Why blame the ruling class?

[Mahatma Gandhi]

Comrades!:)

I often hear communists and anarchists blame the ruling class for every problem: homophobia, racism, sexism, you name it. The question is why. Isn't the ruling class merely fulfilling the wishes and aspirations of the masses? Otherwise, they wouldn't be the ruling class for long. So why blame them?

Mahatma

[Jimmie Higgins]

Comrades!:)

I often hear communists and anarchists blame the ruling class for every problem: homophobia, racism, sexism, you name it. The question is why. Isn't the ruling class merely fulfilling the wishes and aspirations of the masses? Otherwise, they wouldn't be the ruling class for long. So why blame them?

Mahatma
Under feudalism, were the ruling classes just fulfilling the desires of the people in supporting and promoting the ideas of caste and (in Europe) God's design?

Of course not, so it's equally silly to argue that sexism is in the interests of the masses - when 51% are WOMEN! Does the idea that black people are inferior mentally, but superior physically serve the aspirations of the masses or does it justify a system of slavery where people are kept in chains and patronizingly told it is because the rich know better for them? Does homophobia fulfill our desire to be told who we should love - or does it serve to protect a social-arrangement in which workers are divided into nuclear family units?

[Widerstand]

Comrades!:)

I often hear communists and anarchists blame the ruling class for every problem: homophobia, racism, sexism, you name it. The question is why. Isn't the ruling class merely fulfilling the wishes and aspirations of the masses? Otherwise, they wouldn't be the ruling class for long. So why blame them?

Mahatma

Two things:

First: The ruling class does not fulfill the wishes / aspirations of the masses.

Second: Ultimately the system is to blame, as the shape and form (and the existence) of the ruling class are just byproducts of the system.

[Bud Struggle]

I think a lot of the social problems that are with us under Capitalism will also be around with us under Communism. It's rediculous--or worse, utopian to blame everything bad in the world on the rich.

If true social justice it to take place it will be a continual struggle no matter what economic system we are under.

[scarletghoul]

Read Marx.

[Mahatma Gandhi]

Under feudalism, were the ruling classes just fulfilling the desires of the people in supporting and promoting the ideas of caste and (in Europe) God's design?

Of course not, so it's equally silly to argue that sexism is in the interests of the masses - when 51% are WOMEN! Does the idea that black people are inferior mentally, but superior physically serve the aspirations of the masses or does it justify a system of slavery where people are kept in chains and patronizingly told it is because the rich know better for them? Does homophobia fulfill our desire to be told who we should love - or does it serve to protect a social-arrangement in which workers are divided into nuclear family units?

What I mean is: it is not merely the ruling class that's doing all this. People actively participate. People support immigration laws; people support homophobia; people support segregation. And so forth. The ruling class merely fulfills their wishes. You make it sound as if the ruling class is all bad and the masses are all good.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

I think a lot of the social problems that are with us under Capitalism will also be around with us under Communism. It's rediculous--or worse, utopian to blame everything bad in the world on the rich.

If true social justice it to take place it will be a continual struggle no matter what economic system we are under.

That's very true, it would be a continual struggle but it would be one that we can maintain pace on and one that we can really affect change with, you can't say the same for Capitalist society because every potentially positive change made is reversed or corrupted.

[Ele'ill]

Comrades!:)

I often hear communists and anarchists blame the ruling class for every problem: homophobia, racism, sexism, you name it. The question is why. Isn't the ruling class merely fulfilling the wishes and aspirations of the masses? Otherwise, they wouldn't be the ruling class for long. So why blame them?

Mahatma

Propaganda, misinformation, false flag operations, coups, internal deception at a politically 'same party' level, corporations putting governments in the position to act based on various circumstances-

The masses don't have the information needed to make educated decisions so they go along with the idea that 'everything's alright'-

Take the BP inevitability as an example- The masses are receiving direct consequences of the spill and there isn't anything anybody can do about it.

Total removal of control.

Don't talk to me about 'voting power' either-

[Invincible Summer]

What I mean is: it is not merely the ruling class that's doing all this. People actively participate. People support immigration laws; people support homophobia; people support segregation. And so forth. The ruling class merely fulfills their wishes. You make it sound as if the ruling class is all bad and the masses are all good.

It's because capitalism (the only political system most people are taught to believe is the best one) relies on these things to exist. Therefore, it's in business' and governments' best interests to keep these things in place.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

If the working class wasnt divided we all might see things clear (as they are) and be logical and try to take over the ruling class position to gain ourselves to ultimatlie destroy all clases, just a thought :rolleyes:

[Dimentio]

Comrades!:)

I often hear communists and anarchists blame the ruling class for every problem: homophobia, racism, sexism, you name it. The question is why. Isn't the ruling class merely fulfilling the wishes and aspirations of the masses? Otherwise, they wouldn't be the ruling class for long. So why blame them?

Mahatma

Actually... you are partially correct there, and I hate to say that to a troll but its that way it is.

Racism, sexism, homophobia and other prejudices are caused by several factors. Of course, the ruling class could use such ideas to mobilise the masses against foreign or domestic "enemies", but the material is there from the beginning, namely that human beings tend to divide the world into a "we" and a "not we".

We are basically adapted as a species to live in groups of 150-200 hunter-gatherers in Africa and hunt gazelles. More large societies than so tend to form different communities and eventually hierarchies.

[RGacky3]

The question is why. Isn't the ruling class merely fulfilling the wishes and aspirations of the masses? Otherwise, they wouldn't be the ruling class for long. So why blame them?


No they arn't they are filfilling the aspirations of themselves, and they are the rulling class because of capital ownership supported by the state.

Its like saying
"Wern't the Africans aspiratiosn being fulfilled by the Europeans? Otherwise why were the Europeans a colonial power? It must because they were fulfilling the wishes and dreams of the Africans."

We don't blame them we blaim the system that gives them the power.

[Ele'ill]

We don't blame them we blaim the system that gives them the power.

No, actually I do blame most of them.



It has become increasingly personal.

[empiredestoryer]

The ruling class are common crocks who steal from the masses

[Bud Struggle]

It has become increasingly personal.

But that's psycho.

It's just business.

[Ele'ill]

But that's psycho.

It's just business.


Murder was just business to the mafia too.

If your family was killed you'd likely be singing an entirely different tune.

[Bud Struggle]

Murder was just business to the mafia too.

If your family was killed you'd likely be singing an entirely different tune.

It's not how it works--you can't be mad at the Queen of England for what she does for a living--you may not like it, but she has a place in economic history.

You are letting your personal beliefs into the chain of events that lead from Feudalism to Capitalism to Communism--and that bit of personality is always and I mean ALWAYS a disaster.

You dislike Capitalists for the same reason Croats dislike Serbs or Poles dislike Russians. We have to get past that if we are ever to get past this.

[Edit] My Polish family was killed by Stalin and his Communist Soviet Union. My mom had one HELL OF AN ATTITUDE about it. I don't. It's not rational.

[ContrarianLemming]

You dislike Capitalists for the same reason Croats dislike Serbs or Poles dislike Russians.


Capitalists are just like us, except they have made a choice, a choice to rule.
You don't choose your race, you choose to exploit though.

[Ele'ill]

You are letting your personal beliefs into the chain of events that lead from Feudalism to Capitalism to Communism--and that bit of personality is always and I mean ALWAYS a disaster.

Perhaps we're talking about different things.

The people that decided to willingly take advantage of lax environmental laws decided willingly to kill and bring harm to various people(s) living in their foreign area of operations. There is no other way to look at it.

The people that run sweatshops and upon groups bringing it to their attention that- workers have tried to speak out for better working conditions but were taken to a waste heap and shot in the back of the head- still continue to operate in the same unsustainable manner- still relying on paramilitaries to 'bully' (if that word even suffices) maximized profit for that corporation while that country's government spirals further into debt.


