I had a conversation with a woman the other night...

[durhamleft]

who I met in a bar, and she seemed alright, and after a while I got onto talking about politics (great way to chat up a woman, I know :blushing:) and anyway, why I'm posting this is she was absolutely adamant that Mussolini was a communist, and even more adamant that communism was a branch of fascism, her friend simply didnt know what these terms meant. My point is people, how are we going to recruit numbers with ignorance like that? I wouldn't be surprised if many people are that ignorant either, and surely this is in one way a failure for the left but at the same time an opportunity for us to educate people about the potential of leftist ideology...

[IllicitPopsicle]

Just... don't...

Sigh

You can try to explain the history of communist theory, but chances are, they'd just glaze over. And besides - if you're doing this just to pick up a chick, I would advise against that. Building a relationship purely on political ideology is never a good thing.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Tip #1: Never talk to a girl in a bar.

Tip #2: Never try teaching politics to a girl in a bar.

That should do for now. :thumbup1:

[durhamleft]

Just... don't...

Sigh

You can try to explain the history of communist theory, but chances are, they'd just glaze over. And besides - if you're doing this just to pick up a chick, I would advise against that. Building a relationship purely on political ideology is never a good thing.

I imagine a response to the history of Communist theory would be retorted with "Oh yeah, that book Hitler wrote in prison..."

And the girl wasn't being spoken to because I wanted to "pick her up" it was simply she started complaining to me about the Government cuts taking her job and I blamed it on capitalism, which meant to her I was a fascist-communist...

[Jimmie Higgins]

On a one-on-one level it depends on the person. You can try and explain things and some will just say, "Oh I didn't know all that" or others will just refuse to believe you because you are one opinion and she can go online and or turn on the radio and find 20 nut-jobs saying that socialism=fascism.

In the end, the ruling class influence a lot of "common sense" ideas about the world - but only if people don't come into contact with anything that contradicts the ruling class line. Think about war propaganda - people supported Vietnam for a long time becuase there simply was no alternative information widely available that challeneged what the governmnet said: "The US was defending the population against a small group of fanatical communist plotters and outside-agitators". What changed this? The tet offensive where everyone saw that the population really supported the "communists" - stories coming home about atrocities by "our boys" - and other cracks forming in the US propaganda.

It's the same with radicals. We will always be marginalized as the "default" position in mainstream politics. We will have our ideas defined by our enemies basically until we are so numerous that the vast majority of the population knows radicals first-hand and out slogans and ideas are ubiquitous.

So the best way to combat these ruling class myths is by putting our ideas into practice by building working class radicalism and workplace and community fight-back. There have been so many times when I have worked with people in coalitions and weeks or moths later they say: "you know, before I got to know people like you I thought anarchists were the same as terrorists or socialism was just for white people". So I don't think we would ever be able to convince people 1-on-1 just by talking to them, but when we struggle alongside people and put our activism where our mouth is, then they will see that we (not to be too smug about it) are more often correct about politics than the politicians and that our strategies are better than the ones offered by liberals or union bureaucrats.

[RadioRaheem84]

US propaganda has severely impaired political discourse in this country. It's really sad.

[727Goon]

Tip #1: Never talk to a girl in a bar.

Worst advice ever.

[AK]

She probably watches Glenn Beck. Cut Glenn Beck out of the picture and you'll get cool commie girls.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Macktivism thread #23 of 2010.

[727Goon]

Who dates people because of their political preference anyways? If you only date other communists, that's like some religious bullshit.

[durhamleft]

Who dates people because of their political preference anyways? If you only date other communists, that's like some religious bullshit.

I think I'd have difficulty dating anyone who disagreed with me in any way whatsoever.

[Nachie]

Tip #1: Never talk to a girl in a bar.

Tip #2: Never try teaching politics to a girl in a bar.

That should do for now. :thumbup1:
Are you even allowed in bars?

[RadioRaheem84]

Who dates people because of their political preference anyways? If you only date other communists, that's like some religious bullshit.

Oh come on would you date a rabid right winger? I doubt you guys would last very long.

