the article. I am sure there are socialist sources that are critical of NK but don't lay on the thick.

I just wanted anything that showed the statalite image, i dont really cae about it now, I dont think any of us should feel the need to point out the NK is not socialist.

[Chimurenga.]

If that's what you call socialism, then you're no comrade of mine.

Oh damn. I'm really missing out there. :rolleyes:


Kim Jong Il's government does commit atrocities, yeah.

Like what? I haven't seen anything substantial to prove this.


Than why post stuff like the article. I am sure there are socialist sources that are critical of NK but don't lay on the thick.

Using bourgeois sources is ok for anarchists. Didn't you know?

[Adil3tr]

If that's what you call socialism, then you're no comrade of mine.

Exactly. This isn't castro, it isn;t even stalin, it KIM JONG IL. HE IS MESSED UP. Would you defend Pol Pot? I know capitalists lie. But there is a limit. Where are the anarchists on this forum?

[RadioRaheem84]

Why would the camp be bigger than the capital? They use more of their resources punishing disidents than running their cities? Something is not adding up. Any Left sources that talk about this massive camp that is apparently more monstrous than the hundreds of death camps set up by the Nazis according to the article.

[RadioRaheem84]

from the article:
It’s impossible to draw any firm conclusion, but these ditches could be “tiger traps” whose coverings have weathered away. It’s certainly hard to imagine what other reason there could be for digging trench lines like this along the fence line of a forced labor camp.

This part reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Homer is accused of sexually harassing a girl and the local News team uses an infa red camera to see inside the house. Brockmam zooms in on a chicken baking in the oven and he assumes that it's Homer basting in sexual juice power cus he was such an evil molestor.

[Barry Lyndon]

Even if North Korea is everything its cracked up to be by the capitalist press(Personally, I do not see the DPRK as progressive or socialist but I defend it against US imperialism, the same position I have on Iran), it is clear that the US/British media and Western 'human rights' groups are not attacking it because its a dictatorship or because it violates human rights- they have been happy to support/justify/ignore human rights abuses when their committed by right-wing client states like Colombia, Israel, Indonesia, etc. etc. So let's make that clear.

[the last donut of the night]

Why arn't people like this in OI?

Because he's a fellow socialist. OI is a place for right-wingers, racists, and fascists. He doesn't fit the category, so instead of banishing him off, try to engage in debate.

[ContrarianLemming]

Because he's a fellow socialist. OI is a place for right-wingers, racists, and fascists. He doesn't fit the category, so instead of banishing him off, try to engage in debate.

I don't feel the need to debate whether or not NK is democratic, this, I think, is one of those things where I can say "no" i'm not going to justify such an assertion with debate.

[Invincible Summer]

Exactly. This isn't castro, it isn;t even stalin, it KIM JONG IL. HE IS MESSED UP. Would you defend Pol Pot?

Again, you're just parroting the "LOL Kim Jong-Il is just loony! I need no proof!" line that the mainstream media just looooooves.

The difference between Pol Pot and Kim Jong-Il is that there is clear evidence how Pol Pot fucked up. No one knows anything real about the DPRK.

[RadioRaheem84]

Yes, Pol Pot and Kim Jong Il are not comparable.

[Stephen Colbert]

Again, you're just parroting the "LOL Kim Jong-Il is just loony! I need no proof!" line that the mainstream media just looooooves.

The difference between Pol Pot and Kim Jong-Il is that there is clear evidence how Pol Pot fucked up. No one knows anything real about the DPRK.

Its like how the MSM refers to Chavez as a dictator. He was democratically elected... the spin never ends

There are some universally excepted truths/opinions in American culture that are never challenged. Here's a good video on one of the more popular beliefs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7DdWmWUa_8

[Chimurenga.]

I don't feel the need to debate whether or not NK is democratic, this, I think, is one of those things where I can say "no" i'm not going to justify such an assertion with debate.

Until people like yourself provide anything substantial that points to the DPRK not being democratic nor Socialist, that doesn't completely abide with an anti-Left, pro-imperialist agenda, you cannot be taken seriously. I have posted actual sources in previous threads which prove me correct. I stand by those sources absolutely. If you stand by your sources, that reflects on your politics and how bankrupt they are.

You can't justify your assertion because you are completely wrong and you know it.

[RadioRaheem84]

Until people like yourself provide anything substantial that points to the DPRK not being democratic nor Socialist, that doesn't completely abide with an anti-Left, pro-imperialist agenda, you cannot be taken seriously. I have posted actual sources in previous threads which prove me correct. I stand by those sources absolutely. If you stand by your sources, that reflects on your politics and how bankrupt they are.

You can't justify your assertion because you are completely wrong and you know it.
Can you post some of that info again so I won't be digging around. They'll also help you argument.:)

[Chimurenga.]