Every time one of my friends works 50 hours a week and still cannot afford rent and is evicted because of astronomical renting prices.

Every time a police officer shoots to death an unarmed member of my community who is in the middle of a mental crises- because the city would rather arm a domestic military force than address the issue of mental health-



I'm sorry if it's offensive to you but regardless if I approach this from a local or global standpoint these are all attacks against me.











You dislike Capitalists for the same reason Croats dislike Serbs or Poles dislike Russians. We have to get past that if we are ever to get past this.


The idea that Capitalism operates as this magical entity that humans obey without any control in the matter is absolute shite.

Capitalism and it's exploitation are created by and made possible by people making intentional decisions. They're not clowns accidentally wearing blindfolds. Fuck that.




[Edit] My Polish family was killed by Stalin and his Communist Soviet Union. My mom had one HELL OF AN ATTITUDE about it. I don't. It's not rational.

It is rational to hold individuals accountable.


Should we not hold police officers that kill civilians accountable because the police officers are a product of capitalism?

Please.

[Bud Struggle]

Capitalists are just like us, except they have made a choice, a choice to rule.
You don't choose your race, you choose to exploit though.

Geez. :rolleyes:

[Bud Struggle]

Perhaps we're talking about different things.

The people that decided to willingly take advantage of lax environmental laws decided willingly to kill and bring harm to various people(s) living in their foreign area of operations. There is no other way to look at it.

The people that run sweatshops and upon groups bringing it to their attention that- workers have tried to speak out for better working conditions but were taken to a waste heap and shot in the back of the head- still continue to operate in the same unsustainable manner- still relying on paramilitaries to 'bully' (if that word even suffices) maximized profit for that corporation while that country's government spirals further into debt.

Yea and all that is 2% of Capitalists. Most work hard build businesses and raise families. Few have anything to do with exploiting people.


Every time one of my friends works 50 hours a week and still cannot afford rent and is evicted because of astronomical renting prices. And how much is that fault of Capitalists? If your friend chose to to work hard and go to school to learn a valuable trade--she wouldn't have that problem. Part, though not all, is her problem, too.


Every time a police officer shoots to death an unarmed member of my community who is in the middle of a mental crises- because the city would rather arm a domestic military force than address the issue of mental health- And there are some police officers that truly suck--but most are workinging men and women that do and honest job and try to maintain civility and order in a difficult world. Most do a lot more good than evil in this world.


I'm sorry if it's offensive to you but regardless if I approach this from a local or global standpoint these are all attacks against me. I'm not offended--you just don't see the big picture.


The idea that Capitalism operates as this magical entity that humans obey without any control in the matter is absolute shite.

Capitalism and it's exploitation are created by and made possible by people making intentional decisions. They're not clowns accidentally wearing blindfolds. Fuck that. But most workers in the USA certainly go along with the Capitalist system--are you calling them clowns that wear blindfilds?


Should we not hold police officers that kill civilians accountable because the police officers are a product of capitalism?

Please. They are criminals and should be prosecuted. Ever read Gorky Park?

[Sir Comradical]

Comrades!:)

I often hear communists and anarchists blame the ruling class for every problem: homophobia, racism, sexism, you name it. The question is why. Isn't the ruling class merely fulfilling the wishes and aspirations of the masses? Otherwise, they wouldn't be the ruling class for long. So why blame them?

Mahatma

The ruling class (which in our epoch is the bourgeoisie) has one primary goal - the accumulation of wealth. It's always in their interests to divide workers in different ways to consolidate their power - race, sex and sexual-orientation are a few classic examples.

[Ele'ill]

Yea and all that is 2% of Capitalists. Most work hard build businesses and raise families. Few have anything to do with exploiting people.


It's a lot more than 2%- let's be honest with the situation. I'm not talking about yearly fiscal salary or wealth held. I'm talking about decision makers.


And how much is that fault of Capitalists? If your friend chose to to work hard and go to school to learn a valuable trade--she wouldn't have that problem. Part, though not all, is her problem, too.

'valuable' to who?


Apparently you're not up to date with just how hard it is to do anything regarding money, time and school in this economy. None of those three things are there- at all.

To suggest that someone 'try harder' is a cop out. Why completely avoid the scenario where the person was evicted?

Or in debt?

Or just shitty school all around.






And there are some police officers that truly suck--but most are workinging men and women that do and honest job and try to maintain civility and order in a difficult world. Most do a lot more good than evil in this world.

Wrong- I wouldn't consider the 'doing good' portion of that the issue of traffic tickets and what ever other benign duties they perform- their negative actions always come out in the most important of situations- where it's imperative that they operate according to what their community would want and what their community actually needs.

I don't care if an officer is nice for 15 years and then murders someone and gets off on a illegal search warrant/racial profiling wrap because he was investigated by his union buddy internal affairs cops and the whole thing went to media black-out fuzzyness.

That isn't how things are supposed to work- but people made it work that way. Intentionally.









I'm not offended--you just don't see the big picture.

My Altruism gets really fuzzy when I'm being beaten with a baton.


But most workers in the USA certainly go along with the Capitalist system--are you calling them clowns that wear blindfilds?

No, you missed my point- they aren't clowns with blindfolds- there are a lot of people responsible for horrific decisions.

The 'working class' folk you're talking about are fucking furious at it.




They are criminals and should be prosecuted. Ever read Gorky Park?


This was a response to your mom being angry at Stalin.

I don't know if you 'accidentally' dodged this or not.....

[Invincible Summer]

Yea and all that is 2% of Capitalists. Most work hard build businesses and raise families. Few have anything to do with exploiting people.

See, it's not necessarily intentional. Exploitation is inherent in capitalist-proletariat class relations.



And how much is that fault of Capitalists? If your friend chose to to work hard and go to school to learn a valuable trade--she wouldn't have that problem. Part, though not all, is her problem, too.
Again, you're seeing the forest for the trees. It's not the capitalists but capitalism. The economic system thrives on maintaining unequal soci-economic positions within society.

And that's total bullshit about "working hard." Millions of people work their fucking asses off to barely even afford rent and groceries, let alone higher education, and people like you tell them that they're not working hard enough? Fucking christ on a log.



But most workers in the USA certainly go along with the Capitalist system--are you calling them clowns that wear blindfilds?


If you're taught from a young age that this society is the best, and all the history books and news and everything says so too, it's hard to believe that capitalism blows.

Plus, I'm sure many people realize that capitalism is shit, but they just don't feel there's an alternative.

[Bud Struggle]

It's a lot more than 2%- let's be honest with the situation. I'm not talking about yearly fiscal salary or wealth held. I'm talking about decision makers.

Nobody cares who the decision makers are--the trend setters? Yes. The style markers? Yes. Not not the decision makers. Nobody cares who the CEOS of America's companies are.


Apparently you're not up to date with just how hard it is to do anything regarding money, time and school in this economy. None of those three things are there- at all.

To suggest that someone 'try harder' is a cop out. Why completely avoid the scenario where the person was evicted?

My 18 year old daughter studies cello--now she gets $100 an hour for playing in a quartet at weddings. That's a good gig for sophmore in HS. But she studied.


Wrong- I wouldn't consider the 'doing good' portion of that the issue of traffic tickets and what ever other benign duties they perform- their negative actions always come out in the most important of situations- where it's imperative that they operate according to what their community would want and what their community actually needs.

I don't care if an officer is nice for 15 years and then murders someone and gets off on a illegal search warrant/racial profiling wrap because he was investigated by his union buddy internal affairs cops and the whole thing went to media black-out fuzzyness. Enough already with the cops "murdering someone." Yea they do on rare occasions--and people for no reason murder cops on occasion. I would vernture to assume that more cops are murdered by citizins than the other way around.


That isn't how things are supposed to work- but people made it work that way. Intentionally. Yea. Big plot.