[Devrim]

she was absolutely adamant that Mussolini was a communist, and even more adamant that communism was a branch of fascism, her friend simply didnt know what these terms meant.

It is true that Mussolini had been a socialist, and had been on the left wing of the PSI until his expulsion during WWI.

Devrim

[Raúl Duke]

Tip #2: Never try teaching politics to a girl in a bar.

This...

although I've somehow got involved in discussing politics with a girl, who was the bartender, at a bar. I don't recall that I started it though.

[727Goon]

Oh come on would you date a rabid right winger? I doubt you guys would last very long.

No but every girl I've dated except one was apolitical.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Are you even allowed in bars?

When you have friends who are veterans, it's pretty easy getting into bars.

[durhamleft]

This...

although I've somehow got involved in discussing politics with a girl, who was the bartender, at a bar. I don't recall that I started it though.

Glad I'm not the only one who has given it an effort

[this is an invasion]

When you have friends who are veterans, it's pretty easy getting into bars.

oh HO!

[Shokaract]

I imagine a response to the history of Communist theory would be retorted with "Oh yeah, that book Hitler wrote in prison..."

And the girl wasn't being spoken to because I wanted to "pick her up" it was simply she started complaining to me about the Government cuts taking her job and I blamed it on capitalism, which meant to her I was a fascist-communist...

Ow, my brain. I'd think that people who hate Communism would know that job security is better under a self-professed socialist government..

I think this kind of misinformation is also a testament to the success of anti-communist education/media. It's very frustrating.

[Comrade Gwydion]

No but every girl I've dated except one was apolitical.

Apolitical is also a political choice. A very serious and damaging one.

EDIT:
I think I like moderate right-wingers better then A-political ones.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

I dated a women, and during the getting to know her faze, I found that she hated asians, blacks, hispanics, condoned herself being under paid at work, she said "I should be paid $2.81 hr because I didn't get an education"I've ALWAYS said this, and that is, the left doesn't really know what they are dealing with. we are dealing with the most politically Illiterate population in the world. I can give example after example, but what good is it, you still have a huge segment of the left that will make excuse after excuse slaves.

[scarletghoul]

americans are by far the most ignorant and backwards people on the planet. completely brainwashed. My heart goes out to all of you comrades stuck in that disgusting reactionary pigsty.

But just remember, although the Amerikan revolution is the most difficult one in the world, the prize it perhaps the best imaginable

[RadioRaheem84]

americans are by far the most ignorant and backwards people on the planet. completely brainwashed. My heart goes out to all of you comrades stuck in that disgusting reactionary pigsty.

But just remember, although the Amerikan revolution is the most difficult one in the world, the prize it perhaps the best imaginable

A bit harsh, no? We were and are subjected to the most mind twisting propaganda campaign in the history of class struggle! This nation is rife with propaganda from cradle to the grave. Not even the capitalist class can seem to get a grip to pull the reigns in it's become so strong. It's a part of our psyche and to break it from the collective conscious would mean to literally knock down everthing people have ever known about their lives. It's become an emotional grasp on reality. It would be heavily scarring for some ppl so they willfully, now desperately, cling to propaganda. It's become almost like an opiate to keep their hopes and dreams to strike it big alive. Without it you're condeming them to a life of mediocrity in their eyes. They end up hating the idea of equality. They end up liking and accepting the canard that we're evil people that do not deserve equality and a better world.

The United States is the land of doublespeak. Americans are not innocent in my book so I am not appologizing for them. They willfully eat up the propaganda so they can fulfil their quest to achieve the dream. If it meant equality for all in exchange for them giving up that dream of owning a yacht, many would swat that proposal down. The media reinforces this belief as liberty. We justify wars this way!

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

americans are by far the most ignorant and backwards people on the planet. completely brainwashed. My heart goes out to all of you comrades stuck in that disgusting reactionary pigsty.

