The Confederate flag

[mollymae]

I went to a baseball game the other day and I sat behind a guy who had a real messy-looking tattoo of the Confederate flag right on his neck. Usually when people flaunt the Confederate flag, it seems to me that they're trying to be 'edgy' or 'controversial'. So what's the deal? In my experience, whenever someone says that the flag is racist, the defender the flag claims that it doesn't have to do with racism, it has to do with 'Southern heritage'. What does that even mean?

Do you think that flaunting the Confederate flag is inherently racist, or is there more to it that I don't understand?

[x371322]

It's all bullshit. Oh it's "heritage" alright. A heritage of racism and slavery. Imagine if someone was flaunting a nazi flag, and tried to say it was "just" heritage. We don't accept that answer for the nazi flag, and we shouldn't accept it for the confederate flag either.

[Il Medico]

Its fucking stupid white guys who are too fucking brain dead to comprehend how the 'rebel' flag is a symbol of racism. On an entirely different note, they are also too fucking stupid to undertsand that their "'Merica, fuck yeah" stance makes it pretty fucking ironic that they wave around the confederate flag.

But some (actually, a shit load) are just racist bastards. The Sons of The Confederacy comes to mind. Last year they raised a huge Confederate flag on a plot near the intersection of I-4 and I-75 in Tampa, right before the Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd exit. It is still up.

[Red Commissar]

In order to understand this, one must understand the way the Confederate South has been remembered in the minds of southerners, and even into the mindset of Americans all over the United States. There's a phenomenon in the United States that developed just right after the end of the Civil War, an outgrowth of southern citizens' issues that arose with reconstruction. Historians term this "The Lost Cause".

The Lost Cause mentality essentially assumes a position of the Confederate south as such that slavery is assigned a secondary, tertiary, or even non-existent issue. This mindset seeped into their mentality and created a rosy view of the Confederacy that quite frankly never existed. "States' Rights" is thrown around a lot in this discussion and is usually seen by most southerners, and I'd argue a considerable segment of the American populace now, as the chief cause for the war.

Even former confederate politicians joined in, stating the war had only been one of states' rights, despite the fact that many of them brought slavery and the natural inferiority of slaves front and center in their discussions.

Southern generals like Stonewall Jackson, General Lee, and others are usually elevated to high positions, representing southern nobility and chivalry as opposed to the brutality of northerners.

The north's actions are displayed as one of oppression of a big government over the southern lifestyle. Lincoln is usually described as a dictator, and detractors will often try to make cheap arguments over slavery being a non-issue in the civil war. Sherman's March to the Sea is still remembered as a over the top violence directed towards the south.

KKK is portrayed more as a group of like-minded southerners acting as vigilantes against the lawlessness and exploitation by northerners (i.e. carpetbaggers) in the south, and downplay the actions directed against freed slaves.

This mindset went into Americans all over the United States. Even citizens in the north began to feel remorse over injustices committed against the South. Hence the widespread popularity of popular media like "Gone with the Wind" and "Birth of a Nation" across the nation, which were an embodiment of this mentality. Most popular conceptions of the South involved a nostalgic view of the antebellum south- abundant land, stable class relations, and slavery existing not as a cruel institution but rather a mutual relationship between a paternalistic, yet kind master, and obedient and respectful servants.

This mindset continues to this day. Those who act as apologists for the south leap onto Lost Cause mentality, they will continuously assert the South's fight as one of states' rights and against oppression, and leave slavery out.

In this way the South's struggle is elevated to one of a noble struggle against oppression. In some ways this helped Confederate veterans and southern survivors cope with their defeat, but it obviously continues to this day, and beyond the south.

The mentality behind the Lost Cause is not different from that arising out of similar skewing of history of any war. The thing that made this mentality different is that the values attached to it still continue to hold relevance and are easily adjustable to any given circumstance.

For instance today, the Lost Cause's portrayal of the south as a defender of states' rights, hard work, and strong morals is easily identifiable with the anger of some Americans today. They see the south's struggle against the south equitable with their own issue against "washington politicians", and their proclaimed defense of small government and free-market principles is compatible with Lost Cause thinking. I recalled during the 2008 American elections and even last year people emailing copies of the Confederate constitution which they claimed to be a defense of free-market principles.