My Altruism gets really fuzzy when I'm being beaten with a baton. OK, you hate cops. There will be cops after the Revolution. Wait and see.


The 'working class' folk you're talking about are fucking furious at it. And they've joined the Tea Party to protest.

Who do you think Sara Pailin's biggest supporters are?

[Bud Struggle]

See, it's not necessarily intentional. Exploitation is inherent in capitalist-proletariat class relations. Yes. Whil I'm not personally a believer in class relations and all of that--I can certainly understand and appreciate your belief system.


Again, you're seeing the forest for the trees. It's not the capitalists but capitalism. The economic system thrives on maintaining unequal soci-economic positions within society. I can go along with that.


And that's total bullshit about "working hard." Millions of people work their fucking asses off to barely even afford rent and groceries, let alone higher education, and people like you tell them that they're not working hard enough? Fucking christ on a log. Yes "hard work" is a bad term. Smart work--will do a lot better.


If you're taught from a young age that this society is the best, and all the history books and news and everything says so too, it's hard to believe that capitalism blows. Agreed.


Plus, I'm sure many people realize that capitalism is shit, but they just don't feel there's an alternative. True again. But I don't think Communism presents itself well as an viable alternative. (All that Stalin stuff and the gulags and the Great Leap Forward and the Stazi. All of that. People just see it as rather nasty.)

[Invincible Summer]

Yes "hard work" is a bad term. Smart work--will do a lot better.

Even with that term "smart work," it assumes that those who aren't abiding by your highly subjective definition of "smart" are not smart. It's still unfair.

The same rules still apply - not everyone has the means to access "smart work," or even the physical/mental capacity to do "smart work." You can't put a colored person with a learning disability in the same camp as a white person who grew up like Leave it to Beaver.


True again. But I don't think Communism presents itself well as an viable alternative. (All that Stalin stuff and the gulags and the Great Leap Forward and the Stazi. All of that. People just see it as rather nasty.)
I don't tend to defend Stalin, but regardless it's the whole capitalism-centrism of the N. American education system. they don't teach kids that the reason why lots of people died was because Russia and China modernized themselves within 1/4 of the time that it took for the West to do the same. People don't understand that if communism was to take hold in the West, we wouldn't need to do any of that.

Basically, I find that - due to poor education and shitty media - not many people do so well at appreciating context.

[synthesis]

Basically, I find that - due to poor education and shitty media - not many people do so well at appreciating context.

Very true. Public education is rarely equipped or motivated enough to teach people the art of critical thinking from an early age. Why should they? Most people hate their shitty jobs, but if they stop and think about the systemic reasons why they're stuck there - or out of a job entirely - that's not going to bode well for big businesses. And if public education isn't grooming people for a life of soul-crushing, undignified work, what use is it to the ruling class?

What was the OP again?

[Ele'ill]

Nobody cares who the decision makers are--the trend setters? Yes. The style markers? Yes. Not not the decision makers. Nobody cares who the CEOS of America's companies are.

There are groups of people making up various branches of the company that are making the decision to maximize their profit at the expense of communities (say- the indigenous in South America). The CEOS let this happen.

Sure they have families and a mortgage but for them to find legal loop holes that actually harm and kill foreigners so they can help their company and help their own families and mortgage is no different than a gang member selling drugs to support his and killing competition with a glock.

No difference.

One is institutionalized the other is on the street. Same shit.





My 18 year old daughter studies cello--now she gets $100 an hour for playing in a quartet at weddings. That's a good gig for sophmore in HS. But she studied.

How much did the Cello cost? How much were lessons?

How did she find the time? I knew plenty of high schoolers myself included that made up a large portion of their family's income- after school- sleepless nights working before going back to school the next day.







Enough already with the cops "murdering someone." Yea they do on rare occasions

I was in Portland, Oregon for what? Three months? and there were five killings?

It's 'rare' in your neighborhood.


--and people for no reason murder cops on occasion. I would vernture to assume that more cops are murdered by citizins than the other way around.

I don't think this is accurate at all. I think a lot of the police killed are dirty and threatening. Did you know that people have the right to defend themselves from the police if they feel their life is being unjustly threatened?



Yea. Big plot.

Yeah, big plot and a big problem. Why do you think places like Detroit have an active Civil Review Board for police related violence?

It's the same with the economy- I think you guys would call it 'market strategy'.

We need a Civil Review Board for our economy so if a company maims, kills or makes a place where people are living unlivable- we can vote them out.

No more localized 'economic development boards'- they're useless and would sell their children to Mcdonalds if they had the opportunity.



OK, you hate cops. There will be cops after the Revolution. Wait and see.

I'm not advocating a lack of civil defense forces- I'm advocating accountability. Don't swing from one extreme to the next- Jesus.



And they've joined the Tea Party to protest.

Not at all- believe it or not there are a lot of working class folks that appreciate us lowly activists holding infoshops, workshops, demonstrations and actions in their community- they agree with us and are not as stupid as you make them out to be.


Who do you think Sara Pailin's biggest supporters are?

Right now? Nobody.

[Blackscare]

Every mod that wants to ban this guy because they fucking don't like them but can't because he's technically within the bounds of OI, and is waiting for the chance to ban him, rep this post as a secret show of hands (not, of course, a thinly-veiled ploy for rep :P)

[#FF0000]

I only skimmed the responses so far but I remember somewhere that Karl Marx said (I'm paraphrasing) that his theory (Marxism) doesn't place blame on any individuals. It does the opposite and says this, this, and this stems from the way things are run at whatever day and age.

The Ruling Classes aren't the bad guys because they do bad things. The ruling classes are bad because they want to preserve a system that makes terrible things like war, poverty, and exploitation a necessary part of its everyday functioning.


The question is why. Isn't the ruling class merely fulfilling the wishes and aspirations of the masses? Otherwise, they wouldn't be the ruling class for long. So why blame them?

This is an incredibly, incredibly naive thing to say because it assumes that people with power are always directly accountable to "the masses", which is simply false. The world doesn't work like that.


Every mod that wants to ban this guy because they fucking don't like them but can't because he's technically within the bounds of OI, and is waiting for the chance to ban him, rep this post as a secret show of hands (not, of course, a thinly-veiled ploy for rep :P)

He's not the only person around who says stupid things and I think he's better than half the stupid anarcho-kiddies who make dumb one line posts and spout 4chan memes in Chit-Chat all day.


I think a lot of the social problems that are with us under Capitalism will also be around with us under Communism. It's rediculous--or worse, utopian to blame everything bad in the world on the rich.

If true social justice it to take place it will be a continual struggle no matter what economic system we are under.


This is absolutely 100% true.

NEW EDIT:
Few have anything to do with exploiting people

By definition, every capitalist is an exploiter!!!!!

[Optiow]

Comrades!:)

I often hear communists and anarchists blame the ruling class for every problem: homophobia, racism, sexism, you name it. The question is why. Isn't the ruling class merely fulfilling the wishes and aspirations of the masses? Otherwise, they wouldn't be the ruling class for long. So why blame them?

Mahatma
They do not fulfill the wishes of the masses, or else we would never have had all the revolutions in history.

And I blame them because if they rule us, then why are these things a problem? Why do they not solve problems in our society?

[The Red Next Door]

I am about to slap you.

[Dimentio]

They do not fulfill the wishes of the masses, or else we would never have had all the revolutions in history.

And I blame them because if they rule us, then why are these things a problem? Why do they not solve problems in our society?

They fulfill some of the wishes of the masses, otherwise we would have had revolutions all the time. There's a difference between for example the way the ruling class operate in the United States and in El Salvador. There's a difference between media control and death squads.

The people do not in general hate the police or the ruling institutions for being what they are. They hate them for what they do, if they do anything which is seen as illegitimate. In the EU for example, the police forces and the armies are the two most popular institutions according to a number of surveys.

