Jewish Homeland

[Bijan Li Causi X]

I believe a jewish homeland should be built, Jews have been persecuted as far back as one cares to look, it is only natural that alot of jews want to have a state where jews can live, protected, without fear of being scapegoated and persecuted, however, Isreal is an illegitimate state, and the fact Jewish people wan't a Homeland is the reason zionism gains legitimacy.

I would propose that a newly formed socialist country could give up a part of its land to form an autonomous jewish homeland, this would

A) Protect jews from another holloucast when the market crashes again.

B) Help Fight zionisms lie, that any one fighting isreal, is fighting jews and is an anti semite.

I know alot of you will acuse me of anti semitism, as is usual when i say this, but isreal is illegitimate, imperialist, supremacist, and was born out of jewish/zionist terror, alot of Rabais say this, and many many jews, especially revolutionary ones.

[#FF0000]

I know alot of you will acuse me of anti semitism, as is usual when i say this, but isreal is illegitimate, imperialist, supremacist, and was born out of jewish/zionist terror, alot of Rabais say this, and many many jews, especially revolutionary ones.


Nope. Almost none of us here support Israel at all.

I don't know about autonomous nations based on ethnicity, though.

[Nolan]

to form an autonomous jewish homeland


The USSR did just that.

[Sasha]

besides, i'm with hayo meyer who argues that an jewish homeland is contrary to what defines jewishness. the diaspora is what formed jewish culture.

[Robocommie]

The USSR did just that.

Yeah, but it wasn't exactly primo real estate.

[Nolan]

Yeah, but it wasn't exactly primo real estate.

Oh yeah, I forgot they should have given them Moscow.

[FreeFocus]

Protect Jews from another Holocaust? The most significant source of anti-Semitism in the world today is Israel and its imperialist, aggressive war-mongering and wanton murder in the Middle East. Anti-Semitism isn't even the most egregious form of racism in Europe anymore. It's still a problem, to be sure, but it has largely been defanged because most Jews don't experience any material racism - at least, not in the West.

Jews have not been a monolithic people for thousands of years, and belong to many different ethnic groups at this point (Jews of European descent, Arab descent, African descent, etc). It's absolutely ridiculous to posit that a homeland should be "built" for Jews, who aren't even from the area. Isn't this Zionism and Israel all over again? Whose land will be up for grabs this time for a settler state?

[Robocommie]

Oh yeah, I forgot they should have given them Moscow.

My, testy aren't we?

There's quite a middle ground between Moscow, and a little province way the fuck out on the edge of Asia in the Transbaikal region.

[Bijan Li Causi X]

Jewishness is not an ethnicity, it is a religeous group, ones relation to god is not your ethnic identity.

Are muslims all one ethnicity?

Captain Cuba, i did not know the USSR had already done this, thanks for the info.

The reason i advocate a jewish homeland is quite simple, anti semitism, racism and sexism might be integral parts of capitalism, but they have grown to be a force of their own, they are cells, in the inhumane organisation, which cannot be stopped by the central comitee.

Jewish people will not be able to fully accept any system or at least revolution, unless they feel they are free and will not be treated as less equal, and used as scapegoats.

In Cuba for example, religeous folk, were treated with suspision as well as gays and artists, because they were seen as the weak link, and the peoplemostlikely to try and destroy the new system, they were sent to camps, which were not forced labour camps, but were based around manual labour.

This must not be repeated.

[scarletghoul]

The Jewish Autonomous Oblast still exists, within Russia. But only about 5% is Jewish and like most parts of Russia it's not properly autonomous. Stalin should have made a seperate Jewish SSR imo.

A socialist Jewish country would be great. Among other things it would destroy Israel's claim of being the one true Jewish homeland. Also would help the jewish socialist tradition to flourish (all we have now are a few old compromised kibbutzim, jews are otherwise mostly associated with capitalism)

Only problem is how to make such a country without ethnic cleansing >_>

[FreeFocus]

Jewishness is not an ethnicity, it is a religeous group, ones relation to god is not your ethnic identity.

Are muslims all one ethnicity?

Captain Cuba, i did not know the USSR had already done this, thanks for the info.

The reason i advocate a jewish homeland is quite simple, anti semitism, racism and sexism might be integral parts of capitalism, but they have grown to be a force of their own, they are cells, in the inhumane organisation, which cannot be stopped by the central comitee.