In short the Confederacy and the antebellum south has transformed into a conservative (in the American sense) Garden of Eden, a mystical land where small government, free-market, and good morals were before it was destroyed by an evil force (i.e. liberals). So the use of the confederate flag has turned into one of people arguing that it needs to be respected for its history, and to them represents a noble cause that has been vilified by academia.

[Hoggy_RS]

Unfortunately for years at Cork GAA games fans have flown the confederate flag for no other reason than it being the same colours as the team. I don't think many fans fully understand the past of the flag but it must be quite offensive for some to see it at a sports event.

[manic expression]

It's almost always an expression of white supremacy...although I've heard of leftist-minded people using it, too. But regardless, in symbolism it represents the "Old South" (aka slavery), and in practice it's used by people who want to show opposition to the policies of the "North" (aka desegregation, etc.). If someone actually wanted to display their heritage, then they'd fly their state's flag.

But anyway, it doesn't make sense to fly the "stars and bars", because the last flag to fly over the Confederacy was the white flag of surrender.

[RedAnarchist]

There's a car around here with a confederate flag sticker on the back, a confederate flag attached to the window (one of those little flags that you often see during football tournaments) and the word confederate on.

I live in Northern England. We even had a famine here, partly caused by the American Civil War, in the 1860's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancashire_Cotton_Famine

I don't know who owns the car, or why they have all of that crap on it.

[Andropov]

Unfortunately for years at Cork GAA games fans have flown the confederate flag for no other reason than it being the same colours as the team. I don't think many fans fully understand the past of the flag but it must be quite offensive for some to see it at a sports event.
Is it not aswell because of being assosciated with "The Rebels" and Cork being coined "The Rebel county"?

[Uppercut]

There was actually a girl at my school who wore a shirt with the Confederate flag on it, with a caption that read "If you are offended by this, you need a history lesson". I mean, fuck. We're above the Mason-Dixon line here in PA.

[scarletghoul]

I know some metalheads who are into pantera and stuff that like the flag. They are almost always racists.
One guy I knew (used to be my best friend) had a strange obsession with being a redneck.. he got a stupid cowboy hat and a confederate flag belt buckle and all shit like that. He was stupid lol
Also theres that advert with iggy pop who wears a confederate flag ..

Uhh that's just about my experience of the flag in this area. LOL.

[Red Commissar]

There was actually a girl at my school who wore a shirt with the Confederate flag on it, with a caption that read "If you are offended by this, you need a history lesson". I mean, fuck. We're above the Mason-Dixon line here in PA.

Yeah, this mentality is not restricted to southerners exclusively. There's been a LOT of attempts at revisionism of usually accepted historical facts, under the excuse that history of the Civil War has been incorrect, "plagued" by political correctness and elitism.

It has leaked into the mindset of teachers as well. I recall one of my friends talking to me about his history teacher skewing the South's struggle as one against oppression and for states' rights.

This ties into the movement of "American Exceptionalism" by some people claiming to be correcting what they feel is the "vilification" and liberal skewing of "our heritage" (revolving around religion, morals, anglo-saxon roots, free-market, etc...). The portrayal of the Confederacy in the Civil War to them has been tarnished by academia overplaying the role of slavery. To them this yet again represents another example of White America having to hurt itself for "political correctness" as they see it to African Americans.

We had a similar debate arise here in Texas which came out in favor of those preaching "American Exceptionalism", and I really won't be surprised if its treatment of the Civil War will go more in the direction of it being a dispute purely over "states' rights".

And this also occurred over some southern states use of the Confederate battle flag, some of which have it directly in their flag. Similar arguments come up, emotions flare up, and shit explodes. For example, the State of Georgia once had a governor, Roy Barnes, who replaced the states' flag which had an overt confederate reference.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Flag_of_the_State_of_Georgia_%281956-2001%29.svg/150px-Flag_of_the_State_of_Georgia_%281956-2001%29.svg.png

The following elections in 2002 saw his defeat, and part of it can be attributed to voters angry their flag was changed (though admitting, there was an ugly replacement flag). A referendum had this flag chosen.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Flag_of_Georgia_%28U.S._state%29.svg/150px-Flag_of_Georgia_%28U.S._state%29.svg.png

Which also happens to be nearly the same exact flag the Confederacy used in its early years.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/CSA_FLAG_28.11.1861-1.5.1863.svg/120px-CSA_FLAG_28.11.1861-1.5.1863.svg.png

Yeah. This thinking is very pervasive. And like I said earlier, the Confederacy and antebellum south being transformed into a magical land of stable class relations, good morals, free market, and small government, that tried to preserve "American" culture, rings true with many of these Americans who have been infected with this right-wing national-populist mindset.