[RGacky3]

Capitalists are just like us, except they have made a choice, a choice to rule.
You don't choose your race, you choose to exploit though.

Really? And everyone else just made a choice to be ruled???


And they've joined the Tea Party to protest.

Who do you think Sara Pailin's biggest supporters are?

Americans for prosperiry, Freedom works.


Nobody cares who the decision makers are--the trend setters? Yes. The style markers? Yes. Not not the decision makers. Nobody cares who the CEOS of America's companies are.

For the same reason no one cares who the Supreme coart justices are, they have no say over it, infact they have much much less say over it than they do the supreme coart justices.

I'm a socialist and I don't care, because it does'nt make that much of a difference.

Thats the difference between Capitalism and a dictatorship, you can have a dictator that puts people over his own power and profit, you can't have a capitalist that does that. Dictators have a choice :P, Capitalists make money, and more money.


Yes. Whil I'm not personally a believer in class relations and all of that--I can certainly understand and appreciate your belief system.

Its not a belief system its fact, 1% of the country control more than the bottom 95% do combined, the top corporations can make and break the country, and thats just the US its more extreme when you go international, not believing in class relations takes more than a leap of faith, it takes massiave amounts of ignorance, more than that, even if your ignorant you SEE the way the world works, it takes your head literally to be in the sand.


Yes "hard work" is a bad term. Smart work--will do a lot better.

I agree, its Smart work, as well as a ton of other factors, but the real question we should be asking is not Do capitalists have to work hard or be smart, its why do we have a system that rewards work that does'nt at all benefit society, infact for the most part it hurts society.




As far as social problems, yeah, Capitalism is'nt to blaim for all homophobia or sexism or whatever, theres tons of other factors, but for exploitatoin and economic tyranny, yeah, blame capitalism.


There's a difference between for example the way the ruling class operate in the United States and in El Salvador. There's a difference between media control and death squads.

Its not even fulfilling wishes, its just different ways of suppressing revolutions, be it by alianating people, media control, death squads, or whatever.


In the EU for example, the police forces and the armies are the two most popular institutions according to a number of surveys.

The police like the government, can be influenced by a number of factors, including capitalist pressure and public pressure, there have been many times where the police sided with the workers or revolutions, and many times where they were headed by racists or nationalists, or were corrupted, the same with armies.

[Dimentio]

They do fulfill certain wishes, most often security and predictability. Even dictatorships need to have some kind of agreement from the population in order to rule.

[Comrade Anarchist]

I blame the ruling caste b/c they have the power and stupidity to believe they have the right to run other's lives. The ruling CASTE is the state and the capitalists who use state power to corrupt the free market. Communists, socialists, collectivist anarchists are also included in my hatred b/c they choose to use violence and the state to achieve their own forms of oppressive perfection.

[RGacky3]

The ruling CASTE is the state and the capitalists who use state power to corrupt the free market.

Every Capitalist uses the state, the market is a state institution (theres no such thing as a free market).

[#FF0000]

I blame the ruling caste b/c they have the power and stupidity to believe they have the right to run other's lives. The ruling CASTE is the state and the capitalists who use state power to corrupt the free market. Communists, socialists, collectivist anarchists are also included in my hatred b/c they choose to use violence and the state to achieve their own forms of oppressive perfection.

You anarcho-capitalists are just adorable, really.

[Dean]

I blame the ruling caste b/c they have the power and stupidity to believe they have the right to run other's lives. The ruling CASTE is the state and the capitalists who use state power to corrupt the free market. Communists, socialists, collectivist anarchists are also included in my hatred b/c they choose to use violence and the state to achieve their own forms of oppressive perfection.

Right and private enterprise has absolutely no bearing on the lives of those who don't control it.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Nobody cares who the decision makers are--the trend setters? Yes. The style markers? Yes. Not not the decision makers. Nobody cares who the CEOS of America's companies are.Again we are not talking about individuals - no one is influenced by Steve Jobs or Bill Gates personal style - racism doesn't come from the ruling class because ruling class people themselves harbor bigotry.

But together these people represent a whole hell of a lot of social power. Just think about what would happen if you had a corner gas station, and one of the pumps spilled a leak sending petrol into the street and the city swear system - would the cops help you for 100 days while the spill kept going and allow you to set up a trust fund to pay for damages? Or would the city come in and shut you down and force you into bankruptcy to pay the damages?

Without even getting into Marxist theory about the development of capitalism and the capitalist state, even a surface examination of capitalists and the state shows how tight these things are. Who are lobbyists? Former politicians and former businesspeople and often both in the same individual. In the personal relationships of media figures, there are spouses that are politicians, children as high-up officers in the pentagon and so on. Just the fact that lobbyists are the people most often meeting with politicians and business is often allowed to write legislation that representatives later introduce should make it clear. The fact that companies pay so much in election financing in the US, should also make it clear the kind of power big business swings without breaking a sweat.


My 18 year old daughter studies cello--now she gets $100 an hour for playing in a quartet at weddings. That's a good gig for sophmore in HSWow, so she was born knowing how to play classic music and got a free cello?


But she studied. Ahh, ok. So then you paid someone $100 a week for lessons for a number of years and paid to buy the cello and so on.

Sorry, this is silly advise to solve systemic problems. So the 10% or more that are unemployed - who probably went to schools where music programs were cut - just need to drop a few thousand on a musical instrument and lessons, study for a few years while you pay their room and board (as I assume you do for your high school age daughter) and they can then make - $600 each week they can book a wedding - maybe $1200 a week in June if they can book 2 weddings.

Sorry, but working hard or (if you have the time and resources) learning a specialized trade (and if there is demand for it) might help an individual get an edge in finding some wages - or it might not, (maybe ipods replace wedding DJs and wedding performers and then all that specialized training was just a waste as far as being a skill that can be sold). But specialized training can not erase 10% unemployment, these are systemic problems in capitalism and actually necessary for the system to exist.


And they've [workers have] joined the Tea Party to protest.

Who do you think Sara Pailin's biggest supporters are?According to poll data, a majority of Tea Party supporters make over 100K a year, only 5% claim to have been adversely effected by the recession and are more likely than regular even Republicans to think that George Bush did a good job. They are not mad at the economy, they are mad that other people might get relief or "entitlements" or citizenship.

You know how Lincoln famously said that you can fool all of the people some of the time, or some of the people all the time? The Tea Party people are the small part of the population that are full-time fools.

As low as union membership is, there are still more union members than tea-party supporters; there are more workers who support healthcare than support the tea party; there are more workers who smoke pot than support the tea-party; hell, there are more workers who dress up as Star Trek characters and go to comic book conventions that have gone to tea-party events. Despite claims in the media, the tea-party does not represent "real Americans" and are not the mainstream in the working class and the tea-party members are generally more white, older, and more wealthy than most real americans who are workers.

[Bud Struggle]

Wow, so she was born knowing how to play classic music and got a free cello?

Ahh, ok. So then you paid someone $100 a week for lessons for a number of years and paid to buy the cello and so on.

Sorry, this is silly advise to solve systemic problems. So the 10% or more that are unemployed - who probably went to schools where music programs were cut - just need to drop a few thousand on a musical instrument and lessons, study for a few years while you pay their room and board (as I assume you do for your high school age daughter) and they can then make - $600 each week they can book a wedding - maybe $1200 a week in June if they can book 2 weddings.

Sorry, but working hard or (if you have the time and resources) learning a specialized trade (and if there is demand for it) might help an individual get an edge in finding some wages - or it might not, (maybe ipods replace wedding DJs and wedding performers and then all that specialized training was just a waste as far as being a skill that can be sold). But specialized training can not erase 10% unemployment, these are systemic problems in capitalism and actually necessary for the system to exist.


That's the beauty of it--she learned cello in a public middle school and high school. No private lessons--she didn't need them, the teaching in the school was so good. And yea--I bought her a cello, but you can rent on from the school (not quite as good but perfectly functional) for just a couple of dollars.