But just remember, although the Amerikan revolution is the most difficult one in the world, the prize it perhaps the best imaginable



Comrade, thank you, you are absolutely right!!!!!76,000 people will guzzle beer in 15 degree weather for a football game but won't turn out for a rally against high home heating costs. 45 people turned out for a union meeting out of 3,500 members.and in another thread, 25,00 showed up at 5AM to wath a chicken wing eating contest and a pep rally.when I asked some members why they didn't show up, their response was "fuck the union". this happened in my union. thousands show up for an "ice cream eating contest" but under 75 showed up for a rally in front of blue cross for universal hearth care.untill the "left" stops coming down to the level of these morons for the purpose of getting into the good graces of the "workers" and being accepted, and in the process they reduce themselves to the level of a social democrat, untill then they will be part of the problem and cease being a solution. I once said to one of these "revolutionary parties" lol lol the demand your group is making at demos are rediculous ie "full empolyment,more jobs, AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE LOL LOL, we are at a stage of producing an abundance for all, the demand should be more free time = true freedom,we have the ability to have people labor less and still produce an abundance for all etc. they said, THAT WILL SCARE PEOPLE AWAY LOL LOL. these groups are not revolutionary, they are a bunch of social democrats that have dumbed themselves down to accomodate the stupidity of the people. untill these groups start to put forward REAL revolutionary demands, they will be view as nothing but a bunch of social democrats. nothing more nothing less.

[RadioRaheem84]

How on Earth can the prospect of labouring less yet producing more be a frightening concept to people? Look people are scared because they're afraid to take the risk to lose everything to gain everything. You're talking about challenging the most powerful ruling class in history. That's intimidating. Most just drop out of the fight, reform or sumbit to power.

[durhamleft]

The bar was in the UK, if it was in America I imagine the lady would have pulled a pistol and shot me in the bollocks.

[NecroCommie]

No but every girl I've dated except one was apolitical.
No one is apolitical. They might just falsely equate all politics with parliamentarism.

I have never ever encountered a person without strong political views.

[mollymae]

Apolitical is also a political choice. A very serious and damaging one.


I can't tell you how many times I've known people who purposefully avoid all things political because they "don't like it", but then say that they don't trust the government. I don't either of course, but wouldn't you think that if you were really serious about not trusting the government, you wouldn't stay willfully ignorant to some of the things they're doing? :confused:

[RadioRaheem84]

I hate it when my friends say that politics isn't "their thing" as if it has no effect on their life. It's propaganda to propose that one can live a life seperated from politics in a capitalist society.

[727Goon]

Apolitical is also a political choice. A very serious and damaging one.

EDIT:
I think I like moderate right-wingers better then A-political ones.

Well apathetic then? It wasnt a conscious decision, they just didnt really have time for politics I guess.

[mollymae]

I hate it when my friends say that politics isn't "their thing" as if it has no effect on their life. It's propaganda to propose that one can live a life seperated from politics in a capitalist society.

I know one who always says "You can keep your politics, I'm just going to live my life."
:rolleyes:

[mollymae]

If anyone wants an exercise in scary straight-up political ignorance, check out the politics section of Yahoo! Answers US.

http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylt=AkgxVuMCJ275el3QUwsHiOLsy6IX;_ylv=3?sid =396545450

[Barry Lyndon]

It's obvious why there has been such a relentless propaganda campaign over the last 100 years to make capitalism the only possible option in the minds of tens of millions of Americans-if there were ever to be a socialist revolution in the United States, or even a shift to social democracy, capitalism as a global system would be majorly fucked. If the flag of revolution went up in the US, there would be nowhere for the American gusanos to run to.

The United States, particularly since the end of World War II, is the world capital of counterrevolution, brutally attacking revolutionary and reformist governments in Greece, Korea, Iran, Guatemala, Cuba, Guyana, Indonesia, Vietnam, Dominican Republic, Chile, Angola, Mozambique, East Timor, El Salvador, Afghanistan, Nicaragua, Haiti, Venezuela, Honduras. The 1960's were the one time after World War II that there were significant revolutionary forces within the US that might have come to the rescue of the Third World, but COINTELPRO took care of that.