Jewish people will not be able to fully accept any system or at least revolution, unless they feel they are free and will not be treated as less equal, and used as scapegoats.

In Cuba for example, religeous folk, were treated with suspision as well as gays and artists, because they were seen as the weak link, and the peoplemostlikely to try and destroy the new system, they were sent to camps, which were not forced labour camps, but were based around manual labour.

This must not be repeated.

OK. If Jews don't constitute an ethnicity, they shouldn't have a "homeland." Why aren't you also arguing for a homeland for Sikhs, or indigenous traditionalists, or Buddhists? Or, even more ridiculous, Christians?

All Muslims aren't the same ethnicity, but it's a different history. Judaism was the Hebrew religion. Hebrews have a language and unique culture that includes/included Judaism. All Muslims don't speak the same language. They don't all come from the same place. They don't all share the same culture, although religion is part of culture.

Yeah, all those things are bad, but that's state power. No "central committee" or government can definitively stop racism or exploitation.

[Nolan]

My, testy aren't we?

There's quite a middle ground between Moscow, and a little province way the fuck out on the edge of Asia in the Transbaikal region.

Most of which is too populated. Plenty of people live in that region, it's not like it's a barren wasteland unfit for human life.

[mikelepore]

It's true that Jews have been oppressed for thousands of years, but the only homeland that they need in order to have perfect safety is the kind described in the Constitution of the United States: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

[Bijan Li Causi X]

because jews are the most persecuted people on earth, especially in muslim dominated nations, where they are openly killed, aswell as in recent history in europe.

I also think Native Americans should be given far more land and autonomy, and not be kicked off reservations when they finally get productive soil.

Alot of people also advocate a black homeland in America, Africans were kidnapped and brought there, many feel justified in having a seperate state within the USA.

Alot of people against these things, are whie europeans, who would not recognise western chauvanism if it jumped up and bit them on the ass.

[scarletghoul]

Most of which is too populated. Plenty of people live in that region, it's not like it's a barren wasteland unfit for human life.
Most of Russia is not 'too populated'.

[Nolan]

Most of Russia is not 'too populated'.

And it's the same.

[FreeFocus]

because jews are the most persecuted people on earth, especially in muslim dominated nations, where they are openly killed, aswell as in recent history in europe.

I also think Native Americans should be given far more land and autonomy, and not be kicked off reservations when they finally get productive soil.

Alot of people also advocate a black homeland in America, Africans were kidnapped and brought there, many feel justified in having a seperate state within the USA.

Alot of people against these things, are whie europeans, who would not recognise western chauvanism if it jumped up and bit them on the ass.

Jews are certainly not the most persecuted people on Earth, especially not today (maybe you'd have an argument back in the 1300s). Arabs are openly killed in Israel - not just by rogue citizens, but by the STATE itself. Israel just bulldozed an entire fucking village (the topic should still be on the first page of this board).

As an American Indian, it's not a matter of just "giving back" land. I mean, how kind of you? :rolleyes: The creation of a state for people of African descent in America may have had an argument before (and I still can respect those that make the argument, but I think they're misguided at this point), but we can do better now.

Creating a whole bunch of new states won't solve the world's problems. Creating a new state will only ease conflict or make room for justice in a select few cases - and it wouldn't even work for Palestine, because Israel won't tolerate a self-sufficient, independent Palestinian state. In addition, a Palestine that only encompasses the West Bank, Gaza, and a sliver of land connecting the two doesn't address the original problem of ethnic cleansing to create the state of Israel. The only thing that can possibly work in the region is a one-state solution. There is no two-state solution (even if there was, Israel still wouldn't be legitimate in any way).

[9]

because jews are the most persecuted people on earth

This is completely and utterly untrue.

EDIT: ninja'd

[Bijan Li Causi X]

Anti semitism is far more acceptable in society than racism.


If i called someone a N*gger, i would be rightfully punched, if i was to call someone a jew in a derogatory way, or a jew a yid, i would probably be smiled at and encouraged.

I have heard black people, white people, women men and even family make anti semitic comments, jewish people also have a distinct culture, and alot go to isreal to be around that culture and be around their fellow jews, there is plenty ofland in every country, and i for one, would like to see a jewish homeland, which will fight zionism, get religeous people into socialism, and help repressed jews regain their herritige and culture.