If you take advantage of the American educational system it is fantastic. My daughter is in a IB course--populated by few actual locals--a lot (40%ish) of the kids are of direct Chinese or Japanese or Korean background on visas.

Go figure.

Further, I'm not telling anyone to do what MY KID DID. They would have to figure something out on their own. That's the whole point to working smart and be creative. My kid could either go into the market and fight for a sucky job at McDonald's or do something different. She makes $300 to 500 a month for 3 to 5 hours a week. Which isn't too bad for a 16yo. My other kid has a specialty bread baking business. Not for everbody either. But neither wants to work for mimonum wage in some crappy resteraunt--so they thought their way out of that box. The point isn't the cello--the point is not wanting to do some crappy job and finding a way out. It's what being an entrepreneaur is all about.



According to poll data, a majority of Tea Party supporters make over 100K a year, only 5% claim to have been adversely effected by the recession and are more likely than regular even Republicans to think that George Bush did a good job. They are not mad at the economy, they are mad that other people might get relief or "entitlements" or citizenship. The people the got affected by the economic downturn are the blacks and the young. If you already had a job and kept it--the downturn was nothing. Part of that was having a profession or a trade. If you took the opportunity to learn a trade--there was no downturn.


As low as union membership is, there are still more union members than tea-party supporters; there are more workers who support healthcare than support the tea party; there are more workers who smoke pot than support the tea-party; hell, there are more workers who dress up as Star Trek characters and go to comic book conventions that have gone to tea-party events. Despite claims in the media, the tea-party does not represent "real Americans" and are not the mainstream in the working class and the tea-party members are generally more white, older, and more wealthy than most real americans who are workers.

But there are a heck of lot more Tea Partiers than Communists.

[Jimmie Higgins]

That's the beauty of it--she learned cello in a public middle school and high school. No private lessons--she didn't need them, the teaching in the school was so good. And yea--I bought her a cello, but you can rent on from the school (not quite as good but perfectly functional) for just a couple of dollars.

If you take advantage of the American educational system it is fantastic. My daughter is in a IB course--populated by few actual locals--a lot (40%ish) of the kids are of direct Chinese or Japanese or Korean background on visas. I don't know what an IB course is, but great for her on doing something she likes for extra $ while in school.

But on annecdote has little to do with unemployment on a social level.


Further, I'm not telling anyone to do what MY KID DID. They would have to figure something out on their own. That's the whole point to working smart and be creative. My kid could either go into the market and fight for a sucky job at McDonald's or do something different. She makes $300 to 500 a month for 3 to 5 hours a week. Which isn't too bad for a 16yo. My other kid has a specialty bread baking business. Not for everbody either. But neither wants to work for mimonum wage in some crappy resteraunt--so they thought their way out of that box. The point isn't the cello--the point is not wanting to do some crappy job and finding a way out. It's what being an entrepreneaur is all about.And who DOES what to work for minimum wage and all that goes along with it? Are you saying people who don't make money are stupid or lazy? Some may be resigned to what they see as "the fate" but no one wants to be doing these things. But the fact is that in this system SOMEONE will end up having to do this. Countries like Iran that has free college education has lots of people with unique skills and training and yet because there is not enough high-level jobs to support that many people there, people with advanced degrees end up working as cooks or so on. Is it because they just haven't found the right niche, or is it because of the way the economy is structured. It's the same in the US - tech jobs used to pay a lot more in the 90s because it was a rare skill 0- then everyone went out and got the degrees and now people do internships in jobs that used to pay very well a little more than a decade ago.

Unemployment is a permanent (and from the business view, desired) aspect of unplanned capitalism (with some exceptions such as governmnet intervention like in state-capitalism or in the US during WWII). If there was not a reserve workforce of at least a few percent of the population, then workers would have way too much bargaining power and they could demand more for their labor.

Working hard and having skills can help an induvidual, but it is not an answer to the overall problem. It's like trying to tell someone that 10% of people who jump of the high diving board get injured or killed, but if you practice, you might have a 70% chance of being in the lucky 90%. Skills and practice, can't make an inherently unsafe dive 100% safe.


The people the got affected by the economic downturn are the blacks and the young. If you already had a job and kept it--the downturn was nothing. Part of that was having a profession or a trade. If you took the opportunity to learn a trade--there was no downturn. I think the teachers being sent pink-slips in California qualify as a professional trade. But what does this have to do with my argument that the "tea party" people aren't the workers angry by the economy that the media claims? As the polls reflect, the people supporting the tea party make more than most workers and are less angry about the economy than they are of OTHERS getting relief from it.


But there are a heck of lot more Tea Partiers than Communists.True, I wasn't arguing differently. The left does not represent or have a hearing with most workers at this time. But I think on many issues, our politics are much more relevant to working class people than the politics that the tea-party represents. Most people are not worried about Obama's citizenship or "socialism" - history is showing a leftward trajectory right now - it's not inevitable, it's just the trend at the moment, but opposed by a lot of people who came to power under different social circumstances.

IMO the tea party are angry because they are seeing the end of a certain era of capitalism (1978-2008) - an era whose myths they bought hook, line, and sinker. They are raging because they were told that if they believed in the system, traded security away for some 401ks, that the free-market would deliver to them. They were told that if they allowed business to do whatever it wanted, that everyone would benefit, and yet life is generally harder for all but the very elite. They were told that governmnet regulation isn't the solution, but the problem and now they have to turn on the TV each morning and see de-regulation flooding the gulf with oil. When faced with realizing that reality is not matching up to what you thought would happen, some people adapt and change or reconsider their views and some hold even harder to the myths and look for scapegoats to explain what caused the myth to not materialize. The tea-party people, instead of seeing the obvious flaws in the economic system, instead of even blaming the people in power who run businesses that became corrupt, the tea-party people blame immigrants and the poor for their own poverty: "if only these people weren't here causing the governmnet to enact "socialist" policies, then our beloved free-market would work just as I was told it was."

Contrary to that, radical look to the root of these problems. The rich themselves as individuals are not to blame - in many ways they are like Faust - kind of trapped by the powers they think they control. The root is a system that puts short-term profits and the needs of business over the needs of all the people who actually crate the profits. This creates a highly unstable kind of society where in order for a small group to prevent the majority from taking over, all sorts of laws as well as ideological explanations are needed to justify and protect the status quo. So that's why the ruling class is the source of rascism and so on, not the bigotry of random induviduals. If it was just hatred that caused things like racism (as opposed to a social need by those in power to control people) then people wouldn't pass laws against immigrants or blacks and so on, they would restrict housing and hair-gel purchases for EMO kids.

[RGacky3]

If you already had a job and kept it--the downturn was nothing. Part of that was having a profession or a trade. If you took the opportunity to learn a trade--there was no downturn.


But if you tried to be smart and creative and become a capitalist like you suggest chances are your screwed, and owe a lot.


But there are a heck of lot more Tea Partiers than Communists.

No there arn't, first of all worldwide? Socialism is so much more popular than the Tea Party ideology its not even worth talking about, pretty much outside of America only a couple to buisiness leaders believe in that (I doubt they actually believe in it), so really the Tea Party ideology is an extreme minority compared to socialism.

But since if its not in America it does'nt count to you, 1/3rd of the United States thinks socialism would be a better system than capitalism, is the tea party 1/3rd of the United States?

If you label it communists than yeah, your narrowing it down to the Leninists, but if you actually take the ideas of socialism, they FAR outweigh the free market (corporatist) ideology in America, and worldwide? Its incomparable.

[Bud Struggle]

But since if its not in America it does'nt count to you, 1/3rd of the United States thinks socialism would be a better system than capitalism, is the tea party 1/3rd of the United States?


You've mentioned that before--whould you mind backing that up?