Can you post some of that info again so I won't be digging around. They'll also help you argument.:)

http://gowans.wordpress.com/category/north-korea/ - Blog with some great articles on the DPRK.
http://www.nlg.org/korea/2003delegation_report.html - National Lawyers Guild report from 2003.
http://www.kcckp.net/en/great/ - Constitution, Organizations and unions, and other documents.

I also posted a report from a Nepali Maoist but for some reason that was condemned when I posted it.

I'm also reading a book called "North Korea: Another Country" by Bruce Cumings which is helping me to learn about the DPRK.

[Adil3tr]

You can't justify your assertion because you are completely wrong and you know it.

Okay, explain carefully how it is democratic, and how it is sociaist in any non stalinist sense?

[Chimurenga.]

Okay, explain carefully how it is democratic, and how it is sociaist in any non stalinist sense?

I've already posted this.


Their economy is centrally planned, their government operates on democratic centralism, their social services are always improving, they have unions and multiple parties, the largest union operates within the Supreme Peoples Assembly which is the highest organ of the state, etc. I'm not saying it's perfect, nothing is. They, like Cuba, had to introduce some reforms in order to preserve the revolutionary state.

That is in a Leninist sense.

[gorillafuck]

Like what? I haven't seen anything substantial to prove this.
Give an example of a source you would accept and I'll try as best as I can to provide one.

[Chimurenga.]

Give an example of a source you would accept and I'll try as best as I can to provide one.

Pro-left, anti-imperialist sources.

[gorillafuck]

Pro-left, anti-imperialist sources.
Would you accept, say, a trotskyist source that is anti-dprk? I do not actually have a source like that on hand but if I did would it be acceptable to you?

[Chimurenga.]

Would you accept, say, a trotskyist source that is anti-dprk? I do not actually have a source like that on hand but if I did would it be acceptable to you?

Haha, well a Trotskyist has already tried to post a bunch of sources that he/she felt suffice but, sure, why not? I'll take a gander at whatever you find.

[Invincible Summer]

Okay, explain carefully how it is democratic, and how it is sociaist in any non stalinist sense?

The thing is, IIRC the DPRK has historically been organized along Marxist-Leninist lines anyway, so its "socialism" wouldn't fit your "non-Stalinist" definition anyhow.

[The Vegan Marxist]

The DPRK is not necessarily socialist, for there's only little signs of worker control within NKorean industries. I would say they're along the lines of State-Capitalist with a powerful people's military.

Though, having said that, & to keep in touch with the reason why this thread was made in the first place, Amnesty International is known for its obvious lies in order to make an image, in which has already been painted for through imperialist propaganda. This can be seen, as others in this thread have pointed out, when they tried blaming the DPRK with the problems on lack of health care services, lack of educational services, & lack of food & goods. Though, this was pointed out by fellow Comrade Gowans (http://gowans.wordpress.com/2010/07/20/amnesty-international-botches-blame-for-north-korea%E2%80%99s-crumbling-healthcare/) where he shows how this is an incredible lie, fixated on the imperialist propaganda by the Western forces that are against the DPRK.

And just as a message to those who oppose the DPRK with your senseless rants & pro-bourgeois media (Adil3tr), none of us are showing 100% support in the DPRK, but rather segments in which are highly important & the fact that we know that if the US were to overthrow the DPRK, we'd have a much larger fucking problem than we do now. So just stfu with your anti-DPRK b.s. It's getting quite tiresome. Amazing how you attack the DPRK when they're consecutively being attacked by the US, though I guess that just shows how the DPRK makes you anarchists tremble. May I quote Mao for this?

“I hold that it is bad as far as we are concerned if a person, a political party, an army or a school is not attacked by the enemy, for in that case it would definitely mean that we have sunk to the level of the enemy. It is good if we are attacked by the enemy, since it proves that we have drawn a clear line of demarcation between the enemy and ourselves. It is still better if the enemy attacks us wildly and paints us as utterly black and without a single virtue; it demonstrates that we have not only drawn a clear line of demarcation between the enemy and ourselves but achieved a great deal in our work.” ~Mao Zedong

[gorillafuck]

Haha, well a Trotskyist has already tried to post a bunch of sources that he/she felt suffice but, sure, why not? I'll take a gander at whatever you find.
I found loads of sources but alas, I couldn't find an outline of any atrocities in Korean camps published by socialist parties (I don't know why a socialist party, whether pro or anti dprk, would bother doing that in the same way they would not publish an article about atrocities in any country that the US obviously wants regime change in).

[The Vegan Marxist]

I found loads of sources but alas, I couldn't find an outline of atrocities in Korean camps published by socialist parties (I don't know why a socialist party, whether pro or anti dprk, would bother doing that in the same way they would not publish an article about atrocities in any country that the US wants regime change in).