With the radical Left physically crushed since the 1970's, the media, the churches, the so-called education system have been determined to bury every last semblance of political radicalism, to demonize, discredit it, churn out countless movies showing the 60's as some immature childish excursion(a la Forrest Gump-God how I fucking hate that movie), witchunt every contemporary political figure that has even residual ties to it(Obama-Bill Ayers). It has succeeded- we live in a country and an era where W.B. Yeats described as one where "The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity".

Probably the worst experience I recently had was when the victorious Chicago Blackhawks returned to their home city this June, and TWO MILLION people showed up to greet them at a parade in the middle of the workday! It hit particularly hard because just a month before I had been excited that a immigrants rights march I had been at attracted over 20,000 people-to see the huge gap between the attendance at both events made me feel incredibly hopeless. It showed to me that, if they REALLY wanted to, Americans could get off their ASSES and rally against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, in outrage over the BP oil spill, against the fascist Arizona law, against the Gaza flotilla raid. That all the excuses- we work too much, we don't have time, blah blah blah are all LIES. They just don't give a FUCK.

[Barry Lyndon]

If anyone wants an exercise in scary straight-up political ignorance, check out the politics section of Yahoo! Answers US.

http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylt=AkgxVuMCJ275el3QUwsHiOLsy6IX;_ylv=3?sid =396545450

Example: 'How is depicting President Obama with a bone through his nose, half naked, holding a tribal staff, like some African witch doctor racist? Isn't it paying a compliment to his Kenyan heritage?'

[mollymae]

Example: 'How is depicting President Obama with a bone through his nose, half naked, holding a tribal staff, like some African witch doctor racist? Isn't it paying a compliment to his Kenyan heritage?'

Exactly.. I am always forgetting that people like that really do exist.

[fa2991]

Anyone else ever been told

"Yeah? Well Hitler was a National Socialist, so fuck Marx!"

[GPDP]

Congratulations, this thread has depressed the fuck out of me.

[Glenn Beck]

I like to pick up women at bars and then just spend the whole night telling them all about Trotsky. I haven't quite got the hang of this whole deep entryism business but I keep working at it.

[RadioRaheem84]

Congratulations, this thread has depressed the fuck out of me.


My gf's father, whom I admire very much and is a good person, has turned rabidly right wing. He always use to be a pretty apolitical guy with the average conservative views attributed to any small business owner, but since the crash of 08, he has been watching Beck, reading Gingrich and listening to O'Reilly. The right wing machine has been assaulting all of his senses!

It's not funny to me because I see the mania it's creating in what I once thought was a pretty rational guy. He is angry and talks about the impending revolution in this country. It's so sad to see him succumb to the most ignorant of political misconceptions and disinformation.

Guys, this isn't funny. This is harmful stuff that might soon become really serious, especially with another dip coming in the next year or so.

I want to have hope for the American people, but I really just do not see it. They say that the Russia was ten times worse, but I just cannot see it where there is a concerted multi-billion dollar effort to manipulate every facet of history into meeting particular class interests. The bombardment is too much and I think that we might be on the losing side if we do not at least attempt to mobilize.

Yet, how are we even supposed to have a popular front, if even progressives and liberals consider us the "pariah" of the "left".

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

How on Earth can the prospect of labouring less yet producing more be a frightening concept to people? Look people are scared because they're afraid to take the risk to lose everything to gain everything. You're talking about challenging the most powerful ruling class in history. That's intimidating. Most just drop out of the fight, reform or sumbit to power.



that's right, and that's what revolution is all about. and that's why the left gets involved in this reformist bullshit with their refomist slogans, ie jobs, running candidates, social programs, for the purpose of ligitimizing themselves,to be accepted by the people. they have NO IDEA what Marxism is. they want to sing this working class hero bullshit. let me tell you what work is......it's detrimental, an anathema to the mind and body. And the people, rightfully so, disdain it.but the so called "left" want you to be proud of it, and they want to provide more of it for you.you know what that means? more work place injuries, more work place I'llness, less time with their families,less time for themselves,more stress and the deaths that come with it. yeah, real marxists.

