Here to Learn.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Hello everyone.I was lead to this site last night because I,while on a gay teen support site,got into a argument with a socialist.We debated for a while;he insiting everything is capitalism's fault and I arguing that he isn't seeing the complete picture.Finally after more exchanges he said he was getting tired of answering tired,old questions and so he directed me here saying "They can answer your questions better then I can".So here I am.....I've written below the topics we disscussed.

Imperialism:He said that we "brought 9/11 on ourselves because we armed Saddam and Bin Laden in the 80's".I countered by saying us arming them to fight the Soviet Union didn't in any way encourage them to murder innocent americans.Giving them weapons doesn't also give them extremist beliefs.Unless I'm missing something I'm pretty sure he was wrong.He also argued that our intervention in Iraq(and various other countries) was no different then the Soviet Union's invasion of Afganistan.....once again unless I'm missing something.I'm also a bit unclear as to why socialists want to abolish the military when we have nations like China and Russia arming themselves to the teeth (terrorists too remember).

Socialism:He was very direct about his love for socialism.Hardcore.Now this what I don't understand:How can America have socialism and still maintain it's world status but more importantly maintain our lifestyle.How can we redistribute wealth and still expect to generate wealth?Wouldn't the finacial system breakdown?How can everyone do what their good at (but not love) and still maintain a stable country?He said it only works as a worldwide endeavor but isn't that delusion?To believe that the entire world needs to come together to try socialism before it works? And my final question:He says that communism has never been properly implanted.If that's the case why would it work in America if it failed the world over?

Thanks for reading.Please leave whatever advice/words of wisdom you think will answer my questions.

[danyboy27]

Hello everyone.I was lead to this site last night because I,while on a gay teen support site,got into a argument with a socialist.We debated for a while;he insiting everything is capitalism's fault and I arguing that he isn't seeing the complete picture.Finally after more exchanges he said he was getting tired of answering tired,old questions and so he directed me here saying "They can answer your questions better then I can".So here I am.....I've written below the topics we disscussed.

well, capitalism is the way our ressources are managed, so it kinda make sense that most of the problem we encounter today are dirrectly linked to it.

i dont blame capitalism like i would blame an individual, the system just dosnt work at all, no hard feeling, it just dosnt work, its unproductive, wasteful, and debilitating for the human who work under it.

Many economist and free market fan would blame obama or reegan for fucking up the economy, but the reality it, that how the system is made, economical crisis are bound to happen beccause the accumulation of capital render the system itself unstable, so is the contradiction within capitalism, to keep the system going you have to stack wealth, but the verry action of doing it create instability itself.

[Invincible Summer]

Imperialism:He said that we "brought 9/11 on ourselves because we armed Saddam and Bin Laden in the 80's".I countered by saying us arming them to fight the Soviet Union didn't in any way encourage them to murder innocent americans.Giving them weapons doesn't also give them extremist beliefs.Unless I'm missing something I'm pretty sure he was wrong.He also argued that our intervention in Iraq(and various other countries) was no different then the Soviet Union's invasion of Afganistan.....once again unless I'm missing something.I'm also a bit unclear as to why socialists want to abolish the military when we have nations like China and Russia arming themselves to the teeth (terrorists too remember).

I'm not too read up on Cold War activity in the Middle East, but it's true that the USA (as well as some other countries) did finance the Mujahideen which (IIRC), after a series of events/splinters, formed Al-Qaeda.

Yes, the Americans didn't "give them extremist beliefs," but Muslim nationalism isn't exactly new, so if American intelligence actually paid attention to shit other than the Soviet Union encroaching on American interests, they would've been aware of the formation of Muslim nationalist groups.
It's also likethis: You give some homeless guy you hardly know a gun so you can kill your rival without getting blood on your own hands. You promise him some money for the deed. Then the guy turns the gun on you... it's your own fault for not knowing if the guy was really going to help you in the end and giving him the gun.

I think socialists who wish to "abolish the military" do so on the grounds of abolishing imperialist military powers. In the ideal situation of communism being the primary political system in most of the world, military power wouldn't be needed as there is no real enemy to defend against.

I personally think that some sort of People's Army is necessary, with rotating officer positions and whatnot, just in case reactionary elements do arise, but I'm not sure who else is with me on that.

The modern PRC and Russia are not socialist, and have not been for several decades.




Socialism:He was very direct about his love for socialism.Hardcore.Now this what I don't understand:How can America have socialism and still maintain it's world status but more importantly maintain our lifestyle.How can we redistribute wealth and still expect to generate wealth?
Are you aware of how much the http://www.forbes.com/2008/01/26/billionaires-buffett-mittal-biz-cx_lh_0128richceos_slide_2.html top CEOs make annually, and how much that could be put back into the people to allow them to live much better lives?