[Sir Comradical]

This notion that jews are so unique as to deserve a separate state has been pretty well repudiated by Finkelstein who denounces the idea on the basis that it ranks human suffering - only a really sick person could argue that being gassed is worse than being napalmed. In other words, the whole argument about the uniqueness of the holocaust serves the goal of legitimizing the state of Israel. It's not an argument that reasonable people should be engaged in. From a socialist point of view, carving out a canton for one particular ethnic group is absolutely out of the question. Language is probably the only acceptable way of demarcating a large region, religion and ethnicity on the other hand are both artificial constructs.

[Bijan Li Causi X]

Roma people, African Americans, Native Americans and jews all have a case.

By state i meant, part of a socialist country, but given land in that country to live, with a certain ammount of autonomy, not their own flag anthem etc.

Amish people should be allowed to live seperate because they shun electricity and modern technology, so, a socialist state should accomodate religeous needs, so long as they are not repressive, and their children are given the option of how they wish to live.

[Revy]

This thread is sooooo 1948.

Nobody who is Jewish will get behind this. All Zionists want a "homeland" in Palestine.

[FreeFocus]

Roma people, African Americans, Native Americans and jews all have a case.

By state i meant, part of a socialist country, but given land in that country to live, with a certain ammount of autonomy, not their own flag anthem etc.

Amish people should be allowed to live seperate because they shun electricity and modern technology, so, a socialist state should accomodate religeous needs, so long as they are not repressive, and their children are given the option of how they wish to live.

But it's unnecessary and counterproductive in a socialist society to do this. People can freely associate without barriers, and if groups of people wanted to cantonize themselves like that, it'd be up to them. Without cultural oppression, I don't see a reason to do any of that. People usually go to places where there culture predominates in order to culturally isolate themselves due to negative experiences in other environments.

Amish people can live separately, but that's up to them. I happen to like their lifestyle a bit, and they should be able to preserve it. But we shouldn't be going out of our way to accommodate "religious needs." I mean, what is a religious need anyway?

We shouldn't be carving up land saying, "This group can live here, this group can live there," especially when it's not an issue of self-determination for a group afflicted by settler imperialism.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Anti semitism is far more acceptable in society than racism.


If i called someone a N*gger, i would be rightfully punched, if i was to call someone a jew in a derogatory way, or a jew a yid, i would probably be smiled at and encouraged.

I have heard black people, white people, women men and even family make anti semitic comments, jewish people also have a distinct culture, and alot go to isreal to be around that culture and be around their fellow jews, there is plenty ofland in every country, and i for one, would like to see a jewish homeland, which will fight zionism, get religeous people into socialism, and help repressed jews regain their herritige and culture.

You are thinking in an idealistic framework. In practice, people of certain cultures already tend to be concentrated in specific areas. The kind of "homeland" you are talking about creating would simply be artificial because it is based off of an idealized conception of identity. Secondly, there are many distinct populations of Jews, Roma, and Indigenous peoples. In the case of all three populations, different communities may not even identify with each other on the basis of Jewish, Roma, or Indigenous identity. True social revolution will profoundly affect culture, which is constantly changing already.

In idealistic discourses about race, religion, ethnicity that we hear everyday, people are instructed to identify with groups based on those things when in reality, we share more in common as workers of diverse origins than we do with bourgeois people of our own national origin or religion.

I am not against cultural autonomy, but I just don't see how artificial "homeland" states can achieve that when they are built within the context of global capitalist society and as a reaction to racism (as opposed to a solution to racism). Post-revolution, people of all origins will be free to live with whomever they want.

[Sasha]

besides, i'm with hajo meyer who argues that an jewish homeland is contrary to what defines jewishness. the diaspora is what formed jewish culture.

NB hayo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajo_Meyer)'s excelent book: http://www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/02104judaism.htm / http://www.amazon.co.uk/End-Judaism-Ethical-Tradition-Betrayed/dp/0978869125 (
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/End-Judaism-Ethical-Tradition-Betrayed/dp/0978869125)

[727Goon]

Protect Jews from another Holocaust? The most significant source of anti-Semitism in the world today is Israel and its imperialist, aggressive war-mongering and wanton murder in the Middle East. Anti-Semitism isn't even the most egregious form of racism in Europe anymore. It's still a problem, to be sure, but it has largely been defanged because most Jews don't experience any material racism - at least, not in the West.