[RGacky3]

Watch Buds Fox news/washington conventional wisdom head explode.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/125645/socialism-viewed-positively-americans.aspx

This was the poll I was refering too

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2009/04/09/2009-04-09_many_americans_prefer_socialism_to_capitalism_a _new_poll_finds.html

This was another poll where socialism did'nt do as good.

Keep in mind this is in a country where socialism has almost NO voice and many many people go well out of their way to demonize it and twist the meaning of it.

[Bud Struggle]

Good poll, but also: small business 95%, free enterprise 85%, entrepreneaurs (moi!) 84%, Capitalism 61% and and and BIG BUSINESS 49%. :)

Americans like EVERYTHING. Thank you.

[RGacky3]

except none of those things were demonized for the last 90, infact socialism is probably the most demonized thing in America in the last century, or ever. In the second poll they actually had to choose, socialism OR capitalism.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/april_2009/just_53_say_capitalism_better_than_socialism

This is the same one as the NYdaily, except it shows that under 30 a third prefer socialism.

[Bud Struggle]

except none of those things were demonized for the last 90, infact socialism is probably the most demonized thing in America in the last century, or ever. In the second poll they actually had to choose, socialism OR capitalism.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/april_2009/just_53_say_capitalism_better_than_socialism

This is the same one as the NYdaily, except it shows that under 30 a third prefer socialism.

I like the part where they like ME! :D

[spice756]

except none of those things were demonized for the last 90, infact socialism is probably the most demonized thing in America in the last century, or ever. In the second poll they actually had to choose, socialism OR capitalism.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/april_2009/just_53_say_capitalism_better_than_socialism

This is the same one as the NYdaily, except it shows that under 30 a third prefer socialism.

Is that poll CNN or fox did? Or socialist alliance did? Or big business? How reliable is that poll? I would say 3% of US people support socialism.I talk to alot of people and most of them are anti-socialism.

Has for the tea party thery are mostly conservatives who want small government ,low tax ,less socail programs ,anti Obama ,anti- state run free heathcare ,anti- bail out and anti-new deal.

[Ele'ill]

Since the conversation is off topic now (but not unimportant) I'd like to say that on this forum (a political forum no-less) it's both offensive to make a second reply to someone's rebuttal of your criticisms when it's not directed at you or directly quoting you and it's also offensive to not reply after they issue this rebuttal because it then seems as though you were just attacking them once for fun-of-disgust.

I found this interesting anyways. I might create a full length list of revleft taboos or even do it by user- like what type of things annoy who- we should take this a step further and have an open user wiki where everyone after 2k posts can edit, change, defame- even restricted members. It would make the forums FUN and as chaotic and full of fire as a summit cop car discharging shotgun shells!


Edit*** I meant restricted members with 2k+ posts would be allowed to edit people's 'profiles' or user wiki entries.

[Mahatma Gandhi]

Thanks for all your replies. As usual, most of you have resorted to abuse without even bothering to understand. Abusive one-liners are even being thanked by many members ... wonder whether most people here under 15.

Let me rephrase the question: do you not blame the ruling class for things which everybody is guilty of?

For instance, you can blame the ruling class for sexism, homophobia etc. But there are many, many people who, even without any propaganda, can be sexist, racist, homophobic and all that. You can blame the ruling class for starting wars. Who participates and kills people in those wars?

You blame the ruling class for favoring the rich. Who doesn't? If a rich man gives you a fancy car, I am sure you'll forget all about workers' solidarity.;) Bottom line, you blame the ruling class for things which every human being on the planet is guilty of: greed, corruption, cruelty, hypocrisy etc. etc. This is like a thief pointing a finger at another thief, a more successful one.

Discuss this politely, if you can.

Mahatma

[Dimentio]

Since the conversation is off topic now (but not unimportant) I'd like to say that on this forum (a political forum no-less) it's both offensive to make a second reply to someone's rebuttal of your criticisms when it's not directed at you or directly quoting you and it's also offensive to not reply after they issue this rebuttal because it then seems as though you were just attacking them once for fun-of-disgust.

I found this interesting anyways. I might create a full length list of revleft taboos or even do it by user- like what type of things annoy who- we should take this a step further and have an open user wiki where everyone after 2k posts can edit, change, defame- even restricted members. It would make the forums FUN and as chaotic and full of fire as a summit cop car discharging shotgun shells!


Edit*** I meant restricted members with 2k+ posts would be allowed to edit people's 'profiles' or user wiki entries.

Bad girl. :mad:

[RGacky3]

Is that poll CNN or fox did? Or socialist alliance did? Or big business? How reliable is that poll? I would say 3% of US people support socialism.I talk to alot of people and most of them are anti-socialism.

Why not read the actual link to find out.

Its Rasmussen Reports, probably the most mainstream political polling organization in America, they do the polling for presidential and congressional elections, look it up. (BTW, it says something about how American democracy works that we have only 1 socialist in congress, yet we have tons of corporatists, yet almost no one in the US supports corporatism.)


What you would say does'nt matter, because you have no idea, we go by facts here.



You blame the ruling class for favoring the rich. Who doesn't?

The ruling class IS the rich.


Bottom line, you blame the ruling class for things which every human being on the planet is guilty of: greed, corruption, cruelty, hypocrisy etc. etc. This is like a thief pointing a finger at another thief, a more successful one.

As has been routinely said, its the system we blame, not the people.

[Thirsty Crow]

Comrades!:)

I often hear communists and anarchists blame the ruling class for every problem: homophobia, racism, sexism, you name it. The question is why. Isn't the ruling class merely fulfilling the wishes and aspirations of the masses? Otherwise, they wouldn't be the ruling class for long. So why blame them?

Mahatma
First of all, I'd advise you not to address people on this board as "comrades".

Secondly, the ruling class is not merely fulfilling the wishes and aspirations of the masses. If that were the case, what you would see nowadays would be huge numbers of satisfied people - from workers to bosses - who lived in relative abundance and security,with a say in matters that concern their lives directly or indirectly.

[Ele'ill]

Bad girl. :mad:


It won't happen again.

[Bud Struggle]

First of all, I'd advise you not to address people on this board as "comrades".

Yes, Comrade. Always capitalize.

[Ele'ill]

Yeah, what's up with all the elitism lately?

[Franz Fanonipants]

Read Marx.

Then, Gramsci.

[RedHeadedTitan]

What I mean is: it is not merely the ruling class that's doing all this. People actively participate. People support immigration laws; people support homophobia; people support segregation. And so forth. The ruling class merely fulfills their wishes. You make it sound as if the ruling class is all bad and the masses are all good.

Sorry..I don't see the "ruling class" supporting or enforcing the immigration laws that are on the books.

I see the "ruling class" trying to teach young elementary school children about sex. There is no support for segregation at all, in fact most cities have been totally de-segregated. (unless of course you want the "ruling class" to tell us where we have to live.);)

So where do you get these notions? I'm truly interested...:thumbup1:

[Jimmie Higgins]

Sorry..I don't see the "ruling class" supporting or enforcing the immigration laws that are on the books.No, just Obama who courted votes by promising to make pro-immigrant reforms... but so far has only acted on sending 1000s of troops to the border. Or like CNN and FOX who have allowed their full-time talking heads to promote factually incorrect and racist myths about immigrants. Or like the anti-Chineese movement in California at the turn of the century - a "grassroots" movement sponsored by the anti-labor media moguls of the LA Times and SF newspapers.


I see the "ruling class" trying to teach young elementary school children about sex. Actually here I think the ruling class is divided. There are some who do think that there needs to be a rational and scientific approach to reproduction and so on while there is also a section which wants to preserve the centrality of the family because it is a useful way to organize society and make people form their own familial support networks rather than have to provide social services.

