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A.R.Amistad
26th July 2010, 19:35
From Mandel's How to Make No Sense of Marx.
Ernest Mandel

And the man who wrote this flaming indictment of capitalism, based on tremendous moral indignation, is accused of regarding pre-communist individuals – including capitalist workers! – as ‘so many sheep for the slaughter’! How can Elster be so blinded by his rejection of the dialectic as not to notice what a deep injustice he commits against Marx by attributing to him absurd short-sighted mechanistic notions of ‘progress’ and ‘realpolitik’ (as industrialization necessarily prepares society for communism, industrialization is unilaterally good, regardless of the price humankind and the workers pay for it)?
In the eyes of Marx what is always decisive is the need to develop self-confidence, the abandonment of servility and resignation, the spirit of rebellion and contestation, the freely developed cohesion and unity of all the oppressed and exploited, precisely because, in the long run, all circumstances in which human beings are oppressed have to be overthrown, and that can only be done by the oppressed themselves. That is the ‘categorical imperative’ which guided Marx’s politics all his life, and which often appears ‘ultra-left’ to Elster.
But the contradiction is Elster’s, not Marx’s! For the alternative is arrogant, paternalistic elitism, in which ‘scientists’ (or ‘scientific politicians’) take it upon themselves to determine in a sovereign way, including against those involved, what is ‘possible’ and what is ‘impossible.’ The parallel with the Jesuits and the Stalinists is obvious, once that imperative and its necessary concomitant imperative – the ‘emancipation of the toilers can only be the work of the toilers themselves’ – is even partially and momentarily abandoned. It is my contention that, to his great honour, Marx never abandoned these two imperatives in his political action throughout his life. Nor should anybody claiming to be socialist.

http://marxists.org/archive/mandel/1989/xx/nosense.htm

This is one of my favorite Marxist essays. I agree with Mandel's response to the charge from the Analytic Marxists that Marx proposed some sort of schema of history in which all societies where simply "sheep for the slaughter" on the way to industrialization. Socialism, or at least lasting socialism or civilized socialism, would have been impossible with the industrialization and socialization of labor characteristic of capitalism. But for example, Mandel discusses Marx's admiration for ancient characters like Spartacus. Again, I hate to speculate on things that happened long ago and cannot be changed, but concerning revolutionary characters like Spartacus, where there rebellions totally useless? Did people have to suffer the ills brought about by Slave society and later Feudalism on the way to industrialization? I'm not agreeing with the charge of the analytic's here, but I think Mandel should have elaborated on this more. Where there (dare I say) more humane methods of living under class society before capitalism that people could have fought for? For example, even if a peasant revolt under feudalism may not lead to a more progressive form of society, aren't they right to rebel for a better life or at least a more humane society then what they lived under? If this makes no sense let me know and I will try to clear it up, but the issue has been bugging me lately as to what pre-capitalist societies could have done to improve their conditions on the road to socialized labor and hopefully socialism in our time.

Adil3tr
27th July 2010, 00:17
The problem was that those societies lived in scarcity, and often their entire cultural existence was on top of the backs of slaves or farmers. Athens was a slave and tribute state, sparta was a fascist slave society, the romans had their imperialism, looting, and slavery. Its possible that these people could change things to some degree, but they wouls have to give up a lot. A nation wouldn't last long without cities.

A.R.Amistad
27th July 2010, 00:26
The problem was that those societies lived in scarcity, and often their entire cultural existence was on top of the backs of slaves or farmers. Athens was a slave and tribute state, sparta was a fascist slave society, the romans had their imperialism, looting, and slavery. Its possible that these people could change things to some degree, but they wouls have to give up a lot. A nation wouldn't last long without cities.

OK, but say in the slave societies that you mentioned. If I were a slave living at that time, I would much rather live in the slave state of the Republican Athens then the military dictatorship version of the slave society. The differences are quantitative, but I guess that pushing for as many reforms as possible within a given epoch, but then pushing for total revolution when the objective conditions of revolution are right is the ethical way to go. A Slave in Sparta might not be able to establish socialism, but they can fight for a more humane and possibly republican form of that slave society, and if the conditions are right they can overthrow the system entirely and establish whatever the logical system after it would be (some say feudalism, but personally I think Rome's fall into feudalism was regressive. I may be totally wrong here, but the US was half slave society before it was totally capitalist, so maybe a bourgeois society could have been established if conditions were right. Again I might be completely wrong.) I think its just an ethical question really: if pre-capitalist societies could not establish a classless society, what would be the most ethical and/or revolutionary alternative?

Adil3tr
27th July 2010, 19:27
A peasent commune would probably be the most ethical solution I suppose. The thing is thta civilization itself is built on surplus value, which is, until socialism, extracted by exploitation. You might want to read Chris Harman's A people's history of the world, it outlines tons of examples of peasant revolts, the problem is that most of them failed.

THE NUMBER ONE REASON, is that peasant labor is not social labor. They cannot live in more communistic societies if they live on individual plots of land, separated from each other in production. But, due to some minor examples of humane farmer societies, I don't totally disagree with you

Adil3tr
27th July 2010, 19:32
As for the us being a half slave state, while the south was a slave state in some respects, it participate in the capitalist market, and the north was bourgeois. The revolution itself was a bourgeoisie one even more than the following one in France. I dont understand "so maybe a bourgeois society could have been established if conditions were right" ???

A.R.Amistad
28th July 2010, 03:00
A peasent commune would probably be the most ethical solution I suppose. The thing is thta civilization itself is built on surplus value, which is, until socialism, extracted by exploitation. You might want to read Chris Harman's A people's history of the world, it outlines tons of examples of peasant revolts, the problem is that most of them failed.

THE NUMBER ONE REASON, is that peasant labor is not social labor. They cannot live in more communistic societies if they live on individual plots of land, separated from each other in production. But, due to some minor examples of humane farmer societies, I don't totally disagree with you

Much thanks for the Harman book. I think its just the work I've been looking for.