Why is it necessary to "generate wealth?" What is "our lifestyle?" I'm sure a female Haitian immigrant doesn't feel that their "lifestyle" is compatible with the one that a white male business owner does.

There is no "American lifestyle." This phrase generalizes the utopian middle/upper-class, white, "American Dream" bullshit and applies it to anyone living in the US.


Wouldn't the finacial system breakdown?

Oh no! Not Wall Street!

You do realize that socialists/communists do not wish to see the free market existing after the collapse of capitalism? It is based on artificial scarcity, exploitation, and greed in order to make money for a relatively small percentage of the population.

The current financial system will be broken, yes. But socialists/communists will try to restructure society in order to eventually install a post-scarcity gift economy.


How can everyone do what their good at (but not love) and still maintain a stable country?
Why wouldn't you like doing something that you're good at? :confused:

Define "stable country."


He said it only works as a worldwide endeavor but isn't that delusion?To believe that the entire world needs to come together to try socialism before it works?
The opinion on this varies from communist to communist. I think that socialists generally accept that socialism can only be implemented country-by-country, as opposed to all countries becoming socialist at once.

How is it delusion? You can't always test things before they work... how the hell are you supposed to get anything done? There always needs to be trailblazers. Hell, democracy was considered a radical idea at one point, but someone had to just give it a shot.


And my final question:He says that communism has never been properly implanted.If that's the case why would it work in America if it failed the world over?
You have to realize that lots of history depends on the social, cultural, and economic contexts of the time. These are referred to as "material conditions."

If communism was to be implemented in the US, its vast financial resources and technological infrastructure would allow the construction of a socialist society much easier. China and Russia had to basically start from peasantry and modernize in order to build the industrial capability required for the demands of socialism.

Plus, you had the West breathing down their neck and attacking them from various fronts, which doesn't help.

[Shokaract]

Welcome, Wanderer. Others can explain this better than I, but here goes.

I think the more recent rise of extremism, including Islamic fundamentalism, occurred in response to the history of and increase in American interventionism in the region and also to fill the power vacuum left by the fall of the only challenge to U.S. hegemony, the USSR. It should be noted that the only criterion we used to approve arming these groups in Afghanistan was opposition to the Soviet Union. Giving them weapons isn't the cause of extremism. Playing with sovereign nations does (support for Israeli's killing of innocent Palestinians; economic sanctions on Iraq leading to increased poverty, malnutrition, and death; permanent U.S. military presence around holy sites in Saudi Arabia). The weapons just allow them to act on that extremism more effectively.

Concerning Iraq, the CIA trained Saddam Hussein many decades ago. And he rose to power thanks to the United States. We armed him and had his party hunt down suspected communists. We also helped him maintain power. I think that socialist you talked to might've been a bit confused, because Hussein himself had nothing to do with 9/11. But the resistance U.S. troops met in its aftermath is directly tied to the armaments we provided.

Now American capitalism-imperialism, and its need to secure markets and resources, feeds and feeds off of Islamic fundamentalism.

[punisa]

Dear Wanderer, welcome to the red world - easy to get hooked, impossible to leave :laugh:
Only kidding, it's great that you came here and ask questions. I believe soon others will join in and try their best to answer this.

Hm.. I'm a little bit confused. Your socialist friend said that USSR and US invasion of Iraq was one of the same?
Well... actually it is very different.
As you know, both countries "invaded" other countries over the years, but with a clearly different goal so to speak.

A classic US invasion is performed only to harvest that country's resources, while USSR never did that. They have however "exported" revolution.

911? Hm, I don't know. I think there are many things still unclear over that event.
One thing that is certain however is the fact that US is in the middle east for the oil, so it ain't that hard to figure.

The whole idea on socialism is grand and it would take many hours for me to go through it all, but I believe you will be able to find many good resources right here at RevLeft.

Capitalist mode of production, the one in which you and me live in will not be around for long. This is not some sort of wacky commie Armageddon gospel, but a general fact.
What drives capitalism? Expanding markets (new investment, new growth etc etc)
Unfortunately for capitalism, there is only that much room left to expand.. and this room is shrinking fast (thus the current crisis).
If the system fails, what will be there to replace it?

Lifestyle? Hmm... depends, what kinds of lifestyle are we talking about? House, food, clothes, job, transport, free time?
Or are we talking about some Hollywood make-believe that 0,00001% of US population enjoys? Yachts, Rolls Royce cars etc etc.