Ever read Stephen Gowans' articles? He's a socialist & is very well known through anti-capitalist/socialist media. He's specifically stated that the DPRK's atrocities are very real, yet we must also not just blame the DPRK for such either, & rather also look at the sanctions brought against them. Hell, he's even stated that he's completely aware that they're not Marxist-Leninist through their Juche system. But that doesn't mean one should decrease their support in them against the imperialists. So I'd keep searching better comrade.

[gorillafuck]

Ever read Stephen Gowans' articles? He's a socialist & is very well known through anti-capitalist/socialist media. He's specifically stated that the DPRK's atrocities are very real, yet we must also not just blame the DPRK for such either, & rather also look at the sanctions brought against them. Hell, he's even stated that he's completely aware that they're not Marxist-Leninist through their Juche system. But that doesn't mean one should decrease their support in them against the imperialists. So I'd keep searching better comrade.
Well it is one in the morning over where I am....

[The Vegan Marxist]

Well it is one in the morning over where I am....

Alright, I'll give you that.

[Chimurenga.]

Well it is one in the morning over where I am....

Even if this thread falls by the wayside, feel free to send me whatever you have at any time. If you find something interesting, I'd like to read it.

[ContrarianLemming]

Ever read Stephen Gowans' articles? He's a socialist & is very well known through anti-capitalist/socialist media. He's specifically stated that the DPRK's atrocities are very real, yet we must also not just blame the DPRK for such either, & rather also look at the sanctions brought against them. Hell, he's even stated that he's completely aware that they're not Marxist-Leninist through their Juche system. But that doesn't mean one should decrease their support in them against the imperialists. So I'd keep searching better comrade.

The vegan marxist..the voice of reason?
where am I?
good post :)

[Crvena-Zastava]

I would first like to thank everyone who has posted on this thread, regardless of the fact that it has been extremely derailed. I appreciate your answers and how some of you are anti-Amnesty International, but after spending some more time on their website and reading a few articles it is relatively clear that they are ready to criticize the United States and other western nations too [I will give some more info later on in this post]



I wonder what they have to say about the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan now when all those documents have been leaked.

But instead of joining them, why not join a local (or national) organization and fight for justice that way?

Well actually, they condemn NATO for not being capable of keeping a correct count of how many innocent people have been killed. They have an article a few pages long. Unfortunately I cannot post the link directly because I do not have a high enough number of posts to give out links, but you can still read the article by visiting Amnesty Internationals .au website, it is on the home page.

I am reluctant to join a local organisation because they are all strange. Let me put it this way, they are all liberals who talk more than they act. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of their money went into their own pockets.


Another "Leftist" posting with pro-imperialist sources...Why am I not surprised?

Pro-left, anti-imperialist sources.

On a topic as touchy as North Korea, I think that it is best to find a neutral, unbiased source that explains & examines all sides of a story, and from that forms up a conclusion. From what you say here [Don't go off your nut on me like you do to others, I am just being observant] it seems that you are implying that the only correct source of information would be one that agrees with your view.

Also, try to be more relaxed :thumbup1: No need for all that swearing, it doesn't prove anything.

I would also like to ask everyone to go back on the topic of Amnesty International...I am pretty sure there are at least a dozen threads lurking around in this Forum which addresses the issue of North Korea being "evil" or not.

[ContrarianLemming]

On a topic as touchy as North Korea, I think that it is best to find a neutral, unbiased source that explains & examines all sides of a story

Theres no such thing.

[Crvena-Zastava]

Maybe not for something as serious as DPRK, no...

Even so, I am reluctant to rely on any Pro-West or Pro-Left sources for this subjct. On one side you got people claiming that North Korea is a hellhole, and on the other you got people claiming it is a utopia.

What would I do to spend a month there to see what it is really like...!

[bricolage]

The problem with any sources about North Korea is that as it as a country is so shut off there are only really two ways you can get any info about it;
1. Have access to a large organisation that has the capital, infrastructure, contacts etc to secretly source info, conduct secret interviews, get photos etc etc. Due to what this organisation would need they are nine times out of ten going to be 'bourgeois'.
2. Go through the North Korean state itself, get a tour of the country, see what they will let you see. Now I'm sure many 'socialists' that are eager to see 'socialism is practice' have done this, and I'm sure to many this makes them an acceptable 'left' source' but seeing as they are going through the state itself they will only really get a tourist trail seeing what the government wants them to see, not what it does not.

Ultimately then it's going to be very problematic from whichever way it is approached.

[gorillafuck]

Even if this thread falls by the wayside, feel free to send me whatever you have at any time. If you find something interesting, I'd like to read it.
You could look up this Stephen Gowans fellow if you're curious, I really don't want to be putting forth effort for this because I have better things to spend time researching.

And for my first post on the actual topic, AI is pretty crap.