Jews have not been a monolithic people for thousands of years, and belong to many different ethnic groups at this point (Jews of European descent, Arab descent, African descent, etc). It's absolutely ridiculous to posit that a homeland should be "built" for Jews, who aren't even from the area. Isn't this Zionism and Israel all over again? Whose land will be up for grabs this time for a settler state?

I'm opposed to the idea of a racial state as well, but I'm also against this victim blaming when it comes to racism. I don't think Zionism is the main reason anti-semitism is prominent, anti semitism has been prominent since even before the beginning of popular racism and was much more accepted in and before the 19th century, before the creation of the Isreali imperialist state. Maybe a more realistic statement would be the most significant reason anti semitism in the Palestinian or Arab world is Zionism, but not the world in general. But basically I think trying to blame anti-semitism on Zionism is like
trying to say the most significant reason white racism exists is because stereotypically black people are more likely to commit crime, which is obviously wrong. I'm not trying to stir up too much shit, but I feel like on revleft more subtle racism is accepted towards groups who are stereotypically "bourgeois" or whatever like Cuban Americans or Jews. Associating being Cuban with being a right wing fuck or being Jewish with being a rich Zionist is just as racist as thinking a black person is a criminal. Its all based on stereotypes, not reality.

[FreeFocus]

I'm opposed to the idea of a racial state as well, but I'm also against this victim blaming when it comes to racism. I don't think Zionism is the main reason anti-semitism is prominent, anti semitism has been prominent since even before the beginning of popular racism and was much more accepted in and before the 19th century, before the creation of the Isreali imperialist state. Maybe a more realistic statement would be the most significant reason anti semitism in the Palestinian or Arab world is Zionism, but not the world in general. But basically I think trying to blame anti-semitism on Zionism is like
trying to say the most significant reason white racism exists is because stereotypically black people are more likely to commit crime, which is obviously wrong. I'm not trying to stir up too much shit, but I feel like on revleft more subtle racism is accepted towards groups who are stereotypically "bourgeois" or whatever like Cuban Americans or Jews. Associating being Cuban with being a right wing fuck or being Jewish with being a rich Zionist is just as racist as thinking a black person is a criminal. Its all based on stereotypes, not reality.

Yeah, anti-Semitism only existed in Europe for the most part "before the beginning of popular racism." It wasn't the Arab or Muslim world that embarked on the Holocaust or the Inquisition - it was Christian Europe. And yes, Zionism and Israeli crimes are the main cause of anti-Semitism worldwide - look at the rise of hate crimes against Jews in Europe before and after Operation Cast Lead, for example.

Equating the argument that Zionism/Israeli aggression stirs anti-Semitism with white racism being caused by African-American crime is ridiculous. For one, African-Americans aren't dropping bombs on the suburbs and turning white areas in open-air prisons. Second, the power dynamic is completely different: white racists act and judge from a position of power and influence, while most people committing misguided anti-Semitic crimes are poor and angry about Israel's disgusting acts in the Middle East.

[727Goon]

Obviously Isreali crimes are way worse, but to essentially blame jewish people for anti-semitism because of the actions of Isreal is like trying to blame racism on black people because you got jumped by a black dude. It's victim blaming.

[FreeFocus]

Obviously Isreali crimes are way worse, but to essentially blame jewish people for anti-semitism because of the actions of Isreal is like trying to blame racism on black people because you got jumped by a black dude. It's victim blaming.

Please quote me where I said Jewish people are to blame for anti-Semitism. The average Jewish person throughout history hasn't done anything to warrant the unacceptable hatred thrown his way. The Israeli state has driven anti-Semitism, statistics prove this, as does the situation in the Middle East. You didn't have radical Islamic groups supporting killing Jews wherever they are in the world prior to 1948 and the aftermath - in fact, the Muslim world was much more accepting of Jews while Europe was engaging in Inquisitions and purges. Jews fled Spain to Muslim North Africa during the Inquisition, you know.

I would make arguments today about the Israeli population supporting wars of aggression against Arabs, but that has everything to do with them being a settler population and nothing, inherently, to do with them being Jewish.

So, no, once again, your comparison is ill-conceived. Perhaps you've misunderstood my argument, because nowhere did I say Jews deserved or deserve poor treatment and racism.

[727Goon]

All right fair enough, I misread that as sort of a justification for anti-semitism I guess. I suppose zionism has contributed to anti-semitism, but this is not the average Jewish persons fault.

[FreeFocus]

All right fair enough, I misread that as sort of a justification for anti-semitism I guess. I suppose zionism has contributed to anti-semitism, but this is not the average Jewish persons fault.

I wasn't justifying anti-Semitism - getting mad at Israel and taking it out by vandalizing your local synagogue or punching an old Jewish guy in the face is never defensible. I was just attempting to explain where the anti-Semitism is coming from.

A Palestinian has every right in the world to be pissed at Israel, and the only Jews he knows might be the ones that killed his relatives, which explains the anti-Semitism he might be led to embrace. That doesn't justify his racism. There are many Jews working for justice and peace, exposing Israeli crimes (e.g., B'Tselem).

[M-26-7]

Poor Jews have been oppressed for thousands of years.

Rich Jews, like rich people in every ethnicity, country, etc., have always had the means to pack up and leave when national oppression got too great. Or their fellow members of the ruling class, even if anti-semitic deep down, have been willing to overlook their Jewishness due to shared class interests, and they've been able to escape their share of national oppression without even leaving (the Rothschilds, etc.).

Just thought I would throw this out there, as it seems like an important distinction to make on a website full of socialists.

[Homo Songun]

I don't think oppression works like that, a rich Black lawyer can still get pulled over and beat up by cops, even though he'd likely not spend days in jail because he'd be able to post bail or whatever. Likewise, a millionaire's wife can still face gender oppression even though she has maids picking up after her and cooking for her. Of course, working stiffs typically get the shitty end of stick

[Revy]

have been willing to overlook their Jewishness due to shared class interests, and they've been able to escape their share of national oppression without even leaving (the Rothschilds, etc.).


All the Rothschilds' possessions (including their bank) was confiscated by the Nazis and they had to flee Austria. Sorry but on this point you are incorrect. The Nazis did not make exceptions for rich Jews.

[Optiow]

I used to think the Jews should have a homeland, but all they ever wanted was Israel - and when they took this land, they killed, and still are killing the Palestinian population. I have lost faith in a Jewish homeland now, as they are just too fanatical, and they have too many enemies. There is no where in this world where you could put them without an outcry from someone.

[Revy]

I used to think the Jews should have a homeland, but all they ever wanted was Israel - and when they took this land, they killed, and still are killing the Palestinian population. I have lost faith in a Jewish homeland now, as they are just too fanatical, and they have too many enemies. There is no where in this world where you could put them without an outcry from someone.

Who are you referring to? Zionists? or Jews?

[M-26-7]

I don't think oppression works like that, a rich Black lawyer can still get pulled over and beat up by cops, even though he'd likely not spend days in jail because he'd be able to post bail or whatever. Likewise, a millionaire's wife can still face gender oppression even though she has maids picking up after her and cooking for her. Of course, working stiffs typically get the shitty end of stick

I didn't say they don't face oppression, I said they have the means to leave when it gets bad enough.


All the Rothschilds' possessions (including their bank) was confiscated by the Nazis and they had to flee Austria. Sorry but on this point you are incorrect. The Nazis did not make exceptions for rich Jews.

National Socialism was one brief manifestation of anti-semitism in the thousands of years of European history. I was well aware of the Nazis being an exception when I wrote my post.

[Hiero]

I think we need just need to fight the Nationalism in European countries (anti-semitism remains idle in European nationalism when Jews are not the imagined obstactle to national purity/success/totality etc). We tend to think of these thingsas the probelm of the "other", not of the "us".

But yeah I agree with THC, this is so 1948. Discussing the posibility really disconnects us from reality.

[Adi Shankara]

I'd say the most persecuted group in history is somewhere between the Roma Gypsies and the Kurds. bad shit keeps happening to them over and over and over, and they're always the first to die when fascists come to power (so many Gypsies died in the holocaust, yet no one really seems to care).

I think the world has a real problem with stateless people; whenever you see a group that can be considered "stateless" by the majority (the Kurds, Gypsies, the Ainu, Native Americans, etc.) , they are always the most downtrodden and poor.

[AK]

My, testy aren't we?

There's quite a middle ground between Moscow, and a little province way the fuck out on the edge of Asia in the Transbaikal region.
Here's your new homeland guiz... aren't we a generous bunch?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Map_of_Russia_-_Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast_%282008-03%29.svg/500px-Map_of_Russia_-_Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast_%282008-03%29.svg.png

[Adi Shankara]

Here's your new homeland guiz... aren't we a generous bunch?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Map_of_Russia_-_Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast_%282008-03%29.svg/500px-Map_of_Russia_-_Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast_%282008-03%29.svg.png

on the same token, I don't see why they need to have the historical Levant/Palestine as a homeland. most of them are of eastern European descent, or Persian, so why not put it in Eastern Europe (if they need a homeland at all)?

[Revy]

on the same token, I don't see why they need to have the historical Levant/Palestine as a homeland. most of them are of eastern European descent, or Persian, so why not put it in Eastern Europe (if they need a homeland at all)?

...read the Bible and maybe you'll understand why exactly Zionists chose Palestine. They didn't take out a globe and spin it and randomly put their finger on it. If they wanted a state for the Jewish people, a "homeland", it was only natural they would choose the one emphasized in their religion , as the "Promised Land", of which most of the Old Testament is devoted to giving an account of the history of.

Do you also a propose state for Kurds in North Dakota? I mean...then they can have their state, and not have to take land away from Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran....

No, the argument instead should be, why do Jews need a state at all? Who cares where it is? Why are we focusing on formation of states and not liberation of the working class and all oppressed peoples?

[Adi Shankara]

...read the Bible and maybe you'll understand why exactly Zionists chose Palestine. They didn't take out a globe and spin it and randomly put their finger on it. If they wanted a state for the Jewish people, a "homeland", it was only natural they would choose the one emphasized in their religion , as the "Promised Land", of which most of the Old Testament is devoted to giving an account of history of.

Do you also a propose a state for Kurds in North Dakota? I mean...then they can have their state, and not have to take land away from Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran....

No, the argument instead should be, why do Jews need a state at all? Who cares where it is? Why are we focusing on formation of states and not liberation of the working class and all oppressed peoples?

I know why they chose Palestine. but the thing is, they aren't ethnic Palestinians, are they? most of the original Zionists weren't religious, for example, Theodor Hertzl was an atheist. I heard a theory that they chose Palestine to "whiten" up the region, a la "white man's burden" etc.

[bricolage]

but the thing is, they aren't ethnic Palestinians, are they?

Isn't Palestinian a national not an ethnic category? Is Arab not the ethnic category?
I may have got this all wrong though.

[bricolage]

Jews are certainly not the most persecuted people on Earth, especially not today

Of course


(maybe you'd have an argument back in the 1300s).

Well a lot later than that actually.
Although I'm not to down with 'ranking' various forms of persecution.

[Hoggy_RS]

Why can't jews be part of other countries? Why should they have their own state?

Do you suggest that all religions have a country to themselves?

[Optiow]

Who are you referring to? Zionists? or Jews?
Zionist Jews.

[Adi Shankara]

Isn't Palestinian a national not an ethnic category? Is Arab not the ethnic category?
I may have got this all wrong though.

it's hard to classify; on one hand, they definitely are Arab; on the other, they also descend from the people of the Levant, i.e, the Samaritans and Canaanites, etc. who have inhabited the region since the bronze age.

[Palestine]

Arabic is the language, and some consider it the nationality, Palestinians are the people who lived in Palestine, descending from the Philistines and the Canaanites, and maybe some Israelites who with time converted to Islam or Christianity.
As a race, the inhabitants of the Levant are are considered Caucasian, weird isn't it!!

And as THC said why should a religious group have their own country?? Because its Jewish nationalism, and most of the time ultra nationalism.

[Sasha]

...read the Bible and maybe you'll understand why exactly Zionists chose Palestine. They didn't take out a globe and spin it and randomly put their finger on it. If they wanted a state for the Jewish people, a "homeland", it was only natural they would choose the one emphasized in their religion , as the "Promised Land", of which most of the Old Testament is devoted to giving an account of the history of.