So of course if you level the claim they are racist, they will explode and say that is something a liberal would say. Though I guarantee almost 100% of the time if a person has this flag (and not in an artistic or humorous intent) and claims its for historical reasons, the person probably has some degree of white supremacy going on.

[A.R.Amistad]

I've heard the "it's not racist" bullshit about the Confederate Flag from many people. The funny thing is, the more you talk to them, the more you find out how ridiculous their definition of "racist" is. To them you have to own a slave to be a racist. Even some neo-Nazis will say "we aren't racist" and then go on to say "we're just racially aware."

In conclusion I've never met a non-racist who has used that flag

[RadioRaheem84]

What's funny is that the Confederate Flag has also become a staple of right wing organizations in Europe. I've seen the flag at soccer games where ultras wave it along with other fascist symbols.

Michael Parenti noted that a reporter for the National Review who visisted the USSR before its collapse, said that Russian intellectuals were fond of Malboro Cigarettes, Ronald Reagan and the South in the Civil War.

[Thirsty Crow]

What's funny is that the Confederate Flag has also become a staple of right wing organizations in Europe. I've seen the flag at soccer games where ultras wave it along with other fascist symbols.


Yeah, that's the case here as well (former Yugoslav Croatia). What is really funny tough is that here exist regional tensions along these lines as well (north-south; altough there was never an outright military conflict between the two).

[Red Commissar]

The thing I'm interested in is how a flag that was never used as the national flag became to be associated with the Confederacy. As far as I know the common one that is used a lot was a battle flag.

The last national flag of the Confederacy had it, but it was a canton much like the field of stars in the United States flag.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Confederate_National_Flag_since_Mar_4_1865.svg/220px-Confederate_National_Flag_since_Mar_4_1865.svg.png

I guess by nature of it being a flag that was flown in battle, it indicates the mentality of those who use it as one of defending their culture, beliefs, etc...

[mollymae]

The reason I ask is because the textbook for the basic US history class I took a few years ago mentioned that there were "reasons for the civil war other than slavery", but of course didn't bother explaining what those "other reasons" were. Thanks for the replies. Oh and I found this on a quick google search...

http://www.cagle.com/news/flag/flaggifs3/20000119edhan-a.gif

[Hoggy_RS]

Is it not aswell because of being assosciated with "The Rebels" and Cork being coined "The Rebel county"?

Thats very likely but nowadays people just recognise it as being associated with Cork GAA. One of my buddys has one hanging in his room ffs, hadn't a clue what it was about other than associated with the GAA.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Just want to menthion that the Young Patriots Organization used used to wear the confederate flag and they had no problem to cooperate with the Black panther party and Young Lords Organization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Patriots_Organization

[mikelepore]

The reason I ask is because the textbook for the basic US history class I took a few years ago mentioned that there were "reasons for the civil war other than slavery", but of course didn't bother explaining what those "other reasons" were.

The "other reason" they usually cite was the dispute about whether laws should be made by the state governments or by the federal government. However, the law makers from the north wanted "federal supremacy" so that they could abolish slavery, and the law makers from the south wanted "states' rights" so that they could preserve slavery. Therefore it was largely the same issue of slavery cloaked in different words.

[Adi Shankara]

Whenever I get into a debate with a redneck who defends the use of the "traitors flag" (as I call it to irk southerners who call themselves proud Americans while flying their disgusting toilet paper), they always bring up the point that "it's a part of my history and heritage". of which I want to say "so why isn't it in a museum"? :rolleyes:

[Adi Shankara]

There's a car around here with a confederate flag sticker on the back, a confederate flag attached to the window (one of those little flags that you often see during football tournaments) and the word confederate on.

I live in Northern England. We even had a famine here, partly caused by the American Civil War, in the 1860's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancashire_Cotton_Famine

I don't know who owns the car, or why they have all of that crap on it.

LOL you fucking serious mate? they fly that shit in England too? I'm hoping it's just ignorance as to what the flag stood for here, rather than any real shared sentiment with southern rednecks

[727Goon]

I think it's split 50-50 between actual hardcore racists and misguided ignorant white boys, but perhaps that's wishful thinking. Regardless, we as leftists have much bigger problems to face when it comes to the white power system than a bumper sticker that a dumb redneck wants to stick on his truck.