The development of the "traditional" family is a direct result of efforts of the 19th century ruling class and didn't exist as we know it today until that point. Before that, there wasn't family life as we know it but community life for most agricultural people. Industrialization and the growth of cities destroyed the old feudal social organization (not a bad thing in the big picture, but it did cause a huge amount of misery and suffering for common people, peasants, slaves, etc).


There is no support for segregation at all, in fact most cities have been totally de-segregated. (unless of course you want the "ruling class" to tell us where we have to live.);)Schools are more racially segregated now than at any time since 1964. The fact that before that there was legal segregation enforced - through laws and sometimes vigilante terrorism (i.e. the KKK) - shows that this is not a "natural" phenomena, but an actively created social condition... one that came from the top of society, at first, to undo the enfranchisement of former slaves as well as intimidate them and eliminate gains won from radical reconstruction.


So where do you get these notions? I'm truly interested...:thumbup1:The question is where do the notions of the family, racism, nativism and so on come from? They have always come from or been supported by people with an interest in maintaining the social status-quo.

None of these ideas are "natural" - if so why have most of them only become prominent in the last couple of hundred years. Before the capitalist era, "common sense" ideas were things like some people are born our natural superiors and chosen by god to be so, that women were lusty and corrupted the purity of men. Obviously these ideas are laughable now, but that's because we are no longer in the feudal era and so new ideas are needed to maintain a new order in society.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Let me rephrase the question: do you not blame the ruling class for things which everybody is guilty of?I do blame individual bigots and call them out when I'm confronted by these kinds of ideas, but you can never really challenge these ideas one person at a time - it's like spitting in the wind.

The point is that these ideas generally come from the ruling class - check out my post on the Powell Memo:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/wanna-know-right-t138378/index.html?t=138378

Ideas that seem to come from the population are often the fruit of seeds planted by ruling class institutions like think tanks or academies (think The Chicago School) and politicians and media empires (like Hearst and Murdoch).

As radicals, we want to try and get to the root of problems, not just spend all our time battling the effects. Ultimately this means replacing a society whose institutions and ideas largely come from the interests of a small ruling group with a much more democratic and cooperative one. When there is no minority ruling class (but the majority is the ruling class) then ideas used to divide people or keep people "in their place" will have no purpose.

[#FF0000]

Sorry..I don't see the "ruling class" supporting or enforcing the immigration laws that are on the books.

Mostly because they're difficult to enforce and illegal immigrants are really a great thing to have for business owners and the IRS.


I see the "ruling class" trying to teach young elementary school children about sex.

Er, abstinence only education.


...in fact most cities have been totally de-segregated.

Wrong.


So where do you get these notions? I'm truly interested...:thumbup1:

From facts, mostly.

[Obs]

If a rich man gives you a fancy car, I am sure you'll forget all about workers' solidarity.;)
No, because I'm not an asshole like you. Fuck you, and fuck your assumptions.

[Bud Struggle]

No, because I'm not an asshole like you. Fuck you, and fuck your assumptions.


Been there done that. They kinda do forget their roots a bit.

Just saying.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Sorry..I don't see the "ruling class" supporting or enforcing the immigration laws that are on the books.

I see the "ruling class" trying to teach young elementary school children about sex. There is no support for segregation at all, in fact most cities have been totally de-segregated. (unless of course you want the "ruling class" to tell us where we have to live.);)

So where do you get these notions? I'm truly interested...:thumbup1:

lol whu

did i accidentally go to freep?

[RedHeadedTitan]

Mostly because they're difficult to enforce and illegal immigrants are really a great thing to have for business owners and the IRS.

OH it's possible...but you're quite right about the 'ruling class' wanting them here. It's good for business and votes. Whoo who! Lets destroy what my ancesters worked so hard to create.

Perhaps if they stopped wasting money in the Middle East and brought your troops home they could place them on our borders..Just a thought.:rolleyes:



Er, abstinence only education.

No...keep up with the news. CA news in particular. There is a war about to start over the New sex Education.

No one but a parent needs to teach their children about sex. BTW..I have three children. How many do you have?


Wrong.

Look at the Roxbury section of Boston, it's become very multiracial..mos cities are following suit. It's called gentrification.;)
New Bedford, Fall River, Brockton, Avon, Stoughton, Quincy, Weymouth need I continue? BTW these are all cities in MA



From facts, mostly.

Got any links? Don't speak of facts unless you want to back it up. Kay?

Look, I know you guys are all leftists and support communism. But I need to ask you this question.

Have you ever lived in a communist country? Are you ready to lose all freedoms..like this website? You guys are way too used to speaking your mind. I think that you know not what you ask for.

I have a friend from Siberia....she tells horrible stories of her childhood. If you all think it's bad here...try a communist country. ;)

[RedHeadedTitan]

lol whu

did i accidentally go to freep?


:laugh: Try English

[RedHeadedTitan]

Mostly because they're difficult to enforce and illegal immigrants are really a great thing to have for business owners and the IRS.



Er, abstinence only education.



Wrong.



From facts, mostly.

have nots=gonna gets?

I just noticed that.....

Gee most of us work our asses off for what we have.:D Live in a communist society for a while....you will find that you have a lot less. ;)

[#FF0000]

Gee most of us work our asses off for what we have.

Sort of insulting considering my life but okay. If you want to ever say something with some substance though, feel free!

[#FF0000]

Got any links? Don't speak of facts unless you want to back it up. Kay?

My post was basically the same as Jimmie Higgins' without the content. I think it's telling that you responded to mine and not his.


Have you ever lived in a communist country? Are you ready to lose all freedoms..like this website? You guys are way too used to speaking your mind. I think that you know not what you ask for.

Yeah because every communist thinks we should do away with civil liberties and freedom of speech and that the future would be great if we lived in some drab gray dystopia.


I have a friend from Siberia....she tells horrible stories of her childhood. If you all think it's bad here...try a communist country. ;)

Yeah because every communist thinks the USSR is the paragon of what we're striving for.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Have you ever lived in a communist country?Have you ever talked with an anarchist or communist? If so, then you'd know that the straw-man you are building is so old that it suffers from polio.


I have a friend from Siberia....she tells horrible stories of her childhood. If you all think it's bad here...try a communist country. ;)That's terrible, but as anyone can tell you there has never been a communist society. And even the number of radicals who support the USSR or any other so-called socialist countries are only a fraction of all radicals.

Besides, I know many people who can tell you horror stories from right in the heart of the good old USA. What about the Chicago cop who tortured people into wrongful confessions for decades and had a boat called "the vigilante"? What about US torturing people abroad? What about my friend's uncle who was a shop-steward and got killed at his plant because they didn't do the proper inspections? What about all the people in US prisons - the largest prison population in the world, many of whom are in jail because they are poor and were just trying to make money? What about slavery, what about the murder of native Americans? What about my uninsured girlfriend who is in debt many times more than what she makes in a year because of her epilepsy and a couple of rides to the emergency room? What about all the people who lost their jobs and homes because of the reckless drive for quick profits that is the very nature of capitalism? If you live in a suburban or urban area in the US, what about the dozen homeless people you walked past or drove by on your way to or back from work today?

The USSR IMO was horrible, but not because of "communism" - it was horrible because a small minority group was more interested in building the national economy than in democracy or freedom or people being able to have control over their own lives. That's the same with capitalism and guess what, any crime of the USSR was also done by capitalism and often for the same reason. The destruction of farm-life in the USSR? That was called the enclosures in England and is currently called IMF restructuring plans in Latin America. Work-camps in the USSR? Well they tried but you can't really top slavery and the slave trade. Lack of democracy? Also called slavery, and disenfranchisement of women, and the poor until very recently. Political show trials and political murders in the USSR? Sacco and Vanzetti, the trial of the Haymarket Martyrs, the execution of the Rosenberg.


I think that you know not what you ask for. And I think you know not what you criticize.

So you'll have to step up your game if you want to troll here.

[Glenn Beck]

This discussion is silly. It wasn't anything personal when the Russians shot the Tsar's entire family and dumped their carcasses into a ditch, it was just taking out the trash.

[Franz Fanonipants]

:laugh: Try English

boring trolls don't deserve english

[Franz Fanonipants]

know not what you ask for.

masterful phraseology

[Obs]

This discussion is silly. It wasn't anything personal when the Russians shot the Tsar's entire family and dumped their carcasses into a ditch, it was just taking out the trash.
Well, this is going in my sig, and I don't care if you meant it or not.

[spice756]

Why not read the actual link to find out.

Its Rasmussen Reports, probably the most mainstream political polling organization in America, they do the polling for presidential and congressional elections, look it up. (BTW, it says something about how American democracy works that we have only 1 socialist in congress, yet we have tons of corporatists, yet almost no one in the US supports corporatism.)


What you would say does'nt matter, because you have no idea, we go by facts here.



The ruling class IS the rich.



As has been routinely said, its the system we blame, not the people.


Well that is what I was looking for !!! If it is true 37% are socialist I'm very very very very shocked .Has I just do not see such left views out side of revleft.It seems most 98% of the people on the internet or TV,radio and news out side of revleft are conservatives .


I'm sick if this anti-obama stuff on CNN and all this obama is a socialist that wants to turn the US into Cuba ..

[Bud Struggle]

Hey Titan--Communism, at least the kind that these people here on this website is completely different than the kind you are thinking of. I'm no Communist myself I'm a Capitalist and I don't buy most of the stuff these guys are selling--but I have to say it bears little resemblance to what you think Communism is. Stick around and read a bit about what these people are into. It's a rather interesting way to understand the world.

As I said I don't buy into it myself but you have to give these people credit for trying.

[RGacky3]

!!! If it is true 37% are socialist I'm very very very very shocked .Has I just do not see such left views out side of revleft.It seems most 98% of the people on the internet or TV,radio and news out side of revleft are conservatives .


Yeah, the mainstream media is corporate driven which means it will reflect corporate thought, not public though. It should'nt be suprising though.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Well that is what I was looking for !!! If it is true 37% are socialist I'm very very very very shocked .Has I just do not see such left views out side of revleft.It seems most 98% of the people on the internet or TV,radio and news out side of revleft are conservatives .


I'm sick if this anti-obama stuff on CNN and all this obama is a socialist that wants to turn the US into Cuba ..

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/april_2009/just_53_say_capitalism_better_than_socialism

Two polls - one done by Rasmussen in 2009 (above) and then the second was a 2010 Pew poll (I'm not sure about the second, but I think it was Pew) showed that adults under 30 are about equally split in support of socialism and capitalism and the general population is split between support and non-support of capitalism with a large fraction (20%) favoring "socialism".

In the face of all the anti-socialist ideas we are fed, this is a remarkable example of what socialists argue on the subject of ruling class ideas: i.e. that the ruling class is the major influence on ideas in our society, but the objective conditions have a tendency to act against that and allow people to draw anti-ruling class and even revolutionary conclusions.

The other thing to note, is that I doubt that 20% of the adult US population supports worker's power. Socialism, to most people just means government programs to help working and poor people. I doubt that most of that 20% are even thinking democratic-socialism where reforms would eventually lead to a socialist society; I think most probably just favor major reforms to the current capitalist form. Still, coming at the end of such an aggressive era of neo-liberalism where we were all told that there should be no government programs and that "there is no alternative" to free-market capitalism, it shows how flimsy support for capitalism is among most people and how we can potentially build - in the US - a real movement against the system and for a society run by the working class.

[Ele'ill]

Gee most of us work our asses off for what we have.:D

Yeah, wouldn't it be great if it was free?



Live in a communist society for a while....you will find that you have a lot less. ;)

A lot less to work our asses off for- because the right to housing, health care, food, water, the means of production and direct control of our work place and community oriented lives are ours by birth. They've only been temporarily stolen from us.

[Bud Struggle]

Yeah, wouldn't it be great if it was free? But people don't appreciate things if they are free. There's a real joy in earning things that you want. Setting a goal and going after it. That thing might not be missing in the Communist worldview--but it is difficult to spot.


A lot less to work our asses off for- because the right to housing, health care, food, water, the means of production and direct control of our work place and community oriented lives are ours by birth. They've only been temporarily stolen from us. But you can have all those things in Capitalism--you just have to go out and earn them. And granted here in the USA it is A LOT easier to earn those things than in some Third World country--but that is why America has such a good system.

[Widerstand]

But people don't appreciate things if they are free. There's a real joy in earning things that you want. Setting a goal and going after it.

The joy experienced from earning things, especially property, is very short-lived. In fact, what it really does, is make you want more and more. It's a phenomenon called Hedonic treadmill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill).

[Thirsty Crow]

But people don't appreciate things if they are free.

I'd like some evidence on this one.

[Adil3tr]

What I mean is: it is not merely the ruling class that's doing all this. People actively participate. People support immigration laws; people support homophobia; people support segregation. And so forth. The ruling class merely fulfills their wishes. You make it sound as if the ruling class is all bad and the masses are all good.
The masses aren't perfect but how is it there fault the economy collapsed, or the two wars we're in, or sweatshops. They don;t make the descisions, they're just too passive to fight them sometimes

[Barry Lyndon]

The masses aren't perfect but how is it there fault the economy collapsed, or the two wars we're in, or sweatshops. They don;t make the descisions, they're just too passive to fight them sometimes

This.

Arguments like the ones Gandhi makes are like saying that slavery was OK because the vast majority of slaves didn't rebel, some even collaborated with their masters and anyways the rebellions were almost always unsuccessful. And because of this the slaves themselves were to blame for their condition.

[Mahatma Gandhi]

This.

Arguments like the ones Gandhi makes are like saying that slavery was OK because the vast majority of slaves didn't rebel, some even collaborated with their masters and anyways the rebellions were almost always unsuccessful. And because of this the slaves themselves were to blame for their condition.

It is true that slaves are often faithful to their masters. You can see that happening even today: workers love capitalism and hate fellow workers.

[Obs]

It is true that slaves are often faithful to their masters. You can see that happening even today: workers love capitalism and hate fellow workers.
Sweet God, you're stupid. Fuck, man, it's almost like you haven't even bothered to read a single piece of leftist literature ever. Every post you make sucks. I can't even decipher what point you're trying to make, only that it's dumb as hell.

Divide and Conquer. Look it up. I don't even care how, just fucking google it. Make some fucking effort before you post stupid shit like this, you disgrace.

[RGacky3]

It is true that slaves are often faithful to their masters. You can see that happening even today: workers love capitalism and hate fellow workers.

I'm not gonna respond because you ignore all the responces, but your an idiot, a major idiot, and theres no helping you because you just ignore any explenations.


But people don't appreciate things if they are free. There's a real joy in earning things that you want. Setting a goal and going after it. That thing might not be missing in the Communist worldview--but it is difficult to spot.


Nothings free in any system, not in the sense your talking about.

In a Capitalist system workers work and Capitalists earn, capitalist earning is the same thing as Kings conquering, the kings send out their soldiers to go and fight and die other armies, and then the kings get the land and credit for conquering, even though they did'nt actually do it, same thing with Capitalists.


But you can have all those things in Capitalism--you just have to go out and earn them. And granted here in the USA it is A LOT easier to earn those things than in some Third World country--but that is why America has such a good system.

THe system the first world has is the same as the American one, infact the American system IS the third world one, its all one system, Americas wealth is'nt dispite the third world, its because of it.

Also most people don't get that opportunity, if your rich you have a exponentially higher chance of making it big, if your poor, its just about wining the lottery. It has nothing to do with earning.

In the middle ages a prince could kill a king and take over the crown, and the peasentry could make his kingdom wealthy, did he earn anything? Probably in his mind. Thats the difference between Capitalist and workers.