Do you also a propose state for Kurds in North Dakota? I mean...then they can have their state, and not have to take land away from Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran....


well actualy, under the first zionists who where more left/labour-zionist with considerble communist influence (the system of kibutzem for exampele) there where quite a few who wanted to go to other places than palestine.
The US was mentioned a lot (they wanted an simmilair deal as the mormons got in Utah) and so was madagascar, brazille and in the case of dutch jews the midle of surinam.
Only under influences of the religous-zionism and geo-political presure (no one wanted the jews, even after the holocaust) that most chose palestine.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

The whole thing will just fail allready in the beginning, when they will make out the definition of whos jewish. As said todays jews belong to many many etnicities and some doesnt speak hebrew, yiddisch ore follow the religion of judaism, but might have parents that do all this. How jewish are you then? Even the third reich couldnt really make a clear definition of it considered that even if you wasnt jewish at all (by theire fucked up race-theories) and you converted into judaism you would be considered as a jew, even tough they said that race played the main roll.

[~Spectre]

I like the part where it's proposed that a socialist country should turn a chunk of itself into an ethnic state.

[Wanted Man]

Here's your new homeland guiz... aren't we a generous bunch?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Map_of_Russia_-_Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast_%282008-03%29.svg/500px-Map_of_Russia_-_Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast_%282008-03%29.svg.png

What's wrong with that place? It's larger than the current state of Israel and it would probably be easier to get water.

I mean, it may not be suitable for the Jews (who wouldn't be eager to move that far, most of them living in completely different places), but what's wrong with the area in general? Can you tell it's some kind of shithole from its place on the map?

[9]

Its insane that this discussion is even being had, really. It is essentially proposing that it would be a good idea to erect a new settler-colonialist state somewhere, and start a new process of ethnic cleansing so that Jews can have a homeland, to protect themselves against eternal nazism. This is Zionism - congratz.
But yeah, now that we've all seen how huge of a murderous disaster Zionism has been - how it necessitates ethnic cleansing in order to expropriate the original inhabitants of the area selected for the state, and how it thrives on and perpetuates the existence of anti-Semitism rather than protecting against it - I think it would be a fabulous idea to start the process all over again somewhere new.

[Homo Songun]

Here's your new homeland guiz... aren't we a generous bunch
Locationist! :mad:

[Yazman]

I don't understand why anybody thinks that one single ethnicity should have their own sovereign state. Nobody can seem to give me any real reason to justify this besides "well they've been persecuted for a long time" - but so have many other ethnicities.

Not to mention there's an incredible double standard here - how come these same people don't advocate the creation of an ethnic state for the Roma people, Indigenous Australians, or Indigenous Americans?

[NGNM85]

Israel, with the exception of the territories that have been annexed since 1967, has as much right to exist as any other nation state, for as long as there are going to be nation-states. However, it should not be a Jewish state, just as there shouldn't be a white, European state.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

What's wrong with that place? It's larger than the current state of Israel and it would probably be easier to get water.

I mean, it may not be suitable for the Jews (who wouldn't be eager to move that far, most of them living in completely different places), but what's wrong with the area in general? Can you tell it's some kind of shithole from its place on the map?

Jonathan Dimbleby had a small part about the Jewish Autonomous Region on his 'Journey across Russia' programme (it was typical commie bashing, anti-Stalin slush, nothing new there). There was obviously some hardship initially, but nowadays it looks like quite a nice place to live... I've certainly seen worse.

But meh, the world needs less Borders and more Unity... nationalism is a sickness and creating 'homelands' simply exacerbates the situation.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I disagree.

No nation should be built on ethnic, racial or religious lines. Such states require a "cleansing", be it racial, ethnic, etc.

What that does is force people away and alienate them from a now minority. Said minority is then oppressed to some point.

Nationalism, and this pride in meaningless things (race, religion, etc.), is not good, and does nothing but separate and disorganize the working class.

[AK]

What's wrong with that place? It's larger than the current state of Israel and it would probably be easier to get water.

I mean, it may not be suitable for the Jews (who wouldn't be eager to move that far, most of them living in completely different places), but what's wrong with the area in general? Can you tell it's some kind of shithole from its place on the map?
If it's been designated for the Jews, and it's not suitable for them, of course there's something wrong with it. It's much too far away from their families and previous homes (which presumably are near friends and such).