[DunyaGongrenKomRevolyutsi]

You can't win over some people with words, but some of the most right-wing people can find it in themselves, if they have economic issues at work and have to fight their bosses with their other workers, no matter what they have told you before.

Some people are obviously just scabs and you have to find out in due time.

[RadioRaheem84]

The people have been so indoctrinated that they even want our highest form of dissent; art.

No one wants to see the socialist critique of Steig Larsson's book. They just see good mystery book about weird rich people. The American remake will take away all socialist elements that the Swedish film didn't already tone down. You try to bring this up and people shout you down even though the man was a blatant Trot.

They did it to Sinclair's book Oil! and instead created a personal story about greed in There Will Be Blood.

V for Vendetta, a liberal wet dream movie, is loved by young punk right-libertarians for being "anti-socialist", when it was written by an anarchist (don't how strong of one though) and was intended to be a scathing critique of Thatcherism.

George Orwell's books have no meaning anymore other than they were criticizing the USSR and thus "socialism" in general.

Now capital is what brings liberty and democracy, not socialism.

What is wrong with these people? Why can't they just like their own literature, movies, etc? They have Ayn Rand. Why do they have to fuck up the meaning to great books, movies and even music to fit their delusional alternate universe where capitalism is is freedom and socialism is slavery!?

Sorry. Rant over.

[Jimmie Higgins]

The people have been so indoctrinated that they even want our highest form of dissent; art.

No one wants to see the socialist critique of Steig Larsson's book. They just see good mystery book about weird rich people. The American remake will take away all socialist elements that the Swedish film didn't already tone down. You try to bring this up and people shout you down even though the man was a blatant Trot.

They did it to Sinclair's book Oil! and instead created a personal story about greed in There Will Be Blood.

V for Vendetta, a liberal wet dream movie, is loved by young punk right-libertarians for being "anti-socialist", when it was written by an anarchist (don't how strong of one though) and was intended to be a scathing critique of Thatcherism.

George Orwell's books have no meaning anymore other than they were criticizing the USSR and thus "socialism" in general.

Now capital is what brings liberty and democracy, not socialism.

What is wrong with these people? Why can't they just like their own literature, movies, etc? They have Ayn Rand. Why do they have to fuck up the meaning to great books, movies and even music to fit their delusional alternate universe where capitalism is is freedom and socialism is slavery!?

Sorry. Rant over.

I just saw the movie version of "Breakfast of Champions" this weekend. I love most Vonnegut books and that one has a lot about how crazy US society is (at least that was my reading - oh and spoilers below:D):

That the most clever women use their cleverness to try and make themselves seem dumb, agreeable, and unthreatening to men.

That the only thing that separates and insane person from an artistic genious is that the genius is admired by rich people.

That if you have some money then your life is perfect even if you are mentally unstable and your wife killed herself.

That people are treated based on how much (or little) money they have and the color of their skin.

Etc.

But in the movie, the main character's wife is alive, just depressed; the main character reconciles with his gay (gay and cross-dressing in the book, but "gay" is never even said out-loud in the movie) son while in the book he attacks his son as part of a long racist rampage he goes on; in the book, the main character goes on a killing spree and targets black people - in the movie he just kinda flips out and he tries to shoot one black person but not because of his race.

One theme I took from the book was that people adapt to their situation most of the time and since we live in a crazy society, people tend to act crazy. In the movie, there is no critique of society and so the result is the sense that people are just crazy because they are and maybe because they watch too much TV - but it's ok because the nuclear family can bring back sanity. The movie literally ends with the family hugging before the main character is taken to jail. This movie wasn't so much an adaptation of the book, it was like a direct rejection of what the book put forward.

Edit: Sorry, this was a big detour from the topic.

[durhamleft]

Does Obama know the secret handshake of the Black Panthers?
13 minutes ago - 4 days left to answer.


:'( :'( :'(

[durhamleft]

Does Obama hate Oil because Oil is Black and it reminds him that he is Black?
:mad: