A "what if" question concerning vanguards.

[mollymae]

I'm wondering about the corruptibility of vanguards. I'm still learning so maybe you could help me out.

Let's say that we as a society do eventually gain class consciousness and the average person understands the basics of socialism. What's to stop a group of elites or a special interest group to act as a vanguard, only pretending they actually give a shit about equality and democracy, just to attempt to seize power under the guise of a transitional phase to communism?

In other words, how could you know if you could trust a vanguard? Thanks in advance

[Thirsty Crow]

In other words, how could you know if you could trust a vanguard? Thanks in advanceWhen an official (in any political and economic systems) or a group of officials start speaking of "necessary sacrifice, necessary curbing of civil rights etc." (and, in this instance, "necessary tightening of central control over the processes of production), you ought to be aware that something potentialy nasty is going on.

[Invincible Summer]

I'm wondering about the corruptibility of vanguards. I'm still learning so maybe you could help me out.

Let's say that we as a society do eventually gain class consciousness and the average person understands the basics of socialism. What's to stop a group of elites or a special interest group to act as a vanguard, only pretending they actually give a shit about equality and democracy, just to attempt to seize power under the guise of a transitional phase to communism?

In other words, how could you know if you could trust a vanguard? Thanks in advance


Firstly, AFAIK, the "vanguard" is composed of people who are educated in and dedicated to communism, so ideally almost everyone is part of said "vanguard."


Besides, if it's a relatively small group of elites/special interest group(s), and society does have class consciousness, then I think the number of people able to criticize and react to such a vanguard will outnumber the actual "vanguard." If real problems arise, and the populous is already radicalized, I don't see why the people wouldn't just rise up and topple the group they see as corrupt.


And you "trust a vanguard" for the same reason you trust your fellow revolutionary. I don't see what's so complicated/cryptic about this... a vanguard is just a group of people. I mean, granted that people aren't always trustworthy, but if you trust your fellow comrade to not give up the revolution by ratting us Reds out to reactionaries and capitalists, then why wouldn't you trust a larger number of said comrades?

[Lyev]

Vanguardism is not a totally separate being, severed from the proletariat and the broader masses. Vanguardism is neither elitist, there was a thread someone started in theory a while that I remember, although it didn't get a lot of attention, that talked of the "elitist vanguard" as opposed to the truly proletarian vanguard. I'll find it, then give a link or quote it. For me, the vanguard should be totally immersed in, part of and tightly linked with the working class. It shouldn't be a Blanquist clique of intellgentsia that want to carry out a revolution on behalf of the proletariat, in some sort of authoritarian coup de état. Anyway, a vanguard, as Marx (and Engels) say in the Communist Manifesto shares exactly the same interests as the working class, but are simply the most educated and dedicated members.
In what relation do the Communists stand to the proletarians as a whole?

The Communists do not form a separate party opposed to the other working-class parties.

They have no interests separate and apart from those of the proletariat as a whole.

They do not set up any sectarian principles of their own, by which to shape and mould the proletarian movement.

The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only: 1. In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality. 2. In the various stages of development which the struggle of the working class against the bourgeoisie has to pass through, they always and everywhere represent the interests of the movement as a whole.

The Communists, therefore, are on the one hand, practically, the most advanced and resolute section of the working-class parties of every country, that section which pushes forward all others; on the other hand, theoretically, they have over the great mass of the proletariat the advantage of clearly understanding the line of march, the conditions, and the ultimate general results of the proletarian movement.

The immediate aim of the Communists is the same as that of all other proletarian parties: formation of the proletariat into a class, overthrow of the bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power by the proletariat.(Emphasis mine.)

EDIT: here it is - http://www.revleft.com/vb/elitist-vanguard-vs-t124183/index.html. The thread is closed now, so it's easier just to link to it. No one really commented apart from me, and there was THC's OP. I actually quoted the exact same passage :cool: My position then was more one of an anarchist or Left-Communist position, but I think I understand the necessity of a vanguard, simply as a tool for organisation. And as I said we need to distinguish between elitist vanguardism (a clique comprised of intelligentsia giving Blaquist socialism down to the working class) and revolutionary vanguardism.

[Chambered Word]

What's to stop a group of elites or a special interest group to act as a vanguard, only pretending they actually give a shit about equality and democracy, just to attempt to seize power under the guise of a transitional phase to communism?

The collective power and class consciousness of the working class.

If a vanguard is capable of taking unbridled power in a socialist country, one should be led to assume that either it was not really socialist or the working class at some point was not powerful enough to defend its power against counter-revolutionary elements, internally or externally.

A vanguard party is just an organization of the most class conscious section of the working class which argues for revolutionary politics. Contrary to the line repeated by most anarchists, it's not a Blanquist group of elitists who devote their lives to taking state power and murdering dissidents.