[StoneFrog]

Socialism:He was very direct about his love for socialism.Hardcore.Now this what I don't understand:How can America have socialism and still maintain it's world status but more importantly maintain our lifestyle.How can we redistribute wealth and still expect to generate wealth?Wouldn't the finacial system breakdown?How can everyone do what their good at (but not love) and still maintain a stable country?He said it only works as a worldwide endeavor but isn't that delusion?To believe that the entire world needs to come together to try socialism before it works? And my final question:He says that communism has never been properly implanted.If that's the case why would it work in America if it failed the world over?

Socialism in essence wants to remove the market system, the markets are the things that cause instability in society. Look at it like this, automation of production has increased and increased, we have reached a high level of industrial production; you would think people would have to work less now. But people are working more than they ever have, having less time for anything but work day after day. Why is this? we all have to keep saving the markets so we produce useless jobs which in reality give nothing back to society except that the jobs support the markets. We produce low quality goods because we have to get people to buy, why? to keep the markets a float.
Computers cars everything in your household i would think has been GIVEN a limited life span, computers suppose to be replaced every 2 years, cars have a limited mile usage before you need to get a new one (not repair it, but get a whole new one. There is a reason why repairing a car costs so much, they want to to just get a new one).

Communism can only be achieved after the WORLD has denounced capitalism. What you see as communist countries old USSR,China etc.. could never go to the next stage which is dismantling the state because majority of the world is still capitalist countries.

"So long as the state exists there is no freedom. When there is freedom, there will be no state. "

Communist is without a state, and that is why those countries aren't communist countries, its not that they failed, its more that the world failed them. Trust me, i dislike the USSR and china A LOT, not all communist advocate Stalin and all. I say this about what happened in those countries is at least they tried to remove themselves from capitalism, and maybe things would of been a lot different if the workers conciseness was developed in more countries.

On the topic that its a delusion that the whole world has to come together... just as i said above, communism is stateless. We are not to be divided by countries or nations, we work for the dismantle of all class so we fight for all and not one. Only when all are fighting is when we are free.

To really understand about communism, you need to look at the class analysis and you will see how capitalism doesn't do anything for freedom, but hides behind a facade.

Edit: i do have to applaud you for actually looking to find out about socialism, most people just say its a bunch of B.S without knowing anything about it besides what they are fed through media and propaganda. Most still are under the effects of the cold war propaganda, and refuse to think other wise.

[mikelepore]

Imperialism:He said that we "brought 9/11 on ourselves because we armed Saddam and Bin Laden in the 80's".I countered by saying us arming them to fight the Soviet Union didn't in any way encourage them to murder innocent americans.Giving them weapons doesn't also give them extremist beliefs.Unless I'm missing something I'm pretty sure he was wrong.

The explanation is wrong. The people who attacked the U.S. on 9/11 announced why there were doing it, so there's no need to guess. They said that the cause of their anger is that the U.S. has soldiers permanently stationed in Saudi Arabia. They consider that an offense because it is the country where the cities of Mecca and Medina are located, two cities thare are significant in their religion. Therefore the form of U.S. imperialism that led to 9/11 on was the practice of keeping troops stationed in something like sixty other countries, treating the entire globe as U.S. property. "Because we armed Saddam and Bin Laden in the 80's" doesn't express the reason.

[Stephen Colbert]

Imperialism:He said that we "brought 9/11 on ourselves because we armed Saddam and Bin Laden in the 80's".I countered by saying us arming them to fight the Soviet Union didn't in any way encourage them to murder innocent americans.Giving them weapons doesn't also give them extremist beliefs.Unless I'm missing something I'm pretty sure he was wrong.He also argued that our intervention in Iraq(and various other countries) was no different then the Soviet Union's invasion of Afganistan.....once again unless I'm missing something.I'm also a bit unclear as to why socialists want to abolish the military when we have nations like China and Russia arming themselves to the teeth (terrorists too remember).

Socialists prioritize spending on things that aid people rather than those that kill them... radical, no? And actually there have been reports on U.S. sponsored jihadist books in Madrasas that explain why the USSR is the enemy and how Islam needs to be defended.



Socialism:He was very direct about his love for socialism.Hardcore.Now this what I don't understand:How can America have socialism and still maintain it's world status but more importantly maintain our lifestyle.How can we redistribute wealth and still expect to generate wealth?Wouldn't the finacial system breakdown?How can everyone do what their good at (but not love) and still maintain a stable country?He said it only works as a worldwide endeavor but isn't that delusion?To believe that the entire world needs to come together to try socialism before it works? And my final question:He says that communism has never been properly implanted.If that's the case why would it work in America if it failed the world over?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFxYyXGMfZM